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Cal Basketball

My Apologies, Mark Fox

March 24, 2020
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Let me start by saying, I was never a critic — publicly or privately — about Cal Athletic Director Jim Knowlton’s hiring of Mark Fox. The main reason? It was a luke-warm hire. And that’s not meant to be a critique of Knowlton or Fox. There just isn’t much else to feel for a coach that went to the NCAA Tournament twice in nine seasons at the University of Georgia and never won a game in said tournament. Fox had also been out of the job for a year when Cal came calling.

And for that lack of confidence or excitement, I officially apologize to Coach Fox.

Now let’s not get ahead of ourselves. A 14-18 season is nothing to be excited about. But let’s also not forget where Cal had been — a combined 16-47 over the previous two seasons including 5-31 in the Pac-12. Even the most optimistic fans probably didn’t predict much of an improvement considering the hodge-podge roster Fox slung together after many transfers. But Fox has done exactly what you hope a veteran coach would do immediately to a program that hit rock-bottom — he raised the floor in his own way. 

I didn’t think Cal would win much more than eight to 10 games this year and definitely not seven wins in a Pac-12 conference filled with more athletic and talented rosters than Cal’s. And for that lack of confidence in Fox, I again apologize. Despite some heinous losses in conference play, Fox had his guys ready to go the next game. Even after getting swept by a combined 52 points in the state of Oregon, Cal came out in the opening round of the Pac-12 Tournament and planted an uppercut on Stanford’s dwindling NCAA Tournament hopes.

Yes, there are still massive improvements to make. Cal fans expect to be in the NCAA Tournament year-after-year. Yes, some of the questions surrounding Fox (like strong recruiting and offense) haven’t been answered. 

But after Year One of the Fox coaching regime, it’s clear his coaching philosophies have been instilled on the young roster. Let’s take a look at what the data tells us.

2019 Offense versus 2020 Offense

Offensive Category 2019 2020 Difference
Adj. Efficiency 103.5 (192) 101.5 (195) -2.0
Adj. Tempo 66.6 (234) 65.2 (315) -1.4
Avg. Poss. Length 18.6 (298) 19.4 (334) 0.8
Effective FG% 48.6% (272) 46.9% (295) -1.7%
Turnover % 16.4% (48) 19.2% (271) 2.80%
Off. Rebound % 23.3% (317) 25.1% (271) 1.80%
FTA/FGA 34.8 (126) 36.0 (83) 1.2
3P% 35.0% (140) 33.5% (161) -1.50%
2P% 46.5% (301) 45.5% (320) -1.00%
FT% 72.3% (120) 73.8% (85) 1.50%
Block % 8.7% (127) 9.6% (251) 0.90%
Steal % 7.2% (20) 7.4% (24) 0.20%
Non-Stl TO% 9.2% (132) 11.9% (322) 2.70%
3PA/FGA 34.1 (294) 28.4 (339) -5.7
A/FGM 45.7 (314) 41.5 (345) -4.2
3-Pointers (Pt. Dist.) 29.3% (250) 23.7% (318) -5.60%
2-Pointers (Pt. Dist.) 50.2% (145) 54.2% (71) 4.00%
Free-Throws (Pt. Dist.) 20.6% (79) 22.1% (37) 1.50%

First, the bad. Cal’s offense actually digressed slightly this year compared to last year, according to KenPom’s metrics. The adjusted offensive efficiency slipped two full points from 103.5 to 101.5, meaning in 100 possessions, Cal would score 101.5 points. For the third straight year, Cal had the least efficient offense in the Pac-12.

Cal slowed the pace — but not by much at just a little over a possession per game. It shot almost two percentage points worse in effective field goals and turned it over almost three percentage points more per game. The Bears did get to the free-throw line at a slightly higher rate and made a higher percentage of shots once it got there.

But the main issue was one that most fans could see — Cal’s only consistent scoring threat was sophomore wing Matt Bradley. Other players had their moments. Andre Kelly had a few solid games and overall progressed throughout the year. Paris Austin threw together a strong second-half to his senior campaign. Kareem South was good early in the season. And Grant Anticevich had some solid games.

None of them were consistent enough, however, for opponents to take focus away from Bradley. To take a step forward next season, Fox needs to either find an impact scorer in the transfer market or a couple of players on the current roster are going to have to take some steps forward. It could happen. Anticevich isn’t the quickest or most athletic, but he can knock down shots. Kelly could continue to improve. A healthy Kuany Kuany could also help.

The other glaring hole that should be addressed is who backs up Joel Brown at the lead guard position. Fox offered junior college transfer Malik Zachery last week. That could be an option. But it’s something to monitor once recruiting picks back up (assuming it does) after coronavirus restrictions are lifted.

UGA Offensive Averages versus 2020 Cal Offensive Averages

Year AdjT AdjO eFG% TO% OR% FTR 2P% 3P% FT% 3PA% A% APL
2020 Cal Avg. 65.2 101.5 46.90% 19.20% 25.10% 36.0 45.50% 33.50% 73.80% 28.40% 41.50% 19.4
UGA Average 64.0 107.5 48.09% 19.90% 32.94% 41.8 46.71% 34.13% 70.40% 30.34% 53.32% 18.9

The good news is, Cal's offense should improve as a system. In his nine seasons at Georgia, Fox teams averaged an adjusted offensive efficiency of 107.5. Looking at the two charts above, you can see the offense is slowly moving towards the Fox system of getting to the foul line and crashing the offensive glass. Both of those categories ticked up compared to 2019 but both have a ways to go to meet the averages Fox teams maintained at Georgia.

