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The Cal Men's Basketball Head Coaching Search

March 26, 2023
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When the past six years mark the absolute nadir for not only your basketball program but arguably any Power 5 basketball program in history, the search for new leadership takes on extra weight.

When Mark Fox was let go on March  9th, it wasn’t a surprise for anyone and Cal’s Athletic Department was prepared to kick off a very different search process than what brought Fox to Berkeley back in 2019.   That was a quick process, in which Athletic Director Jim Knowlton operated in an autonomous fashion, aided by Collegiate Sports Associates (CSA), an executive search firm that specializes in AD, Football, and Basketball head coaching searches.

While CSA is again involved in this search (and that is surprising given the last result with their involvement), Knowlton took a very different approach to replace Fox.  This time, he was prepared with a list of targets, a list that grew with input from CSA as well as from prominent basketball experts close to Cal.   He fielded calls and sat down with a large number of donors who were galvanized to put the program on a stronger footing both to help attract a top-tier coach as well as to support that individual once they were in place.   

Knowlton further reached out to former players to let them know that he wanted a more inclusive program going forward and that their involvement was critical to get the Bears back to the level of solid though not spectacular success they had enjoyed for over thirty years.  

Before kicking off the search, Knowlton wanted to make sure that he had both internal and external support for more funding and resources to support a program that had struggled in part due to below-market salaries for its coaches, recruiting, team travel to go along with a lack of a dedicated practice facility (all of which are table stakes in today's Power 5 basketball world).   Reports suggest that significant University support is now in place to go along with potential donor pledges for both NIL and a dedicated discretionary fund (the equivalent of Cal’s Caliber fund for Football).    Cal’s notorious challenging admissions were reminded of the academic success currently being enjoyed throughout the Athletic Department and especially in football and basketball with an eye towards creating more flexibility.  While the practice facility remains a question mark, the other necessary ingredients had been brought together in advance of the search for a new leader.  

Much of that support hinged on hiring a head coach that would be able to cement donor interest and rejuvenate fan support for a team that had seen attendance fall to the very bottom of Power 5 programs.

Cal is in desperate need of a hoops leader who can invigorate the key constituencies from NIL donors to traditional boosters to former players and the fan base.   This is a turnaround and will require boundless energy, resilience and an ability to marshall support from every corner of Cal’s basketball ecosystem.   Winning is generally the fastest way to make that happen and in college hoops, the fastest way to win is to find talent.   Beyond the innate desire and talent to recruit top-tier players, NIL donations are an absolute prerequisite to creating the type of talent infusion so desperately needed at Haas Pavilion.

The criteria for the new Head Coach became obvious and clear:

  • A top-flight recruiter who had done it successfully at the P5 level AND who both embraced and could navigate today's NIL world
  • A proven head coach who had won consistently, competing and winning for conference titles and earning bids to the NCAA tournament
  • Someone who had the personality and make-up to both energize the fanbase and overcome some of Cal’s inherent challenges (admissions, facilities, a notoriously recalcitrant bureaucracy)
  • Ideally, someone with West Coast ties and an understanding of both Cal’s potential and challenges 

Armed with the momentum around increased resources and improved circumstances, Cal wanted to reach for the stars.   While Dennis Gates’ recently signed extension with Missouri took him out of the running (An $11M+ buyout), that didn’t mean the Chris Beards, Jamie Dixons, Randy Bennetts couldn’t be considered.   There are rumors from multiple sources that a potential grand slam home run was briefly intrigued though apparently, that flirtation did not result in any material conversations.  

Randy Bennett did emerge as a possibility and became a favorite, perhaps the favorite.   The allure was understandable.  He had built a top 20 program from a tiny school only 25 minutes from Cal’s campus.   Bennett’s a future HOF coach whose resume as a winner is unimpeachable.   However, one can’t help but wonder at how well he lined up against the remainder of Cal’s criteria.   At 61, did he have the energy or appetite for a turnaround?   Could his style of recruiting and roster building translate to the Pac-12?   Would his laconic and reserved personality be able to successfully engage donors and fans?   Did he have any interest in delving into the world of raising money for NIL, much less navigating recruiting with this as the central theme?

Still, it appears he was the front-runner and likely received an offer last week.   An offer that he ostensibly turned down.   While Bennett represented the obvious, there was also the possibility Cal would look beyond the world of college basketball to find its new leader.  NBA assistants such as Damon Stoudamire and Jason Terry were rumored to have been involved.   Stoudamire had a history in college basketball, yet only four days after Mark Fox was terminated he decided to take the Georgia Tech head job.   Terry may have had some appeal as a former Pac-12 and NBA star though his college resume was empty.   And the track record of former NBA players and assistants in the NBA coming to college as a head coach is not confidence inspiring.  

That left a group of up-and-coming college coaches.  Younger, with the energy and ambition likely required to clean up the current mess at Cal.  These were led by UCSBs head man, Joe Pasternack, who had a proven ability to land top-tier Power 5 talent as an assistant coach at both Cal and Arizona.   Pasternack reportedly coveted the job and had the support of several large Cal donors, including a large pledge for NIL if he were to get the role.   Amir Abdur-Rahim, fresh off an NCAA berth at Kenesaw State and a former ace recruiter at Texas A&M and Georgia was available and his family ties to the Bears were clearly compelling to fans and potential donors.   Stan Johnson at LMU had found more success in Westchester than any coach since Paul Westhead left in 1990 including big wins this season over St. Mary’s and Gonzaga.  He has the youth and charisma that had to figure prominently in Knowlton’s mind.  However, neither Abdur-Rahim nor Johnson have much of a track record as head coaches and had not come close to proving they could be consistent winners as head coaches (an important element given the impact a single player can have on a program for a season).   Mark Madsen was another obvious candidate.   A former college and NBA star that had sustained success (he inherited a strong program) at Utah Valley including two conference championships in the past three years.   He was unable to bring them to the NCAA tournament but is currently competing for an NIT title.   Madsen’s young, high energy, and charismatic.   Unfortunately, he doesn’t have much of a track record as a Power 5 recruiter with only one year at Stanford (a school that has historically recruited well without much impact from their coaching staff).   NIT experience?   

