Why is it so hard to fire football coaches at Cal?

4,760 Views | 93 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by mbBear
remb8888
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Can someone with knowledge of the inner-workings of high-end donations, the AD office, whatever, explain to me how schools like USC can do this on whim?

I mean sure we're a public school maybe it's tougher because of that but even UCLA seems to be able to get rid of a bad product better than we can.

Schools dedicated to football success don't tolerate 1-1 and a Stanford drubbing. Our program doesn't go anywhere because we tolerate this year after year after year. This C+ product we put on the field mired in mediocrity at a school that has so much more potential than this.
maxer
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Our donor base is significantly smaller, and our faculty is considerable more hostile to football. Mostly the first thing.
ColoradoBear
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$$$.

The question should be why is it so easy to extend coaches without a winning conference record.
79 Bear
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remb8888 said:

Can someone with knowledge of the inner-workings of high-end donations, the AD office, whatever, explain to me how schools like USC can do this on whim?

I mean sure we're a public school maybe it's tougher because of that but even UCLA seems to be able to get rid of a bad product better than we can.

Schools dedicated to football success don't tolerate 1-1 and a Stanford drubbing. Our program doesn't go anywhere because we tolerate this year after year after year. This C+ product we put on the field mired in mediocrity at a school that has so much more potential than this.


Fired "on whim?" Ask any USC football fan and they will tell you they've been asking to have Helton fired for years.

As for our situation, we are two games into the season and you want to fire the coach? Who do you think should replace him? How many schools fire their coach two games into a season? Last year really wasn't a season given the COVID situation. The year before that we won the Redbox Bowl. Did you want to fire him after that?

Sorry but I just don't understand the reasoning of those who want to fire our head coach two games into a season. If you had the power to do it, what would you do next? Who would you hire and how would that be better? How would a new coach be able to come in and change the things you want to have changed in the blink of an eye? You are not going to be able to hire somebody who can come in and install a new system overnight. So that means you would have to hire from one of the assistants. Who would that be?
Bobodeluxe
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SC just fired a guy who won a PAC12 championship. A proven winner.

Give him a call.
79 Bear
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Oh man, I didn't think of that. Yeah, that's the answer. Let's get the guy who had 4 and 5 star talent but got slaughtered by Stanfurd and give him the job.
remb8888
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79 Bear said:

remb8888 said:

Can someone with knowledge of the inner-workings of high-end donations, the AD office, whatever, explain to me how schools like USC can do this on whim?

I mean sure we're a public school maybe it's tougher because of that but even UCLA seems to be able to get rid of a bad product better than we can.

Schools dedicated to football success don't tolerate 1-1 and a Stanford drubbing. Our program doesn't go anywhere because we tolerate this year after year after year. This C+ product we put on the field mired in mediocrity at a school that has so much more potential than this.


Fired "on whim?" Ask any USC football fan and they will tell you they've been asking to have Helton fired for years.

As for our situation, we are two games into the season and you want to fire the coach? Who do you think should replace him? How many schools fire their coach two games into a season? Last year really wasn't a season given the COVID situation. The year before that we won the Redbox Bowl. Did you want to fire him after that?

Sorry but I just don't understand the reasoning of those who want to fire our head coach two games into a season. If you had the power to do it, what would you do next? Who would you hire and how would that be better? How would a new coach be able to come in and change the things you want to have changed in the blink of an eye? You are not going to be able to hire somebody who can come in and install a new system overnight. So that means you would have to hire from one of the assistants. Who would that be?
I'm just a lowly fan seeing a crap result on the field after giving a coach 5 years to rebuild.

But if you want me to play AD fantasy simulator sure.

1. As for our situation, we are two games into the season and you want to fire the coach?
- Yes. We lost to Nevada and TCU. These are not powerhouse teams. Nevada is a Mountain West team. Not a single conference winning record.

2. Who do you think should replace him? If you had the power to do it, what would you do next? Who would you hire and how would that be better?
- Literally anyone. Give someone else a chance. Fire him now. Promote Musgrave to interim head coach so he can stop calling plays from the 2001 NFL Season and make Burl Toler OC or any high school kid who plays Madden and knows how to call a running play on 3rd and 2 after the last two running plays gained 10+ yards each.