When Fox teams were at their best at Georgia, they were getting to the foul line at very high rates (47.7 in 2015 and 54.1 in 2014). 

2019 Cal Defense versus 2020 Cal Defense

Defensive Category 2019 2020 Difference
Adj. Efficiency 110.3 (286) 100.4 (130) -9.9
Adj. Tempo 66.6 (234) 65.2 (315) -1.4
Avg. Poss. Length 16.8 (44) 17.5 (184) 0.07
Effective FG% 56.9% (348) 49.9% (200) -7.00%
Turnover % 20.5% (62) 17.3% (275) -3.20%
Off. Rebound % 31.4% (289) 26.3% (102) -5.10%
FTA/FGA 36.1 (260) 37.0 (278) 0.9
3P% 38.1% (331) 36.3% (310) -1.80%
2P% 56.7% (344) 47.0% (81) -9.70%
FT% 71.8% (246) 73.6% (309) 1.80%
Block % 10.0% (141) 7.4% (242) -2.60%
Steal % 10.7% (42) 6.1% (349) -4.60%
Non-Stl TO% 9.8% (149) 11.2% (56) 1.40%
3PA/FGA 41.8 (281) 38.0 (190) -3.8
A/FGM 55.3 (271) 51.7 (192) -3.6
3-Pointers (Pt. Dist.) 34.2% (98) 32.6% (109) -1.60%
2-Pointers (Pt. Dist.) 47.3% (262) 46.0% (309) -1.30%
Free-Throws (Pt. Dist.) 18.6% (175) 21.4% (67) 2.80%

Here’s where the name of this article really applies. Cal’s offense was bad last year. And I didn’t expect it to improve much. But it absolutely did. And Fox gets credit for that. It wouldn’t have happened without player buy-in. But player buy-in doesn’t happen without some coaching. In one season, Cal’s adjusted defensive efficiency went from 110.3 to 100.4. Opponents were averaging 10 points less per 100 possessions. 

Last season, Cal was good at forcing turnovers and not good at basically everything else. This season Cal wasn’t forcing turnovers at the same rate, but they were creating tougher shots for opponents — especially inside the three-point arc, where teams shot almost 10% worse than they did against the Bears last season.

The perimeter was a big issue early but stabilized. But the pack-line defense Fox instilled worked. Cal’s best games were ones when it bogged down other teams and made the game a rock fight. That comes from solid interior defense.

UGA Average Defenses versus 2020 Cal Average Defense

Year AdjD eFG% TO% OR% FTR 2P% 3P% Blk% 3PA% A% APL 2FP%
2020 Cal Avg. 100.4 49.90% 17.30% 26.30% 37.0 47.00% 36.30% 7.40% 38.00% 51.70% 17.5 22.90%
UGA Average 97.3 46.07% 16.99% 29.54% 36.3 44.39% 32.70% 12.33% 35.63% 46.42% 17.8 7.10%

There are also some improvements to be made on defense to hit Fox's Georgia averages. In nine seasons at Georgia, the Bulldogs averages an adjusted defensive efficiency rate of 97.3 — about three points better than this year’s Bears squad. Fox’s last team at Georgia was probably his best defensively. That year the Bulldogs were very bad at forcing teams into turnovers but incredibly good at making them miss. That’s something that will likely continue to be a trend in Fox-coached teams.

Cal’s improvements on defense were what helped this team over-achieve. It was a very flawed offensive team. But when it played solid defense, the Bears could keep themselves close. I didn’t expect Fox to get that sort of buy-in this quickly. And I didn’t expect 14 wins. I didn’t expect Cal to finish ahead of Mike Hopkins and the Washington Huskies or Kyle Smith and the Washington State Cougars — both of which are coaches I think many Cal fans (myself included) would’ve picked over Fox. And for all of that, once again, my apologies, Mark Fox.

Discussion from...

My Apologies, Mark Fox

52,392 Views | 168 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by HoopDreams
RedlessWardrobe
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Maybe Gilligan himself.
BeachedBear
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oskidunker said:

Maybe the Professor from Gilligans Island.
Seems more of a Ginger, no?
Eastern Oregon Bear
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Professor Harold Hill said:

If your goal is just to write articles worthy of CGB, maybe you should do that.

If you can't even be troubled to re-read your own material to check for errors, why should anyone pay this site to read your opinions.

P.S. Mark Fox doesn't care what you think. You are not remotely on his radar.
Whoa, Mr. "professor" take a step back and chill for a minute.

With all due respect:
Who the hell are you?

If your goal is to get on this board and just slam somebody, at least have the decency to be a tad bit more specific in your reason for doing it. i.e. "material errors" - would it be too much to explain what you're referring to?

Also isn't it just possible that the title of the article was more symbolic than something to be taken completely literally?

I for one, thought the article was quite interesting. If you respond I would appreciate it if your statements are a little more analytical and a little less emotional. Thanks.
He's a troll who joined in early March and has done nothing but post on the topic of politics. Ignore it.
He's a frustrated Bernie Bro that's letting his electoral bitterness seep into other topics now it appears. He also creates new accounts a couple of times a week all resembling Professor <insert name here>. He probably has a couple of dozen by now. Best to not take anything posted under the Professor handle too seriously.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Chapman_is_Gone said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Professor Harold Hill said:

If your goal is just to write articles worthy of CGB, maybe you should do that.

If you can't even be troubled to re-read your own material to check for errors, why should anyone pay this site to read your opinions.

P.S. Mark Fox doesn't care what you think. You are not remotely on his radar.
Whoa, Mr. "professor" take a step back and chill for a minute.

With all due respect:
Who the hell are you?

