Much of this thread supports many people's claims that Cal fans are hypocrictical elitists.

Oregon is a good school.

Okay Im not going to contribute to this thread after this because it's starting to become a Bear bashing on another Bear thread.

Let me just make my opinion clear:
1 - Having a big-time college football/basketball team is a HUGE part of the college experience for many students. I mean if it wasn't, why would most of us be on this board? Whenever you return to campus, is it for a show in Zellerbach or is it for a Cal football game? Most people would say the ladder. Im not saying I would choose Oregon solely on the fact that they have a good football team. But if I didn't have the grades to get into a mid-tier UC or higher and really wanted to go to a 4-year college out of high school, I would have considered UO. Ultimately, I didnt. CC route = I wanted to go to a top UC, couldnt afford out-of-state which brings me to my next point:

2) If you guys are going to bash UO based off of cost-efficiency (i.e. UO costs more so why send your kid there?), why not just send every kid to a CC? If you think about it, if the kid was "Cal-material", he'll/she'll ultimately end up with a degree from Cal...right? The problem here is you are totally discounting the "college experience" which kids from HS who get into 4-years are privileged enough to get. I hated my year at a CC. When most of my friends were joining greek life, partying on Thursday nights, going to football games, etc - I was at home, studying. I mean, hey - it ultimately worked out for me in the end, but I only got 2 years of the college experience vs other students who got 4.

3) Im not being elitist or bashing on lower-tier UC's like Merced and Riverside. Completely different subject. Im just saying - Oregon is a good school on it's own and people who attend it should not be criticized for it.

4) Dont bash on other Bear fans and their kids. Seriously. That is pathetic. If their kids were not able to go to Cal and chose to go to Oregon instead, why feel the urge to put them down? We are all on the same side. We all love Cal.

Awww, now you went and flattered me. I take back my post and agree with you. Oregon sucks.

He has heard of the roast duck scene and I will have to forward. Every episode is in a box in my basement. Steve has converted some to digital and we keep trying to find time and energy to make a DVD set. I want to see them myself. I haven't seen an episode in over 15 years and don't remember half of the bits. It was a blur ... and a blast.

I think you have confused two words: whining and disappointed. Thanks for the cold harsh splash of truth--I guess I was just wanting to avoid the facts and cower and cry and bellyache to anyone that would feel sorry for me.

Yes, he would have had a better chance of acceptance in 1982 then now. And yes I was well aware that he was going to have to be lucky. And yes I can still be saddened that a 4 generation string is ending. And yes my kid is still bright and would be a great addition to Cal--but not to be. But I'll save posting any sentimental crap in the future and reread the brochures.

There are some kindergartners you can go talk to at a playground and let them know the limits of their aspiration supported by data and matrices ... and then how to react appropriately to their limits.

Another thing missing from the thread is that the "work your butt off" route through a JC is not as clear cut and sure as it was when I was at Cal. Now getting classes that transfer are hard to get and the JCs are glutted. Everyone is trying that route too. The bottom-line: the backdoor ways to Cal and the pull up your own britches are not there the way they were either.

Tough time for high school seniors right now.

ducky23;841905984 said:

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I have one policy on this board; I do not argue with Ken Montgomery and I do not argue with the creator(s) of Bear Territory. These people were a huge part of my childhood and had a tremendous influence on my Cal fandom. So whatever they say must be right and all that is holy. So I concede that I was misguided and totally off base in my assertions.

As an aside, do you ever show your son clips of your roast duck segment, I think he would find that quite funny.



Bear Territory is my favorite TV show of all time. Do you have DVD's of all your shows? I would definitely be willing to buy them.

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Is this the same Ken M. that led the cheers in 1991-1992? One of my all time fav's was 1-2-3 "PLUCK THE DUCK". Yeah, that was plucking awesome.

blungld;841906047 said:

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Awww, now you went and flattered me. I take back my post and agree with you. Oregon sucks.

