wifeisafurd said:

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juarezbear said:

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BearSD said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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3) Number of people involved and time period covered and breath of allegations. Mine involved a limited number of employees. I suspend the Michigan case is the same way.

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C'mon. We can all tell that you're in McKeever's corner, but don't make things up.

The fired Michigan provost's misconduct was not found to be "limited". He was investigated for alleged misconduct over a 20-year period, and the university ultimately paid settlements to eight women. Given the time span and the number of allegations, they almost surely had to speak with many people who were no longer connected with the university. Even so it was only two months between when they announced the investigation and when he was fired, and they didn't wait for the law firm's final report (no doubt stuffed to justify the big invoices) to be released.

If Michigan can make the relevant employment decision in that extensive case in two months, UC Berkeley can do the same here -- if the powers-that-be want to.

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Wife isn't in McKeever's corner. Like myself and everybody else on this board, he's expressed disgust at the allegations. That being said, Wife is railing against many posts that amount to a witch hunt type atmosphere where McKeever isn't given due process and the University is expected to conduct a quick bogus investigation with a pre-determined outcome. At least that's how I see it.

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yea, I'm trying not to draw strong opinions until investigative information is provided to the public, if ever. The allegations are bad.

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I find it interesting that there weren't more transfers away from the program, considering that in this portal day and time, student athletes are transferring for just about any reason. The girl from our HS in Pa was quoted in the article, and that's fine, but in reality, her times weren't breaking her into the rotation, she was able to get into Penn, and now her times make her an all Ivy league athlete. But, for the most part, the recruited swimmers could compete anywhere-why stay?
And maybe more left than I realize....thoughts?

bearsandgiants said:

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mbBear said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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juarezbear said:

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BearSD said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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3) Number of people involved and time period covered and breath of allegations. Mine involved a limited number of employees. I suspend the Michigan case is the same way.

---

C'mon. We can all tell that you're in McKeever's corner, but don't make things up.

The fired Michigan provost's misconduct was not found to be "limited". He was investigated for alleged misconduct over a 20-year period, and the university ultimately paid settlements to eight women. Given the time span and the number of allegations, they almost surely had to speak with many people who were no longer connected with the university. Even so it was only two months between when they announced the investigation and when he was fired, and they didn't wait for the law firm's final report (no doubt stuffed to justify the big invoices) to be released.

If Michigan can make the relevant employment decision in that extensive case in two months, UC Berkeley can do the same here -- if the powers-that-be want to.

---

Wife isn't in McKeever's corner. Like myself and everybody else on this board, he's expressed disgust at the allegations. That being said, Wife is railing against many posts that amount to a witch hunt type atmosphere where McKeever isn't given due process and the University is expected to conduct a quick bogus investigation with a pre-determined outcome. At least that's how I see it.

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yea, I'm trying not to draw strong opinions until investigative information is provided to the public, if ever. The allegations are bad.

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I find it interesting that there weren't more transfers away from the program, considering that in this portal day and time, student athletes are transferring for just about any reason. The girl from our HS in Pa was quoted in the article, and that's fine, but in reality, her times weren't breaking her into the rotation, she was able to get into Penn, and now her times make her an all Ivy league athlete. But, for the most part, the recruited swimmers could compete anywhere-why stay?
And maybe more left than I realize....thoughts?

---

Tons of reasons why someone might stay. Friends on the team, domestic partner attachment, proximity to home, prioritizing academics, thinking this is their best shot at the olympics, wanting to play for a championship team. Same reason people stuck around and put up with Bobby Knight's nonsense.

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That's fair...but certainly would be harder to bring legal action, IMO. I will say this as a parent: if my kid is that unhappy, to the point of depression etc...they aren't staying, that's for sure.
Having once been friends with a player from an IU championship team, and hearing Bobby Knight stories, I think (from only reading stuff, so who knows) the McKeever stuff goes further....different time and place, but he loved Knight. I guess in time we will see if anyone is willing to stand up for McKeever in that same way.

The most important Rule of a negative reinforcement coached teams is:

Not just negative coaching ... but negative recruiting as well.

"Missy didnt progress at Cal"

"Both Missy and Natalie wound up training with the Men's team"

DiabloWags said:

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Not just negative coaching ... but negative recruiting as well.

"Missy didnt progress at Cal"

"Both Missy and Natalie wound up training with the Men's team"

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With all the you mentioned - women training under the men coach and the decrease in women recruiting after the fab 4 and then winning a NCAA 'ship immediately shouldn't Durden been aware of coach Teri's accusers. The coaching fraternity is pretty small you would think they all talk among themselves especially if this have been going around for so many years.