All four appeared to be finalists, given at least one and likely two interviews.   The interview process this time around was essential.   Without it, it’s very difficult to assess the candidate's ability to galvanize donors, navigate NIL, and what their approach would be to staff building, recruiting, and the overall turnaround process.   

According to our sources, in the end, Pasternack pulled out, and Abdur-Rahim and Johnson were not offered the job.   While the exclusion of Abdur-Rahim and Johnson is not surprising given their limited HC resumes and lack of consistent winning success, what happened to Pasternack’s candidacy?   

Jim Knowlton, despite the outreach and gathering of input from experts and donors in the process, is almost certainly making this decision an internal one.   He and his team within the AD are the ones choosing Cal’s next head coach and to our knowledge did not reach out to any donors or external advisors before making their decision.  That said, one has to wonder how much influence former Cal head coach Mike Montgomery and current Cal Assoc AD Jay John had on the final choice.   John, because he’s the only true Basketball person residing within Cal’s Athletic Department and Montgomery because the thesis on finalists laid out above leads to the conclusion that Mark Madsen will be Cal’s next head coach.   What’s notable is neither has any experience with the transfer portal and recruiting in the NIL era.

Montgomery coached Mark Madsen and is undoubtedly close to his former star.   Further, it’s been suggested that both he and Jay John were not fans of Pasternack’s, having had to compete with him at both Cal and Arizona as recruiters and on the court.   Pasternack is known for his fiery intensity and passion and clearly has the ability to get under the skin of his competitors.   And his association with Sean Miller at Arizona may further have fueled the animosity of the former Cal head coach who was known to be outspoken about anyone operating in the gray areas of recruiting.   

Interestingly, in today's college basketball, what was once considered “shady” is now business as usual with NIL.   It’s also not clear that a turnaround of the proportions that currently exist at Cal doesn’t automatically require a coach with a certain extra edginess and competitive fire.   While the above is speculation, it’s hard to find another rationale for why Cal may have passed on Joe Pasternack.   His recruiting resume, his on-the-court success, his knowledge of Cal, and the support he had within the Cal donor base all made him objectively a stronger candidate than Madsen.

In the end, it’s important that we all support Cal’s new head coach and it’s essential to be reminded that Knowlton’s job isn’t to win the process or the press conference announcing the new head coach, it’s about what the new coach does after he arrives in Berkeley that matters.  Whether it’s Madsen or someone else, we will have early feedback on donor (particularly NIL) support and recruiting.   That will be a non-trivial task as Madsen will not arrive with built-in support and the juxtaposition of his qualifications relative to Pasternack is almost certain to create disquiet and unhappiness among the donor base.  One of the further challenges in the desire to have a more considered and thoughtful search process is that the transfer portal is already open and Cal is not able to capitalize.   If the choice is Madsen and he cannot start until after the NIT, the Bears are further penalized.  

One thing to watch is if, in fact, the hire is Madsen is who he adds to his staff.  Will it include former Cal assistant John Montgomery?   Former coaches who advise on coaching searches are notoriously loyal to their former players and assistants.  Could Cal’s process have been derailed by a former great having his views pervade to the benefit of those he knows and loves best?   What’s painful here is of all the folks providing input to Knowlton on this process, the one whose least likely to write a donation or NIL check is in fact, Mike Montgomery.   Time will tell.   

Discussion from...

The Cal Men's Basketball Head Coaching Search

22,616 Views | 110 Replies | Last: 1 yr ago by calumnus
Gkhoury2325
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Pittstop, in terms of coaching Fox had a terrible record at Georgia and Cal. I know he did well at Nevada, but his inability to adjust in game was not strong, and whether that is due ti not having the talent encompasses wins and losses. He has too many losses for all of our tastes. JP has a PG now we wish we had who would help facilitate an offense and make other players better. He got a non P5 team to the NCAA tournament, which is more difficult than being at a P5. Just my opinion but I hear what you are saying sir.
calumnus
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Pittstop said:

Mostly agree. But we were referring to whether "coaching record" at a non-P5 program was an accurate predictor for P5 success, no presumed recruiting chops. And, hey, Fox did recruit KCP to GA, and put him in the NBA.


Though anyone who seriously believes Georgia boosters took a 9 year break from the program is pretty gullible. Knowlton, sure, he is a fool, but Cal grads should be smarter than that.
BearlyCareAnymore
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CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.
You are just basically trying to look at personality and extrapolate recruiting success. Pasternack has actually successfully recruited at Cal and moreso at Arizona. He actually has recruiting relationships with the major recruiting players on the West Coast. Madsen has recruited exactly zero players to a high major school.

It's like saying that SFCity seems to have a wealth of knowledge of basketball and maybe he knows more than Steve Kerr while ignoring Steve Kerr actually has a record to fall back on that isn't just your subjective opinion of their smarts.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Pittstop said:

Mark Fox had a stellar "coaching record" at Nevada. Much like JP at UCSB. Not a slam dunk predictor for P5 success - which Fox proved at GA.
Of course there is no slam dunk predictor for success. Which doesn't mean you don't make your best prediction based on the relevant information.

QB success is notoriously hard to predict, but you don't see NFL teams taking the fifth best option with the number one pick on the theory "what the hell. can't predict it anyway."
BearGoggles
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dan1997 said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?

There is zero evidence Pasternack was involved in the "cheating" at Arizona. He was never under investigation nor was he named in the reports conducted by NCAA and Arizona.
Not so sure about the "zero evidence" claim. Pasternack was on staff at the same time Sean Miller and Book Richardson were cheating.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/23/17047258/arizona-wildcats-assistants-joe-pasternack-book-richardson-emails-fbi-investigation-sean-miller

Pasternack was recorded talking to the same agent(s) known to have bribed Richardson.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/pascoe/calls-between-ex-wildcats-assistant-joe-pasternacks-cell-phone-and-agent-cited-in-fbi-probe/article_8cc25a98-a47b-11e7-9f56-a7f5565d084d.html

Not clear evidence of JPs guilt. But there's certainly "some" evidence and it takes a lot to believe that JP had no idea what was going on around him, particularly when JP was so involved in the recruiting. Bowen offered $$ and JP was Bowen's lead recruiter. Hard to imagine he didn't know . . .

And certainty Monty and Jay seem to think JP was cheating. Don't you think they had a pretty good idea of who was being paid and by whom?

