If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

Where should the practice facility be located?

CALiforniALUM said:

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Where should the practice facility be located?

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People's Park

meant to post this in basketball forum

diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

I think it is clear to all now that Carol is trying to wind down athletics at Cal. No wind of a push or desire to join the B1G a basketball team that will retain it's coach after consecutive program-worst years. The reputation of Cal is shot. No turning back folks - enjoy this last football season and pray for a miracle year. That is what I have deduced from the past 7-8 months since the LA move.

Econ141 said:

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I think it is clear to all now that Carol is trying to wind down athletics at Cal. No wind of a push or desire to join the B1G a basketball team that will retain it's coach after consecutive program-worst years. The reputation of Cal is shot. No turning back folks - enjoy this last football season and pray for a miracle year. That is what I have deduced from the past 7-8 months since the LA move.

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It does seem odd, particularly when the powers that be have failed to publicly articulate an objective with respect to IA.

The revenue sports may in fact be on the way out, but I think there is still considerable administrative support for the non-revenue sports. Perhaps they will be funded, at least in part, by "direct institutional support."

$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

From a recruiting standpoint, we shouldn't just have 4 walls and 2 baskets.

ColoradoBear said:

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USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

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4 walls and 2 baskets is better than zero. $40 million is actually realistic.

The Warriors practiced in a modest structure on top of the Oakland Convention Center parking garage and won titles. College facilities no longer need to be shiny, grand, and more expensive than pro facilities to get recruits.

HoopDreams said:

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$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

From a recruiting standpoint, we shouldn't just have 4 walls and 2 baskets.

ColoradoBear said:

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USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

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4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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When I heard the original estimate (was it $150 mil?), the conspiratorial side of me wondered if the AD really wanted to get it built or if the hope was to NOT get sufficient donations and use that (lack of alumni support) as an excuse to further cut the investment in revenue sports. But from your description, it sounds like the original scope of this facility has shrunk, which is good, but how about more? Where does staff have offices now - Haas? Since this building would be immediately adjacent to Haas, why can't they keep their old offices? Besides, for many people, their office is their laptop and cell phone, so how many offices are really needed?

ColoradoBear said:

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4 walls and 2 baskets is better than zero. $40 million is actually realistic.

The Warriors practiced in a modest structure on top of the Oakland Convention Center parking garage and won titles. College facilities no longer need to be shiny, grand, and more expensive than pro facilities to get recruits.

HoopDreams said:

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$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

From a recruiting standpoint, we shouldn't just have 4 walls and 2 baskets.

ColoradoBear said:

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USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

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Exactly. In fact, designate a court at RSF (or Hearst or Haas or Clark Kerr…) as the "dedicated practice court" and put EVERYTHING into NIL paid through an alumni controlled fund like California Legends.

ColoradoBear said:

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USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

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And yes, San Francisco is very much part of the Bay Area.

HoopDreams said:

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$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

From a recruiting standpoint, we shouldn't just have 4 walls and 2 baskets.

ColoradoBear said:

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USF is building a one story basketball practice facility for something like $13 million - number was from an old article - but even if construction costs have gone up 2x since 2017, seems like trying to build a 95 million palace is living in fantasy world and not at all cost effective. Way better to build a scaled down version and if donors have money to give, endow up some more non-rev sports or use the $$ on NIL direct to the players.

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Agreed on construction costs etc - I am in the Commercial real estate business and total costs (compared to the exact same project 3 years ago, are up nearly 100%- literally no exaggeration) The approved Practice facility cost is high, due to it needing to be more than a bare bones "2 basketball Courts" side by side". The program desperately needs a new/consolidated weight training area (what exists is HS level at best) and split into 2 non efficient separate areas (one being outside!) and a sufficient nutrition/food area for the athletes (woefully inadequate currently- at the bottom of the conference). The office area need is relatively minor and not a big impact on the cost (support for the strength coaches, film, support staff etc which is not available at a filled Haas Arena/bldg) ADA costs substantially add to the cost, due to the extensive code regulations. Currently there is not a designated basketball court/courts for both teams - RSF has multiple uses ongoing and while times can be allocated, its not exclusive to the teams. Only four D-1 basketball programs (of 356+- nationally) do not have a dedicated practice facility and Cal is one of those four. No question NIL is the most pressing need as the Football and basketball landscape has greatly changed over the past 18 months, and I support the NIL push personally. However there are also wealthy backers that will not financially back NIL funding, but see the long term impact of a very much needed facility - one that will have multiple benefits - including demonstrating to the recruits that Cal is focused/serious about their basketball programs. W/o this facility, its a common and effective negative recruiting pitch against Cal. Personally for those wealthy individuals who are willing to put up their own money for this needed facility, I would be very thankful for their potential donation.

Thanks for providing this info, 4thGen. It sheds a lot of light on this debate.

What's your latest read on the Fox situation?

