Bear Cass there are in fact at least 30-40 verses I can think of written 1900-2500 years ago that do not appear enlightened, and in fact some appear even hateful, in light of the ever changing morals of modern society. (Then again I can counter some of your examples - for instance, the fact The Bible speaks extensively of a female, Deborah - serving as a powerful and good Judge hundreds of years before Christ does appear astonishingly enlightened for that time period and culture)

The selected verses you reference do not mean that an entire work is without merit - literary or otherwise.

Nor does it mean that the work is fiction. If we were to get a panel of historians together, comprised equally of believers and non believers, I am quite certain they would all agree that portions of The Bible are non fiction. There undeniably were Amalekites, Phllistines, Assyrians, Babylonians, and Romans who fought with and often conquered what we think of today as Israel. There were Judges, Kings, battles, a Roman governor named Pilate, etc.- these facts are beyond question. I think most of those historians would agree there was a compassionate man named Jesus of Nazareth.

The real debate is did Jesus rise from the dead, did he raise Lazarus from the dead, was he the Messiah, was Jonah swallowed by a large fish and live to tell about it, did the sun stop as described in Joshua, etc.

This is not the time or place to debate these issues. You can take the last shot, and I will get back to discussing football, but if you want to politely debate these issues, I will be in California in November and would enjoy meeting you and discussing these matters. Personal message me if interested. Thanks for the lively discussion.

Well written post. PM sent.

The Vatican Diaries by John Thavis - fascinating, very readable - the Vatican is run about as well as the average fraternity house - insights into why Benedict recently decided "screw this mess" and walked away (and Thavis doesn't even delve into the financial scandal that everyone is trying to keep a lid on)

and another perfectly good discussion about the zombie apocalypse goes off the rails when religion gets invoked. If I had a nickel.........

I'm all for killing sorcerers. They are a royal pain in the neck

I think that if you like college sports (and especially if you are a Cal fan) you really MUST read (and I mean MUST read)

A Hope in the Unseen

http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Unseen-American-Odyssey-League/dp/0767901266

It is a hauntingly good book and it speaks to SO much in the American experience - Race, class, hopes, fears, alienation and triumph. I think it is especially good read considering that such a high proportion of the African Americans attending Cal are participants in D1 revenue sports. You owe it to yourself to read THIS book to gleen a bit of understanding what it must be like for at least some of them attending an elite institution.

Don't wait, order and read it today.

Two books by Warren St. John, both very different but both appealing to die-hard sportsfans: Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer, which may be the funniest book I have ever read, and Outcasts United, which will strike a chord with anyone who has a kid who played in a youth sports league of any kind.

Scooterville Gau;842110296 said:

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The Vatican Diaries by John Thavis - fascinating, very readable - the Vatican is run about as well as the average fraternity house - insights into why Benedict recently decided "screw this mess" and walked away (and Thavis doesn't even delve into the financial scandal that everyone is trying to keep a lid on)

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Hmmm, there is some smoke smoldering in this thread, where is my gas can?

GB54;842110382 said:

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I'm all for killing sorcerers. They are a royal pain in the neck

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Come on, really? That Harry Potter kid seems ok, no? And that Hermine is turning into a real cutie, now you would not want to burn her at the stake would you?

Bearclawz;842110485 said:

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Come on, really? That Harry Potter kid seems ok, no? And that Hermine is turning into a real cutie, now you would not want to burn her at the stake would you?

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No, in a truly just world anyone who plays Quidditch should be burned at the stake

goldenbearmb;842110445 said:

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Two books by Warren St. John, both very different but both appealing to die-hard sportsfans: Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer, which may be the funniest book I have ever read, and Outcasts United, which will strike a chord with anyone who has a kid who played in a youth sports league of any kind.

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Rammer Jammer is the best college football book. Hilarious

bear cass;842110212 said:

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Please clarify the context that justifies the hateful passages I listed. (I admit I missed that one post.)

