Cal Panda Bear;842118374 said:

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Let me quote OskiMD from the other thread



7 receivers were drafted ahead of KA. The "rumor" of his stock dropping because of character issues ended up being true.

Throughout KA's time here at Cal, there have been NUMEROUS rumors about his character. If you want to believe he is an angel and we should all bow down to him, be my guest.

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40 time and injury concerns dropped Keenan's stock far more than "character" or a drug test that San Diego denies happened.

petalumabear;842117958 said:

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Wait! Did I miss it when it happened?
Has hell really frozen over?
:rollinglaugh: ZM getting drafted. Yeah right.

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With his eligiility up in June, perhaps he should enlist in the military now rather than wait to be drafted.

Rushinbear;842118298 said:

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What makes a guy a Golden Bear and worthy of our respect?

Is it enough that he played on the team and nothing more?

Must he have graduated or tried his best to graduate or have been on track to graduate?

What if he disrespected us or Cal by his on- and off-field behavior?

Does he show any respect for our traditions and what Cal means to us?

These are honest questions. The answers are not cut and dried, but for me the overall picture has to be more than just minutes on the field.

I don't feel obligated to give respect to every player who ever wore a Cal uniform. There are at least a few with whom I am not proud to be associated by their having attended Cal.

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No one has to respect anyone just for playing on the football team. This 'respect' thing is really just a way to dislike a player because of their performance without saying that it's because of their performance, though. Marshawn had rumors of domestic abuse around the draft, he's had a hit-and-run, and a few other run-ins with the law and has generally done more things to embarrass Cal alums than KA or ZM. The team was good when he was here, though and he scored a lot of TD's, so we're quick to forgive and forget. Sure people get upset when he does those things, but who would win in a popularity poll between ML and ZM? Exactly.

So I'll answer your question with another question: Are we supposed to respect Cal alums generally, in the sense that we don't sh*t all over them every chance we get? Most of them are average, college-educated people who haven't done anything of note. ZM has passed for thousands of yards in the PAC-12, which probably means that he's in a higher percentile as a QB than most posters on this board are at what they do. Why do we treat him so differently from the rest of our alums?

Cal Panda Bear;842118374 said:

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Let me quote OskiMD from the other thread

7 receivers were drafted ahead of KA. The "rumor" of his stock dropping because of character issues ended up being true.

Throughout KA's time here at Cal, there have been NUMEROUS rumors about his character. If you want to believe he is an angel and we should all bow down to him, be my guest.

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You are actually citing OskiMD as your source????

The reported failed drug test was refuted by the president of the combine 11 days ago. Allen's agent refuted it. ESPN issued a retraction the VERY next day, that was 10 days ago. The San Diego Chargers confirmed that the rumor was false. The rumor of a diluted urine sample was FALSE. The FACT is that Keenan Allen PASSED his drug test. That is the FACT.

You are persisting in believing(?) and spreading a FALSE rumor about someone else in public when the rumor has been shown to be false.

berk18;842118388 said:

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No one has to respect anyone just for playing on the football team. This 'respect' thing is really just a way to dislike a player because of their performance without saying that it's because of their performance, though. Marshawn had rumors of domestic abuse around the draft, he's had a hit-and-run, and a few other run-ins with the law and has generally done more things to embarrass Cal alums than KA or ZM. The team was good when he was here, though and he scored a lot of TD's, so we're quick to forgive and forget. Sure people get upset when he does those things, but who would win in a popularity poll between ML and ZM? Exactly.

So I'll answer your question with another question: Are we supposed to respect Cal alums generally, in the sense that we don't sh*t all over them every chance we get? Most of them are average, college-educated people who haven't done anything of note. ZM has passed for thousands of yards in the PAC-12, which probably means that he's in a higher percentile as a QB than most posters on this board are at what they do. Why do we treat him so differently from the rest of our alums?

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Very well said. Thank you.

calumnus;842118433 said:

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You are actually citing OskiMD as your source????

The reported failed drug test was refuted by the president of the combine 11 days ago. Allen's agent refuted it. ESPN issued a retraction the VERY next day, that was 10 days ago. The San Diego Chargers confirmed that the rumor was false. The rumor of a diluted urine sample was FALSE. The FACT is that Keenan Allen PASSED his drug test. That is the FACT.

You are persisting in believing(?) and spreading a FALSE rumor about someone else in public when the rumor has been shown to be false.

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I found the ignore feature to be very handy relating to this panda-rer long ago!

