There's plenty of blame to be shared on the lack of medical supplies

2,531 Views | 74 Replies | Last: 3 days ago by GBear4Life
Cal88
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calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.
OaktownBear
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Cal88 said:

calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.
I'm not sure what this exactly means. Americans are known as pretty homogenous politically when compared to, for example, Europe. There is a lot of continuity across all administrations generally, including the Trump administration. There are also a lot of differences.

On fiscal policy, the main difference between Republicans and Democrats is shifting a few percentage points of tax between middle class and wealthy.

It is rewriting history, though to keep saying TARP ballooned the deficit when it didn't.
Cal88
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OaktownBear said:

Cal88 said:

calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.
I'm not sure what this exactly means. Americans are known as pretty homogenous politically when compared to, for example, Europe. There is a lot of continuity across all administrations generally, including the Trump administration. There are also a lot of differences.

On fiscal policy, the main difference between Republicans and Democrats is shifting a few percentage points of tax between middle class and wealthy.

It is rewriting history, though to keep saying TARP ballooned the deficit when it didn't.

TARP is a very small part of the bailout picture. The deficit picture is not very clear, because a lot of it is held in the Fed, and Treasury under other debt programs and structures that aren't counted in the national debt, here is the real picture:




https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/12/real-size-bailout-treasury-fed/
OaktownBear
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Cal88 said:

OaktownBear said:

Cal88 said:

calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.
I'm not sure what this exactly means. Americans are known as pretty homogenous politically when compared to, for example, Europe. There is a lot of continuity across all administrations generally, including the Trump administration. There are also a lot of differences.

On fiscal policy, the main difference between Republicans and Democrats is shifting a few percentage points of tax between middle class and wealthy.

It is rewriting history, though to keep saying TARP ballooned the deficit when it didn't.

TARP is a very small part of the bailout picture. The deficit picture is not very clear, because a lot of it is held in the Fed, and Treasury under other debt programs and structures that aren't counted in the national debt, here is the real picture:




https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2009/12/real-size-bailout-treasury-fed/



"Figures current as of October 31, 2009"
Cal88
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Which is one year after the bailout. That's like dismissing figures about WW2 from 1946, saying they're not up to date.

The point here is that TARP was a very small part of the 2008 bailout picture, as illustrated by this graph from 2009.
OaktownBear
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Cal88 said:

Which is one year after the bailout. That's like dismissing figures about WW2 from 1946, saying they're not up to date.

The point here is that TARP was a very small part of the 2008 bailout picture, as illustrated by this graph from 2009.
But they are out of date because most of the funds that were recouped came in after that point. It is not at the end, it is in the middle. It is like dismissing a statement from 1942 indicating German military success being used to demonstrate Germany won WWII.
Cal88
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Most of the funds were rolled back into further debt structures that are not reflected in the official debt picture, or to use a popular metaphor, the can was kicked down the road through QE and further Fed drawings.

As well, one problem with your post above is that TARP was a very small part of the bailout, less than 10%, so reducing the debt picture to the TARP situation blurs that picture.
Quote:


It is rewriting history, though to keep saying TARP ballooned the deficit when it didn't.

In any case, this would be a good subject to revisit in its own thread.
dajo9
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Cal88 said:

calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.


Shorter Cal88

I lie to show "continuity"
An old white dude
GBear4Life
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sonofabear51 said:

tRump needs to learn how to apologize and actually take blame and responsibility. He has yet to do so. Done When that happens, maybe something will get done.
Apologize for what?
calpoly
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Cal88 said:

calpoly said:

Cal88 said:

sycasey said:

Here's the thing: I would bet a lot of money that if a pandemic like this got started with Obama as President, he would have already gotten started with mass production of medical supplies. It probably would have already been going on for a month now at least.

Obama listened to experts.
On January 14th, this is what the experts at the WHO were saying:



The WHO also only declared that covid19 was a world pandemic on March 11. Three months after the epidemic started growing in Wuhan.

The experts in the US have also been saying that masks were ineffective for the general public, a notion that's laughable to any schoolboy in east Asia.


When Obama was faced with a serious crisis in 2008, the experts in his administration blew out the debt and bailed out their buddies at the taxpayers expense, and no one was ever prosecuted.

Obama expanded GWB's military interventionism in the middle east by pushing for regime change and actively feeding wars in Libya, Syria and Yemen, as well as overseeing the overthrow of democratically elected government in Central America (Honduras), which fed the migrant crisis.