3. How would a new coach be able to come in and change the things you want to have changed in the blink of an eye? You are not going to be able to hire somebody who can come in and install a new system overnight. So that means you would have to hire from one of the assistants. Who would that be?
- They don't. Same system rest of season. Hire someone that has won in the past like Clay Helton in the offseason. Sunk cost fallacy. How many more years and time do you want with Wilcox? You think he'll take us to the Rose Bowl soon? RedBox bowl. I'm really proud of that. I go around on Saturdays to my Duck friends letting them know we're sticking with this guy. He took us to Redbox.


79 Bear
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QED
calumnus
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79 Bear said:

Oh man, I didn't think of that. Yeah, that's the answer. Let's get the guy who had 4 and 5 star talent but got slaughtered by Stanfurd and give him the job.


Since 2017, Stanford has landed 3 Five Star and 28 Four Star recruits. Their 2019 and 2020 classes were ranked higher than USC's.

Tanner McKee, their 6'6" 2020, just back from his Mormon mission, QB was the #3 ranked pro style QB in the country in 2018.

The bottom line is Stanford is probably better than we hoped and USC losing to them yet again (Shaw is 7-5 against USC) is not much of a shock. Since 2007, Stanford has beaten them 10 times. (We have beaten them twice in the last 20 years).
Fyght4Cal
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A native is restless.
79 Bear
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I understand the restlessness and I get where people are coming from, to a point. I think we all do. But to demand that JW be immediately fired two games into the season is a bit much. Now if we lose to Sac State I may have to eat those words.
HungryCalBear
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David Shaw reportedly makes $6.8M a year plus bonus and incentive. Is he a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?

Furd's recruit has consistently ranked higher in recent years. Is that because of coaching, or school tradition, or their winning trend?

I seriously want to know ...
79 Bear
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Nm
calumnus
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HungryCalBear said:

David Shaw reportedly makes $6.8M a year plus bonus and incentive. Is he a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?

Furd's recruit has consistently ranked higher in recent years. Is that because of coaching, or school tradition, or their winning trend?

I seriously want to know ...


Shaw is the perfect coach for Stanford. An alumnus. From the Bay Area. African American. His father coached in the NFL and at Stanford. He played for Bill Walsh and Dennis Green. He coached in the NFL.

He is 91-37. 63-37 in conference. He has won the PAC-12 North 5 times. He has won the PAC-12 Championship 3 times. He has been in the playoffs 4 times. He has had double digit win seasons 5 times.

He is 10-1 in Big Games.

He has taken Stanford to the Rose Bowl 3 times as PAC-12 Champ. He has won the Rose Bowl twice.

We say we want "a Rose Bowl before we die." We revered Tedford and he never won the conference. Imagine if a former Cal player was our coach. Imagine he takes us to the Rose Bowl three times, winning twice. 10-1 in Big Games. Winning record against USC (whereas Tedford was 1-10). Can you imagine?

We pay Wilcox $5 million a year. If we had a HC who was an alum and accomplished what Shaw has we would think another $1.5 million is a bargain. We will probably pay Wilcox that if he just gets a winning conference record once and we extend him.
BearForce2
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remb8888 said:

Can someone with knowledge of the inner-workings of high-end donations, the AD office, whatever, explain to me how schools like USC can do this on whim?

I mean sure we're a public school maybe it's tougher because of that but even UCLA seems to be able to get rid of a bad product better than we can.

Schools dedicated to football success don't tolerate 1-1 and a Stanford drubbing. Our program doesn't go anywhere because we tolerate this year after year after year. This C+ product we put on the field mired in mediocrity at a school that has so much more potential than this.

Clayton wasn't fired because SC is 1-1. Their donors disliked him long before that.
socaliganbear
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calumnus said:

HungryCalBear said:

David Shaw reportedly makes $6.8M a year plus bonus and incentive. Is he a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?

Furd's recruit has consistently ranked higher in recent years. Is that because of coaching, or school tradition, or their winning trend?

I seriously want to know ...


Shaw is the perfect coach for Stanford. An alumnus. From the Bay Area. African American. His father coached in the NFL and at Stanford. He played for Bill Walsh and Dennis Green. He coached in the NFL.