Lets get one thing straight: The failed drug test, first reported and then refuted by ESPN, has very little to do with the character issues which existed prior to the rumors about a failed drug test. The character issues were based on the way Keenan interviewed and to this date have not been refuted.

How much those character issues added to the already existing issue with his injury is pure speculation either way. What is not speculation is what some of us saw first hand as fans in the stands.

I am a long time and big time Cal fan and have great respect for the players, but there is a big gulf between the kind of character Marvin Jones is and the kind of character Keenan Allen is. M. Jones exhibited class on the field but, without going into details, some of what I saw from KA turned me off. I didn't want to see those things, but there they were. Those experiences make it easier to believe reports assailing Keenan's character.

But that doesn't mean those things should be blown out of proportion or should imply KA is somehow incapable of being a good influence. In fact I fully expect him to have a successful career on and off the field.

In the end, KAs problems, whatever they may or may not be, may stem from caring too much or trying too hard rather than some degenerate character flaw. Yet folks on both sides each have legitimate reasons for their feelings about KA. Hopefully we all move forward into the next phase where Cal becomes successful without him and he becomes successful without us. And maybe some day we can get along instead of hassling each other for having legitimate feelings and beliefs.

calumnus;842118433 said:

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You are actually citing OskiMD as your source????

The reported failed drug test was refuted by the president of the combine 11 days ago. Allen's agent refuted it. ESPN issued a retraction the VERY next day, that was 10 days ago. The San Diego Chargers confirmed that the rumor was false. The rumor of a diluted urine sample was FALSE. The FACT is that Keenan Allen PASSED his drug test. That is the FACT.

You are persisting in believing(?) and spreading a FALSE rumor about someone else in public when the rumor has been shown to be false.

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No, I was recycling OskiMD's response.

Whether or not the drug test was true or not, there are still a handful of other rumors about KA and his character, which no one has come out and refuted. And you know why I can believe them to a certain extent.

You are making it seem like we are on a crusade to bring KA down. We are not. Most of the people here (or at least I am) who are "anti-KA" in your eyes are simply saying that just because KA was a star for our team doesnt mean that he is not open to criticism.

It's not like I actively hate KA so much that I want to see him fail. No one is saying the guy is a bad player or person. Matter of fact, I ironically have a #21 jersey. He's a beast on the field.

It's that, like players from other schools, he is open to criticism for his supposed off-the-field reputation.

All that being said, Im sure things will work out for him in SD and he will represent Cal in a good light.

I dont really care to continue this conversation as it really doesnt matter anymore.

Is KA open to criticim if he pregame announces himself as somewhere other than Cal? What if he says, "Cal - Berkeley"? I need to know. The day of reckoning is coming.

dajo9;842118550 said:

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Is KA open to criticim if he pregame announces himself as somewhere other than Cal? What if he says, "Cal - Berkeley"? I need to know. The day of reckoning is coming.

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No. I thought that was stupid for Cal fans to criticize Desean for.

Cal Panda Bear;842118552 said:

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No. I thought that was stupid for Cal fans to criticize Desean for.

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Or Aaron Rodgers for naming Butte College. Oh, wait, Cal fans only criticized Desean?

That was because Desean was rumored to have "character issues." Oh wait, in the press the Niners cited Rodgers' "character issues" in his interviews as the main reason they passed on him? Never mind. Desean bad, Aaron good no matter what. If teams, even the Niners, say in the press that Rodgers' had "character issues," they are wrong. We know that. However, if it is reported that an anonymous scout says he heard that Allen similarly didn't interview well, then it MUST be true that Allen has character issues. That is called "confirmation bias."

calumnus;842118555 said:

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Or Aaron Rodgers for naming Butte College. Oh, wait, Cal fans only criticized Desean?

That was because Desean was rumored to have "character issues." Oh wait, in the press the Niners cited Rodgers' "character issues" in his interviews as the main reason they passed on him? Never mind. Desean bad, Aaron good no matter what. If teams, even the Niners, say in the press that Rodgers' had "character issues," they are wrong. We know that. However, if it is reported that an anonymous scout says he heard that Allen similarly didn't interview well, then it MUST be true that Allen has character issues. That is called "confirmation bias."

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I dont think I need to explain to you why Rodgers and KA are two different stories.

And last I checked, the 20 or so teams that passed up on Rodgers did so because of lack of need. Only the Niners dropped him because of character issues (and even then, that was the FIRST and ONLY time we heard a rumor about his character issues). KA went from being the #1/#2 WR to the #8 WR. Sure, speed + injury concerns couldve been a factor but those were already concerns before his Pro-day.

