Cost of Ivy league education

burritos

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11:46a, 11/14/11

spoke with a colleague whose son is attending Penn. Dad pays 6k a month while he's in school for the whole kit and kaboodle. Does that sound right? Seems kind of expensive to me.

dajo9

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In reply to burritos • 11:51a, 11/14/11

Depends on where the kid is leaving. Philadelphia isn't cheap. And, for all we know, that includes car expense, ski trips, etc.

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In reply to burritos • 11:53a, 11/14/11

I only went for grad school so the tuition is probably different, but my tuition was $5k/ month (60,000), before living expenses.

WildBear

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In reply to burritos • 12:02p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">burritos;624285 said:</div><hr>spoke with a colleague whose son is attending Penn. Dad pays 6k a month while he's in school for the whole kit and kaboodle. Does that sound right? Seems kind of expensive to me.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />About right. Figure in $4500 for tuition, $1000 for apartment, $350 for groceries, $250 dinners out, books, flights home, etc....

maxer

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In reply to 2ndQtrBear • 12:02p, 11/14/11

82gradDLSdad

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In reply to maxer • 12:11p, 11/14/11

but how well off would the same kid be at retirement age if his parents put $72,000 per year into a diversified portfolio of mostly stocks from ages 18-22? Some of you in the financial planning industry could probably blow our socks off with some estimated return numbers given a $300,000 nest egg growing for 40 years.

burritos

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In reply to maxer • 12:20p, 11/14/11

I wonder what the percentage of students graduating from Ivies free and clear is? The number of parents able to pay 280k per kid can't be that high.

86Oski

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In reply to burritos • 12:25p, 11/14/11

burritos

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12:34p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">drunkoski;624329 said:</div><hr>a lot get some form of financial aid even if their parents can be considered upper middle class.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Upper middle class, what is that based on? Your pay? Equity in your home? Address? 401k size?

socaltownie

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In reply to 82gradDLSdad • 12:37p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">82gradDLSdad;624316 said:</div><hr>but how well off would the same kid be at retirement age if his parents put $72,000 per year into a diversified portfolio of mostly stocks from ages 18-22? Some of you in the financial planning industry could probably blow our socks off with some estimated return numbers given a $300,000 nest egg growing for 40 years.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />You are assuming that you only start contributing at 18. It is even more pronounced if you figure in returns from saving earlier (we started before little socaltownie #1 and #2 were born). <br /><br />There is a huge premium for 4 year degree over just HS. But the BEST thing you could do for your kid, strictly looking at money, is <br /><br />A) send them to cal<br />B) make them get an BS in Engineering - ideally with a high growth subspecialty.<br />C) Let them live in the garage/granny flat<br />D) Put whatever you saved over Penn as seed money in an IRA for them<br /><br />Your kid might hate you at 18 but they are going to LOVE you at 50 when they can retire early.<br /><br />The "interesting" question is if you kid is NOT good enough to get into UCB but can get an engineering degree at a CalState. I haven't seen any good data to see what the limitation in earning power is. My gut tells me "not much". I also haven't seen whether a STEM degree from one of the elite technicals (CAl Tech, MIT, RIT) gives folks a premium in the private sector (undoubtedly does if they want to be in the academy)<br /><br />Where Ivies and elite Publics come directly into long term play is if your child is interested in a field where GRADUATE school is critical. Having a Cal (or a Penn) degree is, for example, very valuable if the next stop for them is an elite law school, MBA program, Med School, or a PhD program. The hard thing is at 16, who the bleep knows.

UrsaMajor

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In reply to burritos • 12:43p, 11/14/11

My son is at Brown. Total cost=$48K/year. btw, $6K/month doesn't = $72K, it equals $54K (9 month school year)

calumnus

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In reply to UrsaMajor • 12:55p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">UrsaMajor;624354 said:</div><hr>My son is at Brown. Total cost=$48K/year. btw, $6K/month doesn't = $72K, it equals $54K (9 month school year)<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Puts the $3,300/month I am paying for my daughter at UCSD in perspective.

Cal88

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In reply to burritos • 12:57p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">burritos;624325 said:</div><hr>I wonder what the percentage of students graduating from Ivies free and clear is? The number of parents able to pay 280k per kid can't be that high.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />I would guess around 10-15 million parents in the US, that's more than enough to fill all Ivy spots many, many times over. That's why you have a lot of mid-tier expensive private schools too.