Obama is a slick politician who can do no wrong according to his constituency, the spell he has on his constituency is very similar to the one Reagan had on his base. I'm not sure that people like Joe Biden, Susan Rice, Rahm Emmanuel would have been on top of this crisis.
Please do not try to rewrite history. The crisis started in 2008 when bush was president. In addition, it was bush that started the bailout of the buddies on Oct 3, 2008.

And Obama that finished that job, bailing out his set of buddies. His cabinet was staffed by Citigroup, which was one of the main recipients of the bailout.

https://newrepublic.com/article/137798/important-wikileaks-revelation-isnt-hillary-clinton

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2009/12/13/obamas-big-sellout-president-has-packed-his-economic-team-wall-street-insiders

It's not about "rewriting history", it's about seeing that there is an awful lot of continuity between Obama and Bush both in terms of domestic and foreign policy, something that is pretty evident as long as you're able to see beyond the naive partisan divide.
And yet your continue to justify tRump with your hatred of President Obama.
chazzed
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You must have been in an isolated cave for the last two to three years, so I'll give you the cut-and-dried version: For putting thousands and thousands of lives at risk, through various miscalculations and falsehoods. (Also, his mishandling will lead to more economic pain than was necessary) Got it? Great.
Unit2Sucks
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"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?

smh
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> I'll make all you RNWJs a deal - if we can have Obama back as President, you can blame him for everything. Until such time as Obama is president, this is all on Trump and he needs to fix it.

me too, thanks U2. had to lookup RNWJ though. f.b.o. others, it stands for right wing nut jobs.

inline jpg dint work soooo, shared from salt lake city tribune's editorial by Pat Bagley, a link:
https://www.sltrib.com/opinion/bagley/2020/03/25/bagley-cartoon-final

alt clickable,,
https://www.sltrib.com/resizer/XwYJdNoWNsAYPSGKUx6rYIFP2tE=/0x600/smart/filters:quality(86)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-sltrib.s3.amazonaws.com/public/5U32KNC5OBGG3HLZI3VYAJGTH4.jpg
"Doctor Horrible's Singalong Blog" last words: Don't worry, Captain Hammer will save us
bearlyamazing
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Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
Go!Bears
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bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
It's funny how your sources are gospel and any dissenting source is bull****ico.
OaktownBear
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bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
Unit2Sucks
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OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
As if there was ever a doubt what the motivations were.

My in-laws are Fox News Trumpists and don't blame Trump for his poor response or his numerous well documented lies. They recently told me - "at least it's not as bad as Italy!" I asked them what they would say if we ended up worse than Italy (which at the time had about 2k dead) and they didn't have an answer. We all know the answer though - the goal posts will move far enough to define Trump's response as a success. For the republican party, personal responsiblity will always be a thing that other people should have but not one that they themselves demonstrate. And they voted for the perfect embodiment of it.
bearlyamazing
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The hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of so many of you people is stunning. The right is stupid and evil and the left has all the answers and are virtuous in your warped pathetic little bubbles.
sycasey
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OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
OaktownBear
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bearlyamazing said:

The hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of so many of you people is stunning. The right is stupid and evil and the left has all the answers and are virtuous in your warped pathetic little bubbles.
Hypocrisy is thinking everyone outside your bubble are in bubbles and you aren't.
Unit2Sucks
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bearlyamazing said:

The hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of so many of you people is stunning. The right is stupid and evil and the left has all the answers and are virtuous in your warped pathetic little bubbles.
You probably think I'm some Soros worshipping liberal who is incapable of telling the truth, but please believe this because it is true: I find your posts extremely entertaining. I find your utter lack of self-awareness and the unintentional irony in everything you post to make it worth the price of engagement.

Whose fault is a pandemic in 2020 that the US is bungling worse than countries with far fewer resources? According to you, clearly Obama who left office almost 3+ years ago.

Whose fault was an epidemic 3 months into Obama's first term? According to you, clearly not Bush who had been in office for 8 years.

But please do lecture us about hypocrisy and narrowmindedness. Those words describe everyone but you.
OaktownBear
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bearlyamazing said:

The hypocrisy and narrowmindedness of so many of you people is stunning. The right is stupid and evil and the left has all the answers and are virtuous in your warped pathetic little bubbles.
So according to you, Obama is responsible for not delivering a stockpile of masks as of January 2017.

I haven't seen you say one thing that you think Trump is responsible for. How about we start there? What do you think Trump is responsible for? Name some things. Because it appears that to you the most flagrant mistake is not stockpiling masks 4 years ago, since you aren't naming anything else.