What couldve possibly dropped him from being the #1/#2 receiver to the #8 receiver?

All of this is stupid anyways. Let's just agree to disagree. We'll see how KA does as a Charger and presents himself on and off the field.

StillNoStanfurdium;842117932 said:

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Can you imagine if San Diego drafted or even signed as an UFA Maynard? The threads that would erupt...

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In what position. In what sport.

calumnus;842118555 said:

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Or Aaron Rodgers for naming Butte College. Oh, wait, Cal fans only criticized Desean?

That was because Desean was rumored to have "character issues." Oh wait, in the press the Niners cited Rodgers' "character issues" in his interviews as the main reason they passed on him? Never mind. Desean bad, Aaron good no matter what. If teams, even the Niners, say in the press that Rodgers' had "character issues," they are wrong. We know that. However, if it is reported that an anonymous scout says he heard that Allen similarly didn't interview well, then it MUST be true that Allen has character issues. That is called "confirmation bias."

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<troll><racebaiting>
Rodgers is white and Desean is black. Clearly Cal fans are waicist.
</racebaiting></troll>

calumnus;842118555 said:

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Or Aaron Rodgers for naming Butte College. Oh, wait, Cal fans only criticized Desean?

That was because Desean was rumored to have "character issues." Oh wait, in the press the Niners cited Rodgers' "character issues" in his interviews as the main reason they passed on him? Never mind. Desean bad, Aaron good no matter what. If teams, even the Niners, say in the press that Rodgers' had "character issues," they are wrong. We know that. However, if it is reported that an anonymous scout says he heard that Allen similarly didn't interview well, then it MUST be true that Allen has character issues. That is called "confirmation bias."

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You're right about confirmation bias. But it affects you too. Everything confirms your belief that players like KA are being treated unfairly and hence the need to defend them on this board.

Obviously there is a wide disparity in the way folks here have experienced KA. No one point of view is more valid than another. And all of us are looking for ways to confirm our feelings, especially since they are under attack. If we all accepted our differences and agreed to disagree it would lessen the confirmation bias because it would lessen the need to be confirmed.

If all you said was..."I disagree about KA and it saddens me when I read negative things about him because I really like him"... and left it at that, instead of attacking the poster, we could have ended this a long time ago.

Let me ask you, calumnus, why would a Cal fan invent reasons to be negative about a player and then post those reasons on the board?
Do you think fans really want to have a negative experience? Do you think they want to come down on a player? Are there circumstances under which a player is open to criticism? Do those circumstances always have to be black and white issues like crime or breaking rules? Or can grey areas be a legitimate catalyst for public debate?

Sports-talk on the radio is full of player trashing both locally and nationally, so do you really think folks here are so out of the ordinary when they question a player's character?

It would really help me to know where you stand on this. Give us the principals that you want me to use when posting, because I simply don't understand what you want. I get that you don't want negative rumors spread about players. But the nature of the internet is to re-report things that are going on in the news. Such practices inevitably spread those stories. I am committed to not generating negative stories or rumors about players other than reporting stuff that we have collectively observed on the field. But media created stories are fair game IMHO.

Have you filed a complaint against ESPN? It seems to me that they are the real culprit.

calumnus;842118555 said:

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Or Aaron Rodgers for naming Butte College. Oh, wait, Cal fans only criticized Desean?

That was because Desean was rumored to have "character issues." Oh wait, in the press the Niners cited Rodgers' "character issues" in his interviews as the main reason they passed on him? Never mind. Desean bad, Aaron good no matter what. If teams, even the Niners, say in the press that Rodgers' had "character issues," they are wrong. We know that. However, if it is reported that an anonymous scout says he heard that Allen similarly didn't interview well, then it MUST be true that Allen has character issues. That is called "confirmation bias."

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People just don't want to admit you are right. For some reason KA has become the fall guy for the end of the end of the Tedford era in the same way that Desean was the fall guy for the beginning of the end of the Tedford era. KA will become a fan favorite in San Diego and all these character issues that have been alleged will mysteriously be no more. On the scale of WR primadonna-ism, KA is pretty low.

Unit2Sucks;842118748 said:

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People just don't want to admit you are right. For some reason KA has become the fall guy for the end of the end of the Tedford era in the same way that Desean was the fall guy for the beginning of the end of the Tedford era. KA will become a fan favorite in San Diego and all these character issues that have been alleged will mysteriously be no more. On the scale of WR primadonna-ism, KA is pretty low.