He has heard of the roast duck scene and I will have to forward. Every episode is in a box in my basement. Steve has converted some to digital and we keep trying to find time and energy to make a DVD set. I want to see them myself. I haven't seen an episode in over 15 years and don't remember half of the bits. It was a blur ... and a blast.

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If you ever do get around to putting a DVD set together, that would be awesome. Remember to let us all know, I will be the first in line to buy them.

burritos;841906058 said:

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Is this the same Ken M. that led the cheers in 1991-1992? One of my all time fav's was 1-2-3 "PLUCK THE DUCK". Yeah, that was plucking awesome.

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You didn't know that Ken M. is a frequent poster on this board? And yes, same Ken Montgomery. He's also a frequent contributor over on California Golden Blogs. He also took out Alex Morgan in CGB's Hall of Fame voting.

http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2012/5/13/3014655/cgb-hall-of-fame-1-alex-morgan-v-16-ken-montgomery

ah, the early 90's....those were the golden years for me....kidd, murray, russell white, citrus bowl, sweet 16. from the band, to the student section, rally comm, the mic men, just everything seemed better back then.

ducky23;841906062 said:

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You didn't know that Ken M. is a frequent poster on this board? And yes, same Ken Montgomery. He's also a frequent contributor over on California Golden Blogs. He also took out Alex Morgan in CGB's Hall of Fame voting.

http://www.californiagoldenblogs.com/2012/5/13/3014655/cgb-hall-of-fame-1-alex-morgan-v-16-ken-montgomery

ah, the early 90's....those were the golden years for me....kidd, murray, russell white, citrus bowl, sweet 16. from the band, to the student section, rally comm, the mic men, just everything seemed better back then.

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I kind of knew, but didn't think about it until you just brought it up. And, yes, those were the golden years for me. Well, actually it was only one good year. The first three years, I pretty much just studied and like 90% of Cal students, ignored sports entirely.

running bear;841906002 said:

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When is cost not a legitimate component in college selection? College choice a major life decision being made by an adult and hence cost should be considered (regardless of who is paying). Would an adult not consider the cost in buying a new car or house? Also, I've seen far too many people take on huge education debt without considering their earning potential after college (ability to repay). It really doesn't help them in the long run.

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Cost certainly is a major factor worth considering, but you may not realize how expensive UCs have become. Full cost of tuition, fees, room & board (on campus apartment with the cheapest meal plan of 50 meals per quarter) at UC Santa Cruz ran almost $30,000 this last year, and that did not include grocery money, books, gas, personal expenses, etc. These costs have increased dramatically each year, and at this rate will approach $135,000 or more for incoming freshman for four years - assuming they can graduate in four years (which is becoming more difficult due to class closures).

running bear;841906019 said:

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Did the UC's drop the number of freshmen they admit? No, they've worked to increase the numbers of students they can admit since the 90's.

During that intervening time period, the SATs have been revised to increase the average score and GPAs have trended higher with AP class scoring....

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Yes, but you are forgetting four facts: (1) the student population in this state has increased, (2) a significantly greater number of students are going on to college (perhaps in part due to the elimination of vocational programs/classes in middle and high schools), (3) a larger percentage of students are choosing to go to public universities (perhaps in large part due to the economy), and (4) UCs are admitting more out-of-state and international students for the limited freshman slots (a necessity due to the decreased support from the state which now contributes less money for each student than his/her family pays through tuition and fees).

running bear;841906019 said:

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Does the UC consider where a students parents went? No, they never have. The UC's as a public institution (if I recall correctly) are pretty transparent about the GPA ranges and SAT ranges they admit. Exceptions are made, but those exceptions are usually clearly indicated in the literature, and if you don't qualify as one, the previous year(s) admission ranges are your best guide...

