Yeah Tosh has proven to be a great recruiter and you have to acknowledge that. Oregon and Bama hired him for that reason alone. So obviously they know being a blueblood isn't enough, you need people on your staff that excel at recruiting even if you are a popular big boy school. He excelled at Washington and Cal in crooting too. If my memory is right, didn't he croot at USC too or is that just Wilcox?
If you want a sense of how Tosh Lupoi has done as the Oregon DC
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Last: 4 mo ago by Bearly Clad
01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
ducky23 said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
Thanks for the quote, do you have a citation?
Keep in mind Wilcox and Clancy Pendergast also served as DCs at Cal during Cam's time at Cal. That said, it's possible that Cam developed due to Tosh's coaching. If that's the case, are there any testimonials from other players Tosh coached fir developing them?
MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
My concern is if Tosh and his cadre can't coach up players, the latter won't stick around (see, Nando). It doesn't matter if Tosh can pull in impressionable 18 year olds; if he can't develop their skills, they'll portal out. At the end of the day, the best recruits want to play in the League. If they're not being coached up and developed into League-level players, they'll go somewhere else where they will get that.
I'm not convinced Tosh can develop players for the League, especially at the most important position (QB). Worse, there's no reason to believe Tosh has the skills to build up a program and turn it into a team that competes for conference championships. That's what Cal needs in the immediate future.
75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
Agree.
The whole thing is a crap shoot now. The past was "college football". The future isn't.
BearGreg said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
After 20 years, across four schools, when the best programs keep hiring you, isn't the answer obvious?
That line of logic is akin to "I have worked the register at more than 30 Walmart stores over 20 years, isn't it obvious that I should be the next CEO?"
Choosing a head coach has to involve more than just a track record working under other head coaches. What is the argument that a person who has historically excelled at being a recruiter is even going to be able to use those skills when they are head coach. The stories about Tosh being recruiter - playing video games, social media, keeping in touch on a weekly basis with recruits - seems much more the role of the position coaches and recruiting staff, not the head coach.
01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
My concern is if Tosh and his cadre can't coach up players, the latter won't stick around (see, Nando). It doesn't matter if Tosh can pull in impressionable 18 year olds; if he can't develop their skills, they'll portal out. At the end of the day, the best recruits want to play in the League. If they're not being coached up and developed into League-level players, they'll go somewhere else where they will get that.
I'm not convinced Tosh can develop players for the League, especially at the most important position (QB). Worse, there's no reason to believe Tosh has the skills to build up a program and turn it into a team that competes for conference championships. That's what Cal needs in the immediate future.
I mean that's a concern no matter who you hire as Head Coach. That a guy can put together a functional coaching staff in order for his OC/DC to shine and get the most out of the players you bring in. I think with Ron being a great source of oversight, he will be able to be an effective sounding board for whoever you hire.
01Bear said:ducky23 said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
Thanks for the quote, do you have a citation?
Keep in mind Wilcox and Clancy Pendergast also served as DCs at Cal during Cam's time at Cal. That said, it's possible that Cam developed due to Tosh's coaching. If that's the case, are there any testimonials from other players Tosh coached for developing them?
Pendergast was a defensive backs coach first and then became a DC. He was a sold coach, but a mediocre recruiter. Tyson Alu Alu, Cam Jordan were absolutely coaxhed up by Tosh amongst many other players at Alabama and Oregon like the NYG's DE Thibideaux who was a top 10 pick.
Tosh is absolutely the right guy for the job to enhance the talent to a depleted roster that lacks highly skilled P4 players. I'm sure if Cal and the Regents give him what he needs to be successful Tosh will Flourish along with his staff.
If Oregon does not make their Co-DC Hampton their DC, I would expect Tosh to hire him as our DC./Safeties Coach. Hampton is an outstanding recruiter who has DC experience. If Tosh was paying attention to Saban he will have some outstanding recruiters on staff.
Go Bears and get this deal done with Tosh.
MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
My concern is if Tosh and his cadre can't coach up players, the latter won't stick around (see, Nando). It doesn't matter if Tosh can pull in impressionable 18 year olds; if he can't develop their skills, they'll portal out. At the end of the day, the best recruits want to play in the League. If they're not being coached up and developed into League-level players, they'll go somewhere else where they will get that.
I'm not convinced Tosh can develop players for the League, especially at the most important position (QB). Worse, there's no reason to believe Tosh has the skills to build up a program and turn it into a team that competes for conference championships. That's what Cal needs in the immediate future.
I mean that's a concern no matter who you hire as Head Coach. That a guy can put together a functional coaching staff in order for his OC/DC to shine and get the most out of the players you bring in. I think with Ron being a great source of oversight, he will be able to be an effective sounding board for whoever you hire.
I'm unconvinced that Ron would be able to succeed in today's college football world. This is no knock against him. Rather, it's an acknowledgment that the game is different than it was even five years ago; and it's only going to change more. I'm also not saying that Ro can't adapt and learn to succeed in the new college football environment, but I'd rater have a coach who has already proven his ability to do just that. It's why I'd prefer someone like Jason Eck.
01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
My concern is if Tosh and his cadre can't coach up players, the latter won't stick around (see, Nando). It doesn't matter if Tosh can pull in impressionable 18 year olds; if he can't develop their skills, they'll portal out. At the end of the day, the best recruits want to play in the League. If they're not being coached up and developed into League-level players, they'll go somewhere else where they will get that.
I'm not convinced Tosh can develop players for the League, especially at the most important position (QB). Worse, there's no reason to believe Tosh has the skills to build up a program and turn it into a team that competes for conference championships. That's what Cal needs in the immediate future.
I mean that's a concern no matter who you hire as Head Coach. That a guy can put together a functional coaching staff in order for his OC/DC to shine and get the most out of the players you bring in. I think with Ron being a great source of oversight, he will be able to be an effective sounding board for whoever you hire.
I'm unconvinced that Ron would be able to succeed in today's college football world. This is no knock against him. Rather, it's an acknowledgment that the game is different than it was even five years ago; and it's only going to change more. I'm also not saying that Ro can't adapt and learn to succeed in the new college football environment, but I'd rater have a coach who has already proven his ability to do just that. It's why I'd prefer someone like Jason Eck.
I mean that's fine, but Ron is already hired for a position of GM. I think that role fits him and Cal perfectly.
01Bear said:ducky23 said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
Thanks for the quote, do you have a citation?
Keep in mind Wilcox and Clancy Pendergast also served as DCs at Cal during Cam's time at Cal. That said, it's possible that Cam developed due to Tosh's coaching. If that's the case, are there any testimonials from other players Tosh coached for developing them?
You can find the complete cam Jordan interview here
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2011/4/19/2119237/interview-with-california-golden-bear-cameron-jordan
Trevor guyton also recently did an interview where he could not stop raving about tosh
I'd also recommend watching this tosh interview in which he still speaks extremely fondly of Cal
Agreed.MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:MinotStateBeav said:01Bear said:75bear said:
The way I look at it - there are risks and downsides to every hire. Cal needs short term upside given realignment on the front burner. So let's pick someone with a high ceiling in the short term - enter Tosh Lupoi. If he fails (and of course he might), we'll move on and find someone else and we can reopen the conversation again and find a new Eck type of coach. In my mind, Lupoi gives us the greatest upside in the next year, and this tips the scale for me.
Whoever is chosen, we need to rally around them and give them the best chance to succeed. At least all of us can agree on this.
On what do you base your assessment that Tosh has the highest upside? If anything, Tosh's resume suggests he has a Wilcoxian upside. Except, Wilcox actually was a DC under an offensive minded HC. There's nothing in Tosh's resume to suggest he has a high upside except his ability to recruit by playing XBox ten years ago. Since then, he's been (at best) a second banana and never the undisputed defensive mind for any of the teams where he's coached.