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As long as you don't read the posts of others, you will have to resort to wild theories rather than the real reasons for the negativity people have towards KA.

Some of it goes to the brother issue and was a concern long before JT was even on the hot seat. Once Maynard won the job over Bridgford in 2011, rumours started. But there were on field issues as well.

There is no need to find a scapegoat for the JT era, since JT himself has been fired. Most on this board acknowledge that JT, injuries and the bad OL were the reason we went 3-9 last year. So they are clearly 2 separate issues.

It sounds like you have an issue respecting a point of view that is different. Because there is no right or wrong here. I'm sure calumnus is accurately reflecting his experience. But so are others.

heartofthebear;842118768 said:

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It sounds like you have an issue respecting a point of view that is different. Because there is no right or wrong here. I'm sure calumnus is accurately reflecting his experience. But so are others.

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Sorry but I don't agree that the negativity toward KA is reflective of his behavior, character or attitude. I think it has everything to do with the team's success (or lack thereof). There was nothing but love for KA for his first two years here and for some reason all of a sudden he became a bad apple. Arrested for DUI? Nope. Cam Jordan was but he still stayed in our good graces. Please tell me exactly what it was that KA has done that caused this to happen.

And I don't want to hear that it's because he failed a drug test (which he didn't). That's something that 'hatters' will latch onto but it's not the reason he's getting all the hate here. KA gave 100% between the lines for us for 3 years and I agree with Calumnus that he's unfairly taking the fall and that people aren't being honest about why that is.

Unit2Sucks;842118785 said:

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Sorry but I don't agree that the negativity toward KA is reflective of his behavior, character or attitude. I think it has everything to do with the team's success (or lack thereof). There was nothing but love for KA for his first two years here and for some reason all of a sudden he became a bad apple. Arrested for DUI? Nope. Cam Jordan was but he still stayed in our good graces. Please tell me exactly what it was that KA has done that caused this to happen.

And I don't want to hear that it's because he failed a drug test (which he didn't). That's something that 'hatters' will latch onto but it's not the reason he's getting all the hate here. KA gave 100% between the lines for us for 3 years and I agree with Calumnus that he's unfairly taking the fall and that people aren't being honest about why that is.

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I can only speak for myself and I have. Read my posts. Where's the hate? Who has posted hateful things? Who has questioned his committment on the field? The fact that he played hurt speaks to his on field committment. But if he hid the injury it may not speak well to his over-all character and would be consistent with a self-centeredness. Listen, I don't see that folks are slamming him because they are questioning his character. I think he's a bit narcissistic and so, if I'm an NFL scout or executive, I'm going to try to find out if he's really a team player. That's my assessment from the immature way that he behaved at times and on the sidelines. In other words, it seems that he takes himself too seriously. It's an assessment based on what I observed and revelations about how much effort he gave are not inconsistent with that. I think he'll have a great career as much of this may have to do with his desire to get to the NFL. Now that he is there, hopefully he'll relax and be the person he is.

The problem I have with calumnus is that he seems to often defend the stars of the team. And he uses his extensive history with Cal players to make it seem like he is more credible. To me, I don't have a problem if one of our fellow posters on BI chooses to view one of players in less than Godlike ways. We are all human. Nobody is better than anybody else. Nobody owes anybody anything. LOL, if you think the players are playing primarily for us. They are playing for their love of the game, the school and their careers. I contribute to the players by attending games and cheering and giving money to Cal. Fans are expected to comport themselves a certain way at games. So are players. If a player isn't comporting himself well, it doesn't surprise me when it ends up on this board.

You act like the comments about KA come out of a vacuum. Go look at the tape of the Nevada game and watch as KA gets in the face of an official after he was legitimately flagged. The official should have thrown him out of the game as KA bumped him. I'm sure every other member of BI who is "slamming" KA can point you to specific instances that can back up their claims.

Again, I can only speak for myself when I say that my feelings about Lynch did change when he started getting into trouble. And issues with other players such as Jordan I was not aware of. I only joined the board after the KA/ZM era began. So many of the players and their issues were long gone before I came on board.

