UCBerkGrad;842129697 said:

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Are there any stats out there that compare football academic casualties to the general student population?

As an undergrad, I knew a few people that weren't prepared for the academic rigors of Cal and dropped out. It wouldn't surprise me if the general student body failure rate is higher than the Cal football player failure rate.

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Bare in mind student athletes have more academic perks than the general population. Private mentors, priority at SLC, priority registration, etc. Also alot of them (not all) are in easier majors like American Studies vs Engineering or something.

UCBerkGrad;842129697 said:

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Are there any stats out there that compare football academic casualties to the general student population?

As an undergrad, I knew a few people that weren't prepared for the academic rigors of Cal and dropped out. It wouldn't surprise me if the general student body failure rate is higher than the Cal football player failure rate.

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higher? lower? same?
It's irrelevant.

emanbears24;842129591 said:

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Kyle Kragen, Sione Sina, Marcus Manley, and Drake Whitehurst

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It is time to release the KRAGEN!

that most D1 football programs suffer from academic letdown from season to season - no matter who the coach happens to be. Living in Southern California, we read about the USC and Ucla casualties often about this time of the year.

Having known several Cal recruits, I agree with the poster who stated that "many" of our recruits didn't have good grades or show academic motivation to begin with in high school. I have known some of these recruits. And in today's world, how many recruits come to Cal for a degree anyway? It's that ticket to the $NFL that is more of a focus.

I also agree with the point that JT worked very hard and was lauded for his classroom improvements in his early years.

Having played D1 football myself, I personally saw numerous academic casualties and in my day, the motivation to stay eligible wasn't just to play football..it was to avoid Vietnam.

Football players, after all, are meatheads..:woohoo

72CalBear;842129731 said:

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that most D1 football programs suffer from academic letdown from season to season - no matter who the coach happens to be. Living in Southern California, we read about the USC and Ucla casualties often about this time of the year.

Having known several Cal recruits, I agree with the poster who stated that "many" of our recruits didn't have good grades or show academic motivation to begin with in high school. I have known some of these recruits. And in today's world, how many recruits come to Cal for a degree anyway? It's that ticket to the $NFL that is more of a focus.

I also agree with the point that JT worked very hard and was lauded for his classroom improvements in his early years.

Having played D1 football myself, I personally saw numerous academic casualties and in my day, the motivation to stay eligible wasn't just to play football..it was to avoid Vietnam.

Football players, after all, are meatheads..:woohoo

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t'hell with the NFL ...
academic progress can be measured and guys who fall behind in the classroom can be withheld from the field ... accountability, responsibility.
The KA types and their "relatives" can go play for 'Bama or uDuh where it doesn't matter if you go to class or drive while dangerously drunk.

72CalBear;842129731 said:

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that most D1 football programs suffer from academic letdown from season to season - no matter who the coach happens to be. Living in Southern California, we read about the USC and Ucla casualties often about this time of the year.

Having known several Cal recruits, I agree with the poster who stated that "many" of our recruits didn't have good grades or show academic motivation to begin with in high school. I have known some of these recruits. And in today's world, how many recruits come to Cal for a degree anyway? It's that ticket to the $NFL that is more of a focus.

I also agree with the point that JT worked very hard and was lauded for his classroom improvements in his early years.

Having played D1 football myself, I personally saw numerous academic casualties and in my day, the motivation to stay eligible wasn't just to play football..it was to avoid Vietnam.

Football players, after all, are meatheads..:woohoo

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Thanks for this insight 72CalBear. I do have a question though. It seems that the percentage of players that end up playing in the NFL are pretty low, unless you are a 5 or high 4 star player. I don't understand how some players do not get serious about getting a degree since their chance of getting into the NFL are slim. Seems as though some of these guys are going all out for the NFL and not locking in a backup plan if things do not go their way. Why is getting a degree not a higher priority for some of these lower rated players? Would appreciate your insight as a former player. Thanks!

:gobears:

UCBerkGrad;842129697 said:

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Are there any stats out there that compare football academic casualties to the general student population?

As an undergrad, I knew a few people that weren't prepared for the academic rigors of Cal and dropped out. It wouldn't surprise me if the general student body failure rate is higher than the Cal football player failure rate.