As for giving Tosh a tryout, Cal can't afford to whiff on its next HC hire. Given how much Knowlton and Wilcox killed the Cal football program, this is make or break time for Cal. If Cal flounders, which is more likely given the schedule is about to become much more difficult, it will be relegated out of the P2 come the next realignment. Cal cannot afford to hire someone who doesn't know how to build up and turn around a program.
For anyone who is looking at this clearly (and devoid of Blue tinted glasses), Tosh ain't it.
Wilcox was a known quality in regards to his ability to coach up his position group as well as being a DC. I don't believe Tosh is that, he's a known quality in regards to recruiting something I think we can agree that Wilcox mightily struggled with. The question is, can he hire and manage quality OC and DC's and build a good working staff. I think he's been around college football enough to believe that he can, but also with Ron's help he could make it work. Nothing is a certainty and I think Tosh is a risk, but at worst, he should be able to raise the talent level of the team even if it doesn't work out. I think that's a risk worth taking, but hey..it's not my money.
My concern is if Tosh and his cadre can't coach up players, the latter won't stick around (see, Nando). It doesn't matter if Tosh can pull in impressionable 18 year olds; if he can't develop their skills, they'll portal out. At the end of the day, the best recruits want to play in the League. If they're not being coached up and developed into League-level players, they'll go somewhere else where they will get that.
I'm not convinced Tosh can develop players for the League, especially at the most important position (QB). Worse, there's no reason to believe Tosh has the skills to build up a program and turn it into a team that competes for conference championships. That's what Cal needs in the immediate future.
I mean that's a concern no matter who you hire as Head Coach. That a guy can put together a functional coaching staff in order for his OC/DC to shine and get the most out of the players you bring in. I think with Ron being a great source of oversight, he will be able to be an effective sounding board for whoever you hire.
I'm unconvinced that Ron would be able to succeed in today's college football world. This is no knock against him. Rather, it's an acknowledgment that the game is different than it was even five years ago; and it's only going to change more. I'm also not saying that Ro can't adapt and learn to succeed in the new college football environment, but I'd rater have a coach who has already proven his ability to do just that. It's why I'd prefer someone like Jason Eck.
I mean that's fine, but Ron is already hired for a position of GM. I think that role fits him and Cal perfectly.
ducky23 said:01Bear said:ducky23 said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
Thanks for the quote, do you have a citation?
Keep in mind Wilcox and Clancy Pendergast also served as DCs at Cal during Cam's time at Cal. That said, it's possible that Cam developed due to Tosh's coaching. If that's the case, are there any testimonials from other players Tosh coached for developing them?
You can find the complete cam Jordan interview here
https://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2011/4/19/2119237/interview-with-california-golden-bear-cameron-jordan
Trevor guyton also recently did an interview where he could not stop raving about tosh
I'd also recommend watching this tosh interview in which he still speaks extremely fondly of Cal
Thanks!
In the Californiagoldenblogs article, the next question/answer os also informative:
8. Please tell us one teammate who has impressed you the most and what you have learned from him.
Tyson Alualu. I emulated my game after him when I came in. After being around him for three years it really makes hard work become a part of life, over something you have to learn.
That said, I like the next question/answer a little better:
9. Tosh Lupoi took over the defensive line coaching job from a much more experienced coach and is generally viewed as one of the most successful assistant coaches out there. What did Tosh do to achieve this success, despite his inexperience?
Coach Lupoi knows everyone learns differently and he is creative and wise enough to adapt anything he wants to teach us, individually catering to the beat way a player learns.
If the foregoing were accurate and if Tosh is still able to customize lessons for players, that's definitely encouraging. As the HC, he'll need to find guys who can do the same and develop his players on both sides of the ball.
I think Phil Knight deserves the credit.
There's no such thing as a slam dunk hire of course.
But trying to say Tosh is anything less than an elite recruiter, or that he hasnt done much for the last 10 years is wild.
No idea about his ability to run an entire program or bring in quality coordinators and assistants. But he will immediately and significantly upgrade our recruiting right away.