Son-of-California

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In reply to calumnus • 12:59p, 11/14/11

I would think it puts the cost/value of a Cal degree in better perspective for those that think otherwise.

dajo9

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In reply to 82gradDLSdad • 1:00p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">82gradDLSdad;624316 said:</div><hr>but how well off would the same kid be at retirement age if his parents put $72,000 per year into a diversified portfolio of mostly stocks from ages 18-22? Some of you in the financial planning industry could probably blow our socks off with some estimated return numbers given a $300,000 nest egg growing for 40 years.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />What is the kid going to live off of during those 40 years?<br /><br />If my kid got into an ivy I would happily pay for it. Lots of doors are open for ivy league kids. What I don't get are the small, liberal arts schools that cost just as much but don't carry nearly the clout. My kids and I would have a serious row if my kid's heart was set on going to Middlebury (yes, I know it's a good school, but I ain't paying for it).

Rushinbear

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In reply to dajo9 • 1:15p, 11/14/11

dajo - those small liberal arts schools offer lots of things that even the Ivies don't.<br /><br />But, to the point, depending on the department/major, each of the faculty at those schools (vast majority, anyway) has a personal connection with at least one faculty in a great grad school. You do well as an undergrad and that faculty member can make a call. Often, same holds true with connections in the business world, especially if you have an interest in staying in that geographical vicinity after graduation.<br /><br />Plus, at many of them, you can get at least as good an education as you can at an Ivy.

dajo9

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In reply to Rushinbear • 1:22p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">Rushinbear;624397 said:</div><hr>dajo - those small liberal arts schools offer lots of things that even the Ivies don't.<br /><br />But, to the point, depending on the department/major, each of the faculty at those schools (vast majority, anyway) has a personal connection with at least one faculty in a great grad school. You do well as an undergrad and that faculty member can make a call. Often, same holds true with connections in the business world, especially if you have an interest in staying in that geographical vicinity after graduation.<br /><br />Plus, at many of them, you can get at least as good an education as you can at an Ivy.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />I ain't paying.<br /><br />I will tell them they can take out loans for their liberal arts school and they can be broke like I was in college, or I can send them to state school, buy them a car as a bribe, and invest the difference as part of their inheritance.

Son-of-California

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1:23p, 11/14/11

If, at some point, kids don't earn large multiples of what their tuition cost, then there was a problem somewhere along the line...from choice of school and/or field of study to career choice(s). I can't imagine someone needing an undergrad and grad. degree from some Ivy league type school if they are planning on a low-paying (no matter how nobel or rewarding) career.

Cal84

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In reply to burritos • 1:35p, 11/14/11

Sounds like your colleague is talking about what he is paying when school is in session. He probably isn't pro-rating tuition, dorm, etc. costs over the summer.<br /><br />82DSL: as Einstein famously said, "The most powerful force in the universe is compound interest". If taxes weren't a factor, a good rule of thumb would be that you ought to be able to double your money every 10 years. Assuming you sunk $40k that could have gone to paying additional college tuition into investments when the kid was 18, that money would be worth more than $1 million when the kid retired. That's a decent slug of money, but is it decisive? Depends. I'd probably spend the $40k a year for 4 years rather than get no degree - even at the opportunity cost of ~$4 mm in retirement funds. But do you spend say an extra $35k per year for 4 years (i.e. a ~$3.5 mm in retirement funds) to get a Art history degree from Yale rather than an Accounting degree from San Jose State? Hmmm....

82gradDLSdad

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In reply to dajo9 • 1:35p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">dajo9;624375 said:</div><hr>What is the kid going to live off of during those 40 years?<br /><br />If my kid got into an ivy I would happily pay for it. Lots of doors are open for ivy league kids. What I don't get are the small, liberal arts schools that cost just as much but don't carry nearly the clout. My kids and I would have a serious row if my kid's heart was set on going to Middlebury (yes, I know it's a good school, but I ain't paying for it).<hr></blockquote><br /><br />How 'bout we invest the difference between $300,000 and what it costs for 2 years at a JC and 2 years at Cal?

calumnus

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In reply to dajo9 • 1:41p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">dajo9;624375 said:</div><hr>What is the kid going to live off of during those 40 years?<br /><br /><hr></blockquote><br /><br />Exactly. The interest would not compound, the kid would have to live off of the interest to supplement his (presumably lower) income. So $300,000 if it earned 5%, would be an additional $15,000 per year. A generous 10% is only $30,000. In most cases college is far and away the better investment. <br /><br />However, if your son is a Gates, Zuckerberg, Jobs or Wozniak, letting him drop out of college and investing in the company he starts is the better investment. <br /><br />I do think that a college education is valuable in its own right and the colege experience is far more important to my children's development and future than just the increase in their future earnings.