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The 5 year graduation rate for Cal is about 87% so yes a lot of difference between football players

sycasey;842129413 said:

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Unfortunately, it looks like this is what Tedford's last few "great" recruiting classes are getting us: guys we recruited who aren't actually able to handle the academic load. The man was trying to save his job and sold academics out to do it.

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Seems like the main vehicle in which this happened, was the NC connection. That has turned out to be a really bad deal. I believe it got him fired (i.e. relying on Maynard so much because JT seemed to feel obligated). McCain has great talent so I am hoping he proves us all wrong and gets back into good academic standing. On the other hand, I want guys that are good AND also are fully about doing it right -- guys like Scarlett and Avery. We do not want guys who do not care about academics or hedging on whether to give Coach Dykes their best. That said, I have no idea whether McCain tried and failed (no shame in that) or just tried to coast (this is a problem).

KoreAmBear;842129743 said:

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Seems like the main vehicle in which this happened, was the NC connection. That has turned out to be a really bad deal. I believe it got him fired (i.e. relying on Maynard so much because JT seemed to feel obligated). McCain has great talent so I am hoping he proves us all wrong and gets back into good academic standing. On the other hand, I want guys that are good AND also are fully about doing it right -- guys like Scarlett and Avery. We do not want guys who do not care about academics or hedging on whether to give Coach Dykes their best. That said, I have no idea whether McCain tried and failed (no shame in that) or just tried to coast (this is a problem).

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I totally agree. JT reached for the brass ring to get the NC recruits. Unfortunately very few of that class really panned out as planned.
And he gave up on his former attitude as a strict disciplinarian.
Result: he lost the control/respect of the team.

68great;842129749 said:

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I totally agree. JT reached for the brass ring to get the NC recruits. Unfortunately very few of that class really panned out as planned.
And he gave up on his former attitude as a strict disciplinarian.
Result: he lost the control/respect of the team.

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Not sure I agree-starting qb as a transfer, staring linebacker as a red shirt freshman, starting wr as a true freshman and an early leave for NFL. King's been disappointing but the others have met expectations- as football players.

GB54;842129755 said:

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Not sure I agree-starting qb as a transfer, staring linebacker as a red shirt freshman, starting wr as a true freshman and an early leave for NFL. King's been disappointing but the others have met expectations- as football players.

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I wouldn't say that Maynard met our expectations, on the field or off.

pingpong2;842129757 said:

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I wouldn't say that Maynard met our expectations, on the field or off.

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+1 Agree. I thought I miss read something about Maynard meeting expectations.

pingpong2;842129757 said:

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I wouldn't say that Maynard met our expectations, on the field or off.

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Probably true but he transferred here after posting mediocre results at Buffalo and won the job. He was obviously better than the back up.

RighteousGoldenBear;842129737 said:

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Thanks for this insight 72CalBear. I do have a question though. It seems that the percentage of players that end up playing in the NFL are pretty low, unless you are a 5 or high 4 star player. I don't understand how some players do not get serious about getting a degree since their chance of getting into the NFL are slim. Seems as though some of these guys are going all out for the NFL and not locking in a backup plan if things do not go their way. Why is getting a degree not a higher priority for some of these lower rated players? Would appreciate your insight as a former player. Thanks!

:gobears:

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I am guessing that just about every D1 recruit/player has a "dream" (realistic or not) of playing in the NFL..some don't make it, and many never give up (ie Tedford, Canada).

I would also suggest that "most" of our Cal football recruits come to play football first..I mean, that's why they were recruited to the school and got them entry.

Even "lower" rated (2-3 star) players have proven that they can in fact, make it in the pros (ie AR, etc).

Pro money is just so big these days - and a player's shelf life doesn't have to be a lifetime - Retiring after 35 years of work with a BA, or after 8 year$ with the NFL??

I am just saying that even having a certain aptitude for academics, "hard-worker", good character, etc..doesn't guarantee the same kind of success at Cal as it does it high school. The diversions are much different, and the stakes much higher.

72CalBear;842129762 said:

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I am guessing that just about every D1 recruit/player has a "dream" (realistic or not) of playing in the NFL..some don't make it, and many never give up (ie Tedford, Canada).

I would also suggest that "most" of our Cal football recruits come to play football first..I mean, that's why they were recruited to the school and got them entry.

Even "lower" rated (2-3 star) players have proven that they can in fact, make it in the pros (ie AR, etc).