If your goal is to get on this board and just slam somebody, at least have the decency to be a tad bit more specific in your reason for doing it. i.e. "material errors" - would it be too much to explain what you're referring to?

Also isn't it just possible that the title of the article was more symbolic than something to be taken completely literally?

I for one, thought the article was quite interesting. If you respond I would appreciate it if your statements are a little more analytical and a little less emotional. Thanks.
He's a troll who joined in early March and has done nothing but post on the topic of politics. Ignore it.


Criticizing the post is completely fair, but you guys are completely wrong on the Professor. He is a long, long, long time poster who has thousands of sports posts under different names.
oskidunker
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Well that is not very helpful
socaltownie
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OaktownBear said:

Chapman_is_Gone said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Professor Harold Hill said:

If your goal is just to write articles worthy of CGB, maybe you should do that.

If you can't even be troubled to re-read your own material to check for errors, why should anyone pay this site to read your opinions.

P.S. Mark Fox doesn't care what you think. You are not remotely on his radar.
Whoa, Mr. "professor" take a step back and chill for a minute.

With all due respect:
Who the hell are you?

If your goal is to get on this board and just slam somebody, at least have the decency to be a tad bit more specific in your reason for doing it. i.e. "material errors" - would it be too much to explain what you're referring to?

Also isn't it just possible that the title of the article was more symbolic than something to be taken completely literally?

I for one, thought the article was quite interesting. If you respond I would appreciate it if your statements are a little more analytical and a little less emotional. Thanks.
He's a troll who joined in early March and has done nothing but post on the topic of politics. Ignore it.


Criticizing the post is completely fair, but you guys are completely wrong on the Professor. He is a long, long, long time poster who has thousands of sports posts under different names.
Amy?
Take care of your Chicken
Civil Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie said:

OaktownBear said:

Chapman_is_Gone said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Professor Harold Hill said:

If your goal is just to write articles worthy of CGB, maybe you should do that.

If you can't even be troubled to re-read your own material to check for errors, why should anyone pay this site to read your opinions.

P.S. Mark Fox doesn't care what you think. You are not remotely on his radar.
Whoa, Mr. "professor" take a step back and chill for a minute.

With all due respect:
Who the hell are you?

If your goal is to get on this board and just slam somebody, at least have the decency to be a tad bit more specific in your reason for doing it. i.e. "material errors" - would it be too much to explain what you're referring to?

Also isn't it just possible that the title of the article was more symbolic than something to be taken completely literally?

I for one, thought the article was quite interesting. If you respond I would appreciate it if your statements are a little more analytical and a little less emotional. Thanks.
He's a troll who joined in early March and has done nothing but post on the topic of politics. Ignore it.


Criticizing the post is completely fair, but you guys are completely wrong on the Professor. He is a long, long, long time poster who has thousands of sports posts under different names.
Amy?
Think long time Cal curmudgeon that thinks by adding "professor" to his moniker maybe somebody might start taking him seriously.
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Civil Bear said:

socaltownie said:

OaktownBear said:

Chapman_is_Gone said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Professor Harold Hill said:

If your goal is just to write articles worthy of CGB, maybe you should do that.

If you can't even be troubled to re-read your own material to check for errors, why should anyone pay this site to read your opinions.

P.S. Mark Fox doesn't care what you think. You are not remotely on his radar.
Whoa, Mr. "professor" take a step back and chill for a minute.

With all due respect:
Who the hell are you?

If your goal is to get on this board and just slam somebody, at least have the decency to be a tad bit more specific in your reason for doing it. i.e. "material errors" - would it be too much to explain what you're referring to?

Also isn't it just possible that the title of the article was more symbolic than something to be taken completely literally?

I for one, thought the article was quite interesting. If you respond I would appreciate it if your statements are a little more analytical and a little less emotional. Thanks.
He's a troll who joined in early March and has done nothing but post on the topic of politics. Ignore it.


Criticizing the post is completely fair, but you guys are completely wrong on the Professor. He is a long, long, long time poster who has thousands of sports posts under different names.
Amy?
Think long time Cal curmudgeon that thinks by adding "professor" to his moniker maybe somebody might start taking him seriously.
I am going with Amy because it brightens my mood and makes me laugh.
Take care of your Chicken
Intuit
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professor shocky5?
AunBear89
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The professor likes pic-a-nic baskets.
"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." -- (maybe) Benjamin Disraeli, popularized by Mark Twain
oskidunker
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I dreamed I was in Haas and Wyking was the coach as their had been a temporal anomaly created by Trump after a deal made with Q so we could prevent the virus. Time was rolled back and we were in a parallel universe.

The corner three was wide open and the score was Cal 10 Usc 61. We left at halftime, again.
bluesaxe
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socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?





bluesaxe
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socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.

socaltownie
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bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.
Take care of your Chicken
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
Take care of your Chicken
HoopDreams
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
so if someone here doesn't like Turner, you assume it's because we are Cal snobs?

I don't particularly like Turner's attitude, but that's just one factor. For me, it was less about Turner, and more about Decuire who I thought was better than Turner... all factors considered.

Painting people's intentions with a single brush, who disagree with you is not a good look
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
so if someone here doesn't like Turner, you assume it's because we are Cal snobs?

I don't particularly like Turner's attitude, but that's just one factor. For me, it was less about Turner, and more about Decuire who I thought was better than Turner... all factors considered.

Painting people's intentions with a single brush, who disagree with you is not a good look
There were a number of posters who suggested that working at UCI taught one NOTHING about working at UCB.
Take care of your Chicken
HoopDreams
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie said:

HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
so if someone here doesn't like Turner, you assume it's because we are Cal snobs?