Let me ask the question another way, if it was clear to you that JP was cheating at AZ, would that be disqualifying to you in hiring him at Cal? Not trolling here - but it seems like that was the thing that did him in with Monty and Jay. And it seems to me that claim/allegation is the one thing that would prevent Knowlton/Christ from stepping in on JP's behalf.
BearlyCareAnymore
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bluesaxe said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

Civil Bear said:

bluesaxe said:




There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the process, and lots of arguments re the merits of the choice, but he didn't inherit much of anything and had to build up to where they were this year. Although UV went 23-11 and was overall 92 ranked in KenPom in 2018 under Pope, Madson definitely did NOT inherit that team His first team only returned one starter and one bench player who played significant minutes from 2018 and from what I can tell no one else. Their best players transferred to BYU with Pope. That's a full rebuild. Not surprisingly they lost more than they won in 2019. In 2020-21 he was at .500 with his own frosh and sophs but 9-4 in conference and in second place. Last year they were 20-12 overall but with a worse conference record. This year 28-8 and 1st in the WAC, with a KenPom rating (64) that was better than all but five teams in the Pac-12. They lost their conference final by a point but since then have beaten New Mexico, Cincinnati and Colorado in the NIT.

I also don't find the absence of four or five star recruits all that surprising at a school that has never made the NCAA tourney. How many four and five-stars play in the WAC do you think? Here there's a different product to sell. Will he be a good recruiter? Who knows but then we also don't know what kind of staff he'll put together.

He also has more than just Utah Valley on his coaching resume. He was an assistant at Stanford, a G-League head coach, and an NBA player development coach and assistant coach before getting to UV. He was a two-time All-American and a 9-year NBA player. That basketball background isn't bad at all.

He wasn't my first choice or my second choice, but if it's him I can see some positives for sure and no need to denigrate what he did at UV. Seems like a pretty solid job to me.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he played for Cal instead of the dirty 'furds he would have been closer to the second choice. A pre-Missoury Gates level hire.
Gates - His team improved from 9th to 7th his first year, then finished 1st twice.

Madsen - His team dropped six places in the standings his first year from 2nd to 8th, finished first, then dropped to seventh, then finished first.

Plot those on a graph and see how the lines compare.

And Missouri didn't bring Ben Braun in to offer him over more qualified candidates.

I'm guessing if he was hired to coach for the dirty 'furds instead of Cal, no one here would be comparing him to Dennis Gates. I don't care that he played for furd. I care that he played for the guy who had so much influence on the decision.
Put them on a graph and don't consider context at all? OK. He dropped six places in the standings with two players left over from Pope's team, none of whom were leading scorers and only one of whom started. And the progression was 8th, 2nd, 7th but with 12 more wins overall, then 1st. Criticizing his first year seems a bit like pointing out that Gates didn't improve Cleveland state more than one win his first year. Not really the right measure of whether he was doing anything right.

Gates has done a hell of a job but Gates wasn't available. Knowlton blew that the last time around like the idiot he is. And if the article is right, the process once again was a poor one.

This discussion, though, is basically everyone defending their own choices. For good reason in some cases, but I feel like Madsen is getting saddled with a lot of crap not of his own making in the discussion and that seems off to me. I don't know if Madsen can handle this job and like I said he wasn't my choice, or even second, but at least he isn't some old retread with no energy and no real interest in doing the job. And no, that isn't the hiring standard, but it's a step up anyway.

I do think I'll be attending games this year for the first time in a while.
Look. Gates realistically wasn't available any time we were going to hire him. I don't care about Gates. But 1. his record isn't on par with Gates. 2. Gates has actually gone on to have success at Missouri which he may or may not have done. It is like saying Joe Montana was drafted in the third round and Player X was drafted in the third round, so.... Gates may or may not have made the transition. He did, so the idea that somehow a guy with a not similar record is like hiring Gates is a fallacy.

Now as for plotting the graph, Gates improved first year, then went to number one. Then stayed at number one. Never left number one. Take out the first year on Madsen if you want. He went way up then way down. Then way up.

As for the year he finished 7th he had 9 more wins, overall, not 12, and that is because the year before a third of their games were cancelled due to Covid. And the bottom line is against the same teams he had a significantly worse record.

It is very simple. Rising to the top of your conference and staying there is better by a wide margin than bouncing up and down. Consistently being #1 is better than sometimes being #1. It just is. If you guys want to argue for him, be my guest, but stop saying his record is like Gates was when he was hired by Missouri because it wasn't.
BearlyCareAnymore
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BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?

There is zero evidence Pasternack was involved in the "cheating" at Arizona. He was never under investigation nor was he named in the reports conducted by NCAA and Arizona.
Not so sure about the "zero evidence" claim. Pasternack was on staff at the same time Sean Miller and Book Richardson were cheating.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/23/17047258/arizona-wildcats-assistants-joe-pasternack-book-richardson-emails-fbi-investigation-sean-miller

Pasternack was recorded talking to the same agent(s) known to have bribed Richardson.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/pascoe/calls-between-ex-wildcats-assistant-joe-pasternacks-cell-phone-and-agent-cited-in-fbi-probe/article_8cc25a98-a47b-11e7-9f56-a7f5565d084d.html

Not clear evidence of JPs guilt. But there's certainly "some" evidence and it takes a lot to believe that JP had no idea what was going on around him, particularly when JP was so involved in the recruiting. Bowen offered $$ and JP was Bowen's lead recruiter. Hard to imagine he didn't know . . .

And certainty Monty and Jay seem to think JP was cheating. Don't you think they had a pretty good idea of who was being paid and by whom?

Let me ask the question another way, if it was clear to you that JP was cheating at AZ, would that be disqualifying to you in hiring him at Cal? Not trolling here - but it seems like that was the thing that did him in with Monty and Jay. And it seems to me that claim/allegation is the one thing that would prevent Knowlton/Christ from stepping in on JP's behalf.
Look. I think Pasternack seems a little sleazy. I'd prefer he was better at hiding that fact because frankly I think all the successful coaches are a little sleazy. But if he broke rules, he never got caught. And so the question is, especially given that those rules have significantly changed making what the guys who got caught doing largely within the rules now, would he break the rules at Cal (which would be unacceptable).