He is 91-37. 63-37 in conference. He has won the PAC-12 North 5 times. He has won the PAC-12 Championship 3 times. He has been in the playoffs 4 times. He has had double digit win seasons 5 times.

He is 10-1 in Big Games.

He has taken Stanford to the Rose Bowl 3 times as PAC-12 Champ. He has won the Rose Bowl twice.

We say we want "a Rose Bowl before we die." We revered Tedford and he never won the conference. Imagine if a former Cal player was our coach. Imagine he takes us to the Rose Bowl three times, winning twice. 10-1 in Big Games. Winning record against USC (whereas Tedford was 1-10). Can you imagine?

We pay Wilcox $5 million a year. If we had a HC who was an alum and accomplished what Shaw has we would think another $1.5 million is a bargain. We will probably pay Wilcox that if he just gets a winning conference record once and we extend him.


We pay Wilcox what now?
calumnus
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socaliganbear said:

calumnus said:

HungryCalBear said:

David Shaw reportedly makes $6.8M a year plus bonus and incentive. Is he a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?

Furd's recruit has consistently ranked higher in recent years. Is that because of coaching, or school tradition, or their winning trend?

I seriously want to know ...


Shaw is the perfect coach for Stanford. An alumnus. From the Bay Area. African American. His father coached in the NFL and at Stanford. He played for Bill Walsh and Dennis Green. He coached in the NFL.

He is 91-37. 63-37 in conference. He has won the PAC-12 North 5 times. He has won the PAC-12 Championship 3 times. He has been in the playoffs 4 times. He has had double digit win seasons 5 times.

He is 10-1 in Big Games.

He has taken Stanford to the Rose Bowl 3 times as PAC-12 Champ. He has won the Rose Bowl twice.

We say we want "a Rose Bowl before we die." We revered Tedford and he never won the conference. Imagine if a former Cal player was our coach. Imagine he takes us to the Rose Bowl three times, winning twice. 10-1 in Big Games. Winning record against USC (whereas Tedford was 1-10). Can you imagine?

We pay Wilcox $5 million a year. If we had a HC who was an alum and accomplished what Shaw has we would think another $1.5 million is a bargain. We will probably pay Wilcox that if he just gets a winning conference record once and we extend him.


We pay Wilcox what now?


Shaw makes $1.5 million more than Wilcox

Here are the base salaries, but is not the total compensation:
https://trojanswire.usatoday.com/2020/10/16/how-the-pac-12-coaches-salaries-stack-up-in-2020/
CAL4LIFE
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ColoradoBear said:

$$$.

The question should be why is it so easy to extend coaches without a winning conference record.


The most cogent post in this thread.
Bobodeluxe
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Easy answer: An alum or two with $ like him. They didn't like Sonny, so they gave him $$$ to go away.

Aw, shucks.
mbBear
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maxer said:

Our donor base is significantly smaller, and our faculty is considerable more hostile to football. Mostly the first thing.
The faculty stuff/excuse is outdated. A post grad program was created to help the athletic program in terms of losing "grad" students. The chancellor has embraced athletics, and worked with the program to organize debt in a way favorable to the athletic dept. Faculty members have embraced the programs instituted under Knowlton which deal with life beyond football, et. al.
If you want to hunt for some engineering prof who isn't a big fan of sports, sure, you can find that if you want too...
Jeff82
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I suspect the answer is that at U$C, if the donors aren't happy with the coach, they tell the AD "Fire him, we'll cover the buyout." If Cal donors would do that, we could get rid of Wilcox tomorrow, if they wanted. The athletic department is not going to pay the buyout at this point, not after two losses and a season that can be excused by COVID. I doubt there's enough donor dislike of Wilcox at this point, or willingness to pony up the buyout, to fire him.
heartofthebear
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The reason why we remain a mediocre program is most prefer it to no program at all. And those are our only choices precisely because we never risk losing the program entirely in order to demand something better. The fact is that we need the program more than the program needs us.
If we walk away (boycott) that might change. But that won't happen because many fans are all too willing to come to memorial stadium on a sunny Saturday afternoon and watch losing football, preferring it to staying home and mowing the lawn.
This isn't the case in some other places like USC. The fans in LA simply won't put up with the crap we put up with.

Wilcox is a non-issue because we will just replace him with someone similar. No one else will work here for the money.