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By using the word "hateful," you unfortunately assign very inaccurate inner motivations. Many today reject the personal, holy god of the bible, his will, his sovereignty, and the teleology (design) present throughout his creation (physically and metaphysically) and then mistakenly assume that those who do not verbally share that rejection really do deep inside hold to the same non-theistic foundational assumptions. Today, the possibility of this divine teleology is not so much consciously rejected but automatically absent from within modernity's and postmodernity's thinking process. So, differing conclusions on matters of ethics and metaphysics are reflexively assigned to low intelligence &/or "hatefulness" instead of to markedly different worldviews/metanarratives.

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." ---> the context is limited to local Christian churches with matters of faith and morals. God has a teleology, order, organization, purpose in the governance of his church.

"Do not allow a sorceress to live." ---> the context is limited to the uniquely theocratic nation of Israel and its civil and criminal law, which here revealed in shocking clarity the dangers and rebellion of occultic practices. God in that unique, temporary theocracy revealed his fearful holiness and the vast chasm between him and sinful humanity which can only be bridged through merciful, divine intervention.

"In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error." ---> the context is moral law against all sexual immorality regardless of culture. God's will as revealed in the bible has a teleology regarding the sexes and sexual relations.

"Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord." ---> see the context in the verses immediately following at Eph. 5:25-33; husbands are also required to love their wives as themselves, and to sacrifice themselves completely for their wives as Christ did for the church. So, no chauvinism is taught or allowed here but his teleology of male and female within matrimony involves some complementary but different roles which are vigorously opposed by today's unbending, radical egalitarianism.

"Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel." ---> part of the context is the mighty Roman Empire, which was economically dependent on its slave population and therefore violently protective of the institution of slavery. The New Testament is demanding but practical; it forbids violent revolutions (which there would only result in their own mass slaughters). More context is seen by carefully reading the immediate textual context of the quoted passage 1 Pet. 2:11-25, esp. 12, 15, 19-25; you will find there is an honorable and active purpose for the instructed submission to authority, which is transformation through example and self-sacrifice. Also a must-read in this regard is the short letter to Philemon in the New Testament; Philemon was a slave owner, and Onesimus was his runaway slave; you will see decidedly anti-slavery teaching in stark contrast to the corrupted moraes of that time.

bear cass;842110212 said:

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Please clarify the context that justifies the hateful passages I listed. (I admit I missed that one post.)

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bear cass, you keep trying to change the subject. You stated that the poster who suggested the Bible as a good book was engaging in proselytizing. When pushed further, you stated that the poster was saying that would-be readers should read the Bible to gain spiritual enlightenment. So, I will ask you once again to please clarify exactly how you know that the poster was saying that the would-be read should read the Bible to gain spiritual enlightenment. In doing so, please clarify how you know it was not some of the other reasons for reading the Bible listed by slotright20. Please also clarify the logical reasoning that leads you to conclude that such poster was trying to convert people. Please also clarify to what the poster was trying to convert would-be readers.

GB54;842110521 said:

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Rammer Jammer is the best college football book. Hilarious

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I third Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer. A fantastic read for all college football fans who want to know what the sport is like in the South.

socaltownie;842110388 said:

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I think that if you like college sports (and especially if you are a Cal fan) you really MUST read (and I mean MUST read)

A Hope in the Unseen

http://www.amazon.com/Hope-Unseen-American-Odyssey-League/dp/0767901266

It is a hauntingly good book and it speaks to SO much in the American experience - Race, class, hopes, fears, alienation and triumph. I think it is especially good read considering that such a high proportion of the African Americans attending Cal are participants in D1 revenue sports. You owe it to yourself to read THIS book to gleen a bit of understanding what it must be like for at least some of them attending an elite institution.

Don't wait, order and read it today.

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Looks interesting.

goldenbearmb;842110445 said:

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Two books by Warren St. John, both very different but both appealing to die-hard sportsfans: Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer, which may be the funniest book I have ever read, and Outcasts United, which will strike a chord with anyone who has a kid who played in a youth sports league of any kind.

