Yea...for star players typically before college they are THE team and once in college more likely to be PART of the team and learn all that change involves.

concordtom said:

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MilleniaBear said:

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Supposedly Wiseman's contract this year and next WITH tax penalties cost the Dubs $131M. Thats a lot to pay for him to ride the pine.

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Except you must add back in Payton's salary and his luxury tax too boot, so we don't actually save that much, relatively speaking.

W's botched the draft, the development of wise, letting Payton go, and the trade, as Payton is injured.

So much for "light years ahead".

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This is an ... interesting take. Bob Myers has been the best front office executive in the NBA over the last decade and it's not really close. He is arguably the most successful FO exec in all of US pro sports over that period.

There really was never a chance that the Dubs would match Payton's deal with Portland and to be clear, it would have been a mistake. Payton was injured and likely to miss much of this season. As we have seen, he basically hasn't been playable and may not be playable the rest of the year. Hardly a miss there. GPII isn't the only player who that applied to. Some grumbled about Otto Porter Jr, but he's basically missed the whole year too.

Wiseman was a miss and hasn't worked out. Halliburton was never in play. A lot of people would say that they should have taken Lamelo Ball instead of Wiseman but given the talent we have at the guard spot (including Poole), I see why they went in a different direction.

The biggest thing I haven't seen talked much about with Wiseman is that the Dubs did try. They hired a coach just to work with him and for whatever reason Wise was never able to really figure it out. He has raw talent but he's not been able to demonstrate that he's learning how to play basketball. He may never turn into a real player or perhaps he'll look like Javale McGee after 5 or 6 more bad years. This was a good time to move on.

If the ownership lets Bob Myers leave this team it will be a sad day for the franchise.

SRBear said:

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Yea...for star players typically before college they are THE team and once in college more likely to be PART of the team and learn all that change involves.

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Not to mention being a 7 footer vs high school players all a foot shorter than you isn't exactly going to instill good habits. Just being there makes you a star. Sure, you can work on individual drills, but its hard to learn things like proper boxing out and defensive positioning when you can just reach above everyone else for the rebound and swat away any shot near you.

Unit2Sucks said:

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concordtom said:

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MilleniaBear said:

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Supposedly Wiseman's contract this year and next WITH tax penalties cost the Dubs $131M. Thats a lot to pay for him to ride the pine.

---

Except you must add back in Payton's salary and his luxury tax too boot, so we don't actually save that much, relatively speaking.

W's botched the draft, the development of wise, letting Payton go, and the trade, as Payton is injured.

So much for "light years ahead".

---

This is an ... interesting take. Bob Myers has been the best front office executive in the NBA over the last decade and it's not really close. He is arguably the most successful FO exec in all of US pro sports over that period.

There really was never a chance that the Dubs would match Payton's deal with Portland and to be clear, it would have been a mistake. Payton was injured and likely to miss much of this season. As we have seen, he basically hasn't been playable and may not be playable the rest of the year. Hardly a miss there. GPII isn't the only player who that applied to. Some grumbled about Otto Porter Jr, but he's basically missed the whole year too.

Wiseman was a miss and hasn't worked out. Halliburton was never in play. A lot of people would say that they should have taken Lamelo Ball instead of Wiseman but given the talent we have at the guard spot (including Poole), I see why they went in a different direction.

The biggest thing I haven't seen talked much about with Wiseman is that the Dubs did try. They hired a coach just to work with him and for whatever reason Wise was never able to really figure it out. He has raw talent but he's not been able to demonstrate that he's learning how to play basketball. He may never turn into a real player or perhaps he'll look like Javale McGee after 5 or 6 more bad years. This was a good time to move on.

If the ownership lets Bob Myers leave this team it will be a sad day for the franchise.

---

Agree on all points.

I would add that Wiseman could probably score 20 points/night right now on a different team (and he may now). He just couldn't ever figure out the other parts of the game: setting good screens, moving the ball effectively, everything related to defensive coverages/defensive responsibilities, etc.

MrGPAC said:

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concordtom said:

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Halliburton may not have developed with the squad we had, too.
Much of it is situational.
Unless you are Olajuwon.

I really don't understand why the Warriors wouldn't develop a system where their 19 year olds go play 2 years together in Santa Cruz, win the league title, and THEN come up.

No excuse for Wiseman to have not been there all the time when not injured!