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The UCs are very honest and transparent that they give admission preference to students whose parents did not attend college, to the disadvantage of would-be legacies. Moreover, they give preference to students from economically and academically disadvantaged schools.

blungld;841906055 said:

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Another thing missing from the thread is that the "work your butt off" route through a JC is not as clear cut and sure as it was when I was at Cal. Now getting classes that transfer are hard to get and the JCs are glutted. Everyone is trying that route too. The bottom-line: the backdoor ways to Cal and the pull up your own britches are not there the way they were either.

Tough time for high school seniors right now.

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Exactly. Also, students who go the JC route miss the social opportunities of the freshman year when most students meet friends who will remain in the social circles for the next 4 years, and often beyond. Another factor to consider is the peer group in a JC: in most community colleges the vast majority of students do not go on to a four-year college or university. It would not be a desirable place for a student who is easily influenced. Finally, as blungld said, the JCs have faced significant cuts. I know students who have not been able to enroll in more than one or two classes, meaning it takes longer to get the transfer credit (and, up until the passage of the Affordable Care Act, they couldn't get enough units to qualify for their parents health plan).

A JC is a great alternative for many students, but not everyone.

blungld;841906053 said:

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I think you have confused two words: whining and disappointed. Thanks for the cold harsh splash of truth--I guess I was just wanting to avoid the facts and cower and cry and bellyache to anyone that would feel sorry for me.

Yes, he would have had a better chance of acceptance in 1982 then now. And yes I was well aware that he was going to have to be lucky. And yes I can still be saddened that a 4 generation string is ending. And yes my kid is still bright and would be a great addition to Cal--but not to be. But I'll save posting any sentimental crap in the future and reread the brochures.

There are some kindergartners you can go talk to at a playground and let them know the limits of their aspiration supported by data and matrices ... and then how to react appropriately to their limits.

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Come on, reread your posting. The air of entitlement was offensive.

I think we should lay off the Ducks on this thread. I don't like their team or many of their fans but for the most part, their visiting posters on this site have been cordial and offered something worth a sh*t while posting. The academic and athletic prowess of the PAC 12 will inevitably lead to increased visibility and benefits to all of its members on both the national and international scene. Everyone knows who the academic and athletic powers are within the PAC at this point in time. With this in mind, I think we all benefit from our collective success in our respective arenas and this is why we are the conference of champions.

GO BEARS!
GO PAC 12!

Offensive? Really? That's the word you would choose?

What exactly was entitled? It was a lament about the current situation of UC and how well qualified kids can't get in (my son being one). I am not outraged. I am disappointed and picked another school.

Either you need a dictionary or your meter is set really sensitively.

blungld;841906115 said:

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Offensive? Really? That's the word you would choose?

What exactly was entitled? It was a lament about the current situation of UC and how well qualified kids can't get in (my son being one). I am not outraged. I am disappointed and picked another school.

Either you need a dictionary or your meter is set really sensitively.

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Just my 2 cents but I reread what you wrote and I didn't find it offensive at all or filled with entitlement. I'm not sure how old runningbear is but I totally understand what you are saying. It is much much tougher to get into Cal than it was back in the 70's and 80's....I mean, you still had to be an outstanding student but not to the extent it is these days. He must be reading you from some bias or oversensitive to the subject because you simply would have liked him to go to Cal but considering all the facts and criteria, accepted your son's decision to go to another school of his choosing.....basically the stuff of real life.

[QUOTE=]Offensive? Really? That's the word you would choose?

What exactly was entitled? It was a lament about the current situation of UC and how well qualified kids can't get in (my son being one). I am not outraged. I am disappointed and picked another school.

Either you need a dictionary or your meter is set really sensitively.

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[QUOTE=]He would have been 4th generation Cal. It's a sad thing that a legacy is over. Sadder still that a good student and a bright kid can't get into a UC in this day after the taxes we have paid in all these years and the donations we've made.

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If I'm not mistaken Cal offered admission to some 4000-5000 freshmen. They do not consider the amount of taxes paid by parents or donations by parents in the admission process.

