At this point, its a lesson in mismanagement and poor advice. Brett McMurphy had a tweet about mismanagement. Take it with a grain of salt but, its probably true:

Quote:

---

On Pac-12's demise from
@BradyMcCollough
: George Kliavkoff tried blocking UCLA's move to B1G w/Cal regents. Then in October 2022, ESPN offered Pac-12 $30M/school, but a Pac-12 president "worked w/a professor on his campus" who estimated the school's market value was $50M/school. So Pac-12, based on this professor's advice, asked for $50M/school. ESPN said no

---

I suppose this is what we're dealing with. I'm kinda over it already. My sports interest for the past 15 years is world football - Premier League, Champions League. The only thing I want is for us to retain the Axe and, if everything falls apart and we go our separate ways - we keep it.

It's the other way around -- the $30 million or 50 discussion with ESPN was before the regents' meetings about UCLA moving to the Big Ten.

Regardless, a good commissioner would be able to give good advice to school presidents about negotiation strategy and persuade them to follow that good advice. Instead, we had an empty suit commissioner who unthinkingly passed along the $50 million ask from Oregon or Washington.

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

berserkeley said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

---

Well the middle ground of course is offering joint doctoral degrees as UCSD does with SDSU.

As for allowing the CSU's to grant doctoral degrees in applied sciences that could be a fight for another day or a reason to split the state into 3rds.

Sactowndog said:

---

berserkeley said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

---

Well the middle ground of course is offering joint doctoral degrees as UCSD does with SDSU.

As for allowing the CSU's to grant doctoral degrees in applied sciences that could be a fight for another day or a reason to split the state into 3rds.

---

So Fresno Stste should team up with UC Merced.

calumnus said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

berserkeley said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

---

Well the middle ground of course is offering joint doctoral degrees as UCSD does with SDSU.

As for allowing the CSU's to grant doctoral degrees in applied sciences that could be a fight for another day or a reason to split the state into 3rds.

---

So Fresno Stste should team up with UC Merced.

---

UC Merced is busy trying to establish themselves as they should.

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

berserkeley said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

---

Well the middle ground of course is offering joint doctoral degrees as UCSD does with SDSU.

As for allowing the CSU's to grant doctoral degrees in applied sciences that could be a fight for another day or a reason to split the state into 3rds.

---

So Fresno Stste should team up with UC Merced.

---

UC Merced is busy trying to establish themselves as they should.

---

As is Fresno State.

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

berserkeley said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

calumnus said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

philly1121 said:

---

LunchTime said:

---

58ballboy said:

---

Let me preface by saying that. I am saddened and angry that this has happened. It shouldn't have happened and it could have been avoided. But, it has happened, so we move forward. Let me also provide some context. My Dad played in the 40's and I began attending in 1955. I never missed a home football or basketball game (and most baseball games as well) for the next 20 years.
Cal regularly sold out their games back then. Even against conference members Idaho and Montana. Why? Because going to the game was fun. Sure, Cal would win more than they would lose back then, but the event was greater than the outcome. As we transitioned into the mediocre years, the key was not the losses, but the changing interests of students and fans.From the late 60's on, playing Alabama would not have filled the stadium. However, take a look around the country and you'll see that fans are back.
College sports are supposed to be fun for the athletes and the fans. Granted, NIL and other changes have had an effect. But take a look at some of the other college teams that I also follow. Fresno State draws 35,000 fans to most games. Their tailgate area is famous. UC Davis, and Sac State that I also follow are totally enjoyable events. The MWC teams that are so easily dismissed are generally competitive teams that send many players to the pros. Just look at Cal's record against MWC teams recently.
What would happen if the remaining 4 teams merged with the Mountain West? There would probably be a short term drop in financial support and attendance. But, it would be short term and it might not happen at all. Cal would immediately become competitive and would likely go to bowl games and the NCAA final 64. Over time, the other ""Pac-15" teams would become even stronger, quite possible creating a new power conference. Look at what happened to the Florida schools that recently stepped up their programs.
Television has turned college sports into a game of ratings. While that's a fact today, I predict that it will not last. The joy and camaraderie of college sports is still there. Just give it a chance.
Hopefully, financial supporters will not be short sighted and will rally around the swimming, water polo, rugby, tennis, golf, track, softball, and soccer programs the way they did for baseball. Likewise, the debt around the stadium could easily by resolved if the state would step up.
I suggest that we dispense with the gloom and doom, and look instead to new opportunities.