A point of clarification. This practice facility is still in feasibility phase. There are no architectural drawings or campus approvals yet beyond the conceptual approval of the project. It did take a while to settle on the location adjacent to Haas Pavilion while they were also looking at the Edwards Stadium east bleachers site. Basically, there is no money lined up for this project or it would have advanced into design much more quickly by now.

4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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Thanks for the information that there is actually a space available north of Haas Arena. I guess they will be cutting some trees down?

That said, why wouldn't the administration dedicate some of courts at the RSF for basketball only practice until a proper facility is built? Wouldn't basketball inclined students support that tradeoff? I get that students probably look forward to using the RSF for pick up or intermural leagues, but those are probably the same students who fill the student section in Haas.

Call from Knowlton:

"I am calling to ask for a donation for a new basketball practice facility. Yes, I know that our current coach is a total disaster, but..."

Me:

"Click".

This has been posted several times before the RSF is not under call athletics and the current arrangement of using the gold gym part-time for MBB and WBB was a tough negotiation

I think this is a reasonable compromise as the RSF is already too small for the students (it needs to be expanded and modernized, with more natural light)

I also doubt the students would necessarily understand because they are probably the same student who attend games

I play pick up before every game and almost always ask if anyone is going to the game and have never got one yes

CALiforniALUM said:

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4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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Thanks for the information that there is actually a space available north of Haas Arena. I guess they will be cutting some trees down?

That said, why wouldn't the administration dedicate some of courts at the RSF for basketball only practice until a proper facility is built? Wouldn't basketball inclined students support that tradeoff? I get that students probably look forward to using the RSF for pick up or intermural leagues, but those are probably the same students who fill the student section in Haas.

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4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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This is a no brainer. For 10% of what will eventually be the cost (because we know what happens to costs of public projects at Cal), I can:

1) Get the AD bought out (after raising what he knew about McKeever with his representation)
2) Hire a legit P5 AD who knows how to hire a coach that players want to play for
3) Put the rest of the money in NIL to buy proven players that want to play for a proven coach on a wining program, and who can also get a Cal degree.

I would save some extra cash to jettison the facility plans into outer space.

The donors want something they get naming rights for: have them pay for improving Haas.

I realize the answer of "People's Park" above wasn't a serious suggestion. However:

If Cal weren't such a huge and ridiculous bureaucracy, and if Cal valued the revenue sports more, the student dorms about to be built (once a few legal issues are hurdled) on People's Park could have easily included a (somewhat nicer quality) "players' wing," instead of the currently planned "homeless vagrant wing," and a private gym could have easily been incorporated into the design. This marginal addition sure the heck wouldn't have cost an additional $100M.

Instead, we have the ball-less Cal (literally and figurately) providing homeless services housing to vagrants. Which is a HORRIBLE idea, by the way. Just wait until some 18-year old coed gets raped by one of the vagrants living in the homeless housing 50 yards from her dorm room's front door. It WILL happen.

But that's just my opinion, a dumb guy who certainly isn't qualified like Knowlton is. Yet I have helped to build nine-figure projects on time and under budget.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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I realize the answer of "People's Park" above wasn't a serious suggestion. However:

If Cal weren't such a huge and ridiculous bureaucracy, and if Cal valued the revenue sports more, the student dorms about to be built (once a few legal issues are hurdled) on People's Park could have easily included a (somewhat nicer quality) "players' wing," instead of the currently planned "homeless vagrant wing," and a private gym could have easily been incorporated into the design. This marginal addition sure the heck wouldn't have cost an additional $100M.

Instead, we have the ball-less Cal (literally and figurately) providing homeless services housing to vagrants. Which is a HORRIBLE idea, by the way. Just wait until some 18-year old coed gets raped by one of the vagrants living in the homeless housing 50 yards from her dorm room's front door. It WILL happen.

But that's just my opinion, a dumb guy who certainly isn't qualified like Knowlton is. Yet I have helped to build nine-figure projects on time and under budget.

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Because of the wacky politics in Berkeley, I doubt those dorms planned for the "People's Park" site will ever be successfully completed. Even Cal students were demonstrating against the project, which would be to their own benefit. Crazy.

The whole university is going to hell. I am on the hate cal-train now. *******s having been pissing me off more and more each year. On and off the field.

I wonder why something cannot be worked out with Alumni House to build a practice facility there and give the Alumni Association one of the floors.

Is there even any reason to believe a new practice facility moves the needle for the program? New state of the art facilities didn't make a difference for the football program despite the fervently held view that these 9 figure projects would enhance our recruiting to new heights.

PaulCali said:

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Chapman_is_Gone said:

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I realize the answer of "People's Park" above wasn't a serious suggestion. However:

If Cal weren't such a huge and ridiculous bureaucracy, and if Cal valued the revenue sports more, the student dorms about to be built (once a few legal issues are hurdled) on People's Park could have easily included a (somewhat nicer quality) "players' wing," instead of the currently planned "homeless vagrant wing," and a private gym could have easily been incorporated into the design. This marginal addition sure the heck wouldn't have cost an additional $100M.