The title of the thread you chose talked about there being plenty of blame to go around. So, send some around. So far you've only blamed one guy for one thing 4 years ago.

If you are only going to specify mistakes Obama made 4 years ago, you aren't neutral and are not to be taken seriously.

You give me a reasonable list of mistakes Trump is responsible for and I'll say Obama should have had masks in January 2017. Otherwise, forget it.
Go!Bears
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OaktownBear said:


Because it appears that to you the most flagrant mistake is not stockpiling masks 4 years ago,
It is worse than this. I tracked back and read the originally cited stories in Bloomberg & LA Times, something I doubt OP did.

"The national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn't build back the supply." Bloomberg

"After 9/11, the federal Hospital Preparedness Program was created in 2002 to help hospitals plan for public health emergencies and terrorist attacks.

But as time passed, the program was steadily cut. In 2007, Congress trimmed $44 million from the program's budget. In 2014, lawmakers cut $120 million." LA Times

What Obama is being blamed for is fault that may well lie with the Congress. Anyone remember who was running the Congress after the 2010 midterms?

Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
As if there was ever a doubt what the motivations were.

My in-laws are Fox News Trumpists and don't blame Trump for his poor response or his numerous well documented lies. They recently told me - "at least it's not as bad as Italy!" I asked them what they would say if we ended up worse than Italy (which at the time had about 2k dead) and they didn't have an answer. We all know the answer though - the goal posts will move far enough to define Trump's response as a success. For the republican party, personal responsiblity will always be a thing that other people should have but not one that they themselves demonstrate. And they voted for the perfect embodiment of it.

Do you speak to your in-laws often? Because we just passed Italy! (number of cases)

Next, we can place the goal posts at "number of fatalities". After we pass then there (hopefully we won't), they can get to a not unreasonable "per capita" argument.

Do you all get together at the holidays? How does that go?
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
As if there was ever a doubt what the motivations were.

My in-laws are Fox News Trumpists and don't blame Trump for his poor response or his numerous well documented lies. They recently told me - "at least it's not as bad as Italy!" I asked them what they would say if we ended up worse than Italy (which at the time had about 2k dead) and they didn't have an answer. We all know the answer though - the goal posts will move far enough to define Trump's response as a success. For the republican party, personal responsiblity will always be a thing that other people should have but not one that they themselves demonstrate. And they voted for the perfect embodiment of it.

Do you speak to your in-laws often? Because we just passed Italy! (number of cases)

Next, we can place the goal posts at "number of fatalities". After we pass then there (hopefully we won't), they can get to a not unreasonable "per capita" argument.

Do you all get together at the holidays? How does that go?
Not that often. They are nice people but Fox News has done a lot of damage to their worldview and they no longer have a firm grasp of reality. I would consider them moderate Republicans by the way, not braindead MAGAstani. For example, Hannity "isn't their favorite". They were Bill O'Reilly fans and I think they like Tucker Carlson now (although now that he criticizes Trump on occasion, it's hard to say). They think Jeff Dunham is funny, in case that helps paint the picture. The holidays are entertaining, they are mostly like any other grandparents who dote on their grandchildren. We sometimes have spirited discussions which drives my wife nuts. They absolutely hate when I ask them to apply their stated ideology to their own personal situation or that of their family (eg they hate Obamacare but have children on Obamacare).

I completely agree with your description of how the goal post moving will occur. I assume when we surpass Italy in death toll per capita they will say China and/or Obama.

They believe quite strongly in personal responsibility but never apply it to Republican politicians (or their children). In that sense they couldn't be more Republican.
Big C
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Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
As if there was ever a doubt what the motivations were.

My in-laws are Fox News Trumpists and don't blame Trump for his poor response or his numerous well documented lies. They recently told me - "at least it's not as bad as Italy!" I asked them what they would say if we ended up worse than Italy (which at the time had about 2k dead) and they didn't have an answer. We all know the answer though - the goal posts will move far enough to define Trump's response as a success. For the republican party, personal responsiblity will always be a thing that other people should have but not one that they themselves demonstrate. And they voted for the perfect embodiment of it.

Do you speak to your in-laws often? Because we just passed Italy! (number of cases)

Next, we can place the goal posts at "number of fatalities". After we pass then there (hopefully we won't), they can get to a not unreasonable "per capita" argument.

