An alternate look at Covid-19 and proper treatment

14,366 Views | 85 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Unit2Sucks
bearlyamazing
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Interesting information, if true:

In the last 35 days, a mountain of anecdotal evidence has come out of NYC, Italy, Spain, etc. about COVID-19 and characteristics of patients who get seriously ill. It's not only piling up but now leading to a general field-level consensus backed up by a few previously little-known studies that we've had it all wrong the whole time. Well, a few had some things eerily correct, especially with Hydroxychloroquine with Azithromicin, but we'll get to that in a minute.

There is no 'pneumonia' nor ARDS. At least not the ARDS with established treatment protocols and procedures we're familiar with. Ventilators are not only the wrong solution, but high pressure intubation can actually wind up causing more damage than without, not to mention complications from tracheal scarring and ulcers given the duration of intubation often required They may still have a use in the immediate future for patients too far to bring back with this newfound knowledge, but moving forward a new treatment protocol needs to be established so we stop treating patients for the wrong disease.
Quote:

The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. People are simply desaturating (losing o2 in their blood), and that's what eventually leads to organ failures that kill them, not any form of ARDS or pneumonia. All the damage to the lungs you see in CT scans are from the release of oxidative iron from the hemes, this overwhelms the natural defenses against pulmonary oxidative stress and causes that nice, always-bilateral ground glass opacity in the lungs. Patients returning for re-hospitalization days or weeks after recovery suffering from apparent delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy strengthen the notion COVID-19 patients are suffering from hypoxia despite no signs of respiratory 'tire out' or fatigue.
Here's the breakdown of the whole process, including some ELI5-level cliff notes. Much has been simplified just to keep it digestible and layman-friendly.

Your red blood cells carry oxygen from your lungs to all your organs and the rest of your body. Red blood cells can do this thanks to hemoglobin, which is a protein consisting of four "hemes". Hemes have a special kind of iron ion, which is normally quite toxic in its free form, locked away in its center with a porphyrin acting as it's 'container'. In this way, the iron ion can be 'caged' and carried around safely by the hemoglobin, but used to bind to oxygen when it gets to your lungs.

When the red blood cell gets to the alveoli, or the little sacs in your lungs where all the gas exchange happens, that special little iron ion can flip between FE2+ and FE3+ states with electron exchange and bond to some oxygen, then it goes off on its little merry way to deliver o2 elsewhere.

Here's where COVID-19 comes in. Its glycoproteins bond to the heme, and in doing so that special and toxic oxidative iron ion is "disassociated" (released). It's basically let out of the cage and now freely roaming around on its own. This is bad for two reasons:

1) Without the iron ion, hemoglobin can no longer bind to oxygen. Once all the hemoglobin is impaired, the red blood cell is essentially turned into a Freightliner truck cab with no trailer and no ability to store its cargo.. it is useless and just running around with COVID-19 virus attached to its porphyrin. All these useless trucks running around not delivering oxygen is what starts to lead to desaturation, or watching the patient's spo2 levels drop. It is INCORRECT to assume traditional ARDS and in doing so, you're treating the WRONG DISEASE. Think of it a lot like carbon monoxide poisoning, in which CO is bound to the hemoglobin, making it unable to carry oxygen. In those cases, ventilators aren't treating the root cause; the patient's lungs aren't 'tiring out', they're pumping just fine. The red blood cells just can't carry o2, end of story. Only in this case, unlike CO poisoning in which eventually the CO can break off, the affected hemoglobin is permanently stripped of its ability to carry o2 because it has lost its iron ion. The body compensates for this lack of o2 carrying capacity and deliveries by having your kidneys release hormones like erythropoietin, which tell your bone marrow factories to ramp up production on new red blood cells with freshly made and fully functioning hemoglobin. This is the reason you find elevated hemoglobin and decreased blood oxygen saturation as one of the 3 primary indicators of whether the **** is about to hit the fan for a particular patient or not.

2) That little iron ion, along with millions of its friends released from other hemes, are now floating through your blood freely. As I mentioned before, this type of iron ion is highly reactive and causes oxidative damage. It turns out that this happens to a limited extent naturally in our bodies and we have cleanup & defense mechanisms to keep the balance. The lungs, in particular, have 3 primary defenses to maintain "iron homeostasis", 2 of which are in the alveoli, those little sacs in your lungs we talked about earlier. The first of the two are little macrophages that roam around and scavenge up any free radicals like this oxidative iron. The second is a lining on the walls (called the epithelial surface) which has a thin layer of fluid packed with high levels of antioxidant molecules.. things like abscorbic acid (AKA Vitamin C) among others. Well, this is usually good enough for naturally occurring rogue iron ions but with COVID-19 running rampant your body is now basically like a progressive state letting out all the prisoners out of the prisons it's just too much iron and it begins to overwhelm your lungs' countermeasures, and thus begins the process of pulmonary oxidative stress. This leads to damage and inflammation, which leads to all that nasty stuff and damage you see in CT scans of COVID-19 patient lungs. Ever noticed how it's always bilateral? (both lungs at the same time) Pneumonia rarely ever does that, but COVID-19 does EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
-
Once your body is now running out of control, with all your oxygen trucks running around without any freight, and tons of this toxic form of iron floating around in your bloodstream, other defenses kick in. While your lungs are busy with all this oxidative stress they can't handle, and your organs are being starved of o2 without their constant stream of deliveries from red blood cell's hemoglobin, and your liver is attempting to do its best to remove the iron and store it in its 'iron vault'. Only its getting overwhelmed too. It's starved for oxygen and fighting a losing battle from all your hemoglobin letting its iron free, and starts crying out "help, I'm taking damage!" by releasing an enzyme called alanine aminotransferase (ALT). BOOM, there is your second of 3 primary indicators of whether the **** is about to hit the fan for a particular patient or not.

Eventually, if the patient's immune system doesn't fight off the virus in time before their blood oxygen saturation drops too low, ventilator or no ventilator, organs start shutting down. No fuel, no work. The only way to even try to keep them going is max oxygen, even a hyperbaric chamber if one is available on 100% oxygen at multiple atmospheres of pressure, just to give what's left of their functioning hemoglobin a chance to carry enough o2 to the organs and keep them alive. Yeah we don't have nearly enough of those chambers, so some fresh red blood cells with normal hemoglobin in the form of a transfusion will have to do.

The core point being, treating patients with the iron ions stripped from their hemoglobin (rendering it abnormally nonfunctional) with ventilator intubation is futile, unless you're just hoping the patient's immune system will work its magic in time. The root of the illness needs to be addressed.