But trying to say Tosh is anything less than an elite recruiter, or that he hasnt done much for the last 10 years is wild.
No idea about his ability to run an entire program or bring in quality coordinators and assistants. But he will immediately and significantly upgrade our recruiting right away.
Thanks. It's a long interview, at point did tosh speak about cal? Thanks
WildBear said:
Thanks. It's a long interview, at point did tosh speak about cal? Thanks
Worth listening to the whole thing, IMO. It's a really good look into his coaching philosophy, influences, etc
Can someone please compare Dan Lanning's resume before being hired as Oregon's HC with Tosh's today. At a glance, Tosh's credentials look better than Lannings before getting his first HC job. Isn't Smart: Lanning equivalent to Lanning: Lupoi?
I see Tosh as being much less of a gamble than most of the candidates that have been bandied about. Tosh has spent much of his career in big-time successfull situations, with very solid leadership.
I see Tosh as being much less of a gamble than most of the candidates that have been bandied about. Tosh has spent much of his career in big-time successfull situations, with very solid leadership.
aws56 said:calumnus said:01Bear said:upsetof86 said:
There's a lot of insider lobbying for Tosh is what this post tells me. Is it not reasonable to consider Lanning is largely responsible for how well the D performed as a counterpoint?
BearGreg seems to be one of the Tosh fans. Either that or Todh to Cal is a fait accompli and BearGreg is just providing cover for Ron Rivera's decision. I have yo say, I'm disappointed that BearGreg won't acknowledge that Oregon's defensive success may be attributable more to Lanning than to Tosh.
Agree, if Tosh is the guy I'd like to know so we can be having a conversation of what it might take for him to be successful, who he might get as OC, etc instead of why other candidates would be better.
Hey Ron, calumnus is kinda getting impatient for an update….so if you wouldn't mind speeding up your process that would be great. It's important that they have ample time to move on to the important work of getting you some feedback on how to make the new coach, whomever that is, successful.
Thanks for your consideration.
well, first he wants to see how things go tonight.
01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
01Bear said:remb8888 said:
tl; still skimmed
Bro - who else do you suggest? He's the best fit there is currently. He knows and understands Cal. Recruits well, etc.
I'd want Cal to pursue someone with a history of success at lower levels, someone like Jason Eck.
Any discussion of Eck needs to start with this: Eck is a former Wisconsin player who is likely taking their head coaching job the minute it's offered to him, and Wisconsin's current coach will be on an even hotter seat next season than Wilcox was this season.
Rushinbear said:aws56 said:calumnus said:01Bear said:upsetof86 said:
There's a lot of insider lobbying for Tosh is what this post tells me. Is it not reasonable to consider Lanning is largely responsible for how well the D performed as a counterpoint?
BearGreg seems to be one of the Tosh fans. Either that or Todh to Cal is a fait accompli and BearGreg is just providing cover for Ron Rivera's decision. I have yo say, I'm disappointed that BearGreg won't acknowledge that Oregon's defensive success may be attributable more to Lanning than to Tosh.
Agree, if Tosh is the guy I'd like to know so we can be having a conversation of what it might take for him to be successful, who he might get as OC, etc instead of why other candidates would be better.
Hey Ron, calumnus is kinda getting impatient for an update….so if you wouldn't mind speeding up your process that would be great. It's important that they have ample time to move on to the important work of getting you some feedback on how to make the new coach, whomever that is, successful.
Thanks for your consideration.
well, first he wants to see how things go tonight.
Tosh's defense is dominating UW so far
MathTeacherMike said:
Can someone please compare Dan Lanning's resume before being hired as Oregon's HC with Tosh's today. At a glance, Tosh's credentials look better than Lannings before getting his first HC job. Isn't Smart: Lanning equivalent to Lanning: Lupoi?
I see Tosh as being much less of a gamble than most of the candidates that have been bandied about. Tosh has spent much of his career in big-time successfull situations, with very solid leadership.
Honestly, The biggest upside of Tosh is Ron.