You know who I don't want making that decision? The guy who got his ass kicked on the recruiting trail because he refused to do what everyone else did that was within the rules and he openly expressed his revulsion to playing along with the guys who held the keys to recruits. He didn't need to pay them. He just needed to shake hands once in a while. He could shower after if necessary. Remember, Monty had zero chance at pulling in Ivan Rabb and I don't think there is any indication of anything wrong with Rabb or Bishop O'Dowd. If Monty hadn't turned his nose up at recruiting he might have won some of those battles with Arizona.

If the next coach plays by the "rules" Monty did, we lose. You need to decide. You are either too good for college basketball or you aren't. I'm perfectly fine saying we won't play that way. Then get out. You want to play the game, you need to play by the same rules everyone else is and not walk around telling people you need that you are better than they are.
PappysBoy
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There are no jobs open on the West Coast rn. He'll get his turn, and he'll for sure we regret it. Given JK's impressive track record of missing on guys, you can take that to Vegas.
Gkhoury2325
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Montgomery did not like recruiting because he believed he was a BB purest. Recruiting became a bit slimy and did not want to be part of it. Plus he does not appear to understand that kids that are less privileged may only have one shot at this. He is of the old school go to school, and Get your education and work hard. It's not that easy for kids who may not have had the educational background to be in that category. Montgomery likes the wholesome kid like Madsen was and is now. If Madsen could get Shaq O'Neil, Brain Shaw, and other NBA players to vouche for him he will do Well. He need to call kids right away and HS/Prep programs HC's right away too. He needs to Build a staff and not neglect all these entities that fox did.
bluesaxe
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calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.
BearGoggles
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BearlyCareAnymore said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?

There is zero evidence Pasternack was involved in the "cheating" at Arizona. He was never under investigation nor was he named in the reports conducted by NCAA and Arizona.
Not so sure about the "zero evidence" claim. Pasternack was on staff at the same time Sean Miller and Book Richardson were cheating.

https://www.azdesertswarm.com/basketball/2018/2/23/17047258/arizona-wildcats-assistants-joe-pasternack-book-richardson-emails-fbi-investigation-sean-miller

Pasternack was recorded talking to the same agent(s) known to have bribed Richardson.

https://tucson.com/sports/arizonawildcats/basketball/pascoe/calls-between-ex-wildcats-assistant-joe-pasternacks-cell-phone-and-agent-cited-in-fbi-probe/article_8cc25a98-a47b-11e7-9f56-a7f5565d084d.html

Not clear evidence of JPs guilt. But there's certainly "some" evidence and it takes a lot to believe that JP had no idea what was going on around him, particularly when JP was so involved in the recruiting. Bowen offered $$ and JP was Bowen's lead recruiter. Hard to imagine he didn't know . . .

And certainty Monty and Jay seem to think JP was cheating. Don't you think they had a pretty good idea of who was being paid and by whom?

Let me ask the question another way, if it was clear to you that JP was cheating at AZ, would that be disqualifying to you in hiring him at Cal? Not trolling here - but it seems like that was the thing that did him in with Monty and Jay. And it seems to me that claim/allegation is the one thing that would prevent Knowlton/Christ from stepping in on JP's behalf.
Look. I think Pasternack seems a little sleazy. I'd prefer he was better at hiding that fact because frankly I think all the successful coaches are a little sleazy. But if he broke rules, he never got caught. And so the question is, especially given that those rules have significantly changed making what the guys who got caught doing largely within the rules now, would he break the rules at Cal (which would be unacceptable).

You know who I don't want making that decision? The guy who got his ass kicked on the recruiting trail because he refused to do what everyone else did that was within the rules and he openly expressed his revulsion to playing along with the guys who held the keys to recruits. He didn't need to pay them. He just needed to shake hands once in a while. He could shower after if necessary. Remember, Monty had zero chance at pulling in Ivan Rabb and I don't think there is any indication of anything wrong with Rabb or Bishop O'Dowd. If Monty hadn't turned his nose up at recruiting he might have won some of those battles with Arizona.

If the next coach plays by the "rules" Monty did, we lose. You need to decide. You are either too good for college basketball or you aren't. I'm perfectly fine saying we won't play that way. Then get out. You want to play the game, you need to play by the same rules everyone else is and not walk around telling people you need that you are better than they are.
Yes and no to this. 100% agree Monty/Jay should not have had more than a passing opinion/role in the hiring and that the opinion of donors/former players is far more important. Also agree that Monty's recruiting approach (or lack thereof) is not tenable and really never was other than the ivory tower of Stanford.

But at the same time, a guy who cheats once will very likely cheat again. Particularly if he got away with it the last time. And while JP may not have been caught, what he and AZ were doing was almost certainly well known, both to JP and to others. Do you think coaches like Monty and Jay didn't know exactly what was going on? Of course they did, even if the NCAA looked the other way.

And your final paragraph is really just a false choice. No one is claiming Cal should play by the rules Monty did - certainly not now that NIL is legal. Of course Cal donors should pay players legally. The current questions are: (i) should Cal and its donors cheat the NIL rules as other schools clearly already are; and (ii) do you hire a guy who cheated, knowing he might cheat again (in a different way)?

For Cal, the answer to (i) is that Cal will not play fast and loose with NIL rules - Sebastabear has made that clear. In terms of (ii), I think that's an open question.



calumnus
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bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.


CaliforniaEternal
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PappysBoy said:

There are no jobs open on the West Coast rn. He'll get his turn, and he'll for sure we regret it. Given JK's impressive track record of missing on guys, you can take that to Vegas.
That goes without saying that JK is completely clueless. Hiring a coach like Madsen who has never appeared in the tournament is a big risk but Pasternack would be a better candidate if he had some tournament wins. A serious program would be looking for coaches with actual success but that's not what Cal is.
PappysBoy
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Given the history of this department, I'd say, yes, yes he will get a very long honeymoon unless the next AD comes in with a green light to clean house. Madsen won't have the same charm problems that Fox did, but hopefully he brings more than character, especially recruiting which he hasn't yet demonstrated a gift for. And given his mentor, one can be forgiven for being a little skeptical.
BearoutEast67
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I don't like the Stanfurd theme woven into our Cal search.
Donate to Cal's NIL at https://calegends.com/donation/
calumnus
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BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley. Of course he wanted everyone to play by the rules, it benefited him.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madsen won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

If we are relying on ex-coaches for advice, Ben Braun would have been better. He knows and appreciates Cal and Berkeley better (despite having been fired) and would have found a better fit, though maybe it is the default of pushing his guy too.