Pro money is just so big these days - and a player's shelf life doesn't have to be a lifetime - Retiring after 35 years of work with a BA, or after 8 year$ with the NFL??

I am just saying that even having a certain aptitude for academics, "hard-worker", good character, etc..doesn't guarantee the same kind of success at Cal as it does it high school. The diversions are much different, and the stakes much higher.

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Poor performance (accountability, responsibility, buying-in) will keep those guys on the bench. Two prominent DLs who didn't understand that have the message loud and clear now, as does the team.

SonOfCalVa;842129764 said:

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Poor performance (accountability, responsibility, buying-in) will keep those guys on the bench. Two prominent DLs who didn't understand that have the message loud and clear now, as does the team.

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Which other major programs were they getting offers from? It seems odd that they would choose to come to one of the most academically challenging schools in the country if they didn't intend on hitting the books...

There also remains the possibility that they're doing the best they can to try to get the grades, but just don't have what it takes. I can think of lots of people I knew from high school who busted their butts just to graduate high school but would have been eaten alive at Cal.

pingpong2;842129769 said:

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There also remains the possibility that they're doing the best they can to try to get the grades, but just don't have what it takes. I can think of lots of people I knew from high school who busted their butts just to graduate high school but would have been eaten alive at Cal.

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Thing is some players did not go to class or tutoring sessions. They did not take the available tools to their disposals.That is the problem we had with these guys. They were more focused on the nfl than school. End result is a low apr.

Cal Panda Bear;842129771 said:

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Thing is some players did not go to class or tutoring sessions. They did not take the available tools to their disposals.That is the problem we had with these guys. They were more focused on the nfl than school. End result is a low apr.

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This. It's one thing to "not have what it takes". It's another to squander every opportunity to help you get there.

SonOfCalVa;842129736 said:

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t'hell with the NFL ...
academic progress can be measured and guys who fall behind in the classroom can be withheld from the field ... accountability, responsibility.
The KA types and their "relatives" can go play for 'Bama or uDuh where it doesn't matter if you go to class or drive while dangerously drunk.

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Alabama has an APR in upper 900s. Think around 980

The problem is not McCain, and it is certainly not Tedford. The problem is certain members of the Cal faculty who feel obligated to hold our football student athletes to the same high academic standard as NO other football schools.

If we want to win, our professors need to want to win.

PS I'm back b*tches.
PPS F*ck Stanfurd.

BlueAndGold;842129776 said:

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This. It's one thing to "not have what it takes". It's another to squander every opportunity to help you get there.

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Simply amazing to hear this. Kids work a lifetime for an opportunity to attend a great university like Cal....and many never have that chance. Give a player that golden ticket...and provide the resources to graduate and they **** it away. I guess to another poster's comment, why go to Cal if you're not at the very least, serious about the academics and getting a degree? Why not opt for another program where the academic rigor is not as intense. SMH.

MiZery;842129778 said:

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Alabama has an APR in upper 900s. Think around 980

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Guys there must be having a good laugh!!! This is proof about how good Bama must be at cheating the system, in my opinion.

GB54;842129759 said:

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Probably true but he transferred here after posting mediocre results at Buffalo and won the job. He was obviously better than the back up.

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"Won" should be in quotes. People wonder if he truly did win the job over even Bridgford. But that shows how bad JT had become with QB evaluation. Both Maynard and Bridgford (esp. if JT knew he threw "balloon balls" in practice) should have been demoted down the depth chart to Hinder, Boehm and/or Kline. Sonny came in and quickly saw that Bridgford was not our future, even though he had all the experience over the other guys. Why JT could not see this, I have no idea. That's why he doesn't have a job currently.

I've worked closely with the freshmen in Summerbridge the last two years (and will be returning for my third), so I have more thoughts on this that I'll post later.

socaliganbear;842129533 said:

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Insider board. Anyway there has been a known group of players with highly questionable academics for a couple years now. He is one of them. This is not a surprise to people who have followed this issue. All I'm saying is hanging on and just barely getting by (until he couldnt) is not the same as "handling" it. Especially when it comes to course work at Cal.

