incredible

Wisconsin got jobbed but they also mucked around too much

PAC 12 refs idiots stoke again

Disaster. PAC 12 refs choked the finish.

the espn recap made it sound like wisc screwed it up.

ultramantaro;842176698 said:

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the espn recap made it sound like wisc screwed it up.

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As did Neweasel on Pac 12. Can't spike with less than 3 secs, either.

For those that didn't see it, ASU was holding onto a 2 point lead, and Wisconsin was driving inside ASU's 20 yard line with about 10 seconds left (this is just from memory - could be a little off). No time outs left. The Wisconsin QB takes the snap at the right hash and runs the ball left to center it for a game winning field goal. Except, instead of taking a knee at the center of the field, he just sets the ball on the ground!

The ASU defenders look at each other perplexed, then dive on the ball, thinking it's a live ball. The refs are blowing their whistles to indicate that it is not a live ball because, apparently, the ball is down if the runner does any action to indicate that he is "giving himself up." But the clock is still ticking while an ASU player is still laying on the ball. Then when he gets off, the Pac-12 ref spots the ball with about 2 seconds left and Wisconsin lines up to try to spike it, but the ref holds his hand out to the Wisconsin QB indicating that he should not snap it until the ref is ready. Time runs out while the ref is holding his hand out.

So arguably the refs screwed up, but Wisconsin also screwed the pooch bigtime by,

1. Not taking a knee. OK, maybe it was a legal way to down the ball, but why take the chance and leave it up to the referee's interpretation of whether he "gave himself up"? This lead to the confusion that led to the extra delay.

2. Having no time outs with about 10 seconds left, Whisky should have just kicked the field goal from the right hash. You never want to rely on the refs to spot the ball in time for you to spike it with more than 3 seconds left.

It would appear a knee was indeed taken:



Regardless, the play was blown dead by the officials, so ASU should have been penalized with a delay of game for jumping on the ball after the whistle had already blown.

WI DID blow it. As pointed out earlier in the broadcast, WI has kicking issues - which is why they tried to center the ball. They blew it because it's really stupid to do that with so little time. They were in the drivers seat - and gave up the control.

I am glad ASU lost because I think the 50yd play before, the WR stepped out of bounds (with both feet!) and yet the play wasn't overturned on review. Meaning UW would have still been out of field goal range and would have had to make 1 or two more plays to win. Instead the refs blew that call in UW's favor. At least that call was arguable and the replay ref probably thought evidence wasn't conclusive to overturn the play on the field.

I don't blame the ASU players as I thought WTF, he just fumbled the ball? Jump on it. I didn't see the first kneel because the lineman either ran into Stave or got pushed into him. All around crazy ending, but the refs were incompetent

I'm watching these two lightweight teams on the magic television machine after returning from seeing live our close, well played contest with some Ohio state team (didn't catch which town in Ohio.)
Anyway, it comes down to the visiting team trying to center the ball, and what I see is the QB stumbling around and laying the ball on the ground; I'm screaming at the TV "fumble! fumble! fumble!" hoping the docile home defense will wake up; finally a couple do but the refs blow the call and doesn't give them the ball. The opposition continues their mental stumbling and fail anyway.
Now, that's the way to play the game.

Shades of our game against Oregon State and Riley's mistake... the turning point in the Tedford era...

They had 18 seconds left. The Qb was in a hurry so he put his knee down for only a split second (and was bumped by his own lineman) and then stood up and set the ball down. When I watched it the first time I didn't catch that he had kneeled down. It looked like he just set the ball down. No timeouts you can't flirt with the clock. Get the field goal off.

gobears3000;842177321 said:

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Shades of our game against Oregon State and Riley's mistake... the turning point in the Tedford era...

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Indeed. Wisconsin fans, take a good look at that kneel down picture. It could be the beginning of a long slide from national prominence to cellar dweller.

run2win;842176688 said:

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Disaster. PAC 12 refs choked the finish.

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Maybe my eyes deceived me, but they totally blew the throw in the corner of the end zone where the replay showed the WR was in (they didn't even review) and there was a reception that clearly bounced to a TOSU Wr on a critical "reception" they didn't bother to review. In fact, I was also expecting a review of the Goff fumble (from our side of the field, his arm was in motion, but the ref was on the wrong side (as usual for a Pac 12 ref) out of position. Any truth to the rumor no replays because the replay official was still giving Larry Scott a blow job from last game?

wifeisafurd;842177803 said:

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Maybe my eyes deceived me, but they totally blew the throw in the corner of the end zone where the replay showed the WR was in (they didn't even review) and there was a reception that clearly bounced to a TOSU Wr on a critical "reception" they didn't bother to review. In fact, I was also expecting a review of the Goff fumble (from our side of the field, his arm was in motion, but the ref was on the wrong side (as usual for a Pac 12 ref) out of position. Any truth to the rumor no replays because the replay official was still giving Larry Scott a blow job from last game?

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That was a goff fumble, no forward movement of the football, out before the motion started.

Calcoholic;842176777 said:

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For those that didn't see it, ASU was holding onto a 2 point lead, and Wisconsin was driving inside ASU's 20 yard line with about 10 seconds left (this is just from memory - could be a little off). No time outs left. The Wisconsin QB takes the snap at the right hash and runs the ball left to center it for a game winning field goal. Except, instead of taking a knee at the center of the field, he just sets the ball on the ground!