Best case scenario? Treatment regimen early, before symptoms progress too far. Hydroxychloroquine (more on that in a minute, I promise) with Azithromicin has shown fantastic, albeit critics keep mentioning 'anecdotal' to describe the mountain, promise and I'll explain why it does so well next. But forget straight-up plasma with antibodies, that might work early but if the patient is too far gone they'll need more. They'll need all the blood: antibodies and red blood cells. No help in sending over a detachment of ammunition to a soldier already unconscious and bleeding out on the battlefield, you need to send that ammo along with some hemoglobin-stimulant-magic so that he can wake up and fire those shots at the enemy.

The story with Hydroxychloroquine

All that hilariously misguided and counterproductive criticism the media piled on chloroquine (purely for political reasons) as a viable treatment will now go down as the biggest Fake News blunder to rule them all. The media actively engaged their activism to fight at the cost of thousands of lives. Shame on them.

How does chloroquine work? Same way as it does for malaria. You see, malaria is this little parasite that enters the red blood cells and starts eating hemoglobin as its food source. The reason chloroquine works for malaria is the same reason it works for COVID-19 while not fully understood, it is suspected to bind to DNA and interfere with the ability to work magic on hemoglobin. The same mechanism that stops malaria from getting its hands on hemoglobin and gobbling it up seems to do the same to COVID-19 (essentially little snippets of DNA in an envelope) from binding to it. On top of that, Hydroxychloroquine (an advanced descendant of regular old chloroquine) lowers the pH which can interfere with the replication of the virus. Again, while the full details are not known, the entire premise of this potentially 'game changing' treatment is to prevent hemoglobin from being interfered with, whether due to malaria or COVID-19.

No longer can the media and armchair pseudo-physicians sit in their little ivory towers, proclaiming "DUR so stoopid, malaria is bacteria, COVID-19 is virus, anti-bacteria drug no work on virus!". They never got the memo that a drug doesn't need to directly act on the pathogen to be effective. Sometimes it's enough just to stop it from doing what it does to hemoglobin, regardless of the means it uses to do so.

Anyway, enough of the rant. What's the end result here? First, the ventilator emergency needs to be re-examined. If you're putting a patient on a ventilator because they're going into a coma and need mechanical breathing to stay alive, okay we get it. Give 'em time for their immune systems to pull through. But if they're conscious, alert, compliant keep them on O2. Max it if you have to. If you HAVE to inevitably ventilate, do it at low pressure but max O2. Don't tear up their lungs with max PEEP, you're doing more harm to the patient because you're treating the wrong disease.

Ideally, some form of treatment needs to happen to:

[ol]
  • Inhibit viral growth and replication. Here plays CHQ+ZPAK+ZINC or other retroviral therapies being studies. Less virus, less hemoglobin losing its iron, less severity and damage.
  • Therapies used for anyone with abnormal hemoglobin or malfunctioning red blood cells. Blood transfusions. Whatever, I don't know the full breadth and scope because I'm not a physician. But think along those lines, and treat the real disease. If you're thinking about giving them plasma with antibodies, maybe if they're already in bad shape think again and give them BLOOD with antibodies, or at least blood followed by plasma with antibodies.
  • Now that we know more about how this virus works and affects our bodies, a whole range of options should open up.
  • [/ol]
    Big C
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    This was an interesting read. Hopefully, we are headed up a steep learning curve on how to deal with COVID-19.
    Unit2Sucks
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    A lot to unpack here.

    I think it's important to distinguish between "promising" treatments and treatments that are vetted enough for the president to amplify the way he has.

    There are a number of promising therapies including Remdesivir, HCQ and more. When Trump first started talking about HCQ, it was already being studied (in approximately 10% of all COVID related studies in the US) and that has jumped to approximately 35% of studies now. Resources that could have been used to explore other therapies are being redirected to HCQ. We also have the problem of people not wanting to participate in HCQ trials (where they could end up in the control group) because people are prescribing HCQ so frequently off label that patients are choosing that route.

    If it were to turn out to be the miracle cure that many are hanging their hats on to save us from - let's be honest - a dysfunctional government response to this pandemic, that would have been a positive shift in resourcing. If the concerns about it's side effects (including heart, vision and kidney-related) are well-founded and the efficacy is less than touted, that could turn out to be a poor allocation of resources.

    The best thing that could happen for the world is that some therapeutic treatment like HCQ can be prescribed early in the process to patients to prevent them from seeking hospital care which would massively reduce the loan on our healthcare system. It's imperative that the treatment be safe enough to use at home without doctor supervision. It's also imperative that we massively increase testing availability so we can actually catch people before their illness proceeds to the late stages that require hospital care. Right now we have nowhere near the testing capacity or capability to actually do that and without that all we really have is a therapy that is at best marginally effective for late-stage patients and will not do much to alleviate pressure from an overtaxed healthcare system.
    Anarchistbear
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    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    bearlyamazing
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    Unit2Sucks said:

    A lot to unpack here.

    I think it's important to distinguish between "promising" treatments and treatments that are vetted enough for the president to amplify the way he has.

    There are a number of promising therapies including Remdesivir, HCQ and more. When Trump first started talking about HCQ, it was already being studied (in approximately 10% of all COVID related studies in the US) and that has jumped to approximately 35% of studies now. Resources that could have been used to explore other therapies are being redirected to HCQ. We also have the problem of people not wanting to participate in HCQ trials (where they could end up in the control group) because people are prescribing HCQ so frequently off label that patients are choosing that route.

    If it were to turn out to be the miracle cure that many are hanging their hats on to save us from - let's be honest - a dysfunctional government response to this pandemic, that would have been a positive shift in resourcing. If the concerns about it's side effects (including heart, vision and kidney-related) are well-founded and the efficacy is less than touted, that could turn out to be a poor allocation of resources.

    The best thing that could happen for the world is that some therapeutic treatment like HCQ can be prescribed early in the process to patients to prevent them from seeking hospital care which would massively reduce the loan on our healthcare system. It's imperative that the treatment be safe enough to use at home without doctor supervision. It's also imperative that we massively increase testing availability so we can actually catch people before their illness proceeds to the late stages that require hospital care. Right now we have nowhere near the testing capacity or capability to actually do that and without that all we really have is a therapy that is at best marginally effective for late-stage patients and will not do much to alleviate pressure from an overtaxed healthcare system.
    The side effects are only if taken in excessive quantities, though, correct? There are a lot of people who have to take a recommended once a week dose over an extended period and little to none of them have negative side effects at standard dosages from what I've seen. And I don't believe Covid-19 patients are taking any higher quantity than regularly prescribed for it's normal usage in these trials or hospitalization situations, are they?
    Unit2Sucks
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    bearlyamazing said:

    Unit2Sucks said:




    The side effects are only if taken in excessive quantities, though, correct? There are a lot of people who have to take a recommended once a week dose over an extended period and little to none of them have negative side effects at standard dosages from what I've seen. And I don't believe Covid-19 patients are taking any higher quantity than regularly prescribed for it's normal usage in these trials or hospitalization situations, are they?
    From what I have read, many of the studies involve much higher doses for COVID. This article says the "high dosage" test is 1200 mg per day. Normal for lupus and rheumatoid arthritis is 200-400 mg per day.
    This is one among many reasons it's extremely premature to recommend a therapeutic without proper studies done to determine the correct dosage. Even more so because HCQ can be fatal in the wrong dosage and here "wrong" might mean just 2x the correct dosage.
    BearlyCareAnymore
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    bearlyamazing said:



    Interesting information, if true:

    In the last 35 days, a mountain of anecdotal evidence has come out of NYC, Italy, Spain, etc. about COVID-19 and characteristics of patients who get seriously ill. It's not only piling up but now leading to a general field-level consensus backed up by a few previously little-known studies that we've had it all wrong the whole time. Well, a few had some things eerily correct, especially with Hydroxychloroquine with Azithromicin, but we'll get to that in a minute.