The coaches I REALLY wish they leaned on are Jason Kidd and Steve Kerr.
BearGoggles
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calumnus said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madden won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

I don't think embracing NIL is the issue - all coaches including Madsen presumably do. I think the issue is which candidates had NIL commitments from donors. JP and AAR reportedly did. Reports are Madsen did not. If that's the case, then the choice was stupid.
calumnus
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BearGoggles said:

calumnus said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madden won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

I don't think embracing NIL is the issue - all coaches including Madsen presumably do. I think the issue is which candidates had NIL commitments from donors. JP and AAR reportedly did. Reports are Madsen did not. If that's the case, then the choice was stupid.


I agree, but that is a separate issue.

The issue I addressed is that supposedly Monty and Jay eliminated Pasternack from consideration because they believe he was involved in, or at least aware of, players being paid at Arizona. My point is it feels vindictive and is not a relevant reason to eliminate someone in 2023. Paying players is legal now. If anything, coordinating with boosters and agents to pay players is a relevant skill.
Blueblood
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"Darn, no basketball coach under here!"
stu
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I think it's a relevant consideration because it was not legal at the time. I'd be happier if we stayed far from the edge.
dimitrig
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BearGoggles said:

calumnus said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madden won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

I don't think embracing NIL is the issue - all coaches including Madsen presumably do. I think the issue is which candidates had NIL commitments from donors. JP and AAR reportedly did. Reports are Madsen did not. If that's the case, then the choice was stupid.


If that's the case then the donors are stupid.

You gotta have the horses to win. The jockey is important, too, but he's not running the race.




HKBear97!
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calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.





Thanks for sharing those stats. Shows the team consistently improved each year under Madsen. That is a great sign.
Big C
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dimitrig said:

BearGoggles said:

calumnus said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madden won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

I don't think embracing NIL is the issue - all coaches including Madsen presumably do. I think the issue is which candidates had NIL commitments from donors. JP and AAR reportedly did. Reports are Madsen did not. If that's the case, then the choice was stupid.


If that's the case then the donors are stupid.

You gotta have the horses to win. The jockey is important, too, but he's not running the race.






Madsen will approach these guys with his charm turned up to ten. Hopefully, they will accept that he's the guy now and they will come through. If not, they will sure seem petty. Are they about themselves as Cal guys, or just themselves?
calumnus
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HKBear97! said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.





Thanks for sharing those stats. Shows the team consistently improved each year under Madsen. That is a great sign.


Yes, but only after greatly underperforming UVUs average previously. If we had kept Wyking for four years I am pretty sure we could say " the team consistently improved every year under Wyking."

Dennis Gates, Amir Abdul-Rahim, and Joe Pasternack took over teams that had not been having success and then elevated them. Madsen basically got UVU back to where they had been before he arrived, maybe higher, but that is due to a single little recruited transfer player helping his team lead the country in blocked shots and 2nd in defensive rebounds. Was it scouting, teaching (you can't teach height) or luck?
BearlyCareAnymore
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dimitrig said:

BearGoggles said:

calumnus said:

BearGoggles said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


Dan - as a JP supporter, I do have a question for you. How do you feel now that is has been essentially confirmed that JP was cheating all of the years at AZ when he was (apparently) fully aware of payments to players?

It seems like that is what doomed him with Monty and Jay. In your opinion, should that have been a consideration, or were Monty and Jay just being petty? Should Cal overlook that and assume JP is a reformed cheater?



Monty and Jay are old guys from another era. Much of Monty's recruiting advantage was a scholarship that was more valuable than that offered by everyone else: a free scholarship to a college that is one of the most expensive and difficult to gain admission to, where getting passing grades is easy and players get paid on the backend, hired by alums for nice jobs on Silicon Valley.

It is the NIL era now. We need somebody who will embrace reality. Not saying Madden won't, but it definitely should not have eliminated Pasternack from consideration.

I don't think embracing NIL is the issue - all coaches including Madsen presumably do. I think the issue is which candidates had NIL commitments from donors. JP and AAR reportedly did. Reports are Madsen did not. If that's the case, then the choice was stupid.


If that's the case then the donors are stupid.

You gotta have the horses to win. The jockey is important, too, but he's not running the race.







If you donate to feed the poor and no poor get fed, when the charity comes back around, who is the stupid one, the one who donates again or the one who refuses. If the charity comes around for 60 years and never feeds the poor, what then?

Maybe some donors are tired of chucking their money with no results.

You are assuming there are two options. 1. They donate and we succeed. Or 2. They don't donate and we fail. In the past, option 3 has been by far the most common occurrence - they donate and we still fail.
HoopDreams
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bluesaxe said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

Civil Bear said:

bluesaxe said:




There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the process, and lots of arguments re the merits of the choice, but he didn't inherit much of anything and had to build up to where they were this year. Although UV went 23-11 and was overall 92 ranked in KenPom in 2018 under Pope, Madson definitely did NOT inherit that team His first team only returned one starter and one bench player who played significant minutes from 2018 and from what I can tell no one else. Their best players transferred to BYU with Pope. That's a full rebuild. Not surprisingly they lost more than they won in 2019. In 2020-21 he was at .500 with his own frosh and sophs but 9-4 in conference and in second place. Last year they were 20-12 overall but with a worse conference record. This year 28-8 and 1st in the WAC, with a KenPom rating (64) that was better than all but five teams in the Pac-12. They lost their conference final by a point but since then have beaten New Mexico, Cincinnati and Colorado in the NIT.

I also don't find the absence of four or five star recruits all that surprising at a school that has never made the NCAA tourney. How many four and five-stars play in the WAC do you think? Here there's a different product to sell. Will he be a good recruiter? Who knows but then we also don't know what kind of staff he'll put together.

He also has more than just Utah Valley on his coaching resume. He was an assistant at Stanford, a G-League head coach, and an NBA player development coach and assistant coach before getting to UV. He was a two-time All-American and a 9-year NBA player. That basketball background isn't bad at all.