To prove that my feelings are not based on performance. Let me tell you of one current player that I don't like, so far. I have no idea how Cal is going to do with him. But so far I don't really like him. The reason for my feeling is that I don't think he is very professional on the field. He is 5 star recruit Viliami Moala. I think he is either extremely over-rated as he is entering his junior year and is not even really in shape, or is really undisciplined. Does this make me prejudiced? Am I trying to blame him for our record in 2013? NO! I just don't like what I'm seeing. So far he has not played that well and yet he makes a big production, drawing attention to himself, when he does finally make a play. So I suppose this is a slam, because maybe he is working his ass off. Or maybe he's a really great guy. Or...whatever. I am not slamming him but simply stating what I have seen. It was the same with KA and ZM. Some people like to draw attention to themselves. But if you are not that good and/or the team as a whole sucks it looks stupid and reflects poorly on the team. That is a character issue. It's called narcissism. It is not healthy on the team and the NFL team will make every attempt to avoid these type of players because it is very immature and impacts the team focus. If I see different things from Moala the next 2 years, my opinion will change accordingly.

StillNoStanfurdium;842118376 said:

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40 time and injury concerns dropped Keenan's stock far more than "character" or a drug test that San Diego denies happened.

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This is just as much speculation as anything else. Several players dropped way below their projected spots while healthy. The most pronounced case is Tyler Bray QB of Tennessee.

Bray was projected to go as high as RD #2 and no lower than #4. He was healthy but his character was the issue. He ended up not being drafted but signed with, I believe, KC.

Bray is just one of countless examples of players dropping considerably because of character issues. Character does not necessary refer to being a bad person or a "cancer". It can simply mean that the player is not "tough" mentally.

As for KA, not only had the drug test issue been cleared by the time of the draft, but also the injury issue. Mike Mayock and others who were at KA's work out, said that the injury did not keep him from still being one of the top 3 WRs in the draft.

It would be stupid to the point of being fired for an NFL draft executive to pass on KA because of an injury that they knew was going to clear up within weeks, as one NFL level trainer who was working with KA attested to. It is possible, however, that some NFL folks felt that he is not fast enough, even when healthy. In any case, none of the events leading up to KA's eventually selection at #76 either confirm or adequately refute the report that KA did not interview well and that some felt he was "big timing" them. And that character was a significant factor in where KA eventually was selected.

berk18;842118388 said:

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No one has to respect anyone just for playing on the football team. This 'respect' thing is really just a way to dislike a player because of their performance without saying that it's because of their performance, though. Marshawn had rumors of domestic abuse around the draft, he's had a hit-and-run, and a few other run-ins with the law and has generally done more things to embarrass Cal alums than KA or ZM. The team was good when he was here, though and he scored a lot of TD's, so we're quick to forgive and forget. Sure people get upset when he does those things, but who would win in a popularity poll between ML and ZM? Exactly.

So I'll answer your question with another question: Are we supposed to respect Cal alums generally, in the sense that we don't sh*t all over them every chance we get? Most of them are average, college-educated people who haven't done anything of note. ZM has passed for thousands of yards in the PAC-12, which probably means that he's in a higher percentile as a QB than most posters on this board are at what they do. Why do we treat him so differently from the rest of our alums?

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Because he spit in our eye when we gave him more than every possible chance to act like a Golden Bear. And, I must admit, because he was the embodiment of our embarassment over a coach that had lost it and made a deal with the devil. Our feelings about it will diminish over time, but occasional reminders will drag it out, as this one has.

Rushinbear;842119152 said:

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Because he spit in our eye when we gave him more than every possible chance to act like a Golden Bear. And, I must admit, because he was the embodiment of our embarassment over a coach that had lost it and made a deal with the devil. Our feelings about it will diminish over time, but occasional reminders will drag it out, as this one has.

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How did he spit in our eye?

heartofthebear;842118930 said:

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This is just as much speculation as anything else. Several players dropped way below their projected spots while healthy. The most pronounced case is Tyler Bray QB of Tennessee.

Bray was projected to go as high as RD #2 and no lower than #4. He was healthy but his character was the issue. He ended up not being drafted but signed with, I believe, KC.

Bray is just one of countless examples of players dropping considerably because of character issues. Character does not necessary refer to being a bad person or a "cancer". It can simply mean that the player is not "tough" mentally.

As for KA, not only had the drug test issue been cleared by the time of the draft, but also the injury issue. Mike Mayock and others who were at KA's work out, said that the injury did not keep him from still being one of the top 3 WRs in the draft.

It would be stupid to the point of being fired for an NFL draft executive to pass on KA because of an injury that they knew was going to clear up within weeks, as one NFL level trainer who was working with KA attested to. It is possible, however, that some NFL folks felt that he is not fast enough, even when healthy. In any case, none of the events leading up to KA's eventually selection at #76 either confirm or adequately refute the report that KA did not interview well and that some felt he was "big timing" them. And that character was a significant factor in where KA eventually was selected.