I don't particularly like Turner's attitude, but that's just one factor. For me, it was less about Turner, and more about Decuire who I thought was better than Turner... all factors considered.

Painting people's intentions with a single brush, who disagree with you is not a good look
There were a number of posters who suggested that working at UCI taught one NOTHING about working at UCB.


Who were these 'number of posters' and what were their numbers? 2?
socaltownie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
so if someone here doesn't like Turner, you assume it's because we are Cal snobs?

I don't particularly like Turner's attitude, but that's just one factor. For me, it was less about Turner, and more about Decuire who I thought was better than Turner... all factors considered.

Painting people's intentions with a single brush, who disagree with you is not a good look
There were a number of posters who suggested that working at UCI taught one NOTHING about working at UCB.


Who were these 'number of posters' and what were their numbers? 2?
Well here are some QUICK hits from the Forum Search function.....

"
calbear80
6:51p, 3/24/19


Ok, holding my nose, I have decided to root for the Nike U because:

1. If UCI wins, Russel Turner will be out of our reach/budget as a candidate for Cal.

2. I assume if a Pac-12 team wins, Cal somehow will get more money (Am I right that the team that advances gets more money and a part that money gets distributed to the conference schools?).

Yes, I am very Cal centric!!

Go Bears!

P.S. I hope we hire a good coach and be in the NCAA next year."

or....

"
calbear80
6:30p, 3/24/19


I am at the game.

Those rejected by UC Berkeley and then rejected by UC Westwood and then rejected by UC San Diego are the 13 seed. Anteater is the second worst mascot after Banana Slugs. "Eater Nation" is so lame.

Basketball team built by Uncle Phil with the money made off child labor in the third world countries and masquerading around as a university is the 12 seed.

Is there a scenario in college basketball that both teams could be decleared losers?

Go Bears!"

or,,,,

"
UrsaMajor
In reply to socaltownie 9:49a, 3/21/17


To be fair--don't know if he's enamored of them or that's just the best he can get to Irvine (Anteaters? For real?"

or

There are others. It is clunky to go fin them.
Take care of your Chicken
Civil Bear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
socaltownie said:

HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

HoopDreams said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
so if someone here doesn't like Turner, you assume it's because we are Cal snobs?

I don't particularly like Turner's attitude, but that's just one factor. For me, it was less about Turner, and more about Decuire who I thought was better than Turner... all factors considered.

Painting people's intentions with a single brush, who disagree with you is not a good look
There were a number of posters who suggested that working at UCI taught one NOTHING about working at UCB.


Who were these 'number of posters' and what were their numbers? 2?
Well here are some QUICK hits from the Forum Search function.....

"
calbear80
6:51p, 3/24/19


Ok, holding my nose, I have decided to root for the Nike U because:

1. If UCI wins, Russel Turner will be out of our reach/budget as a candidate for Cal.

2. I assume if a Pac-12 team wins, Cal somehow will get more money (Am I right that the team that advances gets more money and a part that money gets distributed to the conference schools?).

Yes, I am very Cal centric!!

Go Bears!

P.S. I hope we hire a good coach and be in the NCAA next year."

or....

"
calbear80
6:30p, 3/24/19


I am at the game.

Those rejected by UC Berkeley and then rejected by UC Westwood and then rejected by UC San Diego are the 13 seed. Anteater is the second worst mascot after Banana Slugs. "Eater Nation" is so lame.

Basketball team built by Uncle Phil with the money made off child labor in the third world countries and masquerading around as a university is the 12 seed.

Is there a scenario in college basketball that both teams could be decleared losers?

Go Bears!"

or,,,,

"
UrsaMajor
In reply to socaltownie 9:49a, 3/21/17


To be fair--don't know if he's enamored of them or that's just the best he can get to Irvine (Anteaters? For real?"

or

There are others. It is clunky to go fin them.
So the number is "zero"? One poster who wanted Turner and another that said something about who knows what over three years ago?
Yogi38
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socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
IMO, football and basketball are apples and oranges. A lot more talented white kids in football and a lot less interest in academics with uber talented basketball recruits.
socaltownie
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Garou said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
IMO, football and basketball are apples and oranges. A lot more talented white kids in football and a lot less interest in academics with uber talented basketball recruits.
Possibly. I think the bigger issues is that # of rookie contracts * value of contracts > basketball than in football. That, in turn, creates this whole culture of hanger ons that hope to score some chicken by a kid getting to the show and signing for 5 million and just a little bit of that sugar coming their way. If you watched 60 minutes on african recruits last week (which just BARELY scratched surface) you should have been Shaking your head. In short, I am not sure it is the PLAYERS but rather the rest of the subculture that creates an incentive to push schools like Zona - and that isn't even that it is the best for helping a kid get to the show - but rather that it maximizes their marketability and future earnings than a school with less exposure.
Take care of your Chicken
calumnus
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Garou said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
IMO, football and basketball are apples and oranges. A lot more talented white kids in football and a lot less interest in academics with uber talented basketball recruits.


Basketball just needs a few talented kids.Football needs dozens. Shoot, Navy once had a great team with David Robinson plus 4 midshipmen.
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
1. I have no problem with hiring a coach from another UC and I haven't heard others that do. They may not like Turner but it has nothing to do with Irvine.