    There is no 'pneumonia' nor ARDS. At least not the ARDS with established treatment protocols and procedures we're familiar with. Ventilators are not only the wrong solution, but high pressure intubation can actually wind up causing more damage than without, not to mention complications from tracheal scarring and ulcers given the duration of intubation often required They may still have a use in the immediate future for patients too far to bring back with this newfound knowledge, but moving forward a new treatment protocol needs to be established so we stop treating patients for the wrong disease.
    Quote:

    The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. People are simply desaturating (losing o2 in their blood), and that's what eventually leads to organ failures that kill them, not any form of ARDS or pneumonia. All the damage to the lungs you see in CT scans are from the release of oxidative iron from the hemes, this overwhelms the natural defenses against pulmonary oxidative stress and causes that nice, always-bilateral ground glass opacity in the lungs. Patients returning for re-hospitalization days or weeks after recovery suffering from apparent delayed post-hypoxic leukoencephalopathy strengthen the notion COVID-19 patients are suffering from hypoxia despite no signs of respiratory 'tire out' or fatigue.
    Here's the breakdown of the whole process, including some ELI5-level cliff notes. Much has been simplified just to keep it digestible and layman-friendly.

    Your red blood cells carry oxygen from your lungs to all your organs and the rest of your body. Red blood cells can do this thanks to hemoglobin, which is a protein consisting of four "hemes". Hemes have a special kind of iron ion, which is normally quite toxic in its free form, locked away in its center with a porphyrin acting as it's 'container'. In this way, the iron ion can be 'caged' and carried around safely by the hemoglobin, but used to bind to oxygen when it gets to your lungs.

    When the red blood cell gets to the alveoli, or the little sacs in your lungs where all the gas exchange happens, that special little iron ion can flip between FE2+ and FE3+ states with electron exchange and bond to some oxygen, then it goes off on its little merry way to deliver o2 elsewhere.

    Here's where COVID-19 comes in. Its glycoproteins bond to the heme, and in doing so that special and toxic oxidative iron ion is "disassociated" (released). It's basically let out of the cage and now freely roaming around on its own. This is bad for two reasons:

    1) Without the iron ion, hemoglobin can no longer bind to oxygen. Once all the hemoglobin is impaired, the red blood cell is essentially turned into a Freightliner truck cab with no trailer and no ability to store its cargo.. it is useless and just running around with COVID-19 virus attached to its porphyrin. All these useless trucks running around not delivering oxygen is what starts to lead to desaturation, or watching the patient's spo2 levels drop. It is INCORRECT to assume traditional ARDS and in doing so, you're treating the WRONG DISEASE. Think of it a lot like carbon monoxide poisoning, in which CO is bound to the hemoglobin, making it unable to carry oxygen. In those cases, ventilators aren't treating the root cause; the patient's lungs aren't 'tiring out', they're pumping just fine. The red blood cells just can't carry o2, end of story. Only in this case, unlike CO poisoning in which eventually the CO can break off, the affected hemoglobin is permanently stripped of its ability to carry o2 because it has lost its iron ion. The body compensates for this lack of o2 carrying capacity and deliveries by having your kidneys release hormones like erythropoietin, which tell your bone marrow factories to ramp up production on new red blood cells with freshly made and fully functioning hemoglobin. This is the reason you find elevated hemoglobin and decreased blood oxygen saturation as one of the 3 primary indicators of whether the **** is about to hit the fan for a particular patient or not.

    2) That little iron ion, along with millions of its friends released from other hemes, are now floating through your blood freely. As I mentioned before, this type of iron ion is highly reactive and causes oxidative damage. It turns out that this happens to a limited extent naturally in our bodies and we have cleanup & defense mechanisms to keep the balance. The lungs, in particular, have 3 primary defenses to maintain "iron homeostasis", 2 of which are in the alveoli, those little sacs in your lungs we talked about earlier. The first of the two are little macrophages that roam around and scavenge up any free radicals like this oxidative iron. The second is a lining on the walls (called the epithelial surface) which has a thin layer of fluid packed with high levels of antioxidant molecules.. things like abscorbic acid (AKA Vitamin C) among others. Well, this is usually good enough for naturally occurring rogue iron ions but with COVID-19 running rampant your body is now basically like a progressive state letting out all the prisoners out of the prisons it's just too much iron and it begins to overwhelm your lungs' countermeasures, and thus begins the process of pulmonary oxidative stress. This leads to damage and inflammation, which leads to all that nasty stuff and damage you see in CT scans of COVID-19 patient lungs. Ever noticed how it's always bilateral? (both lungs at the same time) Pneumonia rarely ever does that, but COVID-19 does EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
    -
    Once your body is now running out of control, with all your oxygen trucks running around without any freight, and tons of this toxic form of iron floating around in your bloodstream, other defenses kick in. While your lungs are busy with all this oxidative stress they can't handle, and your organs are being starved of o2 without their constant stream of deliveries from red blood cell's hemoglobin, and your liver is attempting to do its best to remove the iron and store it in its 'iron vault'. Only its getting overwhelmed too. It's starved for oxygen and fighting a losing battle from all your hemoglobin letting its iron free, and starts crying out "help, I'm taking damage!" by releasing an enzyme called alanine aminotransferase (ALT). BOOM, there is your second of 3 primary indicators of whether the **** is about to hit the fan for a particular patient or not.

    Eventually, if the patient's immune system doesn't fight off the virus in time before their blood oxygen saturation drops too low, ventilator or no ventilator, organs start shutting down. No fuel, no work. The only way to even try to keep them going is max oxygen, even a hyperbaric chamber if one is available on 100% oxygen at multiple atmospheres of pressure, just to give what's left of their functioning hemoglobin a chance to carry enough o2 to the organs and keep them alive. Yeah we don't have nearly enough of those chambers, so some fresh red blood cells with normal hemoglobin in the form of a transfusion will have to do.