Two years ago hiring someone who had trouble managing a whole side of the ball, or program would be a disaster. Now we have a named and staffed position who can coach Tosh on management, while he handles like 40% of a head coaches job from previous generations.
Tosh's biggest weakness is Ron's greatest strengths.
He also WANTS to come to Cal, meaning he will not demand more than we can pay. He's aligned with Cal in a way very few coaches have been. He is maybe the best recruiter in the country, ensuring Cal grabs headlines and cache early.
Without Ron I am very hesitant. With Ron, Tosh checks boxes Cal might never be able to check, with price, recruiting, energy, potential upside...
Bearbassics said:Rushinbear said:aws56 said:calumnus said:01Bear said:upsetof86 said:
There's a lot of insider lobbying for Tosh is what this post tells me. Is it not reasonable to consider Lanning is largely responsible for how well the D performed as a counterpoint?
BearGreg seems to be one of the Tosh fans. Either that or Todh to Cal is a fait accompli and BearGreg is just providing cover for Ron Rivera's decision. I have yo say, I'm disappointed that BearGreg won't acknowledge that Oregon's defensive success may be attributable more to Lanning than to Tosh.
Agree, if Tosh is the guy I'd like to know so we can be having a conversation of what it might take for him to be successful, who he might get as OC, etc instead of why other candidates would be better.
Hey Ron, calumnus is kinda getting impatient for an update….so if you wouldn't mind speeding up your process that would be great. It's important that they have ample time to move on to the important work of getting you some feedback on how to make the new coach, whomever that is, successful.
Thanks for your consideration.
well, first he wants to see how things go tonight.
Tosh's defense is dominating UW so far
Ackshually that's [name here]'s defense.
ducky23 said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:01Bear said:BeggarEd said:
Did Tosh bang your GF when you were an undergrad or what? You pop up in every thread to try and discount him or hate on him. Weird behavior.
I don't discount him, I'm just looking at him critically, as I would with any other potential candidate. Unfortunately, too many other posters in this forum have Blue colored lenses and just see Tosh the Cal alumnus and recruiter then project that into how he's some sort of coaching savant. There's zero evidence for that supposition, but they adopt it as an article of faith. I'm just challenging that position by pointing out that he really has not proven to be someone who (1) can develop players and prepare them for the next level, (2) has an understanding of schemes necessary for a HC, or even (3) has the requisite ability to be a HC (let alone one who can turn around a floundering mediocre program).
It's just so ofd that there are so many posters worshipping at the altar of Tosh. I really don't understand that. While it's true that he was an excellent recruiter about a decade ago, the recruiting game is now changed considerably. Now, paying kids to play is completely legal, so he's lost that competitive advantage. Along those lines, kids are looking at each school's NIL packages before they sign; if a school's NIL doesn't match a kid's expectations or offers from other programs, he'll likely nix that school from his list.
(However, it should also be remembered that NIL isn't the end all be all of recruiting. Cal lost Nando because the staff couldn't develop him for the next level. This brings back the problem that Tosh has not proven that he managed to develop players. Sure he's worked under Saban and Lanning, but that's even more of a strike against him as a developer of talent, as those guys were/are defensive specialists, making it hard to credit Tosh with their development instead if those coaches. Had he coached under an offensive specialists, then the development of the defensive players under his care could be more attributable to him.)
Moreover, in today's college football world, the portal has changed the game greatly. Ten years ago, after a school signed a player, the player was more or less stuck at that program. Sure, he could transfer out, but he'd have to sit out a year of eligibility. Now, however, players can transfer out at the end of every year. So if a player gets buyer's remorse (after receiving his year of NIL payment) and realizes he's not being developed appropriately (again, see Nando), he can portal out.
