On the positive side of things, Lance inspired me and now thousands of others to seriously take up cycling. A healthy alternative to driving which doesn't require another person, but is great fun with a bunch of guys. Watching Armstrong climb the Alps and the Pyrenees is inspiring regardless of what propelled him up those slopes. He was a true American hero during his time on the Tour and it is indeed sad to learn that not only he, but the vast majority of competitors were equally guilty of using banned drugs to improve performance.

Phantomfan;842065397 said:

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What have I said in this thread, or ever on this site that would cause you to say I have blind faith in any athlete?

How silly.

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You seem to be very personally hurt by this whole affair. I can only assume you have placed faith in Lance that you shouldn't have. That's what led me in that direction. Don't take it so seriously.

Each cheater is responsible for their own cheating--blaming the culture is a cop out. And yes, each cheater by cheating adds to and instills the very problem they say they were a victim to. It's BS.

Even playing field is just another lie and rationalization from repugnant people with no moral compass. Was every competitor given the same drug? Did Lance make sure his competitors all knew he was juiced and helped them do it too? Please.

Here is an idea: agree as a group on a set of rules and the follow them explicitly and in their intent. Anyone who doesn't agree with that in any walk of life, is part of the problem in this country.

blungld;842065553 said:

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Each cheater is responsible for their own cheating--blaming the culture is a cop out. And yes, each cheater by cheating adds to and instills the very problem they say they were a victim to. It's BS.

Even playing field is just another lie and rationalization from repugnant people with no moral compass. Was every competitor given the same drug? Did Lance make sure his competitors all knew he was juiced and helped them do it too? Please.

[COLOR="Blue"]Here is an idea: agree as a group on a set of rules and the follow them explicitly and in their intent. Anyone who doesn't agree with that in any walk of life, is part of the problem in this country.[/COLOR]

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Our country? Cycling is an International Sport in every way. Lance may have been inspired by Italian and French cyclists (Europeans in general) many years before he first stuck a syringe in his arm.

Individuals? We're talking about a "Culture of Cheating" here because it seems to be the part of the very fabric of that Sport.

Your advice would work just fine in 1930s Germany, but Cycling would have to start over in a more democratic fashion because it is very International in nature. Everybody would have to get on the same page. After that, the Governing bodies would need more clout and power to enforce the Draconian rules that would clean up the Sport and keep it clean.

Because of the International nature of the sport, something tells me a lot of petty politics (egos, bickering, nationalism, etc) are involved here and have been for a long time, leaving loopholes for certain Cyclists to take advantage of.

TouchedTheAxeIn82;842065392 said:

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Geez I thought I had read all the stories, but I just found a story on another of Lance's victims, his former mechanic Mike Anderson:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130117/mike-anderson-lance-armstrong/

Man, how many victims are there out there?

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Don't forget this brave gal who told Lance to shove it:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20130117/betsy-andreu-lance-armstrong/

Aussies move Armstrong's books to fiction.

blungld;842065553 said:

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Each cheater is responsible for their own cheating--blaming the culture is a cop out. And yes, each cheater by cheating adds to and instills the very problem they say they were a victim to. It's BS.

Even playing field is just another lie and rationalization from repugnant people with no moral compass. Was every competitor given the same drug? Did Lance make sure his competitors all knew he was juiced and helped them do it too? Please.

Here is an idea: agree as a group on a set of rules and the follow them explicitly and in their intent. Anyone who doesn't agree with that in any walk of life, is part of the problem in this country.

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A simplistic answer to a complex problem. The issue is chicken-and-egg. Do you blame the athletes for taking drugs when other athletes are doing it? Only the first one who did? Or do you blame the governing body for not doing enough to police the use of steroids? People who are relatively accepting of what Lance Armstrong and other cyclists have done generally blame the latter.

Also, traditionally athletes have always looked for any kind of competitive advantage, whether it is within the rules or not. It's up to the sport's officials to ensure that they don't cheat; generally it seems like they've done a poor job of it in cycling. Either that or the drugs are just becoming too advanced to be adequately policed, which is again a whole other problem that can't just be pinned on Lance.

