The last coach who beat both Furd and SC multiple times was Mike White who coached from 1972 to 1977, so what we just saw these past several years, we haven't seen a coach do since the mid-70s.

• Dykes won none of those games
• Tedford only beat SC once
• Tedford's predecessor had a winning streak versus SC but never won the Axe
• Keith Gilbertson never beat SC
• Bruce Snyder despite his great accomplishments never won the Axe
• Joe Kapp only beat SC once
• Roger Theder never beat SC
• Mike White beat #4 USC in 1975 and #10 USC in 1977, and won the Axe in 1972 and 1975

So what's the upshot here? Wilcox has won games that matter but has been mediocre otherwise, Mike White on the other hand produced a squad that nearly got to Pasadena in 1975 except SC flubbed their game versus UCLA and we settled for a share of the conference championship, which we would not win again until the 2006 co-championship. Can Wilcox produce a squad that can win the North and possibly the PAC-12, he might be able to, this season had a bunch of one-score losses which if they went the other way would have won us the division.

Wilcox will probably get a minor extension in light of this but he needs to start buzzing prospects in the portal, this season killed recruiting and only what I pointed out above is what is keeping him off the immediate hot seat. The trip to South Bend will be a barometer of where this program is, and also his first game against Lincoln Riley will be critical in understanding if he can be a decent coach, or if these wins were much less significant than they otherwise historically are.

let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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This was the worst SC team I can remember and this was probably their worst game of the season. Glad for the win against them, but any Cal coach with a pulse should have won today, and we did despite not playing very well.

Strykur said:

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The last coach who beat both Furd and SC multiple times was Mike White who coached from 1972 to 1977, so what we just saw these past several years, we haven't seen a coach do since the mid-70s.

• Dykes won none of those games
• Tedford only beat SC once
• Tedford's predecessor had a winning streak versus SC but never won the Axe
• Keith Gilbertson never beat SC
• Bruce Snyder despite his great accomplishments never won the Axe
• Joe Kapp only beat SC once
• Roger Theder never beat SC
• Mike White beat #4 USC in 1975 and #10 USC in 1977, and won the Axe in 1972 and 1975

So what's the upshot here? Wilcox has won games that matter but has been mediocre otherwise, Mike White on the other hand produced a squad that nearly got to Pasadena in 1975 except SC flubbed their game versus UCLA and we settled for a share of the conference championship, which we would not win again until the 2006 co-championship. Can Wilcox produce a squad that can win the North and possibly the PAC-12, he might be able to, this season had a bunch of one-score losses which if they went the other way would have won us the division.

Wilcox will probably get a minor extension in light of this but he needs to start buzzing prospects in the portal, this season killed recruiting and only what I pointed out above is what is keeping him off the immediate hot seat. The trip to South Bend will be a barometer of where this program is, and also his first game against Lincoln Riley will be critical in understanding if he can be a decent coach, or if these wins were much less significant than they otherwise historically are.

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This is very misleading. Furd and USC are usually winning teams. The last season that Furd and USC both had losing records was 2000. The last season Cal beat both Furd and USC was 2003 when USC earned a national title split with LSU. Cal handed USC their only loss that year. That was much more impressive than Wilcox's victories over 2 USC teams that had losing records. A similar thing can be said about Wilcox's wins over Furd. What has been more impressive are the Wilcox victories over Washington and WSU in consecutive seasons when those teams were ranked.

Dykes at Cal will probably be the only coach in Cal history to beat Texas twice but how impressive was that? Were those Texas teams any good. More impressive were the 2 games that Dykes coached against Wittingham and Utah. He went 1-1 in those games. Similarly his 1-1 record against Northwestern was impressive to me. Dykes also ended long losing streaks to Oregon and Washington. But, again, the Oregon win was when the Ducks were down.

We don't play laundry or history. We play opponents--players who, on game day, have their own level of play independent of that history. We need to not be seduced by beating laundry in years when the players wearing it are not very good.

USC, while racking up decent stats, was the most self-destructive team I've seen play Cal in some time. They were not very good. And they would have beaten Cal had they not been so self-destructive. For Cal to score only 17 points on offense against that USC defense, is really concerning. However, I thought the defense was extremely impressive, especially in the red zone.

calumnus said:

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flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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This was the worst SC team I can remember and this was probably their worst game of the season. Glad for the win against them, but any Cal coach with a pulse should have won today, and we did despite not playing very well.

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In the post-Pete Carroll era, there were several USC teams that looked beatable, but Cal just couldn't beat them. I seriously thought that Cal players were intimidated every time they played USC after 2004 and before 2018. Even though the 2018 USC team was bad, it was great just to get that monkey off that back.