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Thanks for the information. I do not have access to the insider board, so it is news to me. My point is that it is strange to say he is not "able" to handle the academics, given that he did well enough to remain eligible over a prolonged period of time. I cannot comment on whether he was just hanging on and just barely getting by, as I do not know his grades and have not seen any prior evidence indicating that is the case. The fact that he managed to consistently remain eligible for every prior semester over the course of a couple of years leads me to believe he is "able" to handle the academics at Cal. That is a long time to hang on and just barely get by at something. At any rate, I hope he gets things straightened out soon for his sake.

KoreAmBear;842129784 said:

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"Won" should be in quotes. People wonder if he truly did win the job over even Bridgford. But that shows how bad JT had become with QB evaluation. Both Maynard and Bridgford (esp. if JT knew he threw "balloon balls" in practice) should have been demoted down the depth chart to Hinder, Boehm and/or Kline. Sonny came in and quickly saw that Bridgford was not our future, even though he had all the experience over the other guys. Why JT could not see this, I have no idea. That's why he doesn't have a job currently.

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We should not disparage AB's skills as if he were horrible.
SD said that if he had two QB's of comparable skills, he would go with the younger of the two since the younger QB would contribute longer.

IMO that meant that either (i) ZK, or Goff or HInder were clearly better; or (ii) AB was not clearly better than ZK, or Goff or Hinder so why should SD choose a QB who could play for only one year ahead of QB's who play for several years.

Just in that one decision SD showed himself a better coach than JT who continued to play senior ZM even after his shortcomings were painfully evident and even after Cal was clearly out of contention for a bowl in 2012. .

68great;842129807 said:

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We should not disparage AB's skills as if he were horrible.
SD said that if he had two QB's of comparable skills, he would go with the younger of the two since the younger QB would contribute longer.

IMO that meant that either (i) ZK, or Goff or HInder were clearly better; or (ii) AB was not clearly better than ZK, or Goff or Hinder so why should SD choose a QB who could play for only one year ahead of QB's who play for several years.

Just in that one decision SD showed himself a better coach than JT who continued to play senior ZM even after his shortcomings were painfully evident and even after Cal was clearly out of contention for a bowl in 2012. .

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Ya I am not trying to disparage AB. He's a fine gentleman, from what I have seen. Good luck to him. I think the lifting injury contributed to him having to change his delivery and not get a lot of strength on his deep throws. Too bad because I was hoping to see some greatness, judging by all his HS accolades.

GoldenBearofCalifornia;842129792 said:

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Thanks for the information. I do not have access to the insider board, so it is news to me. My point is that it is strange to say he is not "able" to handle the academics, given that he did well enough to remain eligible over a prolonged period of time. I cannot comment on whether he was just hanging on and just barely getting by, as I do not know his grades and have not seen any prior evidence indicating that is the case. The fact that he managed to consistently remain eligible for every prior semester over the course of a couple of years leads me to believe he is "able" to handle the academics at Cal. That is a long time to hang on and just barely get by at something. At any rate, I hope he gets things straightened out soon for his sake.

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Read MB's comment on this. I'm sure you can imagine that players dont just get dropped after one randomly bad semester. It's cumulative. Not just grades, but other academic requirements.

KoreAmBear;842129815 said:

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Ya I am not trying to disparage AB. He's a fine gentleman, from what I have seen. Good luck to him. I think the lifting injury contributed to him having to change his delivery and not get a lot of strength on his deep throws. Too bad because I was hoping to see some greatness, judging by all his HS accolades.

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It totally was the injury. When some here think AB was awful they think he was always awful but that simply isn't true. In fact, in the Spring before his injury when AB and ZM went head to head, no less than Jonathon Okanes and Moraga Bear both said that AB was the more accurate and much better passer with none of the ballon balls...that is why some still consider the conspiracy theory thing. I mean, I posted almost all the quotes from Okanes articles in March or April of that year and 90% if of those who watched the two said AB was hands down the better QB...so JT wanted ZM for something other than passing cause he was throwing interceptions in practice as much as in games

MiZery;842129778 said:

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Alabama has an APR in upper 900s. Think around 980

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really? wow, cool

Furd changed their "mascot" to a shade of red to cement their wannabe claim as the "Hahvad of the West. :rollinglaugh:

Bama already has the color ... Mebbe they can claim to be the Harvard of the South. :p

SonOfCalVa;842129829 said:

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really? wow, cool

Furd changed their "mascot" to a shade of red to cement their wannabe claim as the "Hahvad of the West. :rollinglaugh:

Bama already has the color ... Mebbe they can claim to be the Harvard of the South. :p

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I suspect the football players at Alabama and Cal have a lot more in common academically than the student bodies at the two institutions. The idea that our players have anything to do with Cal's academic reputation is pretty bizarre.