OBear073akaSMFan said:

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DiabloWags said:

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Not just negative coaching ... but negative recruiting as well.

"Missy didnt progress at Cal"

"Both Missy and Natalie wound up training with the Men's team"

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With all the you mentioned - women training under the men coach and the decrease in women recruiting after the fab 4 and then winning a NCAA 'ship immediately shouldn't Durden been aware of coach Teri's accusers. The coaching fraternity is pretty small you would think they all talk among themselves especially if this have been going around for so many years.

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Not Durden's job specifically, but okay, to go that direction-maybe Durden was aware, and in fact said something. What was done with that information was certainly out of his hands.
But we don't even know if Knowlton talked to McKeever, gave her a "warning," etc. And the parents and athletes wouldn't necessarily know that either. I think you start getting into HR stuff, and you can't assume what is known and what isn't.
IF Knowlton et. al. thought this wouldn't/couldn't get to the media, then they were truly kidding themselves. This wasn't Beach Volleyball...McKeever was highly successful in a high profile Olympic sport, and in fact headed the Olympic team herself...there wasn't going to be a consensus of "who cares" among real media folks...

mbBear said:

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Not Durden's job specifically, but okay, to go that direction-maybe Durden was aware, and in fact said something. What was done with that information was certainly out of his hands.
But we don't even know if Knowlton talked to McKeever, gave her a "warning," etc. And the parents and athletes wouldn't necessarily know that either. I think you start getting into HR stuff, and you can't assume what is known and what isn't.

IF Knowlton et. al. thought this wouldn't/couldn't get to the media, then they were truly kidding themselves. This wasn't Beach Volleyball...McKeever was highly successful in a high profile Olympic sport, and in fact headed the Olympic team herself...there wasn't going to be a consensus of "who cares" among real media folks...

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Agreed.

It wasnt specifically Durden's job and yes, he could have made someone in IAD "aware" but who knows what was done with that information. Of course, this is mere speculation on my part but I suspect that the Chief of Staff and Head Woman's Administrator Jennifer Simon-O'Neill (along with other athletic department staff members) will be at the forefront of the Munger & Tolles investigation to determine what exactly, if anything, happened with these complaints.

As for Knowlton, I continue to not be impressed.
It's mind-boggling that he got extended out to 2029.

calumnus said:

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BearGoggles said:

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calumnus said:

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WIAF, the Richard Corso case would seem to be easily the most relevant from Cal's perspective. Not exactly the same (he "resigned" under pressure, claimed he was discriminated against for being a man) but a lot of similarities, including women in swimming pools, a lot of success, Olympics, Hall of Fame status, a university and NCAA investigation into "overtraining"….

There are no articles except that he sued. I can only see that the case was filed in Alameda Superior Court in 2016 with those documents on line. However, the status is listed as "Pending." Presumably he agreed to a settlement or otherwise did not pursue further? If he actually prevailed in court I would think that would be News and there would be something on the Web? Nothing about it in his Twitter either.

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I think the merits and outcome of Corso's case is only marginally important. I think the real issue is that claims apparently can be brought outside the four corners of the contract (the Corso case shows that), so Cal needs to be prepared to litigate/defend. If that's the legal reality, then regardless of the contract verbiage or merits, Cal needs to follow the stated procedures and properly paper the file. And, of course, there are people other than McKeever whose jobs could (and should) be on the line.

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Of course claims can be brought outside the four counters of the contract. They always can. The question is if they can prevail. The contract at the end of paragraph 12 specifically states that if the university opts for the buyout and McKeever (and presumably Corso) sues, they forfeit the buyout.

One complication here is Corso resigned rather than let Cal dismiss him. I remember when Tom Holmoe resigned at the end of the season in 2001. Then, likely upon the advice of his attorney, unresigned. He was then dismissed by Cal and was given his buyout.

Maybe Corso's complaint was really at its core that he only resigned under pressure?

If Corso ended up accepting the contractural buyout amount, that would tell us a lot. It would mean that basically the contract prevails. If it was closer to $1 million, that would tell us a lot. It would mean Cal probably believes it has liability issues outside the contract that it needs to protect against if McKeever is dismissed.

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The question is not if the claims can prevail. The question is how you defend them (and how you prepare to defend them) knowing the claims are likely.

bearsandgiants said:

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mbBear said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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juarezbear said:

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BearSD said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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3) Number of people involved and time period covered and breath of allegations. Mine involved a limited number of employees. I suspend the Michigan case is the same way.