---

Cal didn't sell out games because they were fun. They sold out because games were easier to get to before Berkeley intentionally made access difficult, and there wasn't anything else to do. Even if you enjoy sports, there are 6 other teams in close proximity to split the group now, vs 2 previously. The Giants didn't come til '58, the As 68, the NFL wasn't significant until the 70s. The sharks in the '90s. Of course Cal was a bigger draw in the 50s and 60s.

The MWC would cause attendance to plummet. I wouldn't watch SJSU Fresno etc for free. It's why SJSU was on the verge of being pushed out of D1"A" and had to attract fans with a marching band.

No one in the world wants to watch that. Fresno and boise draws fans... For tiny texas high school sized stadiums. Matter of fact, the only stadium with 60k+ is an NFL stadium. At MWC standards, a great attendance would leave our stadium at about 30% full. Yikes.

---

2022 Avg Attendance

Cal: 38,596 (63,000 is capacity)
Fresno State: 39,067 (40,727 is capacity)

5-year average

Cal - 41,172
Fresno - 30,513
Diff: 10,659

Facts.

---

You really doing a 5 year average that includes
1) Covid years
2) Fresno's worst coach in its entire history in DeRuyter

The fact is joining the MWC would give you a short term boost in attendance. Once you sank to the bottom of the MWC standings with UNLV maybe not. NIL would depend if your alumni could stand the annual beatings at the hands of Fresno or would they pay up to prevent the humiliation. At least your TV ratings might rise as 1/2 the state and most of the Central Valley would tune in to watch Fresno thrash you.

As pointed out you already have a losing record against Fresno. Expect that to continue. We have the only coach that actually won here since the 50's. Your admin knows that fact which is why they want to send your athletes across the country.

---

The stats I gave show that Fresno, despite DeRuyter and despite Covid - has a better overall attendance than Cal. Smaller stadium notwithstanding. I think Fresno would add a regional rivalry that would absolutely matter to the Valley. Not so much Cal.

I brought those stats up to show that, we are really not all that we think we are. That whatever value we think we have is way overhyped because of our academic standing. And as we read in other threads, particularly CalStrong's postings that working or collab'ing in some way with MWC schools is not gonna happen - then I think we are probably going independent or dropping football.

---

Fresno is the regional team for a small metro agricultural area with no professional sports. Iowa on a smaller scale. They make good coaching hires spending less and have a good record against lesser competition.

Cal has an opportunity to be the regional team in a large urban metropolitan area (the North and East Bay) that now has no professional sports. We have not generally hired good coaches despite spending more and until now we play tougher competition.

We are at an inflection point. This realignment is critical. Cal is a sleeping giant, but will we awake or be smothered with a pillow while we sleep?

---

Haha. I know your are trying to be positive….

Just FYI, Iowa has a population of 3.2M which is split between Iowa and Iowa State. The San Joaquin Valley has a population of 4.2M people and contains only Fresno State within it.

Since I'm guessing most here don't know….

the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana.

Unfortunately, Fresno did not have the Academics to win Presidential support over 4 PAC-12 AAU schools. I also think Fresno might struggle to gain brand strength past maybe Elk Grove. I do think Cal and Fresno combined could reasonably penetrate the Sac Metro area. But sadly you all would prefer to offer yourselves up for free to the ACC with Stanford.

How is that going for you all?

---

Cal and Stanford are going to try and stick together. They're cross town rivals dating back over a century in both academics and athletics. Two of the most elite universities on the planet at producing Nobel prizes and Olympic medalists. We lead a little on the Nobel front and they lead a little on the Olympic front. That's worth preserving.