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I bought and started reading Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer over the weekend. Thanks for a great recommendation. It's been a fun read thus far. I'm about 100 pages in.

I spent the weekend of the Alabama/Tennessee game in Birmingham last year on business and as a northerner found it to be a surreal experience as the whole city and state shuts down on game weekends.

Back in the 70s I read "Pimp: The Story of My Life" by Iceberg Slim, it was an interesting book. Amazon still carries it.

bar20;842112457 said:

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Back in the 70s I read "Pimp: The Story of My Life" by Iceberg Slim, it was an interesting book. Amazon still carries it.

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Any relation to Fillmore Slim? I used to see him out in about in SF.

"A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson was recommended by 75Bear, Bearclawz, and 89Bear. With so many endorsements I gave it a go. Thanks guys. It was a very good read. I can recommend this book to anyone.

However, I recently read another book about through hiking that I liked better-"Wild. From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail" by Cheryl Strayed. The 26 year old, heroin using, with no backpacking experience Strayed walked alone for 1,100 miles on the Pacific Crest Trail from California to Washington. The book details both her physical challenges and self-discovery. It is a fantastic book. If you liked a Walk in the Woods you will eat this book up as well.

Went to Bama/Auburn game in T-town a couple years ago. Insane. Another really ball book is "Every Game a Season" by Brian Curtis And "The Eighty Yard Run" by Theron Hopkins. Check them out on Amazon.

NYCGOBEARS;842112421 said:

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I bought and started reading Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer over the weekend. Thanks for a great recommendation. It's been a fun read thus far. I'm about 100 pages in.

I spent the weekend of the Alabama/Tennessee game in Birmingham last year on business and as a northerner found it to be a surreal experience as the whole city and state shuts down on game weekends.

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In commemoration of Philip Roths "retirement," gotta give some love to Portnoys Complaint.

The Hitman's Guide to Housecleaning

by Hallgrmur Helgason

With some 66 hits under his belt, Tomislav Bokić, or Toxic, has a flawless record as hitman for the Croatian mafia in New York. That is, until he kills the wrong guy and is forced to flee the States, leaving behind the life he knows and loves. Suddenly, he finds himself on a plane hurtling toward Reykjavk, Iceland, disguised as an American televangelist named Father Friendly. With no means of escape from this island devoid of gun shops, this island with absolutely no tradition for contract killing, he is forced to come to terms with his bloody past and reevaluate his future, to tragicomic effect. The Hitman's Guide to Housecleaning is a story of mistaken identity, human destiny, and the forces of good and evil present within us all.

75bear;842107553 said:

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I have to agree also- A Walk In The Woods is great- I'm overdue for a rereading.

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As backpacker of some experience, I must confess he had me laughing my butt off. Hilarious.

A River Runs Through It...Quite possibly my favorite 100 pages of all time. Short, but still incredible. I think totally under appreciated as a piece of American Literature.

slotright20;842110241 said:

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Bear Cass there are in fact at least 30-40 verses I can think of written 1900-2500 years ago that do not appear enlightened, and in fact some appear even hateful, in light of the ever changing morals of modern society.


This is not the time or place to debate these issues. You can take the last shot, and I will get back to discussing football, but if you want to politely debate these issues, I will be in California in November and would enjoy meeting you and discussing these matters. Personal message me if interested. Thanks for the lively discussion.

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Well said. And very thoughtful.

Aggie Bear;842114813 said:

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A River Runs Through It...Quite possibly my favorite 100 pages of all time. Short, but still incredible. I think totally under appreciated as a piece of American Literature.

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Love the book and the movie.