It reminds of Tedford and Southern California. Tedford was 2-13 in games played in Southern California (6 of those 15 games were vs. USC). Why was that? At Fresno State, Tedford was 2-1 in games played in Southern California.

okaydo said:

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calumnus said:

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flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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This was the worst SC team I can remember and this was probably their worst game of the season. Glad for the win against them, but any Cal coach with a pulse should have won today, and we did despite not playing very well.

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In the post-Pete Carroll era, there were several USC teams that looked beatable, but Cal just couldn't beat them. I seriously thought that Cal players were intimidated every time they played USC after 2004 and before 2018. Even though the 2018 USC team was bad, it was great just to get that monkey off that back.

It reminds of Tedford and Southern California. Tedford was 2-13 in games played in Southern California (6 of those 15 games were vs. USC). Why was that? At Fresno State, Tedford was 2-1 in games played in Southern California.

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Everybody brings up the SoCal thing, but against SC in particular Tedford's teams always seemed apprehensive or overwhelmed against them, in 2009 we had the back-to-back 72-3 combined shellackings by Oregon and SC which I blame on the simplicity and stupidity of Andy Ludwig's schemes, but in 2010 when we got bombed 42-0 in the first half and then were dominated in 2011 that is when I knew Tedford had some sort of incapacitation against SC and would never beat them despite Carroll being gone.

These were historically bad teams.

Means absolutely nothing and you know that.

Beating SC in 2005 vs 2021

Wilcox has coached in the weakest pac12 I can remember and somehow STILL has a losing extremely bad conference record. Hes much worse than JT, and even dykes.

We should fire him today

heartofthebear said:

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Strykur said:

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The last coach who beat both Furd and SC multiple times was Mike White who coached from 1972 to 1977, so what we just saw these past several years, we haven't seen a coach do since the mid-70s.

• Dykes won none of those games
• Tedford only beat SC once
• Tedford's predecessor had a winning streak versus SC but never won the Axe
• Keith Gilbertson never beat SC
• Bruce Snyder despite his great accomplishments never won the Axe
• Joe Kapp only beat SC once
• Roger Theder never beat SC
• Mike White beat #4 USC in 1975 and #10 USC in 1977, and won the Axe in 1972 and 1975

So what's the upshot here? Wilcox has won games that matter but has been mediocre otherwise, Mike White on the other hand produced a squad that nearly got to Pasadena in 1975 except SC flubbed their game versus UCLA and we settled for a share of the conference championship, which we would not win again until the 2006 co-championship. Can Wilcox produce a squad that can win the North and possibly the PAC-12, he might be able to, this season had a bunch of one-score losses which if they went the other way would have won us the division.

Wilcox will probably get a minor extension in light of this but he needs to start buzzing prospects in the portal, this season killed recruiting and only what I pointed out above is what is keeping him off the immediate hot seat. The trip to South Bend will be a barometer of where this program is, and also his first game against Lincoln Riley will be critical in understanding if he can be a decent coach, or if these wins were much less significant than they otherwise historically are.

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This is very misleading. Furd and USC are usually winning teams. The last season that Furd and USC both had losing records was 2000. The last season Cal beat both Furd and USC was 2003 when USC earned a national title split with LSU. Cal handed USC their only loss that year. That was much more impressive than Wilcox's victories over 2 USC teams that had losing records. A similar thing can be said about Wilcox's wins over Furd. What has been more impressive are the Wilcox victories over Washington and WSU in consecutive seasons when those teams were ranked.

Dykes at Cal will probably be the only coach in Cal history to beat Texas twice but how impressive was that? Were those Texas teams any good. More impressive were the 2 games that Dykes coached against Wittingham and Utah. He went 1-1 in those games. Similarly his 1-1 record against Northwestern was impressive to me. Dykes also ended long losing streaks to Oregon and Washington. But, again, the Oregon win was when the Ducks were down.

We don't play laundry or history. We play opponents--players who, on game day, have their own level of play independent of that history. We need to not be seduced by beating laundry in years when the players wearing it are not very good.

USC, while racking up decent stats, was the most self-destructive team I've seen play Cal in some time. They were not very good. And they would have beaten Cal had they not been so self-destructive. For Cal to score only 17 points on offense against that USC defense, is really concerning. However, I thought the defense was extremely impressive, especially in the red zone.

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…and Tom Holmoe will probably be the only coach in Cal history to beat Oklahoma twice but how impressive was that? Were those Oklahoma teams any good?

In addition, Tom Holmoe's teams beat USC three consecutive seasons.

So much depends on the cycle in which programs find themselves. Holmoe was fortunate to play against OK and SC during their down cycles and Tedford was particularly unlucky to play SC when they were at their best. Otherwise, Cal won have been in Pasadena on New Year's Day a couple times on his watch.