Stanford will never accept the Big XII or MWC if there's a "better" option out there and maybe not even if there are no better options. And the ACC is better than the Big XII. Much better both academically and athletically.

But if the B1G and the ACC say no, then Cal would be foolish to not partner with anyone in trying for the Big XII. Including Fresno State. But the Regents aren't going to push for granting doctral programs tlay CSUs (except the Doctor of Public Health programs recently permitted by Newsom) over a football deal. Athletics will never drive academic decisions at UC. Nor should it.

---

Well the middle ground of course is offering joint doctoral degrees as UCSD does with SDSU.

As for allowing the CSU's to grant doctoral degrees in applied sciences that could be a fight for another day or a reason to split the state into 3rds.

---

So Fresno Stste should team up with UC Merced.

---

UC Merced is busy trying to establish themselves as they should.

---

You gave the example of San Diego State working with UC San Diego to offer joint degrees.

UC Merced is located in the San Joaquin Valley. They offer PhDs. Develop a joint program.

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

movielover said:

---

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

Sactowndog said:

---

movielover said:

---

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

Golden One said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

movielover said:

---

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

But you insist on doubling or tripling down on two Ivy League level elite Universities in a 6M market dominated by Championship level Pro teams. Seems like a very effective strategy…. Working well.

Sactowndog said:

---

Golden One said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

movielover said:

---

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

oski003 said:

---

Sactowndog said:

---

Golden One said:

---

Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

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Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

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The Sacramento DMA extends to south to Modesto. It also extends west to Fairfield. The point was Fresno and Cal combined could likely capture a lot of it. Both directionally from the west and the south and social economically…. But again your current strategy is doing well…… so carry on.

Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

---

The Sacramento DMA extends to south to Modesto. It also extends west to Fairfield. The point was Fresno and Cal combined could likely capture a lot of it. Both directionally from the west and the south and social economically…. But again your current strategy is doing well…… so carry on.

---

What is my current strategy?

oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

---

The Sacramento DMA extends to south to Modesto. It also extends west to Fairfield. The point was Fresno and Cal combined could likely capture a lot of it. Both directionally from the west and the south and social economically…. But again your current strategy is doing well…… so carry on.

---

What is my current strategy?

---

You as in Cal admin….

You keep saying that the only reason the Big XII hasn't added Fresno State is because Fresno State doesn't have enough docotral programs thanks to the UCs.

However ....

Fresno State is classified as an "R2 Doctoral University - High Research Activity." The Big XII added TCU and BYU. Both schools share the same classification. So, apparently, Fresno State's research activity is not the reason they have not received a Big XII invite.

berserkeley said:

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You keep saying that the only reason the Big XII hasn't added Fresno State is because Fresno State doesn't have enough docotral programs thanks to the UCs.

However ....

Fresno State is classified as an "R2 Doctoral University - High Research Activity." The Big XII added TCU and BYU. Both schools share the same classification. So, apparently, Fresno State's research activity is not the reason they have not received a Big XII invite.

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Not to slam the University I follow but TCU, BYU and Wake Forest are all pretty high achieving private Universities. No public university that is not Tier 1 exists in the entire P4. If just the networks were decision makers it wouldn't matter, but as University Presidents are the final decision makers I suspect it's a show stopper.

Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

But you insist on doubling or tripling down on two Ivy League level elite Universities in a 6M market dominated by Championship level Pro teams. Seems like a very effective strategy…. Working well.

---

I didn't insist on anything. Have no idea what you're talking about.

Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

But you insist on doubling or tripling down on two Ivy League level elite Universities in a 6M market dominated by Championship level Pro teams. Seems like a very effective strategy…. Working well.

---

I didn't insist on anything. Have no idea what you're talking about.

---

I think you are all are 1000% focused on a destination with Stanford and vice versa. But I don't think you will ever sell the media partners. Bay Area market is 6.7M, dominated by very good Pro teams.