Probably already mentioned but....
The Art of Fielding
1Q84 & anything else by murakami
Anything by Neal Stephenson (especially his longer books which require patience)

toobin's "The Oath"

others:

McMillan, "Paris, 1919" sets forth the real reasons WW2 was probably inevitable,

also:
"The Swerve"

loved "the art of fielding." as far as murakami goes, i might suggest something a bit more accessible before wandering into his less linear work. "norwegian wood" is probably a good place to start with him.

re: contemporary fiction, if anyone is interested in some excellent Nintendo/Sega nostalgia, i strongly recommend "ready player one," it was very enjoyable.

re: fantasy, if anyone wants to try something very entertaining from the fantasy genre, i recommend "the name of the wind" by patrick rothfuss. this is a trilogy, the third book is not yet published, but it is an unusually popular series for fantasy, and the author rothfuss has the ability to transcend genre definitions, IMO, and move into the mainstream with his fantasy, a la george martin of GoT fame.

wcbears;842114962 said:

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Probably already mentioned but....
The Art of Fielding
1Q84 & anything else by murakami
Anything by Neal Stephenson (especially his longer books which require patience)

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- if BC chooses to do this, probably best that you two continue this conversation over PM.

GoldenBearofCalifornia;842110598 said:

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bear cass, you keep trying to change the subject. You stated that the poster who suggested the Bible as a good book was engaging in proselytizing. When pushed further, you stated that the poster was saying that would-be readers should read the Bible to gain spiritual enlightenment. So, I will ask you once again to please clarify exactly how you know that the poster was saying that the would-be read should read the Bible to gain spiritual enlightenment. In doing so, please clarify how you know it was not some of the other reasons for reading the Bible listed by slotright20. Please also clarify the logical reasoning that leads you to conclude that such poster was trying to convert people. Please also clarify to what the poster was trying to convert would-be readers.

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Someone on this thread suggested Cloud Atlas. Thank you! I'm listening to it on AudibleBooks and loving it.

Norwegian Wood by Murakami has sold more copies by far than his other books and made him a superstar in Japan. But it is a teenage romance and best suited for Bieber fans. The movie is available for streaming on Netflix and is unwatchable (I tried). In 1Q84 and Kafka on the Shore, Murakami utilizes a lot of mystical imagery. Like an acid trip, these novels will jar your perception of reality.

for beginer golfers:

The Complete Golfer by Harry Vardon
goes in depth on the fundamentals of golf. almost every other book ive read builds upon what vardon first talks about.

Golf Facts for Young People by Frances Oiumet
can pick up a lot of good pointers. part i liked the most is his mental approach which is to have fun and respect the game so that your playing partner can have fun as well

Secrets of the Short Game by Phil Mickelson
self explanatory. him and tiger are the best short game players out there.

gobears725;842115109 said:

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for beginer golfers:

The Complete Golfer by Harry Vardon
goes in depth on the fundamentals of golf. almost every other book ive read builds upon what vardon first talks about.

Golf Facts for Young People by Frances Oiumet
can pick up a lot of good pointers. part i liked the most is his mental approach which is to have fun and respect the game so that your playing partner can have fun as well

Secrets of the Short Game by Phil Mickelson
self explanatory. him and tiger are the best short game players out there.

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gobears75, if you can track down a collection of Bernard Darwin's writing as the golf columnist for The Times (London). Some of the best golf writing of all time.

One article was about a player practicing for his club championship when he gets hit with a case of the shanks. He mentally falls apart all the while trying to hit practice shots. Funniest piece on golf I've ever read.

haha will do, also for anyone out there, you may be tempted to read books on Tiger Woods and while you may read them, it would be a mistake i feel to follow much of what he says. Tiger is a physical freak and can practice longer than almost every person, most of us cannot do what tiger can and should not attempt it. also in terms of his mentality, hes intense and hyping up the intensity for 95% of people is probably not a good thing.

Entire chapters dedicated to Bullitt, Dirty Harry, Deliverance, The Getaway, etc.

*JUST DECIDED TO RESURRECT THIS 10 YEAR OLD THREAD AND HAVING NO IDEA WHAT BOARD IT WOULD END UP ON. NO OT BOARD IN 2013, SO PLEASE MOVE THREAD TO OFF TOPIC BOARD. THANKS