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History shows that a team will overlook character issues if the ability/skill is unquestionably there. Just look at Mathieu being drafted in the 2nd round still. Despite what Mayock said about him not doubting Keenan's abilities, even he dropped him in his mock drafts and rankings. Go ahead and check out the mocks and WR rankings after Keenan's 40 and workout. Most had him falling below Austin, Patterson, Hunter, Woods, and Hopkins and that's what ended up happening.

Bray's a bad example since he was honestly never that highly touted as a QB for the pros and his character issues were pretty severe. Da'rick Rogers might be a better example to point at in terms of character concerns dropping WR stock.

heartofthebear;842118810 said:

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I can only speak for myself and I have. Read my posts. Where's the hate? Who has posted hateful things? Who has questioned his committment on the field? The fact that he played hurt speaks to his on field committment. But if he hid the injury it may not speak well to his over-all character and would be consistent with a self-centeredness. Listen, I don't see that folks are slamming him because they are questioning his character. I think he's a bit narcissistic and so, if I'm an NFL scout or executive, I'm going to try to find out if he's really a team player. That's my assessment from the immature way that he behaved at times and on the sidelines. In other words, it seems that he takes himself too seriously. It's an assessment based on what I observed and revelations about how much effort he gave are not inconsistent with that. I think he'll have a great career as much of this may have to do with his desire to get to the NFL. Now that he is there, hopefully he'll relax and be the person he is.

The problem I have with calumnus is that he seems to often defend the stars of the team. And he uses his extensive history with Cal players to make it seem like he is more credible. To me, I don't have a problem if one of our fellow posters on BI chooses to view one of players in less than Godlike ways. We are all human. Nobody is better than anybody else. Nobody owes anybody anything. LOL, if you think the players are playing primarily for us. They are playing for their love of the game, the school and their careers. I contribute to the players by attending games and cheering and giving money to Cal. Fans are expected to comport themselves a certain way at games. So are players. If a player isn't comporting himself well, it doesn't surprise me when it ends up on this board.

You act like the comments about KA come out of a vacuum. Go look at the tape of the Nevada game and watch as KA gets in the face of an official after he was legitimately flagged. The official should have thrown him out of the game as KA bumped him. I'm sure every other member of BI who is "slamming" KA can point you to specific instances that can back up their claims.

Again, I can only speak for myself when I say that my feelings about Lynch did change when he started getting into trouble. And issues with other players such as Jordan I was not aware of. I only joined the board after the KA/ZM era began. So many of the players and their issues were long gone before I came on board.

To prove that my feelings are not based on performance. Let me tell you of one current player that I don't like, so far. I have no idea how Cal is going to do with him. But so far I don't really like him. The reason for my feeling is that I don't think he is very professional on the field. He is 5 star recruit Viliami Moala. I think he is either extremely over-rated as he is entering his junior year and is not even really in shape, or is really undisciplined. Does this make me prejudiced? Am I trying to blame him for our record in 2013? NO! I just don't like what I'm seeing. So far he has not played that well and yet he makes a big production, drawing attention to himself, when he does finally make a play. So I suppose this is a slam, because maybe he is working his ass off. Or maybe he's a really great guy. Or...whatever. I am not slamming him but simply stating what I have seen. It was the same with KA and ZM. Some people like to draw attention to themselves. But if you are not that good and/or the team as a whole sucks it looks stupid and reflects poorly on the team. That is a character issue. It's called narcissism. It is not healthy on the team and the NFL team will make every attempt to avoid these type of players because it is very immature and impacts the team focus. If I see different things from Moala the next 2 years, my opinion will change accordingly.

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Are you seriously saying that your main point of contention is that a player got angry with a call that he didn't think should've gone against him? Lord knows you must hate most players in all professional sports.

This thread is super silly.

StillNoStanfurdium;842119188 said:

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Are you seriously saying that your main point of contention is that a player got angry with a call that he didn't think should've gone against him? Lord knows you must hate most players in all professional sports.

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I don't think heart is saying that is his "main" point of contention.....he has listed several behavioral issues at different times...he highlighted this one issue in this post but has listed other issues before. I think one anyone can have one or two issues that don't point to a pattern....with KA, I'm not sure if there is anything there as opposed to ZM who had multiple behaviors that pointed to patterns that to me, weren't flattering at times.

heartofthebear;842118744 said:

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Let me ask you, calumnus, why would a Cal fan invent reasons to be negative about a player and then post those reasons on the board?
Do you think fans really want to have a negative experience? Do you think they want to come down on a player? Are there circumstances under which a player is open to criticism? Do those circumstances always have to be black and white issues like crime or breaking rules? Or can grey areas be a legitimate catalyst for public debate?