If you extended into the Central Valley or Sac maybe both would work. But in a world of cable the media partners have more data then either of you. They know full well you don't extend at all. As big of an issue Fresno has with the Big 12 Presidents, CalFurd has an equally big issue with the BIG media partners.

The numbers just do not work.

I just saw a mean fight at a 49er game on social media (niner fan vs niner fan). There are passionate fans in the Bay Area. Need to win over the tshirt/jersey wearing fans. The guys fighting were close to the field so they be spending lots of money too.

Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

But you insist on doubling or tripling down on two Ivy League level elite Universities in a 6M market dominated by Championship level Pro teams. Seems like a very effective strategy…. Working well.

---

I didn't insist on anything. Have no idea what you're talking about.

---

I think you are all are 1000% focused on a destination with Stanford and vice versa. But I don't think you will ever sell the media partners. Bay Area market is 6.7M, dominated by very good Pro teams.

If you extended into the Central Valley or Sac maybe both would work. But in a world of cable the media partners have more data then either of you. They know full well you don't extend at all. As big of an issue Fresno has with the Big 12 Presidents, CalFurd has an equally big issue with the BIG media partners.

The numbers just do not work.

---

Do you spend the rest of your day on the Big 12 boards? Isn't that who you should be asking to want a piece of your market? Have you targeted another school message board you can partner with to join the Big 12? Have you considered SDSU?

No mention of Sac State or Davis. The Ags have the academic creds and a stadium built for expansion, but neither team has a stronghold in Sacramento.

You're just looking at population numbers. Likely a big percentage aren't citizens, have lower incomes, and don't follow traditional American sports. More likely soccer fans.

oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

But you insist on doubling or tripling down on two Ivy League level elite Universities in a 6M market dominated by Championship level Pro teams. Seems like a very effective strategy…. Working well.

---

I didn't insist on anything. Have no idea what you're talking about.

---

I think you are all are 1000% focused on a destination with Stanford and vice versa. But I don't think you will ever sell the media partners. Bay Area market is 6.7M, dominated by very good Pro teams.

If you extended into the Central Valley or Sac maybe both would work. But in a world of cable the media partners have more data then either of you. They know full well you don't extend at all. As big of an issue Fresno has with the Big 12 Presidents, CalFurd has an equally big issue with the BIG media partners.

The numbers just do not work.

---

Do you spend the rest of your day on the Big 12 boards? Isn't that who you should be asking to want a piece of your market? Have you targeted another school message board you can partner with to join the Big 12? Have you considered SDSU?

---

Right now what happens with Cal determines the next step for WSU, OSU, SDSU and Fresno. So keeping updated by reading this board is of value. If/when you go ACC you can be sure I will have no value reading or posting here.

movielover said:

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No mention of Sac State or Davis. The Ags have the academic creds and a stadium built for expansion, but neither team has a stronghold in Sacramento.

You're just looking at population numbers. Likely a big percentage aren't citizens, have lower incomes, and don't follow traditional American sports. More likely soccer fans.

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You mean Spanish speaking

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nicolekraft/2023/08/22/fresno-state-making-history-with-spanish-language-football-broadcast/amp/

Lots of Fresno gangs with the moniker Bulldog and fly red.

Their AD is Terry Tumey, who had a short stint at Davis. The Chancellor didn't take well to him job hunting after such a short time on the job, and locals weren't thrilled by his family staying in Piedmont. He was shown the door.

Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

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Sactowndog said:

---

movielover said:

---

You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

---

The Sacramento DMA extends to south to Modesto. It also extends west to Fairfield. The point was Fresno and Cal combined could likely capture a lot of it. Both directionally from the west and the south and social economically…. But again your current strategy is doing well…… so carry on.

---

What is my current strategy?

---

You as in Cal admin….

---

Again, it is not "Cal admin" it the state's longstanding Master Plan For Higher Education that sets out the different roles of the UCs and CSUs.

Maybe you needed to lobby the state to convert CSU Fresno to UC Fresno instead of building UC Merced.