He wasn't my first choice or my second choice, but if it's him I can see some positives for sure and no need to denigrate what he did at UV. Seems like a pretty solid job to me.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he played for Cal instead of the dirty 'furds he would have been closer to the second choice. A pre-Missoury Gates level hire.
Gates - His team improved from 9th to 7th his first year, then finished 1st twice.

Madsen - His team dropped six places in the standings his first year from 2nd to 8th, finished first, then dropped to seventh, then finished first.

Plot those on a graph and see how the lines compare.

And Missouri didn't bring Ben Braun in to offer him over more qualified candidates.

I'm guessing if he was hired to coach for the dirty 'furds instead of Cal, no one here would be comparing him to Dennis Gates. I don't care that he played for furd. I care that he played for the guy who had so much influence on the decision.
Put them on a graph and don't consider context at all? OK. He dropped six places in the standings with two players left over from Pope's team, none of whom were leading scorers and only one of whom started. And the progression was 8th, 2nd, 7th but with 12 more wins overall, then 1st. Criticizing his first year seems a bit like pointing out that Gates didn't improve Cleveland state more than one win his first year. Not really the right measure of whether he was doing anything right.
so why did he have only 2 players from the prior team?

because 8 transferred out when he was named coach

hmmm...
calumnus
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HoopDreams said:

bluesaxe said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

Civil Bear said:

bluesaxe said:




There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the process, and lots of arguments re the merits of the choice, but he didn't inherit much of anything and had to build up to where they were this year. Although UV went 23-11 and was overall 92 ranked in KenPom in 2018 under Pope, Madson definitely did NOT inherit that team His first team only returned one starter and one bench player who played significant minutes from 2018 and from what I can tell no one else. Their best players transferred to BYU with Pope. That's a full rebuild. Not surprisingly they lost more than they won in 2019. In 2020-21 he was at .500 with his own frosh and sophs but 9-4 in conference and in second place. Last year they were 20-12 overall but with a worse conference record. This year 28-8 and 1st in the WAC, with a KenPom rating (64) that was better than all but five teams in the Pac-12. They lost their conference final by a point but since then have beaten New Mexico, Cincinnati and Colorado in the NIT.

I also don't find the absence of four or five star recruits all that surprising at a school that has never made the NCAA tourney. How many four and five-stars play in the WAC do you think? Here there's a different product to sell. Will he be a good recruiter? Who knows but then we also don't know what kind of staff he'll put together.

He also has more than just Utah Valley on his coaching resume. He was an assistant at Stanford, a G-League head coach, and an NBA player development coach and assistant coach before getting to UV. He was a two-time All-American and a 9-year NBA player. That basketball background isn't bad at all.

He wasn't my first choice or my second choice, but if it's him I can see some positives for sure and no need to denigrate what he did at UV. Seems like a pretty solid job to me.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he played for Cal instead of the dirty 'furds he would have been closer to the second choice. A pre-Missoury Gates level hire.
Gates - His team improved from 9th to 7th his first year, then finished 1st twice.

Madsen - His team dropped six places in the standings his first year from 2nd to 8th, finished first, then dropped to seventh, then finished first.

Plot those on a graph and see how the lines compare.

And Missouri didn't bring Ben Braun in to offer him over more qualified candidates.

I'm guessing if he was hired to coach for the dirty 'furds instead of Cal, no one here would be comparing him to Dennis Gates. I don't care that he played for furd. I care that he played for the guy who had so much influence on the decision.
Put them on a graph and don't consider context at all? OK. He dropped six places in the standings with two players left over from Pope's team, none of whom were leading scorers and only one of whom started. And the progression was 8th, 2nd, 7th but with 12 more wins overall, then 1st. Criticizing his first year seems a bit like pointing out that Gates didn't improve Cleveland state more than one win his first year. Not really the right measure of whether he was doing anything right.
so why did he have only 2 players from the prior team?

because 8 transferred out when he was named coach

hmmm...


First job when inheriting a 25-10 team is to recruit the existing players. Unless all 8 followed Pope to BYU, that is not an excuse for taking 3-4 years to rebuild from inheriting a 25-10 team with 10 of the best players eligible to return.

People that tore apart Abdur-Rahim's resume (and Gates' 4 years ago) are now lining up behind Madsen.
The good thing is coaches' don't win based on their resumes. We will see how this goes.
bluesaxe
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calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.



Senior backcourt is nice, sure, but there were only three guys who stayed from Pope's team, one of whom had redshirted. Their starting guards and best players transferred to BYU. When's the last time you heard of someone with the cupboard that bare improving on a 23 win team? His first two seasons also were impacted by COVID, which had to hamper recruiting for his second season. It's a tough way to start.

Seems to me that he could be a very good choice to coach this team if only the personal and coaching aspects of the job are considered. But if he's not going to get the same level of support that someone else would have, that's a problem.
mbBear
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bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.



Senior backcourt is nice, sure, but there were only three guys who stayed from Pope's team, one of whom had redshirted. Their starting guards and best players transferred to BYU. When's the last time you heard of someone with the cupboard that bare improving on a 23 win team? His first two seasons also were impacted by COVID, which had to hamper recruiting for his second season. It's a tough way to start.

Seems to me that he could be a very good choice to coach this team if only the personal and coaching aspects of the job are considered. But if he's not going to get the same level of support that someone else would have, that's a problem.
Someone already asked the question but worth repeating: was the support going to be questionable no matter what(or whom), because of the AD relationship with donors?
And again, repeating not my original thought: Shareef's involvement would not have been new money...want to argue that there would have been incremental dollars? Okay, that's possible.
I was assuming JP, and hopeful that would turn everything around....maybe a few donors have signed off on Madsen....might as well be hopeful, because there is a lot more that we don't know than what is known...
bluesaxe
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mbBear said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.



Senior backcourt is nice, sure, but there were only three guys who stayed from Pope's team, one of whom had redshirted. Their starting guards and best players transferred to BYU. When's the last time you heard of someone with the cupboard that bare improving on a 23 win team? His first two seasons also were impacted by COVID, which had to hamper recruiting for his second season. It's a tough way to start.