Do you all get together at the holidays? How does that go?
Not that often. They are nice people but Fox News has done a lot of damage to their worldview and they no longer have a firm grasp of reality. I would consider them moderate Republicans by the way, not braindead MAGAstani. For example, Hannity "isn't their favorite". They were Bill O'Reilly fans and I think they like Tucker Carlson now (although now that he criticizes Trump on occasion, it's hard to say). They think Jeff Dunham is funny, in case that helps paint the picture. The holidays are entertaining, they are mostly like any other grandparents who dote on their grandchildren. We sometimes have spirited discussions which drives my wife nuts. They absolutely hate when I ask them to apply their stated ideology to their own personal situation or that of their family (eg they hate Obamacare but have children on Obamacare).

I completely agree with your description of how the goal post moving will occur. I assume when we surpass Italy in death toll per capita they will say China and/or Obama.

They believe quite strongly in personal responsibility but never apply it to Republican politicians (or their children). In that sense they couldn't be more Republican.


Well, we just passed China, too, in number of reported cases. They only had about an hour-long window to make that argument. In terms of fatalities, Italy passed China last week, IIRC.

Your in-laws sound like semi-reasonable people. Aren't they at least repulsed by Trump's general behavior? I'm in a pretty thick bubble: I have never talked to an admitted Trump supporter. I'm sure there are some in my "not poor" East Bay community, but they won't cop to it.

My in-laws are Dem, but used to live in a solidly conservative retirement community in Florida. When we would visit, my father-in-law used to try and get me to go fishing with him and his buddies, just so I could hear the s*** that they would say (which drove him crazy). I never took him up on it.
Unit2Sucks
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Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

Big C said:

Unit2Sucks said:

OaktownBear said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
And now the motivation for the thread comes out as expected. Passing the buck.

I'm really mad at Tom Holmoe for not having an adequate back up QB last year.
As if there was ever a doubt what the motivations were.

My in-laws are Fox News Trumpists and don't blame Trump for his poor response or his numerous well documented lies. They recently told me - "at least it's not as bad as Italy!" I asked them what they would say if we ended up worse than Italy (which at the time had about 2k dead) and they didn't have an answer. We all know the answer though - the goal posts will move far enough to define Trump's response as a success. For the republican party, personal responsiblity will always be a thing that other people should have but not one that they themselves demonstrate. And they voted for the perfect embodiment of it.

Do you speak to your in-laws often? Because we just passed Italy! (number of cases)

Next, we can place the goal posts at "number of fatalities". After we pass then there (hopefully we won't), they can get to a not unreasonable "per capita" argument.

Do you all get together at the holidays? How does that go?
Not that often. They are nice people but Fox News has done a lot of damage to their worldview and they no longer have a firm grasp of reality. I would consider them moderate Republicans by the way, not braindead MAGAstani. For example, Hannity "isn't their favorite". They were Bill O'Reilly fans and I think they like Tucker Carlson now (although now that he criticizes Trump on occasion, it's hard to say). They think Jeff Dunham is funny, in case that helps paint the picture. The holidays are entertaining, they are mostly like any other grandparents who dote on their grandchildren. We sometimes have spirited discussions which drives my wife nuts. They absolutely hate when I ask them to apply their stated ideology to their own personal situation or that of their family (eg they hate Obamacare but have children on Obamacare).

I completely agree with your description of how the goal post moving will occur. I assume when we surpass Italy in death toll per capita they will say China and/or Obama.

They believe quite strongly in personal responsibility but never apply it to Republican politicians (or their children). In that sense they couldn't be more Republican.


Well, we just passed China, too, in number of reported cases. They only had about an hour-long window to make that argument. In terms of fatalities, Italy passed China last week, IIRC.

Your in-laws sound like semi-reasonable people. Aren't they at least repulsed by Trump's general behavior? I'm in a pretty thick bubble: I have never talked to an admitted Trump supporter. I'm sure there are some in my "not poor" East Bay community, but they won't cop to it.

My in-laws are Dem, but used to live in a solidly conservative retirement community in Florida. When we would visit, my father-in-law used to try and get me to go fishing with him and his buddies, just so I could hear the s*** that they would say (which drove him crazy). I never took him up on it.
Yes, I didn't mean to say they would claim China had more but that it was China's fault or Obama's fault.

For what it's worth I think China has vastly under-reported cases, but I think the US has as well given how low our testing capacity continues to be. Lots of unreported deaths worldwide due to lack of posthumous testing, but that's less of an issue in the US.