---

C'mon. We can all tell that you're in McKeever's corner, but don't make things up.

The fired Michigan provost's misconduct was not found to be "limited". He was investigated for alleged misconduct over a 20-year period, and the university ultimately paid settlements to eight women. Given the time span and the number of allegations, they almost surely had to speak with many people who were no longer connected with the university. Even so it was only two months between when they announced the investigation and when he was fired, and they didn't wait for the law firm's final report (no doubt stuffed to justify the big invoices) to be released.

If Michigan can make the relevant employment decision in that extensive case in two months, UC Berkeley can do the same here -- if the powers-that-be want to.

---

Wife isn't in McKeever's corner. Like myself and everybody else on this board, he's expressed disgust at the allegations. That being said, Wife is railing against many posts that amount to a witch hunt type atmosphere where McKeever isn't given due process and the University is expected to conduct a quick bogus investigation with a pre-determined outcome. At least that's how I see it.

---

yea, I'm trying not to draw strong opinions until investigative information is provided to the public, if ever. The allegations are bad.

---

I find it interesting that there weren't more transfers away from the program, considering that in this portal day and time, student athletes are transferring for just about any reason. The girl from our HS in Pa was quoted in the article, and that's fine, but in reality, her times weren't breaking her into the rotation, she was able to get into Penn, and now her times make her an all Ivy league athlete. But, for the most part, the recruited swimmers could compete anywhere-why stay?
And maybe more left than I realize....thoughts?

---

Tons of reasons why someone might stay. Friends on the team, domestic partner attachment, proximity to home, prioritizing academics, thinking this is their best shot at the olympics, wanting to play for a championship team. Same reason people stuck around and put up with Bobby Knight's nonsense.

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I think athletes in Olympic sports tend to be more focused on academics and post-college careers - so giving up a Cal education to go elsewhere for a lesser degree would be an issue for lots of swimmers. I noticed that at least one of the swimmers on record as complaining is still a student at Cal finishing her degree (but no longer on the team).

Also, since there are limited numbers of swimming scholarships (which I'm guessing are split between athletes like in other sports), transferring to another school could be considerably more expensive, particularly for students who get in-state tuition at Cal.

Knight used racial epithets and ousted personal medical information, as alleged?

That's the spirt slap your players like it's the 1962 Green Bay Packers.

A rough breakdown of those former Cal swimmers who support Catherine Breed's Instagram post supporting Coach Teri McKeever.

Natalie Coughlin Hall - 2006
Erin Reilly - 2007
Erica Dagg - 2011
Felica Lee (Stanford) - 2014
Taylor Nanfria - 2015
Melanie Klaren - 2015
Caroline Piehl - 2015
Yvette Kong - 2015
Kelly Naze - 2016
Rachel Aker - 2016
Rachel Bootsma - 2016
Kristen Vredeveld - 2017

Valerie Hull - 2018
Maija Roses - 2018
Matt Whittle - 2018
Chenoa Devine - 2018 (isn't she one of the accusers)
Katie Mclaughlin - 2019
Abbey Weitzeil - 2020
Natalie Tuck - 2021
Sarah Darcel - 2021
Ali Harrison** - 2021 (transfered to Duke for 5th year)
Alicia Wilson - 2022

Nina Kucheran* - 2023 (new recruit, 5th year)

BearGoggles said:

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Doesn't really address the larger point and all the other links I posted which were not mistaken.

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There is no larger point because you're terribly ignorant.
You're links are meaningless.

movielover said:

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A rough breakdown of those former Cal swimmers who support Catherine Breed's Instagram post supporting Coach Teri Teri McKeever.

Natalie Coughlin Hall - 2006
Erin Reilly - 2007
Erica Dagg - 2011
Felica Lee (Stanford) - 2014
Taylor Nanfria - 2015
Melanie Klaren - 2015
Caroline Piehl - 2015
Yvette Kong - 2015
Kelly Naze - 2016
Rachel Aker - 2016
Rachel Bootsma - 2016
Kristen Vredeveld - 2017

Valerie Hull - 2018
Maija Roses - 2018
Matt Whittle - 2018
Chenoa Devine - 2018 (isn't she one of the accusers)
Katie Mclaughlin - 2019
Abbey Weitzeil - 2020
Natalie Tuck - 2021
Sarah Darcel - 2021
Ali Harrison** - 2021 (transfered to Duke for 5th year)
Alicia Wilson - 2022

Nina Kucheran* - 2023 (new recruit, 5th year)

---

Interesting.
But I dont know why people are highlighting "likes".