Sports-talk on the radio is full of player trashing both locally and nationally, so do you really think folks here are so out of the ordinary when they question a player's character?

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Not calumnus, but I'm at least partially involved in the dialogue, so here goes: Fans don't want a negative experience, but when their team doesn't do as well as they'd like they want to be the first to explain why things went wrong. Some people will grab onto anything when they vent. It's a frustration thing. You're right that people here aren't out of the ordinary. That's why this is so easy to spot. The treatment of Longshore was just as bitter as the treatment of Maynard, and he didn't have a brother or character issues, so you'll have to forgive people who've been here for a while. We see the same thing over and over and over (and on other teams' boards), and it really doesn't matter what the player is actually like.

Players are certainly open to criticism. Fortunately, when a player breaks the law or does something that actually embarrasses the university, that information comes out. If a player does a lot of community service or whatever, he gets praised. Most players (and most Cal students generally) just kind of float along in the middle character-wise, but we shouldn't blast them because of that. Unless we have real information about bad behavior, everything's based on shadows and that's when confirmation bias really becomes problematic. Can you find anyone who's personally interacted with KA and found him disrespectful? I can find show you several people claiming the opposite. Has he ever said anything stupid on twitter, like some of our players? There are actually lots of places where bad character can come out. Did it for KA? Personally, I think that the way a player interacts with people in real life says more about their character than what we see from 50 rows up. If KA was doing stuff on the field that was out of the ordinary he must have gotten a lot of penalties, right? This actually reminds me of another fan favorite: Zack Follett head-butted a defenseless, helmetless player on national television, but we won 9 games his last year and he got a lot of sacks, so people here were saying that he should be a coach for us. KA, on the other hand, has character issues. I wonder why?

berk18;842119217 said:

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Not calumnus, but I'm at least partially involved in the dialogue, so here goes: Fans don't want a negative experience, but when their team doesn't do as well as they'd like they want to be the first to explain why things went wrong. Some people will grab onto anything when they vent. It's a frustration thing. You're right that people here aren't out of the ordinary. That's why this is so easy to spot. The treatment of Longshore was just as bitter as the treatment of Maynard, and he didn't have a brother or character issues, so you'll have to forgive people who've been here for a while. We see the same thing over and over and over (and on other teams' boards), and it really doesn't matter what the player is actually like.

Players are certainly open to criticism. Fortunately, when a player breaks the law or does something that actually embarrasses the university, that information comes out. If a player does a lot of community service or whatever, he gets praised. Most players (and most Cal students generally) just kind of float along in the middle character-wise, but we shouldn't blast them because of that. Unless we have real information, everything's based on shadows and that's when confirmation bias really becomes problematic. Can you find anyone who's personally interacted with KA and found him disrespectful? I can find show you several people claiming the opposite. Has he ever said anything stupid on twitter, like some of our players? There are actually lots of places where bad character can come out. Did it for KA? Personally, I think that the way a player interacts with people in real life says more about their character than what we see from 50 rows up. If KA was doing stuff on the field that was out of the ordinary he must have gotten a lot of penalties, right? This actually reminds me of another fan favorite: Zack Follett head-butted a defenseless, helmetless player on national television, but we won 9 games his last year and he got a lot of sacks, so people here were saying that he should be a coach for us. KA, on the other hand, has character issues. I wonder why?

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:bravo

I appreciate this: If calumnus had simply said this I would be fine. Without characterizing me and or others as haters, rumour mongorers, teenage gossipers or disrespectful people that should apologize, you said what you believe to be true. If we are misinformed or somehow mispercieved things then I do apologize. But it is hard to apologize when being attacked or belittled.

It may seem to folks who had direct contract with KA that these character concerns were motivated by negativity. But even if they turn out to be mostly unfounded, the reason for them could be positive. It is quite possible that some folks are so concerns about protecting the integrity of Cal football that they over-reacted to unsubstantiated rumours and/or misperceived some of the events of recent years. These same folks, of which I am one, don't believe that any one person is above the team and become upset whenever they think they see that occuring. They also don't care who it is and/or what they have done for the team. So, because I might be sensitive to that does not make me any more negative than someone who becomes upset at BI members who criticize a player and then shames or mischaracterizes them for it.