    The core point being, treating patients with the iron ions stripped from their hemoglobin (rendering it abnormally nonfunctional) with ventilator intubation is futile, unless you're just hoping the patient's immune system will work its magic in time. The root of the illness needs to be addressed.

    Best case scenario? Treatment regimen early, before symptoms progress too far. Hydroxychloroquine (more on that in a minute, I promise) with Azithromicin has shown fantastic, albeit critics keep mentioning 'anecdotal' to describe the mountain, promise and I'll explain why it does so well next. But forget straight-up plasma with antibodies, that might work early but if the patient is too far gone they'll need more. They'll need all the blood: antibodies and red blood cells. No help in sending over a detachment of ammunition to a soldier already unconscious and bleeding out on the battlefield, you need to send that ammo along with some hemoglobin-stimulant-magic so that he can wake up and fire those shots at the enemy.

    The story with Hydroxychloroquine

    All that hilariously misguided and counterproductive criticism the media piled on chloroquine (purely for political reasons) as a viable treatment will now go down as the biggest Fake News blunder to rule them all. The media actively engaged their activism to fight at the cost of thousands of lives. Shame on them.

    How does chloroquine work? Same way as it does for malaria. You see, malaria is this little parasite that enters the red blood cells and starts eating hemoglobin as its food source. The reason chloroquine works for malaria is the same reason it works for COVID-19 while not fully understood, it is suspected to bind to DNA and interfere with the ability to work magic on hemoglobin. The same mechanism that stops malaria from getting its hands on hemoglobin and gobbling it up seems to do the same to COVID-19 (essentially little snippets of DNA in an envelope) from binding to it. On top of that, Hydroxychloroquine (an advanced descendant of regular old chloroquine) lowers the pH which can interfere with the replication of the virus. Again, while the full details are not known, the entire premise of this potentially 'game changing' treatment is to prevent hemoglobin from being interfered with, whether due to malaria or COVID-19.

    No longer can the media and armchair pseudo-physicians sit in their little ivory towers, proclaiming "DUR so stoopid, malaria is bacteria, COVID-19 is virus, anti-bacteria drug no work on virus!". They never got the memo that a drug doesn't need to directly act on the pathogen to be effective. Sometimes it's enough just to stop it from doing what it does to hemoglobin, regardless of the means it uses to do so.

    Anyway, enough of the rant. What's the end result here? First, the ventilator emergency needs to be re-examined. If you're putting a patient on a ventilator because they're going into a coma and need mechanical breathing to stay alive, okay we get it. Give 'em time for their immune systems to pull through. But if they're conscious, alert, compliant keep them on O2. Max it if you have to. If you HAVE to inevitably ventilate, do it at low pressure but max O2. Don't tear up their lungs with max PEEP, you're doing more harm to the patient because you're treating the wrong disease.

    Ideally, some form of treatment needs to happen to:

    [ol]
  • Inhibit viral growth and replication. Here plays CHQ+ZPAK+ZINC or other retroviral therapies being studies. Less virus, less hemoglobin losing its iron, less severity and damage.
  • Therapies used for anyone with abnormal hemoglobin or malfunctioning red blood cells. Blood transfusions. Whatever, I don't know the full breadth and scope because I'm not a physician. But think along those lines, and treat the real disease. If you're thinking about giving them plasma with antibodies, maybe if they're already in bad shape think again and give them BLOOD with antibodies, or at least blood followed by plasma with antibodies.
  • Now that we know more about how this virus works and affects our bodies, a whole range of options should open up.
  • [/ol]
    1. Scientists are working their asses off to try to figure this thing out. Anyone who claims to know how this virus works are misrepresenting the situation. Mostly what is going on is people hypothesizing, and they might be good hypotheses, and others taking them as the solution. What you described is very interesting until one claims to know that is what is happening.

    2. NO ONE was ever against studying hydroxychloroquine. There is theory behind testing it. What people had a problem with a president going on television and championing it based on extremely preliminary evidence that puts it as one of several possible solutions that should be looked at. There are about 7 different solutions that might work. (or might not). How are you going to decide the "what have you got to lose" solution?
    Bearonthebench
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    Anarchistbear said:

    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    Looks like it's from a taken down Medium post.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

    Note that this last bullet point was left out of the OP:

    Quote:

    [ol]
    Don't trust China. China is ASSHOE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades.[/ol]Fini.
    Bearonthebench
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    OaktownBear said:

    1. Scientists are working their asses off to try to figure this thing out. Anyone who claims to know how this virus works are misrepresenting the situation. Mostly what is going on is people hypothesizing, and they might be good hypotheses, and others taking them as the solution. What you described is very interesting until one claims to know that is what is happening.

    2. NO ONE was ever against studying hydroxychloroquine. There is theory behind testing it. What people had a problem with a president going on television and championing it based on extremely preliminary evidence that puts it as one of several possible solutions that should be looked at. There are about 7 different solutions that might work. (or might not). How are you going to decide the "what have you got to lose" solution?
    Yeah, if this doctor wanted to present his theory he doesn't need to go on youtube and give anecdotes to convince the public. He needs gather his data and publish it to convince his colleagues and researchers like the rest of us. Publishing can be slow and annoying, but the vetting process is important.
    Anarchistbear
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    Bearonthebench said:

    Anarchistbear said:

    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    Looks like it's from a taken down Medium post.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

    Note that this last bullet point was left out of the OP:

    Quote:

    [ol]
    Don't trust China. China is ASSHOE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades.[/ol]Fini.



    I don't know about you but when I want expert medical advice I always search out sources named bearlyamazing or brushybill
    bearister
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    Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.amp.html
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    BearlyCareAnymore
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    bearister said:

    Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.amp.html


    Also, university of Michigan was giving it to patients and they announced they were stopping because they said they were having no impact on outcomes and were causing bad side effects
    Bearonthebench
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    Anarchistbear said:

    Bearonthebench said:

    Anarchistbear said:

    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    Looks like it's from a taken down Medium post.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

    Note that this last bullet point was left out of the OP:

    Quote:

    [ol]
    Don't trust China. China is ASSHOE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades.[/ol]Fini.



    I don't know about you but when I want expert medical advice I always search out sources named bearlyamazing or brushybill
    I prefer remedies from Hangover Haven to be honest.

    https://www.tigerdroppings.com/rant/display.aspx?sp=89490537&s=4&p=89489571
    BearlyCareAnymore
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    OaktownBear said:

    bearister said:

    Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.amp.html


    Also, university of Michigan was giving it to patients and they announced they were stopping because they said they were having no impact on outcomes and were causing bad side effects


    Now a French study of 181 patients shows no efficacy and 9.5% developing heart problems. After reading OP, I did some digging for hydroxychloraquine studies. I really want it or anything else to work. I don't care about the political fallout. The initial SCIENTIFIC sources are not promising. I wonder if OP who is eager to blame fake news media for killing people if it works is equally willing to blame right wing news media if it turns out we wasted valuable resources on an ineffective remedy because they wanted Trump to be right more than they wanted an actual cure.
    kelly09
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    Anarchistbear said:

    Bearonthebench said:

    Anarchistbear said:

    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    Looks like it's from a taken down Medium post.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

    Note that this last bullet point was left out of the OP:

    Quote:

    [ol]
    Don't trust China. China is ASSHOE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades.[/ol]Fini.