Seems to me that he could be a very good choice to coach this team if only the personal and coaching aspects of the job are considered. But if he's not going to get the same level of support that someone else would have, that's a problem.
Someone already asked the question but worth repeating: was the support going to be questionable no matter what(or whom), because of the AD relationship with donors?
And again, repeating not my original thought: Shareef's involvement would not have been new money...want to argue that there would have been incremental dollars? Okay, that's possible.
I was assuming JP, and hopeful that would turn everything around....maybe a few donors have signed off on Madsen....might as well be hopeful, because there is a lot more that we don't know than what is known...
I don't know the answers. What I know is secondhand and incomplete. It seems like there were some guaranteed dollars tied to various candidates, and that Knowlton handled the involvement of donors and ex-players badly. I'm hopeful for Madsen as a young coach, but I really wish we could get rid of Knowlton and figure out how to get a competently run athletic department to support him.
PappysBoy
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Gates was reasonably available to us maybe 4 to 5 out of the past six years. Complete and utterly disasterous decision-making by two ADs that will haunt this program for the next twenty years.
Civil Bear
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HoopDreams said:

bluesaxe said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

Civil Bear said:

bluesaxe said:




There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the process, and lots of arguments re the merits of the choice, but he didn't inherit much of anything and had to build up to where they were this year. Although UV went 23-11 and was overall 92 ranked in KenPom in 2018 under Pope, Madson definitely did NOT inherit that team His first team only returned one starter and one bench player who played significant minutes from 2018 and from what I can tell no one else. Their best players transferred to BYU with Pope. That's a full rebuild. Not surprisingly they lost more than they won in 2019. In 2020-21 he was at .500 with his own frosh and sophs but 9-4 in conference and in second place. Last year they were 20-12 overall but with a worse conference record. This year 28-8 and 1st in the WAC, with a KenPom rating (64) that was better than all but five teams in the Pac-12. They lost their conference final by a point but since then have beaten New Mexico, Cincinnati and Colorado in the NIT.

I also don't find the absence of four or five star recruits all that surprising at a school that has never made the NCAA tourney. How many four and five-stars play in the WAC do you think? Here there's a different product to sell. Will he be a good recruiter? Who knows but then we also don't know what kind of staff he'll put together.

He also has more than just Utah Valley on his coaching resume. He was an assistant at Stanford, a G-League head coach, and an NBA player development coach and assistant coach before getting to UV. He was a two-time All-American and a 9-year NBA player. That basketball background isn't bad at all.

He wasn't my first choice or my second choice, but if it's him I can see some positives for sure and no need to denigrate what he did at UV. Seems like a pretty solid job to me.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he played for Cal instead of the dirty 'furds he would have been closer to the second choice. A pre-Missoury Gates level hire.
Gates - His team improved from 9th to 7th his first year, then finished 1st twice.

Madsen - His team dropped six places in the standings his first year from 2nd to 8th, finished first, then dropped to seventh, then finished first.

Plot those on a graph and see how the lines compare.

And Missouri didn't bring Ben Braun in to offer him over more qualified candidates.

I'm guessing if he was hired to coach for the dirty 'furds instead of Cal, no one here would be comparing him to Dennis Gates. I don't care that he played for furd. I care that he played for the guy who had so much influence on the decision.
Put them on a graph and don't consider context at all? OK. He dropped six places in the standings with two players left over from Pope's team, none of whom were leading scorers and only one of whom started. And the progression was 8th, 2nd, 7th but with 12 more wins overall, then 1st. Criticizing his first year seems a bit like pointing out that Gates didn't improve Cleveland state more than one win his first year. Not really the right measure of whether he was doing anything right.
so why did he have only 2 players from the prior team?

because 8 transferred out when he was named coach

hmmm...
Those with eligibility remaining followed Pope to BYU.
HearstMining
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PappysBoy said:

Given the history of this department, I'd say, yes, yes he will get a very long honeymoon unless the next AD comes in with a green light to clean house. Madsen won't have the same charm problems that Fox did, but hopefully he brings more than character, especially recruiting which he hasn't yet demonstrated a gift for. And given his mentor, one can be forgiven for being a little skeptical.
I'm asking this as a straight-up question: is there any indication that Montgomery is a mentor to Madsen? Sure, he coached him in college, but nobody ever assumed that Bozeman was a mentor to Jason Kidd. From what folks have said, Monty has been a big Madsen cheerleader during the HC selection process, so I'll take that at face value. But aside from his own kid, DeCuire seems to be the only one Monty actively mentored and promoted.

bluesaxe
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Civil Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

bluesaxe said:

BearlyCareAnymore said:

Civil Bear said:

bluesaxe said:




There are plenty of reasons to be disappointed in the process, and lots of arguments re the merits of the choice, but he didn't inherit much of anything and had to build up to where they were this year. Although UV went 23-11 and was overall 92 ranked in KenPom in 2018 under Pope, Madson definitely did NOT inherit that team His first team only returned one starter and one bench player who played significant minutes from 2018 and from what I can tell no one else. Their best players transferred to BYU with Pope. That's a full rebuild. Not surprisingly they lost more than they won in 2019. In 2020-21 he was at .500 with his own frosh and sophs but 9-4 in conference and in second place. Last year they were 20-12 overall but with a worse conference record. This year 28-8 and 1st in the WAC, with a KenPom rating (64) that was better than all but five teams in the Pac-12. They lost their conference final by a point but since then have beaten New Mexico, Cincinnati and Colorado in the NIT.

I also don't find the absence of four or five star recruits all that surprising at a school that has never made the NCAA tourney. How many four and five-stars play in the WAC do you think? Here there's a different product to sell. Will he be a good recruiter? Who knows but then we also don't know what kind of staff he'll put together.

He also has more than just Utah Valley on his coaching resume. He was an assistant at Stanford, a G-League head coach, and an NBA player development coach and assistant coach before getting to UV. He was a two-time All-American and a 9-year NBA player. That basketball background isn't bad at all.

He wasn't my first choice or my second choice, but if it's him I can see some positives for sure and no need to denigrate what he did at UV. Seems like a pretty solid job to me.

Yeah, I'm guessing if he played for Cal instead of the dirty 'furds he would have been closer to the second choice. A pre-Missoury Gates level hire.
Gates - His team improved from 9th to 7th his first year, then finished 1st twice.

Madsen - His team dropped six places in the standings his first year from 2nd to 8th, finished first, then dropped to seventh, then finished first.

Plot those on a graph and see how the lines compare.