Instead, we have the ball-less Cal (literally and figurately) providing homeless services housing to vagrants. Which is a HORRIBLE idea, by the way. Just wait until some 18-year old coed gets raped by one of the vagrants living in the homeless housing 50 yards from her dorm room's front door. It WILL happen.

But that's just my opinion, a dumb guy who certainly isn't qualified like Knowlton is. Yet I have helped to build nine-figure projects on time and under budget.

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Because of the wacky politics in Berkeley, I doubt those dorms planned for the "People's Park" site will ever be successfully completed. Even Cal students were demonstrating against the project, which would be to their own benefit. Crazy.

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Yep, no matter how much harm done by one sided politics in CA, Berkeley, UC etc. to the participants/constituents there is never any recognition that those one sided policies and thought processes are doing damage to the greater good let alone any deviation in thinking or approach.

ok

4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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Not sure how this thread got side-tracked with facts...seems like you missed the opportunity to add (nauseum) to the bash Knowlton posts....because, after all, we definitely don't have any posted thoughts on that!!!
Sarcasm aside, thanks for sharing the insight...

mbBear said:

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4thGenCal said:

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diva1 said:

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If the major stumbling block is a dedicated practice facility, which is what we have been hearing for 1o+ years
Why hasn't this AD or his predecessors started a campaign to study and get it built?

---

This AD started on the project nearly 4 years ago - has gotten numerous required campus committee approvals, the Chancellor sign off and has architectural plans done. The plan is a 2 level (3 stories in height) facility. The first floor/level would house the needed improved/consolidated weight training area (currently the bball weight training for both teams is forced to be split into 2 locations - one outside and is clearly substandard) a larger/ improved nutrition area for the student athletes. The second floor (2 levels in height) would provide for two full length basketball courts (men's and women"s) along with needed office space for staff, performance/strength coach's etc. restrooms, ADA compliance etc. Budgeting/bids are underway and there have been cut backs from an earlier larger scope project including another floor for other sports/gymnastics. The most recent bid estimate is $95M+-. No lead donor has been identified/committed to, though there are 10 targeted donor's who have had discussions thus far. Funds must be raised in full (no outside financing/university pitch in etc). Location is excellent as there is room adjacent to the north area, outside of the Haas Arena ( current parking area). The ongoing key question is will the AD be able to raise the necessary funds to make this needed project a reality.

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Not sure how this thread got side-tracked with facts...seems like you missed the opportunity to add (nauseum) to the bash Knowlton posts....because, after all, we definitely don't have any posted thoughts on that!!!
Sarcasm aside, thanks for sharing the insight...

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Always appreciate 4thGen's insights, but your sarcastic post seems to be disregarding the last several sentences of his post, which are really all that matters. So the university wasted 4 years of time and resources on designs and approvals, but I fail to see how that's a positive when this $100m project will never be funded. At least not unless they change their financing plan and take on debt.

And btw, until Knowlton is gone and/or our revenue programs are out of the gutter, there can never be enough bashing IMO...

Just to add my two cents, the concept of 4 generations of Cal grads is both humbling and impressive as admission to Cal becomes harder and harder to achieve.

HoopDreams said:

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$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

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I believe O'Dowd's facility was completed late last year.



Bishop O'Dowd introduces new $40-million basketball facility with Thanksgiving Showcase - Scorebook Live

DiabloWags said:

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HoopDreams said:

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$13M in the Bay Area doesn't even get you a building shell, equipment, and any amenities. Basically sounds like a HS gym. Plus construction costs increased 30% in the last 18 months alone.

O'dowd is building a basketball facility for $40M, which is at least a better number to start with and extrapolate from there

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I believe O'Dowd's facility was completed late last year.



Bishop O'Dowd introduces new $40-million basketball facility with Thanksgiving Showcase - Scorebook Live

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A timelapse of the O'Dowd Cummins Center construction shows a few exterior shots that include a 3-ish story office tower:



https://sfyimby.com/2020/12/oakland-planning-commission-approves-construction-at-bishop-odowd-high-school.html

https://oaklandvoices.us/2022/11/23/bishop-odowd-to-unveil-new-facility-with-high-school-hoops-showcase/

Quote:

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In addition to the gym, the Cummins Center also features an athletic performance lab, classroom space, a music studio, and a performing arts theater.

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To me, this all suggests a $40 million facility is adequate for Cal and can actually be acomplished - $100 million is crazy. I mean $40 million for that is crazy too, but yeah CA prices and supply and labor issues.

The gym at Odowd was also really shoehorned in there on their property. A glance at google each shows the site north of Haas to be about the same size.

I'd prefer we find and spend 10% of this money on NIL and find a way to give the hoops teams dedicated access to RSF / Harmon.

CALiforniALUM said:

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Where should the practice facility be located?

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Jim Knowlton's house