They don't like to talk about whether they are repulsed by Trump's behavior so we don't bother going there. They generally toe the line on standard Fox News talking points (global warming is a hoax, regulations are bad, Obamacare is bad, low taxes for corporations are good and will trickle down despite the fact that so much ended up in stock buybacks, PC culture is the real problem, illegal immigration is a real problem, unions are bad (despite the fact that both are members of unions and benefit from collective bargaining and pensions), etc.). They are pretty much garden variety Southern California Republicans.

It drives my wife crazy but as a center right American who has utter disdain for what the republican party has morphed into, I find it fascinating.
bearlyamazing
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What is not abundantly clear from my first statement? "Not to excuse the Trump administration for not acting on it's part to correct the problem earlier but it's a long preexisting problem."

Of course Trump's done plenty of things wrong. He talks off the cuff too often. His desperate desire to help instill a sense of optimism that we can get through this leads him to not be as measured as he should be. He often tweets childishly. He should've evaluated the shortcomings of the prior administration and prepared for another pandemic.There's no excuse to have not done so. He should've taken the threat more seriously at an earlier date and taken proper measures. He's done all kinds of things wrong.

My point, which is eminently easy to understand if you don't have a raging bias, is that disastrous numbers occurred under the Obama admin, too, that are far worse than our numbers currently and despite that, they did little to nothing to prepare us for the next crises so maybe, just maybe, all the collective rage falling on Trump should have a little perspective and understand that he's not the only one who's made mistakes.

I'm not saying absolve him. I'm not saying he's done everything right. But he has taken extraordinary steps to bring private business and enterprise into the equation, cutting red tape, fast tracking drug trials and alternative means of production of needed supplies, thinking out of the box for other fast track solutions to our problems and that the left collectively raging at what a moron he is isn't helpful. The right didn't collectively rage at Obama, though there were certainly detractors on a much smaller scale, and the left in general put aside their hatred and disdain for Bush after 9/11. Is that so much to ask or does the upcoming election and the opportunity to get him into office trump everything else?
Tedhead94
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bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
Probably not . But it might have been developed using the wisdom garnered from the previous event(s).

Might be a good idea to learn from previous failures so that you don't make the same mistakes.

Come to think of it, that may be the reason for the playbook in the first place.
sycasey
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bearlyamazing said:

My point, which is eminently easy to understand if you don't have a raging bias, is that disastrous numbers occurred under the Obama admin, too, that are far worse than our numbers currently
They didn't, though. The potential epidemics that occurred under Obama were largely contained with minimal disruption. Or did I miss when everyone had to shelter-in-place during the Obama years?

If you want to say that the numbers of fatalities were much worse for H1N1 than for COVID-19, well, that's like saying a QB who threw four interceptions in the first game didn't have as many as the previous QB who threw 10 interceptions for all of last season. We're still in the early stages of this outbreak. The early results don't look good.

Could Obama have replenished the supplies? Yes, he probably should have. But there was plenty of time for Trump to do it. He also had months of warning that COVID might be coming to America soon and could have gotten rolling a lot sooner on replenishing supplies. As far as I can tell, he's barely done anything about that even now and the pandemic is already spreading rapidly here. I contend that Obama's quick response to previous pandemics indicates that he would have done those things by now.
bearlyamazing
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sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

My point, which is eminently easy to understand if you don't have a raging bias, is that disastrous numbers occurred under the Obama admin, too, that are far worse than our numbers currently
They didn't, though. The potential epidemics that occurred under Obama were largely contained with minimal disruption. Or did I miss when everyone had to shelter-in-place during the Obama years?

If you want to say that the numbers of fatalities were much worse for H1N1 than for COVID-19, well, that's like saying a QB who threw four interceptions in the first game didn't have as many as the previous QB who threw 10 interceptions for all of last season. We're still in the early stages of this outbreak. The early results don't look good.
Exactly what about 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic tells you the Obama administration handled things well themselves? Largely contained? The left is going ape**** over the current 80k cases. Get real, man.
sycasey
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bearlyamazing said:

sycasey said:

bearlyamazing said:

My point, which is eminently easy to understand if you don't have a raging bias, is that disastrous numbers occurred under the Obama admin, too, that are far worse than our numbers currently
They didn't, though. The potential epidemics that occurred under Obama were largely contained with minimal disruption. Or did I miss when everyone had to shelter-in-place during the Obama years?

If you want to say that the numbers of fatalities were much worse for H1N1 than for COVID-19, well, that's like saying a QB who threw four interceptions in the first game didn't have as many as the previous QB who threw 10 interceptions for all of last season. We're still in the early stages of this outbreak. The early results don't look good.
Exactly what about 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic tells you the Obama administration handled things well themselves? Largely contained? The left is going ape**** over the current 80k cases. Get real, man.
That's for the whole pandemic and not just the early stages, right?