2. Cal is the flagship.
peterprescott
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calumnus
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OaktownBear said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

4thGenCal said:

Good post and accurate, too many people on this string rip on Cuonzo for leaving us high and dry and not really understanding the factors that led him to leave. He wanted to build a winner here (his wife LOVED the area) and he decided to leave mainly because he had several (5 players) players over his last two seasons that wanted to play for him, but the administration turned down. Other factors included not having a contract extension signed, the lack of administration support during the Hufnagel debacle and no clear path to having a practice facility(that is a Huge factor in many recruiting decisions right or wrong). He was and is a very good devoted coach whom the players almost universally respected and appreciated his demanding approach (both on the court and in the classroom)
+1

Martin wasn't the guy but the KIND of guy that I really do believe will ultimately be the kind of coach that can win a cal - a guy who can relate to kids from the East Bay, who plays hard nose basketball, and who has NBA experience so he can talk about what it takes, what is realistic, and the value of education and school for making it.

Yeah - I actually think that ROMAR is the kind of guy who could also just kill it at Cal. Depending on the fox experiment (and how he does at Pepperdine) i hope that we kick the tires on Lorenzo.
+1 to what, though? We still don't have a practice facility. That's part of what I'm talking about as an impediment to a quick fix and I guess you agree at least that it's an issue. The lack of administrative support, well that's also a reality. So why would Romar kill at Cal when Martin couldn't? What's going to change?

Martin as good coach? Well, I'll just say I completely disagree. Didn't show it at Cal, isn't showing it at Missouri.

I totally agree with your other post that we should be owning the East Bay, and the mentoring/outreach idea re the Soldiers is a good one, but this is still going to be a tough university to get kids into and through unless they are the right kids, and I'm not talking about how tough they are on the court. It's a waste of time to recruit players you can't get admitted, and a waste of time to recruit kids and get them admitted if they're going to struggle and leave. My belief is that Martin did not take the basic step of learning where the lines were drawn BEFORE recruiting kids he couldn't get into the school. And ended up with bad fallbacks as a result. That's where I think he was a recruiting failure. You can blame lack of "support," but why was he surprised?

This program needs some stability and some investment before a dynamic recruiter type coach will change things for the long run imo. There's no magic bullet here.


Again - if Cal wants to be tougher than UCLA and be all high and mighty, Great. It should go play in the Ivy and we should reconcile ourselves to sucking.

But I don't think that is true. Look at Wilcox. He is able to get kids that are doing fine in school and has talent at least in the top half of the conference. So it can be done, it doesn't have to be by a stellar recruiter but it DOES suggest there are real advantages (like Wilcox has) to a guy with west coast ties AND who understands the UC system (why I remain high on Russel Turner but the nose in the air Cal crowd would never accept a guy from Irvine since they think of themselves as the flagship (in a sytem that doesn't have a flagship).
1. I have no problem with hiring a coach from another UC and I haven't heard others that do. They may not like Turner but it has nothing to do with Irvine.

2. Cal is the flagship.


All else considered, success at UCSB or UCI (or UCLA) and familiarity with UC and California recruiting is a big positive. No one held that against Turner or The Kicker. I just don't like those guys despite the advantages. Most of us just liked DeCuire a lot more.
bluesaxe
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socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
HoopDreams
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good post blue
IssyBear
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bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.
HoopDreams
How long do you want to ignore this user?
IssyBear said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.

our team with the 4 nba players got us a 4 seed. our team that lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament only had 2 nba players

but I get your point
bluesaxe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
IssyBear said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.

I think circumstances were extenuating in that particular instance, but the next year we had two and went nowhere.
SFCityBear
How long do you want to ignore this user?
HoopDreams said:

IssyBear said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.

our team with the 4 nba players got us a 4 seed. our team that lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament only had 2 nba players

but I get your point
What you said is true, but that team also had Jordan Mathews who transferred to Gonzaga and started for the Zags as they won the WCC, won the WCC tournament, and finished as NCAA Runnerup. losing only to UNC in the final.


HoopDreams
How long do you want to ignore this user?
SFCityBear said:

HoopDreams said:

IssyBear said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.

our team with the 4 nba players got us a 4 seed. our team that lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament only had 2 nba players

but I get your point
What you said is true, but that team also had Jordan Mathews who transferred to Gonzaga and started for the Zags as they won the WCC, won the WCC tournament, and finished as NCAA Runnerup. losing only to UNC in the final.
if your point is that we should have beat hawaii anyway, then I agree. the problem was at PG. Singer did well, but he got in early foul trouble and sat. Coach then tried Chauca who could not compete, and even tried Brown at PG, and we know how that went.

in addition, the lack of having wallace and bird forced coach to play role players domingo and roger more. Of the 3 lightly used players to play to fill the gap of the starters going down, here was their stats:

Roger 26 minutes - 0-5 shooting, 3-6 FT, 2 RB, 2 ASSTs, 1 TO, 2 FLs - 3 pts
Domingo 14 minutes - 0-4 shooting, 2 RB, 1 TO, 1 FL - 0 pts
Chauca 8 minutes - 0-2 shooting, 1 RB, 1 ASST, 1 TO, 1 FL - 0 pts

That's 48 minutes going 0-11 shooting - 3 pts

Mathews who you mentioned played 31 minutes - 9-15, including 3-8 from 3, 2-2 FT, 4 RBs, 1 ASST, 1 Steal, 1 TO, 3 fouls - 23 pts

Singer 30 minutes - 5-9, 5 RBs, 0 ASSTs, 2 Steal, 5 fouls

King/Rooks combo 36 minutes - 3-4, 5-9 FTs, 5 RBs, 1 BLK, 2 TOs, 4 fouls - 11 pts