The French are just butthurt because we've got way better drugs than them.

:patriot

I was talking about personal accountability & right and wrong--not protocols and politics of cycling. The mention of "this country" was a reference to the ways we accept and reward cheating/lying/egocentrism/greed (which are all closely related) here. You see it in every walk of life--sports is just a preeminent pace setter in our failing, highly hypocritical value system.

I don't think it is "simplistic" to have character and a moral compass. I blame every single person who cheats--and that encompasses each athlete and organizer.

He never got caught, never failed a drug test in the most heavily tested sport. He was sold out by his teammates.

diva1;842066050 said:

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He never got caught, never failed a drug test in the most heavily tested sport. He was sold out by his teammates.

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Yeah so much for all that "neither rain not sleet" crap

diva1;842066050 said:

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He never got caught, never failed a drug test in the most heavily tested sport. He was sold out by his teammates.

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Yup. Just think, if he had taken care of everyone instead of being an intimidating a--hole to them, they might have kept their mouths shut. He actually did get away with it, but coming back in '09 led to his downfall. Really what brought Lance down was being an a--hole to Floyd Landis. After Landis served his ban after getting caught at the '06 TdF, he was too old and washed up, and he couldn't get hired by any international team. So he just wanted to go out by doing a last ride in the '10 Tour of California. He asked Lance for help to get on the Radio Shack team, and I think he threatened to tell all if Lance wouldn't help him, and of course Lance thought he was all-powerful (and really he was, for many years) so of course he reacted like you would expect. Since Floyd's credibility was shot after lying about doping, Lance figured he was no threat, but his detailed descriptions of doping on the USPS team finally got the attention of the feds. While they ended up dropping the criminal case, they got a lot of testimony from people who were probably far more intimidated by a criminal investigation than if it were just WADA or USADA. When the news came out that George Hincapie testified and implicated Lance, I knew it was all over.

blungld;842066025 said:

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I don't think it is "simplistic" to have character and a moral compass. I blame every single person who cheats--and that encompasses each athlete and organizer.

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It's simplistic when it comes to a widespread problem like this one. Sure, people shouldn't cheat. But when the cheating is widespread and seems to come largely without penalty (Lance did win an awful lot of Tour De France titles before they found out), then the problem is more with the system than it is with any individual.

Personal responsibility is a great thing to teach . . . but you can't count on everyone to have it, which is why there need to be rules and enforcement.

Of course you are right but we are talking about two different things. You are talking about solving the problem and understanding the problem. I am talking about individual responsibility and the judgements we can make on those individuals who made the choices they did. I bristle heavily at the "everyone was doing it rationalization." I wouldn't accepts that from myself, my kids...let alone a total stranger, or worse, a person that swears up and down dishonestly and attacks others that actually do have values and tell the truth.

diva1;842066050 said:

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He never got caught, never failed a drug test in the most heavily tested sport. He was sold out by his teammates.

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Yup...and he just CONFESSED he used PEDs to the freakin' world. The guy didn't get caught and yet he's guilty as all fvck....because HE SAID SO.

He is a jerk and apparently everyone but you is aware of that.

diva1;842066050 said:

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He never got caught, never failed a drug test in the most heavily tested sport. He was sold out by his teammates.

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that was addressed in the interview. He actually did test positive, they kept samples from his earlier TDF titles and tested them for EPO later once a test was developed.

Additionally, they said he failed tests during the comeback TDF and he still claims to this day that he was clean at that time.

Also, Armstrong stated it was easy to not test positive because all testing occurred during races so he (and everyone else) could set up his usage so that there wouldn't be anything detectable by the time he was tested. If that's the most heavy testing around then that's pathetic.

Etchebeary;842065976 said:

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The French are just butthurt because we've got way better drugs than them.

:patriot

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It's been 28 years since the French have won the Tour de France.

Even an Englishman (last year) and and an American (LeMond) have won it more recently.

The Spanish are the ones that are good at doping, btw.