Rushinbear

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1:42p, 11/14/11

Just sayin'<br /><br />Truth be told, it's a prestige thing - for the parents (and for the kids, too, I guess; in my HS going to the state university was an outright admission that you were dumb). At work, parties, PTA meetings, etc., there are enough parents who want to avoid "admitting" their kid is in a state school to keep those little private schools chugging along nicely.

dajo9

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In reply to Rushinbear • 1:47p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">Rushinbear;624438 said:</div><hr>Just sayin'<br /><br />Truth be told, it's a prestige thing - for the parents (and for the kids, too, I guess; in my HS going to the state university was an outright admission that you were dumb). At work, parties, PTA meetings, etc., there are enough parents who want to avoid "admitting" their kid is in a state school to keep those little private schools chugging along nicely.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Curious, what part of the country did you grow up in? I sense that in the east where I am and my refusal to go along is part of why I feel so strongly about it. But I never felt that way growing up in California. Of course, in my community anybody going to any college was considered a fancypants.

Bear8

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In reply to Cal84 • 1:52p, 11/14/11

My son graduated Cornell in May. Our cost was $38K for tuition and another 12-15K for additionals, such as apartment, car maintenance, frat, Starbucks, and other amusements, including flights home to L.A.

calumnus

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In reply to 82gradDLSdad • 1:59p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">82gradDLSdad;624422 said:</div><hr>How 'bout we invest the difference between $300,000 and what it costs for 2 years at a JC and 2 years at Cal?<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Bingo. <br /><br />OK, Anybody here whose kid does not get into Cal and really wants to go, this is the alternative I worked out for my daughter: enroll in Berkeley City College--start in summer and get into the co-op system (when there are lots of vacancies) which will then give you priority for the Fall. The Berkeley co-op system does not require you to go to Cal, just be a student (same with I-House I believe). Also, there are other private student housing options (one on Bancroft and College that I know of). <br /><br />Berkeley City college has great, brand new facilities on Center right off Shattuck (so commuting there by BART is also an option). They also have classes on the Cal campus. Some of the classes are even taught by Cal professors. Also, any California Community College student is entitled to take one class each quarter/semester at a UC (and pay community college fees). Your kid can go to Cal games, wear Cal sweatshirts, hang out with friends who go to Cal, go to Cal parties and if anyone asks where they go to school they can truthfully say "Berkeley." After two years, with just decent grades they transfer to Cal to finish and get their Cal degree. <br /><br />My daughter was really disappointed she did not get into Cal, and chose to go to UC San Diego instead of following her dad's crazy alternative plan above, but I think this plan was totally workable.

burritos

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In reply to Cal88 • 2:00p, 11/14/11

socaltownie

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In reply to calumnus • 2:20p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">calumnus;624471 said:</div><hr>Bingo. <br /><br />OK, Anybody here whose kid does not get into Cal and really wants to go, this is the alternative I worked out for my daughter: enroll in Berkeley City College--start in summer and get into the co-op system (when there are lots of vacancies) which will then give you priority for the Fall. The Berkeley co-op system does not require you to go to Cal, just be a student (same with I-House I believe). Also, there are other private student housing options (one on Bancroft and College that I know of). <br /><br />Berkeley City college has great, brand new facilities on Center right off Shattuck (so commuting there by BART is also an option). They also have classes on the Cal campus. Some of the classes are even taught by Cal professors. Also, any California Community College student is entitled to take one class each quarter/semester at a UC (and pay community college fees). Your kid can go to Cal games, wear Cal sweatshirts, hang out with friends who go to Cal, go to Cal parties and if anyone asks where they go to school they can truthfully say "Berkeley." After two years, with just decent grades they transfer to Cal to finish and get their Cal degree. <br /><br />My daughter was really disappointed she did not get into Cal, and chose to go to UC San Diego instead of following her dad's crazy alternative plan above, but I think this plan was totally workable.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Absolutely in the near term. I am not completely up-to-speed but I believe that UCB still is party to the automatic admission agreements concerning Junior transfers from JCs. You will have to look it up to be sure. <br /><br />Indeed, I MIGHT make an argument that given proper partental support/augmented readings the first 2 years at a JC are FAR superior than huge lecture classes with sections taught by TAs. The 2 cents would be to stay away from survey courses in your major, focus on general education requirements as much as possible, and thus transfer in as Junior ready to focus on your major/minor as much as possible.