Yet, none of the Tosh worshippers have addressed any of this in their evaluations of him as a potential HC, even though his forte is supposed to be recruiting. It seems blindingly obvious that if a guy's forte is recruiting, there should be something about how he has thrived in today's recruiting world. Unfortunately, by recruiting at Bama and Oregon, two blueblood football schools, it's hard to say for sure how much Tosh played a role was in bringing in the recruits. Those kids knew they were going to be developed for the next level by the coaching staff (and in Oregon's case, that they were sure to be paid to play.)
All of this elides Tosh's personal history with Cal. It's well-known Tosh betrayed Cal on his way to UW. That's not being relitigated here. Rather, my posts are taking a critical look at the candidate so many supporters seem to want. Tosh's resume isn't terribly different from Wilcox's before he was appointed Cal's HC (the main difference is that Tosh is supposed to be a superior recruiter). Cal just suffered 9 years of mediocrity under Wilcox. Cal can't afford to waste any more time under a Wilcox redux.
The number of NFL defensive players Tosh coach at Cal, Washington, Alabama and Oregon is a who's who of 1st round picks and NFL All Pros. Of course, if you think he did nothing and that the HCs he worked for did everything, I guess you're right?!
Again, how much of their development is attributable to Tosh and how much to the other coaches? IIRC, Tedford had some great DCs who kept getting hired away. So again, how much of their development players' development was due to Tosh and how much to the coaches under which he worked?
So the argument here is that Cam Jordan was developed by bob gregory?
"CAL gave me Coach Lupoi, who has been the greatest coach I've had and has helped develop techniques that come natural to me as well as introduce new techniques and do it in a way the players gravitate to want to learn them." - cam Jordan
If Tosh brings in Cam Jordan or Tyson Alualu as DL coach I will be very happy.
Also, I think Tosh is a great college DL coach: first, a great recruiter, which is an absolute must at that position, but also a good teacher of technique, something that made him Cal's stat leader despite playing with guys who would have NFL careers. He is a smart guy who is always looking for an edge.
I am not convinced he is a great DC or would be a great HC, but I think to be one he is going to need a big budget for staff and NIL, which means he is going to need to temper his own salary needs.
Bearbassics said:Rushinbear said:aws56 said:calumnus said:01Bear said:upsetof86 said:
There's a lot of insider lobbying for Tosh is what this post tells me. Is it not reasonable to consider Lanning is largely responsible for how well the D performed as a counterpoint?
BearGreg seems to be one of the Tosh fans. Either that or Todh to Cal is a fait accompli and BearGreg is just providing cover for Ron Rivera's decision. I have yo say, I'm disappointed that BearGreg won't acknowledge that Oregon's defensive success may be attributable more to Lanning than to Tosh.
Agree, if Tosh is the guy I'd like to know so we can be having a conversation of what it might take for him to be successful, who he might get as OC, etc instead of why other candidates would be better.
Hey Ron, calumnus is kinda getting impatient for an update….so if you wouldn't mind speeding up your process that would be great. It's important that they have ample time to move on to the important work of getting you some feedback on how to make the new coach, whomever that is, successful.
Thanks for your consideration.
well, first he wants to see how things go tonight.
Tosh's defense is dominating UW so far
I meant Rolo coaching us tonight.
I guess that we might get some sense of Tosh's hc ability from his management of the D side as a DC. How he leads game planning, film analysis, coord among his assistants, handling player concerns/motivation, etc. Is the DC responsible for his side of the budget? Spending accountability? Reporting? Public speaking? Conflict resolution? Anyone have a sense of whether or not he's handled these things and how well?
m2bear said:
Great players make great defenses.
Tosh can get great players at the level of Ohio State and Alabama.
Cal's defense will actually be good now for once.
Go Bears!
Exactly! That's my thinking.
LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
01Bear said:LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
His resume is the evidence. You are just discounting all of it and asking, what else?
socaliganbear said:01Bear said:LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
His resume is the evidence. You are just discounting all of it and asking, what else?
What about his resume? What do you know of what he actually did at his stops? That's the question none of the Tosh supporters can answer. They just assume that because he was at Bama and Oregon that he's somehow responsible for the defenses there. But that ignores the fact that at Bama, Tosh worked under Nick Saban, a defensive specialist and at Oregon, he works under Dan Lanning, another defensive specialist. Are the defenses at those schools Tosh's or the HC's?