Rabb 38 minutes - 5-11, 3-4 FTs, 12 RBs, 2 ASSTs, 1 BLK, 1 TO, 3 fouls - 13 pts

Brown 17 minutes - 1-6, 2-2 FTs, 2 RBs, 7 TOs, 5 fouls - 4 pts

----

Hawaii

G Smith 6-8, 7-8 FTs - 19 pts
G Bobbitt 7-16, 2-4 FTs, 7 RBs, 4 ASSTs - 17 pts
F Jankovic 5-9, 6-6 FTs, 5 RBs, 16 pts

1. So their senior PG outplayed our senior backup guard and our two rarely used PGs (Chauca and Brown)
2. Jankovic played Rabb even
3. Mathews was the only one who really showed up
4. Our bench played horribly
5. Brown played the worst game of his college career (and only 17 minutes)

AND our coach did a terrible job

I still believe that we win going away if we had Wallace for the game. If we had both Wallace and Bird, we would have gone to the sweet sixteen




socaltownie
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bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
1) Two things.

Bo Ryan IS unique and I am waiting to hear about your other 5 programs.

HE coached in the University of Wisconsin SYSTEM ONLY starting in 1976.
He won FOUR national titles in D3 at a University of Wisconsin Plateville.
He does 2 years at U of W Milk
He comes to coach at Madison - a school he was a former assistant coach for 8 years (the 8 prior to Platesville.

He takes over a program that had been to the Final Four the ****ing year before under Bennet - ANOTHER guy who had deep roots in Wisconsin (and of course beat Jason Kidd's Bears).


There is NO ONE that was EVER suggested in the various "who will be our next coach" threads with that kind of background. It is a unique situation - a guy essentially who "IS" baskeball in a state coaching at the clear flagship university in the state. It lets him coach "his way" which has been taken up by his annoited successor.

2) "diamonds in the rough"

God I hate that line. It is so trite. Now lets be more precise. _IF_ what you mean is some kid like Sam Singer that gets coached up to the best of what god can give him PLEASE FOR THE LOVE ALL THINGS NO. That doesn't work in basketball. The sport puts a premium on god given ability. Can it be wasted? Sure. But ultimately physical limitations are going to be a problem - especially when the other 11 coaches in your conference are also trying to "coach em up" and are not horrible at it. Arguably the conference is as deep as it ever has been in guys that can teach.

Now if what you mean is finding kids that are overlooked for whatever reason but have NBA capable games I am ALL FOR THAT. Lets look at 2. Close to home, I am all for finding kids like Allen Crabbe who was pissed that UCLA didn't offer. Great find. Glad he landed at Cal. Or, program building Kawhi Leonard, who Fischer was all over from Junior High and essentially made SDSU basketball.

But ultimately this is one of those bar room conversations which frankly bores me. But what is critical to understand is that MY WAY REQUIRES THE UNIVERSITY GET SERIOUS. Build a practice facility, revise admission rules so they are no more rigorous than UCLA. Really look at the Grad Transfer market and try to find a pathway that lets you actually sign the kind of kids that WOULD benefit from a Cal grad degree and make significant contributions to the university's athletic success. I really don't care about this debate about how to win. Frankly I know I am right because NO ONE OTHER THAN WISCONSIN has done it with sub-NBA talent. What I am much more interested in is breaking down the structural barriers to pursing that path....or just admitting that Cal doesn't give a rats ass about fielding a winning BB program.

Take care of your Chicken
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
HoopDreams said:

SFCityBear said:

HoopDreams said:

IssyBear said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

bluesaxe said:

socaltownie said:

Let me say something controversial - I think the reason that the Wisky strategy DOESN"T work in the Pac-12

1) Bo is a once in a generation coach. You really should read up on how he built that program and the VERY long and deep success he had at lower levels with that approach.
2) I am not convinced that anyone in the Big10 recruits at the level that UCLA, Arizona and Oregon do on a year in-year out basis.

I love this site.

https://basketball.realgm.com/ncaa/conferences/Big-Ten-Conference/2/nba-players

40 Big 10 players in the NBA. 62 Pac12 players in the NBA

Again, repeat after me.

Many (most?) years Cal has to play UCLA, Zona, and Oregon 6 games. Sometimes we only have to play them 5. A very few only 4. To get off the seed of death Cal either has to run the table on a BRUTAL OOC schedule (when they have no drawing power and thus few invites to the made for TV tournies and home/aways in December) OR split those games. If you are on the seed of death (7 through 10) it means, in the current Pod system, you are almost guaranteed a brutal second game should you be able to win the first (essentially a 1 or a 2 getting a near home game where they may not have had to fly and usually have 90% of the fans in the stands - sometimes in a stadium they know and have played in (see Greenville)

Now can the scrappy team from hickory high beat, on any given night, a team of wildcats stuffed with 2 or 3 first round picks? Sure. Why sports are great. But you need more than 1 win. You gotta have 3 or 4 or else...again....seed of death.

I just am at a loss as to why people on this site do not get this. Blue and gold glasses? Pete Newell nostalgia? Forgetting that our conference championship came at a VERY down time for both Zona and UCLA and prior to the true emergence of Nike U.

Now maybe it could be cause some posters are FINE with getting in as an 8. Honestly I find that nearly as depressing as missing the entire tournie cause it isn't fun to watch cal get stripped in the backcourt 3 successive possessions by UCON in a game that essentially was at UCON.
Bo Ryan hasn't coached that team for the last four years and they're still doing fine. And the Big Ten is a far better conference than the Pac-12 and has been for a while so I don't get the brutal schedule argument.

Drop the hickory high bull**** for a minute. Ask yourself, can Cal legitimately expect to build a program on top level recruits when we have tougher academics to deal with and don't have the amenities to offer that the competition does? And when we've outright sucked the last few years? How much are donors willing to put up for a new practice facility, another coach buyout, probably another AD?