    I don't know about you but when I want expert medical advice I always search out sources named bearlyamazing or brushybill
    No, I go to People's Park and seek out Anarchistbear.
    Anarchistbear
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    kelly09 said:

    Anarchistbear said:

    Bearonthebench said:

    Anarchistbear said:

    https://texags.com/forums/84/topics/3105206

    https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/threads/theyre-treating-patients-for-the-wrong-disease.194233/
    Looks like it's from a taken down Medium post.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20200405061401/https://medium.com/@agaiziunas/covid-19-had-us-all-fooled-but-now-we-might-have-finally-found-its-secret-91182386efcb

    Note that this last bullet point was left out of the OP:

    Quote:

    [ol]
    Don't trust China. China is ASSHOE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades.[/ol]Fini.



    I don't know about you but when I want expert medical advice I always search out sources named bearlyamazing or brushybill
    No, I go to People's Park and seek out Anarchistbear.


    Wise move. They have the herb that will cure you.
    Unit2Sucks
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    OaktownBear said:

    OaktownBear said:

    bearister said:

    Small Chloroquine Study Halted Over Risk of Fatal Heart Complications


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/12/health/chloroquine-coronavirus-trump.amp.html


    Also, university of Michigan was giving it to patients and they announced they were stopping because they said they were having no impact on outcomes and were causing bad side effects


    Now a French study of 181 patients shows no efficacy and 9.5% developing heart problems. After reading OP, I did some digging for hydroxychloraquine studies. I really want it or anything else to work. I don't care about the political fallout. The initial SCIENTIFIC sources are not promising. I wonder if OP who is eager to blame fake news media for killing people if it works is equally willing to blame right wing news media if it turns out we wasted valuable resources on an ineffective remedy because they wanted Trump to be right more than they wanted an actual cure.
    How dare you OTB! The new French study is purely anecdotal and with such a small sample size should be ignored. Studies can only be relied on when they support dear leader's very very strong intuition.

    EDIT: All jokes aside, I looked for the "study" and it really was just anecdotal. They looked at medical records for 181 patients, they didn't do a a blind study with placebo. Also, this was just HCQ, not HCQ+Z pak, which is the "miracle cure" that many are touting. So I could certainly not consider this "study" conclusive.
    bearlyamazing
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    I've yet to hear of any smaller dosage hydroxychloroquine or chorolquine combined with zpac failing or causing dangerous side effects, only ones with large doses of hql and no zpac mentioned. If they're out there in specifics, please share. I don't care if Trump recommended hql or any other drug. I just want something that's effective before a vaccine goes to market to limit the death and damage.

    Here's another story on the harm that ventilators seem to be causing:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200415-doctors-think-ventilators-might-harm-some-covid-19-patients

    Doctors think ventilators might harm some COVID-19 patients

    A global debate has emerged among doctors treating COVID-19: When should patients who need help breathing be placed on ventilators -- and could intubation do some people more harm than good?

    It's one of the biggest medical questions of the day, along with how effective the antimalarial hydroxychloroquine really is, a US doctor told AFP.

    The data is scarce and there aren't yet formal studies on the subject since the disease itself is so new and we don't have the benefit of hindsight.

    It's also impossible to know for sure whether the patients placed on ventilators would have died anyway because of the severity of their conditions.

    But a growing number of doctors have said that COVID-19 patients appear to fade rapidly when they are put on ventilators and tubes are placed down their windpipes.

    In recent weeks, American hospitals have started doing what they can to delay having to use the breathing machines -- which the federal government ordered 130,000 of, fearing a shortage.

    The first warning signs came from Italy, where the vast majority of patients placed on artificial breathing died.
    The statistics are also bad in the United Kingdom and in New York, where 80 percent of intubated patients die, according to the state's governor, often after spending a week or two in intensive care in which they are placed in an artificial coma and their muscles atrophy.

    At the start of the pandemic, patients who were completely out of breath were treated under well established protocols for a severe lung condition called Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS).

    This condition, which prevents the lungs from taking in enough oxygen to pass on to other organs, can be triggered by infection, such as pneumonia, or by physical injury.

    It's very dangerous, with studies placing the overall fatality rate at around 40 percent.
    The standard procedure for these patients is to intubate relatively early, and this is how COVID-19 patients have generally been treated.

    Until, that is, doctors began to realize lung complications among COVID-19 patients weren't quite the same as "typical" ARDS patients, at least not in all cases.

    The lungs aren't damaged in the same way -- they are less "stiff."

    Doctor Luciano Gattinoni and his colleagues in Milan described at the end of February how they had to adjust their procedures.

    "All we can do (by) ventilating these patients is 'buying time' with minimum additional damage," he wrote in a research letter to the journal of the American Thoracic Society where he argued for lower air pressure settings.

    "We need to be patient."

    - 'Learning as we go' -

    Kevin Wilson, a professor of medicine at Boston University and guideline director for American Thoracic Society guideline, agreed on the need for caution.

    "Most of the health care community has gone a little nervous by these bad reports about people not doing well on ventilator, and actually is moving towards trying to delay intubation," he told AFP.

    "We delay as long as we can, but not to a point where it becomes emergent," he added.
    Doctors realized that some patients who had very low blood oxygen levels and would normally be intubated could in fact go without.

    Instead of going straight to ventilators, doctors are opting to use less invasive methods -- like nasal cannulas that feed oxygen up the nose, conventional or more sophisticated breathing masks, or even placing the patients on their stomachs, which helps the lungs.

    "We're learning as we go," said Wilson.

    Most of the new information is coming from New York, where more than 10,000 people have died from the new coronavirus.

    "We try to wait a little longer, if possible keep people from even being on the ventilator," said Daniel Griffin, chief of the infectious disease division of ProHEALTH Care Associates, a network of 1,000 doctors serving hospitals around New York.

    "If they look like they're doing okay, we'll tolerate pretty low oxygen saturations," he added. Some recover without needing to step up the treatment.

    And if they do need to be intubated, Griffin says they use different settings on the ventilator with lower air pressure.