Ok, I'll sorry to come down so hard, but the inference that money paid should affect admission strikes me as entitlement.

I'll stop now. I can see you didn't intend any offense. I get a little upset when we talk about a college education like its a right that should be cheap, convenient, and pleasurable.

Please forget me and have a good evening.

CalReason;841906132 said:

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yeah, bash a university that offers access. And all that fact indicated is that more of the students will be sub-standard, it has no reflection on the quality of professors, schools or programs with in the university.

And accepting all those California kids = cha ching out-of-state tuition.

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Fyi:

Acceptance Rate/Average Incoming GPA

Arizona: 70%/3.39
ASU: 91%/3.4
Colorado: 83%/3.55
Oregon: 73%/3.59
Oregon State: 82%/3.51
Utah: 83%/3.53
UW: 58%/3.75
Wazzu: 82%/3.34

CalReason;841906132 said:

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yeah, bash a university that offers access. And all that fact indicated is that more of the students will be sub-standard, it has no reflection on the quality of professors, schools or programs with in the university.

And accepting all those California kids = cha ching out-of-state tuition.

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I don't want to sound like Oliver Stone, but is it a mere coincidence that a large number public universities across the country are admitting and enrolling out-of-state students in record numbers? It is as if they are trading for one another's residents to raise revenue.

running bear;841906134 said:

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...I get a little upset when we talk about a college education like its a right that should be cheap, convenient, and pleasurable....

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Families like ours who paid taxes for several generations did so with the understanding that we were "paying it forward": covering the free or low cost college education for the next generation of Californians. Unfortunately, this understanding was lost in the last 10-20 years. There is something wrong with this picture: it is now cheaper for a student from a middle class family to attend Harvard (and most other Ivy League schools) than Cal.

College shouldn't necessarily be "convenient" but should be "pleasurable" (for most of us, it represents four of the best years of our lives and presents fodder for frequent reminiscing), and public education (like other public services) should be "cheap."

Anyone who loves his or her alma mater (as I suspect most of us who follow our favorite teams do) will be disappointed if his or her child does not get admitted, even more so if that student had good grades and test scores.

I guess I am needlessly stirring the pot, but boy am I glad I am not your son. Hell yes college should be pleasurable. Why shouldn't learning be enjoyable? Why shouldn't self-discovery and growing as a person and intellectual not be a mind-blowing exhilarating four years. Was for me. Sorry if you missed out on the fun.

As far as cheap and convenient, where did I say anything about either? I had no expectation that paying for his education was going to be easy or inexpensive. I did have the expectation that residents of California that are paying taxes would have access to great higher-education-especially over out of state and international students all things being equal. I think that a lot of very qualified bright young Californians are not getting the same opportunities I was given.

That aside, why shouldn't be college be cheap and convenient. What are we creating torture chambers hear? I think education is the noblest service to citizens and a smart investment in the future. Why wouldn't we want to better allocate our state/federal budgets so that education isn't more affordable? And yes the application process is unnecessarily bureaucratic and complicated--could be more convenient.

Why in the world should we as a state--and as parents and alumnae--not lament the decline in our ability to provide higher-education to our bright minds to create the next generation of thought leadership? I hope every smart kid DOES feel entitled to a university that is ready to excite him/her and give them four pleasurable years that are cheap and convenient--and that in turn that student works their butt off; appreciates the legacy and opportunity; and then contributes to our communities and coffers ... and so it should go from generation to generation.

blungld;841906344 said:

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I guess I am needlessly stirring the pot, but boy am I glad I am not your son. Hell yes college should be pleasurable. Why shouldn't learning be enjoyable? Why shouldn't self-discovery and growing as a person and intellectual not be a mind-blowing exhilarating four years. Was for me. Sorry if you missed out on the fun.