Let's see how this one plays out.
Unit2Sucks
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so long story short bearlyamazing thinks Trump is doing a terrible job but we should be happy about it because he says Obama did a bad job with H1N1 and that Obama didn't do enough to protect us.

How is complaining about Obama in any way helpful? Complaining about Trump is necessary because he needs pressure from all sides to do the right thing. His natural instinct is always to do the wrong thing for America and without people coming at him from all sides, that's where we will end up. That's how we got here by the way - had he not taken all the wrong steps, we wouldn't have the problem we have now.

By the way, it's ridiculous to compare how Obama reacted to a much different problem. H1N1 killed 12,500 Americans over a 12 month period and had a CFR that was lower than a typical flu season. If COVID-19 hits 60 million Americans, it could kill more people than Cancer does in a year. The flu this year killed several times more people than H1N1 and NOT A SINGLE PERSON has criticized Trump for the flu response.

We've passed 1k dead already and people are projecting that more than 10k will die per week in April. I would be ecstatic if only 12,500 ultimately died of COVID-19 which makes so many of Trump's whackadoodle statements ("we're at 15 cases and it will be 0 soon") even more offensive. If you are going to whatabout Obama, why don't you find us some dangerous statements he made? Trump gets up on TV every single day and gaslights this country about COVID-19 like Baghdad Bob and people like you make it possible.

I don't think you were ever interested in the truth, but for anyone wonder what H1N1 was all about, here are some representative facts:

  • On April 15, 2009, the first infection was identified in California, according to the CDC, and less than two weeks later, on April 26, 2009, the Obama administration declared a public health emergency. The day before, on April 25, the World Health Organization had declared a public health emergency.
  • The same day April 26 the CDC began releasing antiviral drugs to treat the H1N1 flu, and two days later, the FDA approved a new CDC test for the disease, according to a CDC timeline on the pandemic.
  • The WHO declared H1N1 a pandemic on June 11, 2009. Obama declared a national emergency related to the pandemic on Oct. 24, 2009. At the time, the CDC director, Dr. Thomas Frieden, had said millions of people had been infected in the U.S. and more than 1,000 had died. Also about 11.3 million doses of H1N1 vaccine had been distributed, he said.
  • Rep. Michael Burgess, a Republican from Texas, praised the CDC at a House hearing in 2016 for quickly developing a vaccine for the swine flu in about six months in time for the start of the school year in September 2009. "So that's a 6-month time frame if I'm doing my math correctly that you were able to identify the genetic sequence of the virus, reverse engineer a vaccine, test it, assure its safety and efficacy, and get it to school teachers on the second week of school. That's pretty impressive," he said.
bearlyamazing
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Tedhead94 said:

bearlyamazing said:

Unit2Sucks said:

"Plenty of blame to go around"

Oh really?


Oh good, a bull****ico tweet.

Did their "playbook" tell the new administration how to prevent 60.8 million virus cases, 274,304 hospitalizations and 12,469 deaths in the U.S. that occurred during the H1N1 pandemic?

You're really trying to tout the Obama administration's brainpower as the gold standard in fighting pandemics? The one who went through this this extended pandemic and didn't restock critical medical supplies for their last half decade in office?

Got it.
Probably not . But it might have been developed using the wisdom garnered from the previous event(s).

Might be a good idea to learn from previous failures so that you don't make the same mistakes.

Come to think of it, that may be the reason for the playbook in the first place.
I agree with the first two sentences. But the third? Do the exact opposite of what we've done for the past 5 years?

After H1N1, no administration should ever be caught flat-footed again. Not the Obama administration for the 5 years after getting out of the pandemic. Not the Trump administration. Not any administration in years to come.
We can't afford it financially and we can't afford it from a health and well-being standpoint.
bearlyamazing
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Unit2Sucks said:

so long story short bearlyamazing thinks Trump is doing a terrible job but we should be happy about it because he says Obama did a bad job with H1N1 and that Obama didn't do enough to protect us.
What kind of idiotic statement is that? I listed multiple things that Trump's done wrong and your analysis is that I said we should be happy about it? How am I supposed to take you seriously if you can't have a serious discussion?

We were VERY lucky H1N1 wasn't more deadly. If we end up having just a small fraction of Covid-19 cases that we did of H1N1, we're in big, big trouble.
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