Yeah, building a program like Wisconsin takes time, takes a good ability to spot talent to develop outside the usual top-100 list, takes a good coaching staff able to develop players, and a strong regional recruiting program. And it isn't clear Fox is a guy who can do that. But this discussion seems totally binary in your mind. Either magically grab top 50 recruits all the time or be an 8 seed at best. But look at last year's results. Purdue had the 34th ranked class in 2017 and 49th in 2018 and was a final four team. Texas Tech was 39th and 33rd. Virginia Tech 18th and 54th. Obviously all those teams had talent. They also had good coaching. And it would be better to get more top ranked players in the mix, which they are doing now. But you have to have a base to build on and we do not. So instead of assuming everyone who favors a longer-term build wants to be scrappy underdogs forever, maybe you should consider if your premise is even relevant right now.
The numbers say otherwise. 62 current NBA players from the PAC 12 while 40 from the FOURTEEN team big 10. Big 10 has done better in tournament time - but I think a pretty clear argument that the raw TALENT at the Pac12 has been, based on who is getting paid serious money to play by the best talent evaluaters on the planet, a more talented conference.

Again, we can ALWAYS find a team in any particular year or even a couple of years that does well. Talent develops, a kid is undervalued, a player doesn't play AAU, he grows 6 inches and suddenly is a monster. These are all good stories.

But you are not building a PROGRAM over a set of years because to get off the seed of death (because it is a really hard truth to lean into) that you have to split against.....

A) A team which clearly is a criminal enterprise in Arizona with a leadership who doesn't give a rats ass and which is not a selective (in any stretch of the imagination) R1 institution
2) A team which is an extension of a multi Billion dollar shoe company whose mission is not to educate its players but to promote a brand by winning at any price necessary
3) A school which is frankly in its twilight but which is the preeminent school in a major metro area of 10 million and which has a legacy of NBA stars that are deeply committed to the institution and willing to encourage recruits to put on Bruin Blue

And finally a conference, because it is on the west coast, is somewhat "cheap" and which doesn't travel strongly doesn't get as a strong a November and December schedule as the Big 10, Big 12 or ACC (and increasingly SEC)

These are not facts I am particularly happy about. But they are facts. You don't get to choose the ground you fight on. Simply put - unless Cal has a pathway to having talent ABOUT as good as the top 3 there really isn't a path forward than seeds of death every 3-4 years.

BTW - One of the reasons I mistakenly thought Martin was the guy (and I think could have been the guy except for Williams & Dirks cutting his knees off) was NOT because he recruited Ivan and Brown - it was the guys that got nixed by the admin - hard nosed kids that wanted to play in the East Bay. Think a multitude of Jason Kidds.

And btw - in case you want to have fun. Here is a great piece about an "All Oakland" team. Funny that only ONE of those kids went to Cal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/35724-what-if-the-nba-all-oakland-team
I'm not sure which local kids you think Martin would have landed with administration support. There are not a multitude of Jason Kidds in any town in this universe, but I don't recall East Bay kids who would have gone to Cal absent administration issues. Oscar Frayer? Ben Kone?

That BR list was interesting if you like history, but c'mon. Hook Mitchell? What does he have to do with this discussion? And none of them are even playing any more.

On the bigger issue, you seem to think that I'm advocating not having talent. That's not the case, as I've said repeatedly. But I wouldn't use NBA players as a measure of success. I'd use winning teams as the measure. I really don't care what players do after they leave college for the purpose of this discussion. But more to the point, you don't say how you would get that NBA talent to Cal. You've also argued that such talent predominantly comes from top-50 recruiting targets. They aren't coming here without the investment I mentioned, and even then only after that takes hold. So what's YOUR pathway to talent acquisition? I can't recall you ever describing it. I've named a lot of programs that started by building over time, became successful and now can reload each year. You have not named a single program that has a model you think Cal could use right now, given where Cal is. So how does this magic happen?






Lets unpack.

First - I want to be VERY clear (and I have been but I think sometimes you disregard this). It isn't about TEAMS....it is about PROGRAMS. What do I mean by that distinction? Anyone (really) can find lightening in a bottle every now in then. Case in point...DAVIDSON. They went to the Elite 8 in 2008. They haven't won a tournament game sense and have make 4 appearances in 12 years. Yeah - we know who played point for them. What I want is a PROGRAM that does well - over a consistent number of YEARS.

Second - you really haven't give us PROGRAMS. We either hear about Newell or a mistaken data free analysis of Wisconsin. I have tried to show you why the program Bo Ryan built (and now Gard - who was Assistant under Bo for FOURTEEN YEARS) has some very unique qualities rather than just "well coached" (which they are).

Third - Lets be clear since you like twisting words. Martin had 3 years to see if he would work. Arguably really 2 and a case could be made for 1.5 since the first year is tough and he had checked out by about January 15th the last. Again, we heard of at least FIVE kids that martin wanted that the admin nixed. Maybe they should have. I don't know. But I do know that it is a hard measure to judge him against when Williams/Dirks wanted him to recruit "their way" (and sometimes I think yours).

Fourth - you rightly ask me my pathway. It is owning the East Bay - and lets make a VERY fine point of it since apparently I have to hit you over the head with a 2 by 4 - that means being an attractive school and program to African American kids from Northern California that sadly sometimes are NOT made to feel welcome on Cal's campus when compared to UCLA, Arizona and USC. Sad but very true. But that is the pathway and it needs to be leaned into hard if you wish to compete. I put that list to show that unlike a lot of schools (UCLA being a prime example) that own their backyard for the best talent Cal has rarely done so. Lets imagine what the program would have looked like if, for example, Monty hadn't been a putz and gotten Aaron Gordon - a kid from a family of ****ing engineers of all things - to consider Cal and then paired Gordon with Raab and Brown. My heart goes pitter pat.