As far as cheap and convenient, where did I say anything about either? I had no expectation that paying for his education was going to be easy or inexpensive. I did have the expectation that residents of California that are paying taxes would have access to great higher-education-especially over out of state and international students all things being equal. I think that a lot of very qualified bright young Californians are not getting the same opportunities I was given.

That aside, why shouldn't be college be cheap and convenient. What are we creating torture chambers hear? I think education is the noblest service to citizens and a smart investment in the future. Why wouldn't we want to better allocate our state/federal budgets so that education isn't more affordable? And yes the application process is unnecessarily bureaucratic and complicated--could be more convenient.

Why in the world should we as a state--and as parents and alumnae--not lament the decline in our ability to provide higher-education to our bright minds to create the next generation of thought leadership? I hope every smart kid DOES feel entitled to a university that is ready to excite him/her and give them four pleasurable years that are cheap and convenient--and that in turn that student works their butt off; appreciates the legacy and opportunity; and then contributes to our communities and coffers ... and so it should go from generation to generation.

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Sorry but the California voters decided that your tax dollars should go to law enforcement. College is for the rich and the massively soon-to-be indebted. Better luck next generation.

blungld;841906344 said:

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As far as cheap and convenient, where did I say anything about either? I had no expectation that paying for his education was going to be easy or inexpensive. I did have the expectation that residents of California that are paying taxes would have access to great higher-education-especially over out of state and international students all things being equal. I think that a lot of very qualified bright young Californians are not getting the same opportunities I was given.

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What about California kids whose parents didn't pay taxes? Should they be on par with out-of-state and foreign students in the application process, all else equal, and behind CA kids whose parents did pay taxes?

And what about CA kids whose parents paid a lot of taxes? All else equal, should that be an advantage?

dajo9;841906346 said:

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Sorry but the California voters decided that your tax dollars should go to law enforcement. College is for the rich and the massively soon-to-be indebted. Better luck next generation.

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I agree with your sentiment, but allow me to make one small correction: not so much "law enforcement" as "correctional officers." The prison industry has taken over from the military industrial complex about which President Eisenhower warned us.

Mr. Frumble;841906355 said:

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What about California kids whose parents didn't pay taxes? Should they be on par with out-of-state and foreign students in the application process, all else equal, and behind CA kids whose parents did pay taxes?

And what about CA kids whose parents paid a lot of taxes? All else equal, should that be an advantage?

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All parents pay "a lot of taxes." Lower middle class family pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes. Even the poor pay taxes and are more adversely affected by the regressive sales tax. If they do find better paying jobs they will pay the same taxes as their fellow residents with comparable incomes; if out-of-state residents get higher paying jobs, they still won't pay taxes for California services.

dajo9;841905985 said:

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I'll one up you on that. I view paying for college and a wedding as a real joy (if I stay on track). Not something my parents were able to do and something I really want and am planning to do.

I just weight the value proposition more than others do and others weight the connection aspect more. Like I said, I would happily pay top dollar for a top end school. For less I plan to pay less - I don't think of it as tough love (my toddlers are spoiled), I think of it as not being wasteful and teaching as much. For the same reason I drive a Prius when I can afford to drive something much more emotionally exhilerating.

But I'm not trying to criticize others or their decisions. Just explaining how I see it.

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I agree with this. Sure, college is an unique, once-in-a-lifetime experience for most, but it makes very little sense to massively overpay for an out-of-state education that is rather sub-par.

150k for an Oregon education? No way in my family.

dupdadee;841906610 said:

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I agree with this. Sure, college is an unique, once-in-a-lifetime experience for most, but it makes very little sense to massively overpay for an out-of-state education that is rather sub-par.

150k for an Oregon education? No way in my family.

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When your children become seniors in high school, you'll do the math and find it's not a significant difference. Now that UC tuition, fees, room, board, books, travel, personal expenses, etc. are over $30,000 per year, you're looking at over 120k for a UC education - assuming your child can graduate in 4 years, a prospect that is becoming less commonplace with class closures.