    Medical societies, including international experts from the Surviving Sepsis Campaign, are in the process of writing best practice guidelines. None yet have a definitive answer.
    Unit2Sucks
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    bearlyamazing said:

    I've yet to hear of any smaller dosage hydroxychloroquine or chorolquine combined with zpac failing or causing dangerous side effects, only ones with large doses of hql and no zpac mentioned. If they're out there in specifics, please share. I don't care if Trump recommended hql or any other drug. I just want something that's effective before a vaccine goes to market to limit the death and damage.
    This is what everyone wants. It's entirely unclear how long a vaccine will take and there are even some who are skeptical we will be able to develop a vaccine that really works. Until there is a good vaccine, we are likely to be in and out of shelter in place. Whether it's HCQ+Z pak or some other therapy, we will need to find a process that allows us to keep people off vents because the prognosis is grim once you are being ventilated. I've heard all kinds of different anecdotal data, but most recently doctors in NYC have said that 80% have died on ventilators. That's obviously a pretty grim outcome and one that we should try to avoid at all costs.

    Given the fact that as of yet we do not have any approved courses of treatment with HCQ (with or without Z Pak) that have been shown to be both effective and safe, and the fact that we do know that HCQ in many studies has been shown to be unsafe, there is plenty of reason to be cautious right now. The "what do you have to lose" might be a reasonable thing to say when you are on a ventilator facing near-certain death, but for someone who may not ultimately need ventilation, there is plenty to lose. There is a reason that people urge caution in citing anecdotal data.
    BearlyCareAnymore
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    bearlyamazing said:

    I've yet to hear of any smaller dosage hydroxychloroquine or chorolquine combined with zpac failing or causing dangerous side effects, only ones with large doses of hql and no zpac mentioned. If they're out there in specifics, please share. I don't care if Trump recommended hql or any other drug. I just want something that's effective before a vaccine goes to market to limit the death and damage.

    Here's another story on the harm that ventilators seem to be causing:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20200415-doctors-think-ventilators-might-harm-some-covid-19-patients

    Doctors think ventilators might harm some COVID-19 patients

    A global debate has emerged among doctors treating COVID-19: When should patients who need help breathing be placed on ventilators -- and could intubation do some people more harm than good?

    It's one of the biggest medical questions of the day, along with how effective the antimalarial hydroxychloroquine really is, a US doctor told AFP.

    The data is scarce and there aren't yet formal studies on the subject since the disease itself is so new and we don't have the benefit of hindsight.

    It's also impossible to know for sure whether the patients placed on ventilators would have died anyway because of the severity of their conditions.

    But a growing number of doctors have said that COVID-19 patients appear to fade rapidly when they are put on ventilators and tubes are placed down their windpipes.

    In recent weeks, American hospitals have started doing what they can to delay having to use the breathing machines -- which the federal government ordered 130,000 of, fearing a shortage.

    The first warning signs came from Italy, where the vast majority of patients placed on artificial breathing died.
    The statistics are also bad in the United Kingdom and in New York, where 80 percent of intubated patients die, according to the state's governor, often after spending a week or two in intensive care in which they are placed in an artificial coma and their muscles atrophy.

    At the start of the pandemic, patients who were completely out of breath were treated under well established protocols for a severe lung condition called Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome (ARDS).

    This condition, which prevents the lungs from taking in enough oxygen to pass on to other organs, can be triggered by infection, such as pneumonia, or by physical injury.

    It's very dangerous, with studies placing the overall fatality rate at around 40 percent.
    The standard procedure for these patients is to intubate relatively early, and this is how COVID-19 patients have generally been treated.

    Until, that is, doctors began to realize lung complications among COVID-19 patients weren't quite the same as "typical" ARDS patients, at least not in all cases.

    The lungs aren't damaged in the same way -- they are less "stiff."

    Doctor Luciano Gattinoni and his colleagues in Milan described at the end of February how they had to adjust their procedures.

    "All we can do (by) ventilating these patients is 'buying time' with minimum additional damage," he wrote in a research letter to the journal of the American Thoracic Society where he argued for lower air pressure settings.

    "We need to be patient."

    - 'Learning as we go' -

    Kevin Wilson, a professor of medicine at Boston University and guideline director for American Thoracic Society guideline, agreed on the need for caution.

    "Most of the health care community has gone a little nervous by these bad reports about people not doing well on ventilator, and actually is moving towards trying to delay intubation," he told AFP.

    "We delay as long as we can, but not to a point where it becomes emergent," he added.
    Doctors realized that some patients who had very low blood oxygen levels and would normally be intubated could in fact go without.

    Instead of going straight to ventilators, doctors are opting to use less invasive methods -- like nasal cannulas that feed oxygen up the nose, conventional or more sophisticated breathing masks, or even placing the patients on their stomachs, which helps the lungs.

    "We're learning as we go," said Wilson.

    Most of the new information is coming from New York, where more than 10,000 people have died from the new coronavirus.

    "We try to wait a little longer, if possible keep people from even being on the ventilator," said Daniel Griffin, chief of the infectious disease division of ProHEALTH Care Associates, a network of 1,000 doctors serving hospitals around New York.

    "If they look like they're doing okay, we'll tolerate pretty low oxygen saturations," he added. Some recover without needing to step up the treatment.

    And if they do need to be intubated, Griffin says they use different settings on the ventilator with lower air pressure.

    Medical societies, including international experts from the Surviving Sepsis Campaign, are in the process of writing best practice guidelines. None yet have a definitive answer.


    I think rat poison would be effective in curing Covid-19. Please cite a study that shows specifics that I'm wrong.

    That isn't how this works. You want to laude it as a treatment you need to show it works.

    I can't list studies, because they aren't finished, but there are several high profile places (Harvard UCSF, university of michigan, Mayo) that are not using it or have stopped using it due to poor results. There are also many who are basically saying here we go again because it has been championed for HIV, flu, SARS and others and has universally failed clinical trials.

    I'm happy for trials to begin. I hope it works. But there is no compelling evidence that it does. I'm sorry, but sources matter and when I see top medical schools and facilities lining up on one side I tend to listen.
    bearlyamazing
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    Your first sentence is just rhetorical nonsense. You know as well as I that there have been many stories of individuals who have responded immediately to HQB and zpac. Not rat poison. Not Drano. And I was particularly clear about my question. I've only read about bad reactions to high doses of HQL and I've not seen it referenced that it was used with zpac. I was asking if anyone had heard of it used in moderate does combined with zpac in any of these studies. I'm not trying to say it's a universal solution. I'm saying it's appeared to work well for some people. I don't care if it's HQL, chloroquine with zpac, Remdisivere or any other drug. I'm just hoping something helps slow down the process.

    Instead of trying to be a jerk, just answer the question if you have an answer. People reflexively make this into a political issue because Trump recommended it and people don't want Trump to look right about anything.

    I don't give a rat's ass if he's right. I want there to be some hope in the face of this awful virus. And so should everyone. Who cares if he might end up getting a few brownie points in the end? It won't mean a thing in reality.
    Unit2Sucks
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    bearlyamazing said:

    People reflexively make this into a political issue because Trump recommended it and people don't want Trump to look right about anything.