But that does not stop you from joining the B-12. As someone pointed out BYU is in the B-12. Fresno State is already a member of the B-12 for Rodeo. Offer to join at partial share.

calumnus said:

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Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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oski003 said:

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Sactowndog said:

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Golden One said:

---

Sactowndog said:

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movielover said:

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You wrote: "the San Joaquin Valley does not include the Sacramento Metro area which is another 2.4M people and again has no FBS or Pro football. It's this 6.6M people with no Pro or FBS competition that caused Endeavor to recommend to Yormark the Big-12 look hard at Fresno State. That population base is basically Indiana."

How so?

---

Indiana as a state has 6.8M people in it with a capital that sits at cross roads like Sacramento. If you took the valley from Kern County up to say Yolo County it is very similar to Indiana.

The difference being Indiana has 1 Pro team and 2 P4 teams. The Central Valley has zero and zero.

---

I think you included Sacramento in the 6.6 million "metro area". Sacramento has a professional basketball team.

---

I did as I was counting football and I was excluding Basketball. If we want to check on Basketball and you consider the Big East a pseudo P4 basketball conference…. You have….

Valley. 1 Pro Basketball. 0 P4
Indiana 1 Pro Basketball 3 P5. Indiana, Purdue, Butler.

Either way the valley as a large population with limited competition.

---

Sacramento is only 80 miles from Berkeley. Fresno is 170 miles away. We don't need to try to make Fresno St. a real university just so Sacramento folks have a power conference football team to root for.

---

The Sacramento DMA extends to south to Modesto. It also extends west to Fairfield. The point was Fresno and Cal combined could likely capture a lot of it. Both directionally from the west and the south and social economically…. But again your current strategy is doing well…… so carry on.

---

What is my current strategy?

---

You as in Cal admin….

---

Again, it is not "Cal admin" it the state's longstanding Master Plan For Higher Education that sets out the different roles of the UCs and CSUs.

Maybe you needed to lobby the state to convert CSU Fresno to UC Fresno instead of building UC Merced.

But that does not stop you from joining the B-12. As someone pointed out BYU is in the B-12. Fresno State is already a member of the B-12 for Rodeo. Offer to join at partial share.

---

Fresno is a part of the Big 12 for equestrian not rodeo. They were also a member of the Big 12 for wrestling.

I understand Fresno's shortcoming. I'm not sure you understand why Cal is begging to get into the ACC for 10M a year.

Everyone on this board understands why Cal is begging to get into the ACC. We've been b****ing about those reasons for decades.

berserkeley said:

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Everyone on this board understands why Cal is begging to get into the ACC. We've been b****ing about those reasons for decades.

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Exactly. The guy thinks he is educating us about a problem we have understood for 43 years (in my case). The "Cal Admin" he complains about is the Cal Admin we complain about. We as alums and fans have no control over the Cal Administration and it's mismanagement of our athletics programs, we are victims of it, it has nearly killed our program, but he wants to blame us for it. Whatever.

However, I do think this is a great opportunity to wrest control of the revenue sports over to a private alumni run not-for profit (profits donated to Cal AD). Run it like a professional sports startup in the East Bay. Fire Learfield. Bring in Cal alumni with professional sports management and marketing experience. Donations will be treated as voting shares. Borrow against future revenues if need be. Fund the scholarships. Players can eventually be employees. Brand as "California." Give away tickets to local high schools and other local colleges. Really promote the matchups with ACC teams, especially in basketball. Make Haas a tough ticket. Bring in stars like Marshawn to promote.

The AD will need to cut sports. Maybe Cal baseball can be in a JV with the Giants? Spring ball at Oracle?

John Canzano says OSU and WSU listen to offers but want to keep Pac-whatever together.

"A Mountain West Conference travel party met with officials at Washington State on Thursday and unveiled its sales pitch. Oregon State will get the same in-person treatment next week in Corvallis, I'm told.

"MWC Commissioner Gloria Nevarez flew to Pullman for Thursday's meeting. She was accompanied by University of New Mexico president Garnett Stokes...."