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In reply to burritos • 2:24p, 11/14/11

One of my friends graduated from Harvard not owing a cent. All covered by Harvard. She even studied abroad in Spain, Italy and Argentina-- all on Harvard's dime.

socaltownie

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In reply to SoCalBear323 • 2:29p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">SoCalBear323;624519 said:</div><hr>One of my friends graduated from Harvard not owing a cent. All covered by Harvard. She even studied abroad in Spain, Italy and Argentina-- all on Harvard's dime.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Harvard is a unique outlier in American Higher Education. Multi-billion endowment will allow for that. <br /><br />But all that said, you still get lecture halls, TAs and in the case of Harvard most classes being taught by Junior Faculty who are not on tenure track.

pingpong2

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In reply to burritos • 2:58p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">burritos;624285 said:</div><hr>spoke with a colleague whose son is attending Penn. Dad pays 6k a month while he's in school for the whole kit and kaboodle. Does that sound right? Seems kind of expensive to me.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Room and board + tuition for my brother at Dartmouth costs about $55k a year. Given that he's only in school 9 months, that comes out to around 6k a month, so I'd say it's accurate.

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In reply to socaltownie • 3:32p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">socaltownie;624523 said:</div><hr>Harvard is a unique outlier in American Higher Education. Multi-billion endowment will allow for that. <br /><br />But all that said, you still get lecture halls, TAs and in the case of Harvard most classes being taught by Junior Faculty who are not on tenure track.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Not sure about the rest of the Ivy's but Stanfurd is in the same boat (as far as tuition is concerned). Had a friend who had 75% of her costs covered b/c her household income was under 100k (basically only had to pay living expenses). Ended up paying less than she would have at Cal...

Strykur

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In reply to socaltownie • 3:40p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">socaltownie;624523 said:</div><hr>Harvard is a unique outlier in American Higher Education. Multi-billion endowment will allow for that. <br /><br />But all that said, you still get lecture halls, TAs and in the case of Harvard most classes being taught by Junior Faculty who are not on tenure track.<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Most of the non-tenured faculty at Harvard are happy as hell to grace the hallowed halls of Harvard, they will easily get a tenure offer somewhere else at some point.

Out Of The Past

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In reply to Strykur • 5:01p, 11/14/11

I attended an Ivy grad school (Princeton) after completing my Cal degree. Princeton was very enthusiastic about Cal grads because they were convinced that Cal grads could easily do the work there. The dean of my graduate school even asked me what they could do to attract more Cal graduates because they had a high regard for Cal. They considered the undergraduate grading equal to their own. I went to an Ivy grad school for three reasons. One, the graduate department offered a unique perspective that I had not found at Cal. Two, the faculty I most admired at Cal were graduates of Ivy grad schools. Three, the name recognition and consequent networking possibilities of the alumni in my particular field exceeded Cal's (which were not negligible, just less).

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In reply to Out Of The Past • 5:08p, 11/14/11

Can you tell us what area you studied? We still won't know who you are.

burritos

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In reply to Out Of The Past • 5:19p, 11/14/11

<blockquote><div class="name-said">Number 031343;624722 said:</div><hr>I attended an Ivy grad school (Princeton) after completing my Cal degree. Princeton was very enthusiastic about Cal grads because they were convinced that Cal grads could easily do the work there. The dean of my graduate school even asked me what they could do to attract more Cal graduates because they had a high regard for Cal. They considered the undergraduate grading equal to their own. I went to an Ivy grad school for three reasons. One, the graduate department offered a unique perspective that I had not found at Cal. Two, the faculty I most admired at Cal were graduates of Ivy grad schools. Three, the name recognition and consequent networking possibilities of the alumni in my particular field exceeded Cal's (which were not negligible, just less).<hr></blockquote><br /><br />Are you sure it wasn't Cal Tech they were talking about? <br /><br />It's amazing that despite their consistent top rankings year after year, they are never included in the conversation of elite universities.