The assistants are not an issue because we will just replace them with someone similar.

The players are not an issue because we don't have the depth to replace them if we bench them.

And recruiting is not an issue because other schools do more with less.

The issue is leadership and passion. Nobody in the program cares enough or has enough leadership to demand quality or staff it. If they did, Starkey would have been replaced years ago.
What people care about in Berkeley is remembering the past.
HuaHin (fka Uthai)
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Bobodeluxe said:

SC just fired a guy who won a PAC12 championship. A proven winner.

Give him a call.
He'd be a better OC than Musgrave.

This is the problem with Cal, we think very small.

Cal should have an OC at Helton's level, a DC at Wilcox's level, and a HC who is a level above that. Instead we have the guy the Raiders fired at OC, Oregon's reject DC and the guy SC fired as DC running the show. No wonder it sucks.
kal kommie
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remb8888 said:

79 Bear said:

remb8888 said:

Can someone with knowledge of the inner-workings of high-end donations, the AD office, whatever, explain to me how schools like USC can do this on whim?

I mean sure we're a public school maybe it's tougher because of that but even UCLA seems to be able to get rid of a bad product better than we can.

Schools dedicated to football success don't tolerate 1-1 and a Stanford drubbing. Our program doesn't go anywhere because we tolerate this year after year after year. This C+ product we put on the field mired in mediocrity at a school that has so much more potential than this.


Fired "on whim?" Ask any USC football fan and they will tell you they've been asking to have Helton fired for years.

As for our situation, we are two games into the season and you want to fire the coach? Who do you think should replace him? How many schools fire their coach two games into a season? Last year really wasn't a season given the COVID situation. The year before that we won the Redbox Bowl. Did you want to fire him after that?

Sorry but I just don't understand the reasoning of those who want to fire our head coach two games into a season. If you had the power to do it, what would you do next? Who would you hire and how would that be better? How would a new coach be able to come in and change the things you want to have changed in the blink of an eye? You are not going to be able to hire somebody who can come in and install a new system overnight. So that means you would have to hire from one of the assistants. Who would that be?
I'm just a lowly fan seeing a crap result on the field after giving a coach 5 years to rebuild.

But if you want me to play AD fantasy simulator sure.

1. As for our situation, we are two games into the season and you want to fire the coach?
- Yes. We lost to Nevada and TCU. These are not powerhouse teams. Nevada is a Mountain West team. Not a single conference winning record.

2. Who do you think should replace him? If you had the power to do it, what would you do next? Who would you hire and how would that be better?
- Literally anyone. Give someone else a chance. Fire him now. Promote Musgrave to interim head coach so he can stop calling plays from the 2001 NFL Season and make Burl Toler OC or any high school kid who plays Madden and knows how to call a running play on 3rd and 2 after the last two running plays gained 10+ yards each.

3. How would a new coach be able to come in and change the things you want to have changed in the blink of an eye? You are not going to be able to hire somebody who can come in and install a new system overnight. So that means you would have to hire from one of the assistants. Who would that be?
- They don't. Same system rest of season. Hire someone that has won in the past like Clay Helton in the offseason. Sunk cost fallacy. How many more years and time do you want with Wilcox? You think he'll take us to the Rose Bowl soon? RedBox bowl. I'm really proud of that. I go around on Saturdays to my Duck friends letting them know we're sticking with this guy. He took us to Redbox.
No matter what happens to Wilcox, hiring Helton is just a horrible, horrible idea.
Golden One
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HungryCalBear said:

Is David Shaw a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?


Hell yes!!! This is not even a close decision. Shaw is light years ahead of Wilcox as a coach, and his record proves it.
Golden One
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socaliganbear said:


We pay Wilcox what now?
A helluva lot more than he's worth!
Golden One
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heartofthebear said:


The issue is leadership and passion. Nobody in the program cares enough or has enough leadership to demand quality or staff it. If they did, Starkey would have been replaced years ago.
What people care about in Berkeley is remembering the past.
Exactly!
heartofthebear
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BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.
Rushinbear
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Money and sense of fair play. Money
remb8888
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heartofthebear said:

BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.
Yeah who cares about that Rose Bowl they won in 2016 and going to another BCS bowl the year afterwards. These guys sorta suck and haven't improved.