StarsDoMatter said:

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Means absolutely nothing and you know that.

Beating SC in 2005 vs 2021

Wilcox has coached in the weakest pac12 I can remember and somehow STILL has a losing extremely bad conference record. Hes much worse than JT, and even dykes.

We should fire him today

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His stubbornness/conservative nature cost the team a win against a horrible Zona team. No bowl game, no extra practices, perhaps a cost in recruiting...

Holmoe beat SC 3 years in a row and both SC and ucla in the same year twice. Holmoe had a 23% conference winning % and Wilcox is now at 38%. Hardly world-beater stuff Wilcox is accomplishing which is just par the course for the Cal football team.

It means Furd and SC suck now.

IMO the comparison is relative right. SC was good then but you guys wish Cal was this good now as in those days…So yes it still is very meaningful…

Remember this game? Still one of my favorites…

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVmom-rM30AhVuLTQIHXyWAggQtwJ6BAgEEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DizyzmVNwFhY&usg=AOvVaw1vBPEvj8U1NuyX0OGd_yBj

No one mentioned Ray Willsey beating both USC (ranked in the top 20) and Stanford (which won the Rose Bowl) in 1970. Not 2 pencilneck teams.
Mike White tied USC 15-15 in 1974. USC won the national Championship. Cal played the game without Chuck Muncie who was injured. Steve Bartkowski drove Cal close enough to try a winning FG at the end. CAL missed THE FG ATTEMP.

We beat OU twice? Any chance there's video of this? I clearly need to read up, and I don't care how bad they were

SadbutTrue999 said:

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We beat OU twice? Any chance there's video of this? I clearly need to read up, and I don't care how bad they were

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1997: 40-36 @ Berkeley
1998: 13-12 @ Norman

Great games even if OK was not very good….

Goobear said:

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Remember this game? Still one of my favorites…

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVmom-rM30AhVuLTQIHXyWAggQtwJ6BAgEEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DizyzmVNwFhY&usg=AOvVaw1vBPEvj8U1NuyX0OGd_yBj

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SO MUCH of beating $C is overcoming their intimidation. Remember, these are 18+ year olds, and a lot of the game is psychological. $C has talent, usually better coaching, and everything about that program is designed to intimidate. That azz-wipe band, the constant playing of that lame song, the horse, the waving V-fingers.

Somewhere in one of these videos (could even have been this 2018 game?, altho I didn't see it in this clip), one of the Cal lineman (Addy, maybe?), as Cal is driving to the $C end zone, turns and 'barks' at the trojan defense. As if to say - we got you, you can't beat us, you're done. That's the attitude that beats the Toejams.

And yup, this is in my top five (number one is the '91 game, stomping 'em at Memorial, while I'm sitting with my in-laws, big Trojan fans, in the visitor's section, obnoxiously cheering and making a fool of myself)

Under the circumstances I don't believe other years compare much. For the coaches to EVEN have this team motivated to play hard and win is huge! Especially after the Ucla game. Kudos to Wilcox for keeping this team on focus - It didn't even have to be USC - the Bears fought and executed - especially on defense, which usually wins games. No, firing Wilcox is a mistake. The recovery from Arizona and Ucla was something many coaches could not manufacture and Musgrave also has to be congratulated. A nice springboard game for a change that I feel will actually help recruiting if anyone stayed up late enough! The team plays hard for Wilcox - not like the teams that fizzled out on JT and Dykes Team chemistry often wins games in spite of talent. I get the feeling the best trait of this Bear squad is that they all trust and support one another - that comes from the top. They are survivors and showed it last night!

Did Holmoe have to vacate those Oklahoma wins?

flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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We know quality is absent in their coaching staff but as far as recruits go, aren't they still top 2 in the conference if not the best?

OldenBear said:

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Goobear said:

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Remember this game? Still one of my favorites…

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjVmom-rM30AhVuLTQIHXyWAggQtwJ6BAgEEAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DizyzmVNwFhY&usg=AOvVaw1vBPEvj8U1NuyX0OGd_yBj

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SO MUCH of beating $C is overcoming their intimidation. Remember, these are 18+ year olds, and a lot of the game is psychological. $C has talent, usually better coaching, and everything about that program is designed to intimidate. That azz-wipe band, the constant playing of that lame song, the horse, the waving V-fingers.

Somewhere in one of these videos (could even have been this 2018 game?, altho I didn't see it in this clip), one of the Cal lineman (Addy, maybe?), as Cal is driving to the $C end zone, turns and 'barks' at the trojan defense. As if to say - we got you, you can't beat us, you're done. That's the attitude that beats the Toejams.