---

Wiseman needed playtime and reps more than anything. The Warriors were unable to afford him that opportunity and absolutely should have sent him to the gleague to get minutes.

Best I can tell members of the front office bought hard on Wiseman's potential while severely underestimating how long it takes centers to learn the league combined with just how little playing experience Wiseman has had.

Meanwhile, Kerr was unwilling to give Wiseman the opportunity to learn in live games. I think ultimately the rest of the vets spoke privately with the FO saying this isn't going to work is what caused them to eventually cut ties. There are unconfirmed reports that at least Curry did, but ultimately the whole thing seems to wreak of a disagreement between the FO and the coaching staff, and Wiseman got caught in the crossfire.

As to the question about sending their 19 year olds to go play 2 years together in Santa Cruz...it does beg the question about the purpose of the Gleague, and whether or not the 19 year olds would have been better off learning in college.

Core players:
Stephan Curry - 3 years in college
Draymond Green - 4 years in college
Klay Thompson - 3 years in college

The 19 year olds:
Wiseman - 6 games in college
Kuminga - 0 college (1 year in gleague)
Moody - 1 year in college

I would argue college is a better learning environment than the Gleague, and if you are looking for a "2 time lines" approach, getting the best of the collegiate players may be the smarter move, as they will come into the league far more polished. While Kerr seems to be a great coach at getting the maximum out of players, helping them establish a strong foundation doesn't appear to be his strong suit.

For what its worth, Haliburton had 2 years in college.

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There are plenty of examples of guys who had no college and became huge stars. And I recall Monty Poole reporting that the W's front office thought Wiseman could be an eventual HOF'er.

Kerr at the time said the draft was Bob's job, if I recall correctly.

Bob said yesterday - regarding the current buyout market - that it makes no sense to bring guys in if the coaching staff isn't going to use them, and do any potential roster additions would be a joint effort.

So maybe that's a "tell" on how W's haven't been in good concert recently. What did Kerr, Steph, Dray think about the potential drafting of wiseman? Did they have a vote?

….W's had nothing to do with wiseman pre-draft, and I'm not opposed to going for an all time talent!
What bothers me about the loss of a #2 pick is simply not developing him (g league) OR not being in sync in drafting him.

I'm not at all convinced he's a bust. I just think the W's totally blew it. You can't get zero out of a #2 pick!!

I agree with your various points.
And as to college…. Probably W's should have taken older draft picks given the Steph/Klay/Dray timeline.

DiabloWags said:

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concordtom said:

---

MilleniaBear said:

---

Supposedly Wiseman's contract this year and next WITH tax penalties cost the Dubs $131M. Thats a lot to pay for him to ride the pine.

---

Except you must add back in Payton's salary and his luxury tax too boot, so we don't actually save that much, relatively speaking.

W's botched the draft, the development of wise, letting Payton go, and the trade, as Payton is injured.

So much for "light years ahead".

---

"He's owed $9.6 million this year and $12.2 million next year, meaning that San Antonio, Detroit, Utah or Indiana could trade for him without sending anything back. Such a transaction would save the Warriors about $51 million in salary and tax this year and an estimated $85 million in salary and tax next year; a total of $131 million in savings to dump a guy who rarely plays."

- - - John Hollinger, The Athletic

Hollinger: At NBA trade deadline, follow the money on tax-team deals; Indy road trip notes - The Athletic

---

Yeah. They save that amount on wiseman salary+luxury tax.
But, again, those savings are reduced by Payton's salary+luxury tax.

If they kept the future draft picks, they'd save $131M.
But they traded them for NOW salary+tax.

So, the move wasn't truly about such a big savings. It's about a rift within the org about what the hell they are doing.

We know who wasn't a wiseman fan.
Maybe we will hear who WAS the big wiseman proponent - in 10 years (Bob and his team? Or the ownership voice?)

Maybe returning power and control to the Kerr/Steph/players will unleash a new result on the court down the stretch. Let's hope do, because they've looked entirely mediocre all season!

I'd be very surprised if they make they playoffs without having to qualify via the play-in (top6).
I'd not be surprised to see them out of the playoffs altogether (final8)

My guess?
They advance as a point of pride from the play-in, but lose in first round to the #1 or #2 seed.

concordtom said:

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MrGPAC said:

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concordtom said:

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Halliburton may not have developed with the squad we had, too.
Much of it is situational.
Unless you are Olajuwon.