Yeah sure it's hard to match the Carroll era but I'll take the above as a Cal fan any day.

Blah blah blah 4 and 5 stars are primmadonnas lets generalize some more. We want only 3* diamonds in the rough character guys blah blah blah. Yawn
calumnus
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heartofthebear said:

BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.


USC, Alabama, tOSU and every NFL team. The belief that you can have "Too many 5 and 4 star players" has long infected the Cal fan psyche. Too many people long for a lunch pail group of 3 stars and walk-ons that somehow get us to the Rose Bowl. Hoosiers. It is behind all the vitriol on this board that was spewed towards 5 star Cal greats and difference makers like DeSean Jackson and Keenan Allen, Or Shareef Adur Rahim and Jaylen Brown in basketball. People here even turned on Marshawn Lynch when he faced bogus accusations early in his NFL career.

The key in the NBA or NFL or a place like USC is having a coach like Pete Carroll, that embraces diverse personalities and let's kids be kids and stars be stars. Marshawn was lucky he landed in Seattle. A place like Cal and Berkeley has always embraced individual expression, that is our comparative advantage. That is why guys like Shareef, Jaylen Brown and Demerits Robertson came here from Georgia. It is goiing to be even more important in the NIL world.
wifeisafurd
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calumnus said:

heartofthebear said:

BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.


USC, Alabama, tOSU and every NFL team. The belief that you can have "Too many 5 and 4 star players" has long infected the Cal fan psyche. Too many people long for a lunch pail group of 3 stars and walk-ons that somehow get us to the Rose Bowl. Hoosiers. It is behind all the vitriol on this board that was spewed towards 5 star Cal greats and difference makers like DeSean Jackson and Keenan Allen, Or Shareef Adur Rahim and Jaylen Brown in basketball. People here even turned on Marshawn Lynch when he faced bogus accusations early in his NFL career.

The key in the NBA or NFL or a place like USC is having a coach like Pete Carroll, that embraces diverse personalities and let's kids be kids and stars be stars. Marshawn was lucky he landed in Seattle. A place like Cal and Berkeley has always embraced individual expression, that is our comparative advantage. That is why guys like Shareef, Jaylen Brown and Demirtis Robertson came here from Georgia. It is goiing to be even more important in the NIL world.
I can recall that the program with the best 10 year record in the Pac was Furd, which has a few 4 and 5 star guys sprinkled in with primarily a lot of 3 star and even 2 star dudes. Great recruiting can make it easier, but it isn't the end all. With the talent SC recruits, even Cal fans would be impatient as SC fans.
remb8888
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wifeisafurd said:

calumnus said:

heartofthebear said:

BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.


USC, Alabama, tOSU and every NFL team. The belief that you can have "Too many 5 and 4 star players" has long infected the Cal fan psyche. Too many people long for a lunch pail group of 3 stars and walk-ons that somehow get us to the Rose Bowl. Hoosiers. It is behind all the vitriol on this board that was spewed towards 5 star Cal greats and difference makers like DeSean Jackson and Keenan Allen, Or Shareef Adur Rahim and Jaylen Brown in basketball. People here even turned on Marshawn Lynch when he faced bogus accusations early in his NFL career.

The key in the NBA or NFL or a place like USC is having a coach like Pete Carroll, that embraces diverse personalities and let's kids be kids and stars be stars. Marshawn was lucky he landed in Seattle. A place like Cal and Berkeley has always embraced individual expression, that is our comparative advantage. That is why guys like Shareef, Jaylen Brown and Demirtis Robertson came here from Georgia. It is goiing to be even more important in the NIL world.
I can recall that the program with the best 10 year record in the Pac was Furd, which has a few 4 and 5 star guys sprinkled in with primarily a lot of 3 star and even 2 star dudes. Great recruiting can make it easier, but it isn't the end all. With the talent SC recruits, even Cal fans would be impatient as SC fans.
Some have been waiting since 1959!

Recruit the 4 and 5 stars. The results will follow. Look at Cristobal.
Big C
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calumnus said:

socaliganbear said:

calumnus said:

HungryCalBear said:

David Shaw reportedly makes $6.8M a year plus bonus and incentive. Is he a better coach than Wilcox? Would you trade Wilcox for Shaw?