GB54;842129830 said:

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I suspect the football players at Alabama and Cal have a lot more in common academically than the student bodies at the two institutions. The idea that our players have anything to do with Cal's academic reputation is pretty bizarre.

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This ^^^^

socalBear23;842129726 said:

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It is time to release the KRAGEN!

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I expect big contributions from Kragen and Sina

Cal_Fan2;842129821 said:

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It totally was the injury. When some here think AB was awful they think he was always awful but that simply isn't true. In fact, in the Spring before his injury when AB and ZM went head to head, no less than Jonathon Okanes and Moraga Bear both said that AB was the more accurate and much better passer with none of the ballon balls...that is why some still consider the conspiracy theory thing. I mean, I posted almost all the quotes from Okanes articles in March or April of that year and 90% if of those who watched the two said AB was hands down the better QB...so JT wanted ZM for something other than passing cause he was throwing interceptions in practice as much as in games

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The injury was the year before. It is true some people said AB was more accurate that Srping, but I thought it was obvious that he had no strength on his throws that Spring and then was obvious again in his poor performance (40%) against the Presbyterian scrubs and every other time he took the field.

Quote:

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2012 (Game-by-Game Stats): Started three of the six games he played in and finshed 31-of-68 (45.6%) for 461 yards with one touchdown and three interceptions for a 75.84 passer efficiency rating ... started each of the final two games against Oregon (9-of-21, 113 yards, TD, 2 INT) and at Oregon State (18-of-31, 132 yards, INT) after starter Zach Maynard was injured late in the 10th game of the season against Washington ... had career highs in completions, attempts and passing yardage against Oregon State ... scored his lone collegiate touchdown on a one-yard run at Oregon State that was among his career-high-tying three carries for -3 yards ... had career-high-tying one rushing yard on a career-high-tying three carries vs. Oregon, including a career-long five-yard rush ... was 2-of-7 for 26 yards in relief of an injured Maynard vs. Washington, taking over on the second play of Cal's final drive trailing 21-13 and leading the Golden Bears from their own 32-yard line to the Washington 25-yard line before being stopped on downs ... also started the season opener after Maynard was suspended for missing a tutoring appointment prior to the season, completing 2-of-9 passes for six yards over the first three drives before Maynard entered the contest ... completed 11-of-21 passes for 90 yards with one interception as the starting quarterback for the winning Gold team in the spring game ... had three completions of 20 or more yards.

2011 (Game-by-Game Stats): Played in four games off the bench, completing 13-of-32 passes for 184 yards without a touchdown or interception for an 88.93 passer efficiency rating ... had three rushes for one yard ... biggest game came at Oregon when he completed 8-of-19 passes for 103 yards (all season highs) ... led the Bears on two third-quarter touchdown drives and was 4-of-10 for 76 yards vs. Presbyterian, including a career-long 33-yard completion to Marvin Jones ... also had a one-yard rush vs. Presbyterian that equaled his career high rushing yards ... was 1-of-3 for five yards with two rushes for no yards against Washington State ... had three completions of 20 or more yards.

2010: Did not play as he recovered from a shoulder injury.

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calumnus;842129853 said:

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The injury was the year before. It is true some people said AB was more accurate that Srping, but I thought it was obvious that he had no strength on his throws that Spring and then was obvious again in his poor performance (40%) against the Presbyterian scrubs and every other time he took the field.

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Whatever year it was when they went head to head the first time....I'll trust that Moraga Bear and Okanes who both have followed Cal football could discern this plus all who saw them together pretty much said the same thing. I know, I posted the responses. I'm strictly talking before his injury. I'm not bashing ZM so no need to defend him this time my friend. I'm just saying JT must have been looking for something other than passing stats...the thing is, ZM really is bad at scrambling though he does fine on designed run plays. AB's inability to pass down field later on speaks of JT's inability to find players, coach them up or both. I can count numerous teams whose back up QB was better than our starter. No one can convince me yet that something was up.....but hell, I'm a behaviorist and look for patterns, not stats....oh well.