I really don't understand why the Warriors wouldn't develop a system where their 19 year olds go play 2 years together in Santa Cruz, win the league title, and THEN come up.

No excuse for Wiseman to have not been there all the time when not injured!

---

Wiseman needed playtime and reps more than anything. The Warriors were unable to afford him that opportunity and absolutely should have sent him to the gleague to get minutes.

Best I can tell members of the front office bought hard on Wiseman's potential while severely underestimating how long it takes centers to learn the league combined with just how little playing experience Wiseman has had.

Meanwhile, Kerr was unwilling to give Wiseman the opportunity to learn in live games. I think ultimately the rest of the vets spoke privately with the FO saying this isn't going to work is what caused them to eventually cut ties. There are unconfirmed reports that at least Curry did, but ultimately the whole thing seems to wreak of a disagreement between the FO and the coaching staff, and Wiseman got caught in the crossfire.

As to the question about sending their 19 year olds to go play 2 years together in Santa Cruz...it does beg the question about the purpose of the Gleague, and whether or not the 19 year olds would have been better off learning in college.

Core players:
Stephan Curry - 3 years in college
Draymond Green - 4 years in college
Klay Thompson - 3 years in college

The 19 year olds:
Wiseman - 6 games in college
Kuminga - 0 college (1 year in gleague)
Moody - 1 year in college

I would argue college is a better learning environment than the Gleague, and if you are looking for a "2 time lines" approach, getting the best of the collegiate players may be the smarter move, as they will come into the league far more polished. While Kerr seems to be a great coach at getting the maximum out of players, helping them establish a strong foundation doesn't appear to be his strong suit.

For what its worth, Haliburton had 2 years in college.

---

There are plenty of examples of guys who had no college and became huge stars. And I recall Monty Poole reporting that the W's front office thought Wiseman could be an eventual HOF'er.

Kerr at the time said the draft was Bob's job, if I recall correctly.

Bob said yesterday - regarding the current buyout market - that it makes no sense to bring guys in if the coaching staff isn't going to use them, and do any potential roster additions would be a joint effort.

So maybe that's a "tell" on how W's haven't been in good concert recently. What did Kerr, Steph, Dray think about the potential drafting of wiseman? Did they have a vote?

….W's had nothing to do with wiseman pre-draft, and I'm not opposed to going for an all time talent!
What bothers me about the loss of a #2 pick is simply not developing him (g league) OR not being in sync in drafting him.

I'm not at all convinced he's a bust. I just think the W's totally blew it. You can't get zero out of a #2 pick!!

I agree with your various points.
And as to college…. Probably W's should have taken older draft picks given the Steph/Klay/Dray timeline.

---

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/every-nba-number-2-overall-pick-ever

Looks like the Dubs have plenty of company. Some names, just picking a few:

Thabeet
Williams (2 of them)
Gilchrist
Parker
Beasley

It was a bad draft. Picks 4-10 all are likely performing below what their team hoped for.

It hurts when #2 isn't Durrant or even Aldridge. Same with #1 when the class is bad or you just make the wrong pick.

concordtom said:

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DiabloWags said:

---

concordtom said:

---

MilleniaBear said:

---

Supposedly Wiseman's contract this year and next WITH tax penalties cost the Dubs $131M. Thats a lot to pay for him to ride the pine.

---

Except you must add back in Payton's salary and his luxury tax too boot, so we don't actually save that much, relatively speaking.

W's botched the draft, the development of wise, letting Payton go, and the trade, as Payton is injured.

So much for "light years ahead".

---

"He's owed $9.6 million this year and $12.2 million next year, meaning that San Antonio, Detroit, Utah or Indiana could trade for him without sending anything back. Such a transaction would save the Warriors about $51 million in salary and tax this year and an estimated $85 million in salary and tax next year; a total of $131 million in savings to dump a guy who rarely plays."

- - - John Hollinger, The Athletic

Hollinger: At NBA trade deadline, follow the money on tax-team deals; Indy road trip notes - The Athletic

---

Yeah. They save that amount on wiseman salary+luxury tax.
But, again, those savings are reduced by Payton's salary+luxury tax.

---

The Warriors saved $37 million in luxury tax over 2 years with the trade.

Wiseman played his first game with the Pistons tonight against the Celtics. 11 points, 5 boards coming off the bench behind Duren and Stewart.