It's still relatively anonymous in that you dont have to come forward and give an interview.

Let me know when Natalie, Rachel Bootsma, or Abbie Weitzeil go on record.

And yes, Chenoa Devine is one of the accusers of abuse.

movielover said:

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Knight used racial epithets and ousted personal medical information, as alleged?

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Don't know about that, but I'm guessing you'd rank Teri's alleged as being more severe than physical abuse, mental abuse, throwing chairs at people, and making no bones about running people off to free up schollies. He wa arguably the most successful coach in IU history in their premier sport and was summarily dismissed for cause.

Boot said:

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That's the spirt slap your players like it's the 1962 Green Bay Packers.

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Thanks for making my point for me…

movielover said:

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Knight used racial epithets and ousted personal medical information, as alleged?

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According to Butch Carter, who was an Indiana team captain in the late 70s, yes on both counts, though he said he was not the target and Isiah Thomas denied the speculation that he was the target. However that was not what Knight was dismissed for two decades later.

Interesting to see that Knight made $163,000 back then.

"I think that if rape is inevitable, relax, and enjoy it"

- - - Bobby Knight, April 1988 interview with Connie Chung

juarezbear said:

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mbBear said:

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bearsandgiants said:

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mbBear said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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juarezbear said:

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BearSD said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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3) Number of people involved and time period covered and breath of allegations. Mine involved a limited number of employees. I suspend the Michigan case is the same way.

---

C'mon. We can all tell that you're in McKeever's corner, but don't make things up.

The fired Michigan provost's misconduct was not found to be "limited". He was investigated for alleged misconduct over a 20-year period, and the university ultimately paid settlements to eight women. Given the time span and the number of allegations, they almost surely had to speak with many people who were no longer connected with the university. Even so it was only two months between when they announced the investigation and when he was fired, and they didn't wait for the law firm's final report (no doubt stuffed to justify the big invoices) to be released.

If Michigan can make the relevant employment decision in that extensive case in two months, UC Berkeley can do the same here -- if the powers-that-be want to.

---

Wife isn't in McKeever's corner. Like myself and everybody else on this board, he's expressed disgust at the allegations. That being said, Wife is railing against many posts that amount to a witch hunt type atmosphere where McKeever isn't given due process and the University is expected to conduct a quick bogus investigation with a pre-determined outcome. At least that's how I see it.

---

yea, I'm trying not to draw strong opinions until investigative information is provided to the public, if ever. The allegations are bad.

---

I find it interesting that there weren't more transfers away from the program, considering that in this portal day and time, student athletes are transferring for just about any reason. The girl from our HS in Pa was quoted in the article, and that's fine, but in reality, her times weren't breaking her into the rotation, she was able to get into Penn, and now her times make her an all Ivy league athlete. But, for the most part, the recruited swimmers could compete anywhere-why stay?
And maybe more left than I realize....thoughts?

---

Tons of reasons why someone might stay. Friends on the team, domestic partner attachment, proximity to home, prioritizing academics, thinking this is their best shot at the olympics, wanting to play for a championship team. Same reason people stuck around and put up with Bobby Knight's nonsense.

---

That's fair...but certainly would be harder to bring legal action, IMO. I will say this as a parent: if my kid is that unhappy, to the point of depression etc...they aren't staying, that's for sure.
Having once been friends with a player from an IU championship team, and hearing Bobby Knight stories, I think (from only reading stuff, so who knows) the McKeever stuff goes further....different time and place, but he loved Knight. I guess in time we will see if anyone is willing to stand up for McKeever in that same way.

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I saw Bobby Knight live in action and grew up with the Haskins family. Don and Bobby were best buddies. I assure you NO EFFING WAY is Teri's alleged behavior worse. The constant hyperbolic reaction on this board would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. Once again, I state categorically that I do not condone any of TM's alleged behavior, but posters on this board have lost any shred of objectivity.

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I don't really care about board reaction, vs. what really comes out and affects the University. I added to the conversation, but I certainly have no expectation of objectivity.
Again, my comments about Knight was strictly based on someone who starred for him, and I had a chance to hear more than a few stories from...some of which were alcoholic in nature lol....In general, the context of Knight vs. McKeever is completely different, and in the end will make zero difference relative to what the investigation will find...I mentioned it because it was brought up, and apologize if it seems like I am suggesting some comparison.