Furd's recruit has consistently ranked higher in recent years. Is that because of coaching, or school tradition, or their winning trend?

I seriously want to know ...


Shaw is the perfect coach for Stanford. An alumnus. From the Bay Area. African American. His father coached in the NFL and at Stanford. He played for Bill Walsh and Dennis Green. He coached in the NFL.

He is 91-37. 63-37 in conference. He has won the PAC-12 North 5 times. He has won the PAC-12 Championship 3 times. He has been in the playoffs 4 times. He has had double digit win seasons 5 times.

He is 10-1 in Big Games.

He has taken Stanford to the Rose Bowl 3 times as PAC-12 Champ. He has won the Rose Bowl twice.

We say we want "a Rose Bowl before we die." We revered Tedford and he never won the conference. Imagine if a former Cal player was our coach. Imagine he takes us to the Rose Bowl three times, winning twice. 10-1 in Big Games. Winning record against USC (whereas Tedford was 1-10). Can you imagine?

We pay Wilcox $5 million a year. If we had a HC who was an alum and accomplished what Shaw has we would think another $1.5 million is a bargain. We will probably pay Wilcox that if he just gets a winning conference record once and we extend him.


We pay Wilcox what now?


Shaw makes $1.5 million more than Wilcox

Here are the base salaries, but is not the total compensation:
https://trojanswire.usatoday.com/2020/10/16/how-the-pac-12-coaches-salaries-stack-up-in-2020/


I'd like to see the total compensation that says Wilcox makes 5 million, because I thought it was less than that.

Obviously, Shaw has been GREAT at Stanford; we would have loved to have had a coach here have a run like that. Even if he might have piggybacked on what Harbaugh started, gotta give credit where credit is due. However, as little as two weeks ago, it looked like his program was declining somewhat and ours was ascending.
calumnus
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wifeisafurd said:

calumnus said:

heartofthebear said:

BTW, I don't know why the OP is using USC as a model. Ever since Carrol left for the NFL, USC has been hiring and firing coaches every few years with no resl improvement in the program. I'm sure that USC will actually be worse without Helton due to the lack of stability now created there. As is the case at Cal, the real problem at USC has nothing to do with the HC. I suspect it has more to do with the fact that too many 4 and 5 star players makes for a roster full of primadonnas. Of course that never stopped tOSU, Bama or Clemson but maybe LA factors into it as well somehow.


USC, Alabama, tOSU and every NFL team. The belief that you can have "Too many 5 and 4 star players" has long infected the Cal fan psyche. Too many people long for a lunch pail group of 3 stars and walk-ons that somehow get us to the Rose Bowl. Hoosiers. It is behind all the vitriol on this board that was spewed towards 5 star Cal greats and difference makers like DeSean Jackson and Keenan Allen, Or Shareef Adur Rahim and Jaylen Brown in basketball. People here even turned on Marshawn Lynch when he faced bogus accusations early in his NFL career.

The key in the NBA or NFL or a place like USC is having a coach like Pete Carroll, that embraces diverse personalities and let's kids be kids and stars be stars. Marshawn was lucky he landed in Seattle. A place like Cal and Berkeley has always embraced individual expression, that is our comparative advantage. That is why guys like Shareef, Jaylen Brown and Demirtis Robertson came here from Georgia. It is goiing to be even more important in the NIL world.
I can recall that the program with the best 10 year record in the Pac was Furd, which has a few 4 and 5 star guys sprinkled in with primarily a lot of 3 star and even 2 star dudes. Great recruiting can make it easier, but it isn't the end all. With the talent SC recruits, even Cal fans would be impatient as SC fans.


That is a Stanford myth. According to 247 they brought in 6 Five stars and 57 Four stars during that period who mostly played 4 years. That means they had 20-25 Four and Five Star players in any given year. That is far better than Cal under Tedford. They have had more 5 and 4 star talent than UCLA, UW, ASU, Utah….importantly they have brought in top QBs and RBs, even 5 star OL and TEs. Of course, bringing in skinny 3 stars who added 50 lbs of chiseled muscle in their first year "using The Glove" also helped.

Their decline coincides with the firing under a cloud of some scandal the S&C guy Harbaugh brought with him.
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