01Bear said:socaliganbear said:01Bear said:LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
His resume is the evidence. You are just discounting all of it and asking, what else?
What about his resume? What do you know of what he actually did at his stops? That's the question none of the Tosh supporters can answer. They just assume that because he was at Bama and Oregon that he's somehow responsible for the defenses there. But that ignores the fact that at Bama, Tosh worked under Nick Saban, a defensive specialist and at Oregon, he works under Dan Lanning, another defensive specialist. Are the defenses at those schools Tosh's or the HC's?
That tells me they know defense and they hired accordingly. Good for them! I certainly don't know more about hiring than Dan Lanning or Nick Saban, much less so hiring for a defensive talent.
socaliganbear said:01Bear said:socaliganbear said:01Bear said:LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
His resume is the evidence. You are just discounting all of it and asking, what else?
What about his resume? What do you know of what he actually did at his stops? That's the question none of the Tosh supporters can answer. They just assume that because he was at Bama and Oregon that he's somehow responsible for the defenses there. But that ignores the fact that at Bama, Tosh worked under Nick Saban, a defensive specialist and at Oregon, he works under Dan Lanning, another defensive specialist. Are the defenses at those schools Tosh's or the HC's?
That tells me they know defense and they hired accordingly. Good for them! I certainly don't know more about hiring than Dan Lanning or Nick Saban, much less so hiring for a defensive talent.
Or did they hire him to recruit, that being his forte?
01Bear said:socaliganbear said:01Bear said:socaliganbear said:01Bear said:LunchTime said:01Bear said:BearGreg said:
These are the advanced metric efficiency stats:
2021: ESPN 40th / PFF 87th. (Prior to Dan Lanning and Tosh Lupoi arriving in Eugene)
then
2022: ESPN 37th / PFF 58th
2023: ESPN 15th / PFF 19th
2024: ESPN 21st / PFF 7th
2025: ESPN 5th / PFF 11th
It's hard to attribute that to Tosh and not to Lanning. Lanning was a defensive OC and specialist before he was ever made a HC. Might as well claim that the current Warriors dynasty is due to Draymond Green. Sure, he played a role, but without Kerr and (more importantly) Curry, Draymond would not be a NBA champion.
What could you see that would make you say Tosh did well? It seems like nothing.
Matter of fact, I have yet to see anyone who is anti Tosh allow any information move the needle even slightly for them.
It's all hyperbolic "someone else did that" implying his is the luckiest guy who has ever walked the earth.
Honestly, even if he just happens to align himself with all these great people who he leaches off of through pure luck, we should want a piece of that luck.
Take away 2012 and Shaq. 99% of the "He's not very good" goes away.
It's on Tosh supporters to prove what he did as an assistant coach that can be attributed to him. All the fluffing of Tosh just makes assumptions without providing any evidence of what he actually did.
His resume is the evidence. You are just discounting all of it and asking, what else?
What about his resume? What do you know of what he actually did at his stops? That's the question none of the Tosh supporters can answer. They just assume that because he was at Bama and Oregon that he's somehow responsible for the defenses there. But that ignores the fact that at Bama, Tosh worked under Nick Saban, a defensive specialist and at Oregon, he works under Dan Lanning, another defensive specialist. Are the defenses at those schools Tosh's or the HC's?
That tells me they know defense and they hired accordingly. Good for them! I certainly don't know more about hiring than Dan Lanning or Nick Saban, much less so hiring for a defensive talent.
Or did they hire him to recruit, that being his forte?
Well, Lanning is also a great recruiter and also coached under a defensive coach at Georgia. And Kirby also coached as a DC for a defensive minded coach. So either these elite coaches know what they're doing and hiring accordingly or no one but Nick Saban is good at defense and everyone else is just smoke and mirrors and Georgia and Oregon secretly suck. Wild!
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