I haven't read all of this long thread, but wonder if anyone has shared thoughts on how this situation does or does not compare to the firing of Lou Campanelli in 1993. I guess the one biggest difference is that back then the athletic director was a direct witness to Campanelli's abusive behavior toward his players, so the situation did not involve an allegation that needed to be verified by an investigation. The AD acted quickly and decisively back then.

""There were things that were unwarranted and inappropriate and inexcusable," Bockrath said Friday. "It was so incredibly bad, I said, 'Sheesh, something must be done.' The players were beaten down and in trouble psychologically. Every other word was a four-letter one. Let me tell you, if I hadn't made that wrong turn, I wouldn't have known the fix the team was in."

Four days later, last Monday, Campanelli was a deposed coach.

The action was a further example of what appears to be a new, less-tolerant attitude toward college coaches with severe styles."

https://www.nytimes.com/1993/02/15/sports/college-basketball-words-got-the-best-of-cal-coach.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1993/02/17/when-the-boot-fits/b7f98040-26b0-4602-8af1-cbde9845c40a/

A principal in Marin that was demoted back to teaching recently resigned, and sued for discrimination (he's Latino). The school board said he was abrasive and tough to work with. The district settled out of court for approximately $750,000, approx $580,000 paid by insurance.

The Daily Cal

"...Nicole Oliva, a recruit for the 2020-2021 season, is among one of the swimmers who claims she was emboldened to resign from Cal swimming because of McKeever's culture.

"Oliva's pronounced accolades earned her a spot on Cal's swimming roster. After swimming in the 2017 and 2019 world championships for the Philippines and being named USA Swimming Scholastic All-American, Oliva had the opportunity to swim alongside the nation's best swimmers and under the tutelage of McKeever. Nevertheless, Oliva says she was disheartened and stung by her coach's wrath.

" "I transitioned from being a Cal student-athlete to solely a Cal student as a result of this, and I have witnessed firsthand the stark difference between the two cultures," Oliva said.

"Oliva believes that if the student body becomes aware of the culture and environment McKeever has allegedly developed throughout her time at UC Berkeley, students can make a difference.

" "(They can) add the pressure needed to bring about justice and change," Oliva said...."

https://www.dailycal.org/2022/06/02/womens-swim-head-coach-teri-mckeever-on-administrative-leave/

calumnus said:

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29 years later we are 50 years behind an idiot like Bockrath, who until now held the position of worst Cal AD ever.

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It's downright shocking.
Just incredible!

What was the racial epithet?

Anyone remember that guy Mohamed Muqtar?

I believe he was the Assistant AD for Student Services.
The guy that Cal fired in May of 2018?

Cal Coach Teri McKeever's bullying led to lifelong issues, more former UC Berkeley swimmers allege (mercurynews.com)

Cal Fires Athletic Department Employee After Sexual Assault Investigation - CBS San Francisco (cbsnews.com)

UC-Berkeley fires employee after reports of sexual assaults (mercurynews.com)

McKeever, contacted by telephone Thursday, declined to comment.

Mohamed Muqtar did not respond to requests for comment.

These appear to be new stories of alleged abuse, and directing swimmers to MM for advice, only to be allegedly groomed and sexual advances made ... and Ms. Tran alleges MM giving food and money to they, an NCAA violation?

If the Coach's outbursts and swearing were so common, where are the coaches who witnessed this behavior?

movielover said:

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These appear to be new stories of alleged abuse, and directing swimmers to MM for advice, only to be allegedly groomed and sexual advances made ... and Ms. Tran alleges MM giving food and money to they, an NCAA violation?

If the Coach's outbursts and swearing were so common, where are the coaches who witnessed this behavior?

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They describe McKeever as a "tough" coach. What behavior would make you characterize a coach as "tough"?

movielover said:

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If the Coach's outbursts and swearing were so common, where are the coaches who witnessed this behavior?

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Kristen Cunnane resigned in 2015.
She was Cal's Associate Head Coach.

She, herself was a victim of sexual abuse as a middle school student in Moraga.
She and three "Jane Does" filed a lawsuit against the school district which paid out a total of $18.65 million.

Kristen's Secret - CBS News

Former Cal Women's Assistant Coach Kristen Cunnane Makes Appearance on Dr. Oz Show to Discuss New Book: Undoing Jane Doe - Swimming World News (swimmingworldmagazine.com)

McKeever abuse allegations warrant further discussions (dailycal.org)

- - - Julian Levine, Daily Cal Op-Ed