My point is that nobody is better than anybody else. Likewise, I hope I didn't imply that I was better than KA and ZM. My point was that I don't think they are better than anybody else either and shouldn't receive special treatment. If I offended in the process, again I am sorry. But I am not going to let folks with good intentions be attacked on this board just because somebody has made up a morality that justifies this. The problem with calumnus is that he is so angry about players getting criticized that he started losing perspective on what needed to be said and got into negativity itself. I'm sure that quite a few folks think he is justified as the integrity reflects more short term emotional reactions than reasoned ones. But I am not one of them.

As sick as calumnus admits he is about "attacks on players". I am equally and probably more sick at the way people us victimization to then attack in return. If I made calumnus into an enemy in the process, that is something I truly regret. All I was trying to do was point out how he was doing the same thing that he didn't like others doing.

Hopefully, your post will serve as an example for the future.

One thing I should say is that I really like the players and was fortunate to meet and talk to some of them in person at the reseating event in Febuary. It has become clear over time that the players put their heart and soul into every game last year. This includes KA and ZM. It is tragic for them more than it is for me as a fan that their efforts were so consistently at odds with what appeared to happen on the field. And it must have been heartbreaking by the end of the season.

I will definitely keep the lessons of that in my mind in the future as I watch games and root for Cal, the main lesson being that the players are making great efforts whether it seems that way of not. Despite what it may seem, I am not a results oriented fan. So it will just add to my appreciation to know how much sweat is going into the process.

:gobears:

Rushinbear;842119152 said:

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Because he spit in our eye when we gave him more than every possible chance to act like a Golden Bear. And, I must admit, because he was the embodiment of our embarassment over a coach that had lost it and made a deal with the devil. Our feelings about it will diminish over time, but occasional reminders will drag it out, as this one has.

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Chill out and go take a long Road Trip. It might make you feel better about yourself....

heartofthebear;842119228 said:

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It may seem to folks who had direct contract with KA that these character concerns were motivated by negativity. But even if they turn out to be mostly unfounded, the reason for them could be positive. It is quite possible that some folks are so concerns about protecting the integrity of Cal football that they over-reacted to unsubstantiated rumours and/or misperceived some of the events of recent years. These same folks, of which I am one, don't believe that any one person is above the team and become upset whenever they think they see that occuring. They also don't care who it is and/or what they have done for the team. So, because I might be sensitive to that does not make me any more negative than someone who becomes upset at BI members who criticize a player and then shames or mischaracterizes them for it.

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I think everyone agrees with the bolded statement. I don't think anyone is arguing that KA should be treated differently. The argument is that people who accuse KA of having character problems are doing so unfairly. It's tough because when people accuse a player of being a bad apple it's idiomatic to say that they're being "disrespectful," but by saying that they aren't saying that that player should be "respected" in the way that you'd respect a firefighter. It's just that "disrespect" and "respect" aren't really antonyms. We shouldn't disrespect any of our players, but that doesn't mean that we have to "respect" them in any strong sense of the word, if that makes sense. I don't think anyone is inventing a new morality that places KA above other players and deifies him because he's talented, but rather that we shouldn't rush to judgment based on scattered observations that are subject to confirmation bias. We aren't saying that he's definitely a great guy, but rather that the evidence that he's a low-character guy is suspect, and that some of the visceral dislike for him (as seen in some posts in this thread: http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68132&highlight=Allen) is out of line.

berk18;842119245 said:

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I think everyone agrees with the bolded statement. I don't think anyone is arguing that KA should be treated differently. The argument is that people who accuse KA of having character problems are doing so unfairly. It's tough because when people accuse a player of being a bad apple it's idiomatic to say that they're being "disrespectful," but by saying that they aren't saying that that player should be "respected" in the way that you'd respect a firefighter. It's just that "disrespect" and "respect" aren't really antonyms. We shouldn't disrespect any of our players, but that doesn't mean that we have to "respect" them in any strong sense of the word, if that makes sense. I don't think anyone is inventing a new morality that places KA above other players and deifies him because he's talented, but rather that we shouldn't rush to judgment based on scattered observations that are subject to confirmation bias. We aren't saying that he's definitely a great guy, but rather that the evidence that he's a low-character guy is suspect, and that some of the visceral dislike for him (as seen in some posts in this thread: http://bearinsider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68132&highlight=Allen) is out of line.

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Got it. Thank you. KA needs to hire you as his PR guy.