    I don't give a rat's ass if he's right. I want there to be some hope in the face of this awful virus. And so should everyone. Who cares if he might end up getting a few brownie points in the end? It won't mean a thing in reality.
    The extent to which this is political is entirely because people are defending Trump for eschewing the advice of public health experts by continuing to promote untested treatment. We would be saying the same thing if he were pushing Remdesivir, which has also shown lots of promise (with fewer side effects).

    It's not like Trump invented the treatment - I would be thrilled if 2 readily available and cost effective generic drugs prove safe and effective. All people are saying is listen to the public health experts. And make no mistake, no public health experts supported Trump coming out and hailing this "miracle cure" (possibly excluding whoever Fox News can find).

    If the treatment is safe and effective, Trump amplifying it before it was proven may give it a small boost - it certainly increased the number of trials. However, if it turns out not to have been safe and effective, Trump did a tremendous disservice to this country and we all know how much responsibility he would accept for that mistake. "What did you have to lose?" would be the extent of his acknowledgment of wrongdoing.

    So rather than continue to wage a PR campaign in favor of an unproven treatment, why don't we all just see which treatments are proven safe and effective and hope that our government does its level best to enable widespread use of whatever those treatments are.
    bearlyamazing
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    Unit2Sucks said:

    bearlyamazing said:

    People reflexively make this into a political issue because Trump recommended it and people don't want Trump to look right about anything.

    I don't give a rat's ass if he's right. I want there to be some hope in the face of this awful virus. And so should everyone. Who cares if he might end up getting a few brownie points in the end? It won't mean a thing in reality.
    The extent to which this is political is entirely because people are defending Trump for eschewing the advice of public health experts by continuing to promote untested treatment. We would be saying the same thing if he were pushing Remdesivir, which has also shown lots of promise (with fewer side effects).

    It's not like Trump invented the treatment - I would be thrilled if 2 readily available and cost effective generic drugs prove safe and effective. All people are saying is listen to the public health experts. And make no mistake, no public health experts supported Trump coming out and hailing this "miracle cure" (possibly excluding whoever Fox News can find).

    If the treatment is safe and effective, Trump amplifying it before it was proven may give it a small boost - it certainly increased the number of trials. However, if it turns out not to have been safe and effective, Trump did a tremendous disservice to this country and we all know how much responsibility he would accept for that mistake. "What did you have to lose?" would be the extent of his acknowledgment of wrongdoing.

    So rather than continue to wage a PR campaign in favor of an unproven treatment, why don't we all just see which treatments are proven safe and effective and hope that our government does its level best to enable widespread use of whatever those treatments are.
    Please. The extent to which this is political is entirely because people are defending Trump? Come on, man. Let's be intellectually honest here. Many, many people reflexively say it doesn't work and he's lying and being irresponsible, without letting testing and emergency usage play out and despite the anecdotal evidence of those it's worked for. To pretend anything different is utter nonsense. The media, politicians, the left on twitter, you name it. It's been politicized to death. You can argue about the wisdom of publicly promoting it but at the heart of the matter, despite his many flaws, he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world. A hopeless country is a dangerous thing. Recommending people take chloroquine in massive doses would be a dangerous thing, too, but a standard 250 mg dose like many people have taken regularly for decades depending on where they live is hardly dangerous in the face of a potential life or death scenario.

    But the main point of the two stories I linked wasn't to defend Trump or say HQL/chorloquine/remdisivir or anything else is a foolproof answer. It was more to point out some of the things some medical professionals are discovering that seems to run counter to original protocol. Things like iron ions detaching from hemoglobin potentially creating oxygen starvation and damaging organs and what might help prevent it, that ventilators may be doing more harm than good in many cases and more.
    bearister
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    ",...he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world."

    I don't believe that tRump has ever been motivated by empathy for his fellow man. With regard to all his thoughts and actions, all roads lead to tRump. He was hoping the drug would be the silver bullet that would end this giant sh@it stain on his presidency and legacy.


    "Narcissistic personality disorder one of several types of personality disorders is a mental condition in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism." Mayo Clinic


    This Is What Happens When a Narcissist Runs a Crisis

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/opinion/trump-coronavirus.html
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/04/05/opinion/trump-coronavirus.amp.html
    Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
    Send my credentials to the House of Detention

    “I love Cal deeply. What are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
    bearlyamazing
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    bearister said:

    ",...he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world."

    I don't believe that tRump has ever been motivated by empathy for his fellow man. With regard to all his thoughts and actions, all roads lead to tRump. He was hoping the drug would be the silver bullet that would end this giant sh@it stain on his presidency and legacy.
    Even taking your asinine, self-serving proposition that he has zero care and empathy for his country, that would still be irrelevant. Even if he didn't care whit for anyone, which is obvious bs (he at least cares about his supporters/half the country, at a minimum), it's still to his and everyone else's benefit that people remain hopeful and not sink into despair and panic, for a multitude of reasons.

    And nice try trying to lay this crisis at his feet. Just nonsensical drivel.
    bearister
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    bearlyamazing said:

    bearister said:

    ",...he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world."

    I don't believe that tRump has ever been motivated by empathy for his fellow man. With regard to all his thoughts and actions, all roads lead to tRump. He was hoping the drug would be the silver bullet that would end this giant sh@it stain on his presidency and legacy.
    Even taking your asinine, self-serving proposition...

    ....Just nonsensical drivel.


    I used to get a lot of amusement dealing with lawyers I argued against in court that revealed their fragile egos by peppering their counter arguments with personal insults. They just could not stand someone disagreeing with their positions. I just wrote them off as p@ussies that never got over being picked last for teams on the playground.
    Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
    Send my credentials to the House of Detention

    “I love Cal deeply. What are the directions to The Portal from Sproul Plaza?”
    bearlyamazing
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    bearister said:

    bearlyamazing said:

    bearister said:

    ",...he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world."

    I don't believe that tRump has ever been motivated by empathy for his fellow man. With regard to all his thoughts and actions, all roads lead to tRump. He was hoping the drug would be the silver bullet that would end this giant sh@it stain on his presidency and legacy.
    Even taking your asinine, self-serving proposition...

    ....Just nonsensical drivel.


    I used to get a lot of amusement dealing with lawyers I argued against in court that revealed their fragile egos by peppering their counter arguments with personal insults. They just could not stand someone disagreeing with their positions. I just wrote them off as p@ussies that never got over being picked last for teams on the playground.
    Oh, I see. My rejection of your cogent arguments that he doesn't care a whit about anyone in the country but himself, even his supporters, and that this global pandemic should all be laid at his feet means I have a fragile ego and I'm personally insulting you rather than the ridiculous things you're saying. Got it.
    BearChemist
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    bearlyamazing said:

    Unit2Sucks said:

    bearlyamazing said:

    People reflexively make this into a political issue because Trump recommended it and people don't want Trump to look right about anything.