And Missouri didn't bring Ben Braun in to offer him over more qualified candidates.

I'm guessing if he was hired to coach for the dirty 'furds instead of Cal, no one here would be comparing him to Dennis Gates. I don't care that he played for furd. I care that he played for the guy who had so much influence on the decision.
Put them on a graph and don't consider context at all? OK. He dropped six places in the standings with two players left over from Pope's team, none of whom were leading scorers and only one of whom started. And the progression was 8th, 2nd, 7th but with 12 more wins overall, then 1st. Criticizing his first year seems a bit like pointing out that Gates didn't improve Cleveland state more than one win his first year. Not really the right measure of whether he was doing anything right.
so why did he have only 2 players from the prior team?

because 8 transferred out when he was named coach

hmmm...
Those with eligibility remaining followed Pope to BYU.
Which isn't surprising for guys who signed with him. And coaching changes were often an excuse for players to look for greener grass before the changes in transfer rules ending waiting periods etc. Assuming it was a reaction to the hire as opposed to the coach leaving before the hire is a huge leap.
calumnus
How long do you want to ignore this user?
bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

bluesaxe said:

calumnus said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

dan1997 said:

CaliforniaEternal said:

Madsen has a much more impressive basketball background than someone like Pasternack. That's not to say a non-player can't be a good coach, but I can see why a background as a player is a big plus in recruiting and coaching.
Incorrect...

Madsen .583 win % at Utah Valley with 0 NCAA Tournaments. 2 20+ win seasons. Has never recruited 4 or 5 star players. Inherited a good situation from Mark Pope. Team won 20+ games and into post-season each of his last 2 years before leaving for BYU and Madsen taking over. Madsen won 11 games his first year. Commuter school that he can get anyone into school.

Pasternack .714 win % at UCSB with 2 NCAA Tournaments. 5 20+ win seasons. Recruited numerous 4 and 5 star players. Gauchos won 6 games year before Pasternack took over. He led them to greatest turnaround in NCAA history, 17-wn improvement from season before with 23 wins in first season. One of top universities academically in the country that Joe figured out how to navigate through and is same system as Cal.

This one really isn't hard to connect the dots.


If Pasternack is such a turnaround artist why is he staying at UCSB instead of pursuing/being pursued by other higher profile jobs? Isn't this just a case of Cal being such a lowly program that the only coaches willing to throw their hat in the ring have some big question marks?

I'm not saying I think Madsen is a lock for success, but he may be a better personality for the Cal community and in terms of academics and walking into recruits living rooms, he will be every bit as good as Pasternack could be. If NIL is the separating factor, well, Cal isn't going to win many of those battles against bigger programs.


There were credibly BIG donors that were going to back Pasternack with major NIL. There were credibly Cal NBA players and former NBA players that were going to back Amir. I know some big Stanford money that would back Madsen if he was at Stanford. It will remain to be seen who backs Madsen at Cal. My guess is his support at Cal will be tepid, at least unless he surprises with a dramatic turnaround, which is not what he did at UVU. He took a program that went 25-10 the year before he arrived and went 11-19 his first year, but got back to 20+ wins by year 4.
He took over the program but the team was gone. It was a rebuild. That said, the money issue is the key. If you have the money, you can construct a quick turnaround.


Even under Pope, Utah Valley relied on transfers.

Madsen's high scorers his first year were returnees 6'7" junior SG Isaiah White from Tulsa and 6'0 senior PG TJ Washington from Rancho Cucamonga which he supplemented with transfers. Luxury to have an experienced backcourt with a senior PG.

3 seniors and 5 juniors. Woodbury, a 6'4" sophomore guard from Vegas was the only underclassman who played significant minutes.

Utah Valley in Ken Pom

2017-18 Pope 23-11 #92 rank #73 O #131 D
2018-19 Pope 25-10 #104 rank #96 O #131 D
2019-20 Madsen 11-19 #253 rank #277 O #215 D
2020-21 Madsen 11-11 #199 rank #207 O #215 D
2021-22 Madsen 20-12 #119 rank #184 O #87 D
2022-23 Madsen 28-8 #64 rank #117 O #30 D

This most recent team was by far his best, playing great defense (#1 in the country in blocks and #2 in the country in defensive rebounding), lead by 7'0 225lb junior Aziz Bandaogo from Senegal and the NBA Academy Africa by way of Akron where he transferred from after being little used for two years.

Otherwise his teams are not particularly efficient, but he does play fast, looking for shots in transition, which will be more entertaining than Fox's style.



Senior backcourt is nice, sure, but there were only three guys who stayed from Pope's team, one of whom had redshirted. Their starting guards and best players transferred to BYU. When's the last time you heard of someone with the cupboard that bare improving on a 23 win team? His first two seasons also were impacted by COVID, which had to hamper recruiting for his second season. It's a tough way to start.

Seems to me that he could be a very good choice to coach this team if only the personal and coaching aspects of the job are considered. But if he's not going to get the same level of support that someone else would have, that's a problem.


It was a 25 win team the year before (23 the year before that). And the amount of returning scoring that year was only slightly higher than Madsen's first year, I think 38%. UVU is a place that 20 wins is the norm. Restocking with transfers is the norm. No academic restrictions.

Sure COVID, sure it was his first HC job, there are excuses/explanations, but not a lot of evidence based on his record that he is actually a good coach until this year's NIT run which is largely based on one player's athletic ability as a defender. His offense has not been particularly efficient any year, even with a lot of scoring off turnovers this year, which is a red flag to me. The other candidates generally had better coaching resumes, is my point. Their examples of turning around programs that had not won before they arrived are better.

It does not mean he will NOT be a good coach at Cal. He is a good guy. People like him. He has the right coaching philosophy. Monty will help him. My hunch is he is good. There is just not a lot of evidence one way or the other and I don't think he is a great fit at Cal, starting with being a Stanford guy. I just think there is a strong chance he is another Wilcox for the next decade. We are taking a gamble with probably limited upside.

Of course, I hope he is great, enjoys beating Stanford by 40 points while shouting "Go Bears!" feels at home here, connects with Cal donors and gets us back to the Tournament and then foresakes offers from Stanford, Utah, Arizona and the NBA to stay at Cal. Or at least has a Cal alum top assistant who can take over when he leaves.
 
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