And yup, this is in my top five (number one is the '91 game, stomping 'em at Memorial, while I'm sitting with my in-laws, big Trojan fans, in the visitor's section, obnoxiously cheering and making a fool of myself)

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Yup my kid lol

LateHit said:

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Did Holmoe have to vacate those Oklahoma wins?

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My recollection is the games were played. All that nonsense after the fact is just nonsense. I feel that way about every team in the country that played and won regardless what the NCAA says.

Cal beat OK twice. Period.

BearForce2 said:

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flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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We know quality is absent in their coaching staff but as far as recruits go, aren't they still top 2 in the conference if not the best?

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Look at all the teams they lost to this year. They are terrible.

calumnus said:

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BearForce2 said:

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flounder said:

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let's be honest about the quality of SC teams WIlcox has beat, compared to those Tedford lost to.

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We know quality is absent in their coaching staff but as far as recruits go, aren't they still top 2 in the conference if not the best?

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Look at all the teams they lost to this year. They are terrible.

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Understood. Based on what I saw yesterday, the talent is there, even their backup QB's showed skills.

Looking at it from another angle, Garbers quarterbacked the team to two wins vs. Furd, two vs. $C, one vs. The Southern Branch, two vs. Washington, and one vs. Oregon. I cherish those victories.

EDIT:
I also really enjoyed the win at Ole Miss, because we went deep into SEC territory and prevailed.

Strykur said:

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The last coach who beat both Furd and SC multiple times was Mike White who coached from 1972 to 1977, so what we just saw these past several years, we haven't seen a coach do since the mid-70s.

• Dykes won none of those games
• Tedford only beat SC once
• Tedford's predecessor had a winning streak versus SC but never won the Axe
• Keith Gilbertson never beat SC
• Bruce Snyder despite his great accomplishments never won the Axe
• Joe Kapp only beat SC once
• Roger Theder never beat SC
• Mike White beat #4 USC in 1975 and #10 USC in 1977, and won the Axe in 1972 and 1975

So what's the upshot here? Wilcox has won games that matter but has been mediocre otherwise, Mike White on the other hand produced a squad that nearly got to Pasadena in 1975 except SC flubbed their game versus UCLA and we settled for a share of the conference championship, which we would not win again until the 2006 co-championship. Can Wilcox produce a squad that can win the North and possibly the PAC-12, he might be able to, this season had a bunch of one-score losses which if they went the other way would have won us the division.

Wilcox will probably get a minor extension in light of this but he needs to start buzzing prospects in the portal, this season killed recruiting and only what I pointed out above is what is keeping him off the immediate hot seat. The trip to South Bend will be a barometer of where this program is, and also his first game against Lincoln Riley will be critical in understanding if he can be a decent coach, or if these wins were much less significant than they otherwise historically are.

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Wilcox? You mean Chase Garbers is the first QB since Joe Kapp to win twice against USC and Furd....

While SC and Furd do suck, aren't they both stocked with multiple years of higher recruited classes than Cal?

Wow you Wilcox sunshine pumpers are special. And that isn't a compliment.

Holmoe had a lot of wins against SC teams too. And the teams he beat weren't as bad as the ones Wilcox has beaten.

The comparisons between Wilcox and Holmoe are entirely valid. As are the comparisons between the Wilcox pumpers and the Holmoe pumpers. A lot of stupid, low-expectation fans who cling to mediocrity.

There's a reason why Ole Miss - a team Cal beat twice and that was firmly in the SEC basement as recently as three years ago - is in the top ten while Cal can't even compete in the pathetic Pac 12.

71Bear said:

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LateHit said:

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Did Holmoe have to vacate those Oklahoma wins?

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My recollection is the games were played. All that nonsense after the fact is just nonsense. I feel that way about every team in the country that played and won regardless what the NCAA says.

Cal beat OK twice. Period.

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Exactly. The Mercury News "investigative" hit job on Cal football and the question of whether Ainsworth and Davenport incorrectly passed a 2 unit class that everyone passed was BS. They had good grades otherwise. We won the games. I feel the same way about our losses Reggie Bush's USC teams. We lost. Whether or not his stepfather was loaned money from a booster an agent or whatever, did not affect the actual game.

calumnus said:

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Exactly. The Mercury News "investigative" hit job on Cal football and the question of whether Ainsworth and Davenport incorrectly passed a 2 unit class that everyone passed was BS. They had good grades otherwise. We won the games. I feel the same way about our losses Reggie Bush's USC teams. We lost. Whether or not his stepfather was loaned money from a booster an agent or whatever, did not affect the actual game.

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The OK games were played in 1997 and 1998, I thought the alleged violations happened in 1999.