I don't think you get my point or what I wish for. Your first sentence is exactly what I've been saying. What I wish for is a coach to build a program that is sustainably successful. I mentioned winning teams as a measure of success as a point of disagreement with you defining success as players sent to the NBA. I did not say a winning year or two is enough. My point was I don't give a damn if individual players go to the NBA - I care if they win here. I want a winning program here. The question is how to make that happen given where we are now, which as you've admitted has problems.

I have never brought up Pete Newell. Not once. Ever. Other than to say his teams would be demolished by any modern team. I used Wisconsin as one example of five or six different schools, because they are PROGRAMS who began by building a foundation, because they recruit to the culture they've instilled and the style they play. Because it took time and none were originally built on highly ranked recruiting classes. Because they had coaches who were given enough leeway to do that. Because they started at a place where they couldn't necessarily compete for the top 50 or top 100 players and still managed to have success. Don't get fixated on the one coach you seem to think is unique. He's not.

I've also said we should own the East Bay, and for that matter the Bay Area. But to do that we need to be in a place where those players should even want to consider Cal. As nice an idea as "owning" the local area is, the kids who can come to Cal, deal with academics and make an impact are not numerous (true of any area you name). And for those that do exist, why would they want to come to Cal? We are a sub-par program with sub-par facilities, tough academics and a tough admissions process. So we're probably not going to be high on the lists of the players you want unless we've changed those things. How do you do that?

My view is that you have to start by identifying players who are more diamonds in the rough and develop them, and those kids have to buy into the culture you're trying to instill. Do that, have some success, and players will have more reason to consider coming here. Once again, I'm not saying Fox is the right guy to do that, but I think the program needs to be on better footing with some continuity before there's something to sell to those kids.

Now, I'd rather have a bunch of money come flowing in, we build great facilities, we get awesome administrative support, have a huge budget for assistants, travel, recruiting, and all the stuff the schools you mentioned earlier already have. Then you might be able to jump straight to playing against the big boys. But I don't see that happening, which is why I'm looking at it the way I do.

Aaron Gordon would have been a great get. Monty was not a good recruiter. I don't think anyone is arguing over that one.
I couldn't agree more. Udub just had their prized 10 star freshmen declare for the NBA draft and is expected to go early in the first round. Udub finished last in the PAC-12. Sports journalists in Seattle are asking if Udub should finally abandon the one-and-done approach they have been following in recent years.

Just a few years ago, we had a team with 4 players that went on to play some in the NBA. We lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament.

our team with the 4 nba players got us a 4 seed. our team that lost in the 1st round of the NCAA tournament only had 2 nba players

but I get your point
What you said is true, but that team also had Jordan Mathews who transferred to Gonzaga and started for the Zags as they won the WCC, won the WCC tournament, and finished as NCAA Runnerup. losing only to UNC in the final.
if your point is that we should have beat hawaii anyway, then I agree. the problem was at PG. Singer did well, but he got in early foul trouble and sat. Coach then tried Chauca who could not compete, and even tried Brown at PG, and we know how that went.

in addition, the lack of having wallace and bird forced coach to play role players domingo and roger more. Of the 3 lightly used players to play to fill the gap of the starters going down, here was their stats:

Roger 26 minutes - 0-5 shooting, 3-6 FT, 2 RB, 2 ASSTs, 1 TO, 2 FLs - 3 pts
Domingo 14 minutes - 0-4 shooting, 2 RB, 1 TO, 1 FL - 0 pts
Chauca 8 minutes - 0-2 shooting, 1 RB, 1 ASST, 1 TO, 1 FL - 0 pts

That's 48 minutes going 0-11 shooting - 3 pts

Mathews who you mentioned played 31 minutes - 9-15, including 3-8 from 3, 2-2 FT, 4 RBs, 1 ASST, 1 Steal, 1 TO, 3 fouls - 23 pts

Singer 30 minutes - 5-9, 5 RBs, 0 ASSTs, 2 Steal, 5 fouls

King/Rooks combo 36 minutes - 3-4, 5-9 FTs, 5 RBs, 1 BLK, 2 TOs, 4 fouls - 11 pts

Rabb 38 minutes - 5-11, 3-4 FTs, 12 RBs, 2 ASSTs, 1 BLK, 1 TO, 3 fouls - 13 pts

Brown 17 minutes - 1-6, 2-2 FTs, 2 RBs, 7 TOs, 5 fouls - 4 pts

----

Hawaii

G Smith 6-8, 7-8 FTs - 19 pts
G Bobbitt 7-16, 2-4 FTs, 7 RBs, 4 ASSTs - 17 pts
F Jankovic 5-9, 6-6 FTs, 5 RBs, 16 pts

1. So their senior PG outplayed our senior backup guard and our two rarely used PGs (Chauca and Brown)
2. Jankovic played Rabb even
3. Mathews was the only one who really showed up
4. Our bench played horribly
5. Brown played the worst game of his college career (and only 17 minutes)

AND our coach did a terrible job

I still believe that we win going away if we had Wallace for the game. If we had both Wallace and Bird, we would have gone to the sweet sixteen




Yeah, the people that continually point to the Hawaii loss as somehow showing that having McDonald's All Americans like Brown, Rabb and Bird is not a viable path ignore what actually happened.
 
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