    I don't give a rat's ass if he's right. I want there to be some hope in the face of this awful virus. And so should everyone. Who cares if he might end up getting a few brownie points in the end? It won't mean a thing in reality.
    The extent to which this is political is entirely because people are defending Trump for eschewing the advice of public health experts by continuing to promote untested treatment. We would be saying the same thing if he were pushing Remdesivir, which has also shown lots of promise (with fewer side effects).

    It's not like Trump invented the treatment - I would be thrilled if 2 readily available and cost effective generic drugs prove safe and effective. All people are saying is listen to the public health experts. And make no mistake, no public health experts supported Trump coming out and hailing this "miracle cure" (possibly excluding whoever Fox News can find).

    If the treatment is safe and effective, Trump amplifying it before it was proven may give it a small boost - it certainly increased the number of trials. However, if it turns out not to have been safe and effective, Trump did a tremendous disservice to this country and we all know how much responsibility he would accept for that mistake. "What did you have to lose?" would be the extent of his acknowledgment of wrongdoing.

    So rather than continue to wage a PR campaign in favor of an unproven treatment, why don't we all just see which treatments are proven safe and effective and hope that our government does its level best to enable widespread use of whatever those treatments are.
    Let's be intellectually honest here.

    Aha, he said that.
    bearlyamazing
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    Oh yeah, you have a great point. I guess I should just concede that HQL has become politicized 100% because of Trump supporters. Everything that's been all over the networks, cable news, twitter and everywhere else saying Trump's lying about HQL, it doesn't work, it should be outlawed, etc never happened. It's all a mirage. That's the intellectually honest point of view, not that it's been politicized on both sides. Got it.
    Unit2Sucks
    How long do you want to ignore this user?
    bearlyamazing said:

    You can argue about the wisdom of publicly promoting it but at the heart of the matter, despite his many flaws, he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world. A hopeless country is a dangerous thing. Recommending people take chloroquine in massive doses would be a dangerous thing, too, but a standard 250 mg dose like many people have taken regularly for decades depending on where they live is hardly dangerous in the face of a potential life or death scenario.



    The first sentence is quite literally what I am arguing. If you think the president's job is to give people false hope, then I guess we have different opinions. I don't think Trump or you should be recommending doses of medication to anyone and to say that it is being done to generate false hope is incredibly dangerous. I honestly can't believe that you don't think it's dangerous to recommend unproven medication which has dangerous side effects even if properly dosed and is fatal if improperly dosed.

    I think the president should do his best to help the country through a difficult time but to pretend like Trump's cocktail of false hope, abdication of responsibility and blaming everyone he can for problems he has caused is good leadership shows who is really being intellectually dishonest here.

    Maybe instead of focusing on generating false hope, the president should be leading a focused government wide effort to actually improve outcomes and give us a chance to restart the economy. He could have listened to his intelligence agencies who warned him about this in late 2019 or his cabinet officials repeatedly in January. He could have started in January by readying industry to produce more PPE. He could have been working with state and local leaders for months. He could have devoted billions more in resources in testing and it would have been a drop in the bucket compared to the trillions we are losing per quarter. He could have listened to public health experts.

    He could have just shut his stupid mouth and led the leaders lead. But he did none of those things because he is incredibly weak and too much of a Dunning Kruger all star to get out of the way and let the government function free from the interference of a business leader too dumb to figure out how to make money with casinos.

    bearlyamazing said:



    But the main point of the two stories I linked wasn't to defend Trump or say HQL/chorloquine/remdisivir or anything else is a foolproof answer. It was more to point out some of the things some medical professionals are discovering that seems to run counter to original protocol. Things like iron ions detaching from hemoglobin potentially creating oxygen starvation and damaging organs and what might help prevent it, that ventilators may be doing more harm than good in many cases and more.


    We all know your main point was to cherry pick unverified conjecture that you found on the internet because you place more faith in that than what our nation's highest public health officials are telling us. This is entirely consistent with your MO of posting here. You amplify conspiracy theories and partisan fairy tales that support your worldview. You ignore the stuff that doesn't. No one here has ever been fooled by you.
    bearister
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    bearlyamazing said:

    bearister said:

    bearlyamazing said:

    bearister said:

    ",...he was trying to give people hope who were becoming increasingly distressed as this horrible virus has devastated the world."

    I don't believe that tRump has ever been motivated by empathy for his fellow man. With regard to all his thoughts and actions, all roads lead to tRump. He was hoping the drug would be the silver bullet that would end this giant sh@it stain on his presidency and legacy.
    Even taking your asinine, self-serving proposition...

    ....Just nonsensical drivel.


    I used to get a lot of amusement dealing with lawyers I argued against in court that revealed their fragile egos by peppering their counter arguments with personal insults. They just could not stand someone disagreeing with their positions. I just wrote them off as p@ussies that never got over being picked last for teams on the playground.
    ...the ridiculous things you're saying. Got it.


    Well, you are clearly learning because your personal insult per posted comment ratio is moving in the right direction. I never blamed the pandemic on tRump but rather said it was a stain on his presidency and legacy. David Frum articulately explains why:

    Americans Are Paying the Price for Trump's Failures - The Atlantic

    " That the pandemic occurred is not Trump's fault."


    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/americans-are-paying-the-price-for-trumps-failures/609532/
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    Yogi04
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    kelly09 said:

    Anarchistbear said:


    I don't know about you but when I want expert medical advice I always search out sources named bearlyamazing or brushybill
    No, I go to People's Park and seek out Anarchistbear.
    I recommend you show how deep your beliefs are and start attending as many Trump protests as possible. Get out there and mingle with your fellows in close proximity and feel the brotherly love.
    Yogi04
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    bearlyamazing said:

    Instead of trying to be a jerk, just answer the question if you have an answer


    Unit2Sucks
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    More studies have started to come out about the impact of HCQ (with and without Z pak).

    Curious to hear bearlyamazing's learned opinion on what could possibly be going on. Also curious why Trump, Fox News, and all of the republicans I know have stopped talking about the miracle cure that was sure to save us.

    More deaths, no benefit from malaria drug in VA virus study

    Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.

    About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.
    Hydroxychloroquine made no difference in the need for a breathing machine, either.

    Researchers did not track side effects, but noted hints that hydroxychloroquine might have damaged other organs. The drug has long been known to have potentially serious side effects, including altering the heartbeat in a way that could lead to sudden death.

    Earlier this month, scientists in Brazil stopped part of a hydroxychloroquine study after heart rhythm problems developed in one-quarter of people given the higher of two doses being tested.
    Many doctors have been leery of the drug.



    Bobodeluxe
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    Fake news. tRump never encouraged the use of this drug.

    Great Leader has done wonders in his role as Great Leader.
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