The ASU defenders look at each other perplexed, then dive on the ball, thinking it's a live ball. The refs are blowing their whistles to indicate that it is not a live ball because, apparently, the ball is down if the runner does any action to indicate that he is "giving himself up." But the clock is still ticking while an ASU player is still laying on the ball. Then when he gets off, the Pac-12 ref spots the ball with about 2 seconds left and Wisconsin lines up to try to spike it, but the ref holds his hand out to the Wisconsin QB indicating that he should not snap it until the ref is ready. Time runs out while the ref is holding his hand out.

So arguably the refs screwed up, but Wisconsin also screwed the pooch bigtime by,

1. Not taking a knee. OK, maybe it was a legal way to down the ball, but why take the chance and leave it up to the referee's interpretation of whether he "gave himself up"? This lead to the confusion that led to the extra delay.

2. Having no time outs with about 10 seconds left, Whisky should have just kicked the field goal from the right hash. You never want to rely on the refs to spot the ball in time for you to spike it with more than 3 seconds left.

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CORRECTION
I watched the play --- the Refs screwed up NOT Wisconsin.

20 seconds left on the clock.
wisconsin QB takes the ball and centers it for the FG.
17 seconds left QB begins to down the ball and take a knee.
QB sets the ball on the ground. (not sure if the QB's knee touches the ground)
Ref in back of the QB signals that the ball is down. But does not signal time out.
ASU lineman falls on the ball.
Ref behind the ASU lineman starts discussion with the Ref behind the Wisconsin QB.
After the Refs pull the ASU lineman off the ball, sets the ball on the ground.
BUT now there are only 3 seconds left.
Wisconsin tries to set and hike the ball for the spike with 1 second left.
Game over.
Refs huddle and talk it over. Then run off the field.

I am not an expert on the rules but to me there were clear mistakes by the Refs.

One: once the QB was signaled down, there should have been a delay of game penalty on the ASU lineman for falling on the ball and delaying the refs from resetting the ball for play. It was an outrage for it to take 14 seconds to reset the ball after the first ref signalled that the QB was down.

Two: when the two refs started discussing the play with about 10 seconds left, one of them should have called a time out. To me it was clear that one might have thought that the other had done so.

Three: the refs just ran off the field without explaining what happened. There was so much confusion. To me it it seemed that they tried to think about correcting the mistake and could not think of a way to do so. So they just "got out of Dodge" as fast as they could. Imagine the Play with the refs signaling TD after 10 seconds of discussion then running off the field.

IMO this loss is going to cost Wisconsin big time.
The Refs should be banned from reffing any more games this year.
I would hate to have them ref any game Cal plays.

If this had happened against Cal, there would have been a riot.

that was an unbelievable ending. pac 12 refs strike again. One day, and probaby sometime soon, big time teams are going to start to think twice about scheduling pac 12 teams due to the crappy refs and the insistence, against common practice, of using p12 refs for home games instead of neutral refs.

The question is what the correct response should be in that situation? On TV it was not at all obvious that the QB down the ball. It really looked like a live ball. If an ASU player jumps on that ball, you really can't blame him or penalize him. What the refs need to do is stop the clock, and discuss the situation and get it right.

That said, P12 ref incompetence set up wisky's drive. They got like 25 extra yards (into FG range) on that pass play where a players feet were out on consecutive steps.

ColoradoBear1;842177930 said:

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that was an unbelievable ending. pac 12 refs strike again. One day, and probaby sometime soon, big time teams are going to start to think twice about scheduling pac 12 teams due to the crappy refs and the insistence, against common practice, of using p12 refs for home games instead of neutral refs.

The question is what the correct response should be in that situation? On TV it was not at all obvious that the QB down the ball. It really looked like a live ball. If an ASU player jumps on that ball, you really can't blame him or penalize him. What the refs need to do is stop the clock, and discuss the situation and get it right.

That said, P12 ref incompetence set up wisky's drive. They got like 25 extra yards (into FG range) on that pass play where a players feet were out on consecutive steps.

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I agree that the action of the QB was unclear...BUT the ref behind the QB ran in pointing to the ground. To me that signalled that the QB was "down" unless there is some other meaning to that motion. At that time there were more than 14 seconds still left on the clock (IIRC) The ASU player falling on the ball and delaying getting up should have been a delay of game call. There after what were the two refs doing talking to each other without calling a time out?

it's not just on the refs. when you are taking a knee you have to do it clearly; the qb clearly didn't do that. it started with poor execution and snowballed. If you just watch the Wisc side though you see what's going on -- they seemed to think they had time to get lined up for the next play and that the refs would give them the signal to start, suddenly the QB realizes the clock's run down to 2 and freaks. I think he got sidetracked a bit by the confusion and lost track of time. The refs do need to take control in that situation, they seemed confused too.

the kneel down. To me it did not look like he took a knee. Maybe some of you put it in super slow mo and his knee grazed the grass. This was an idiotic move by the QB...

BUT! The refs blew the play dead. so whether he got his knee down is irrelevant.

BUT! The refs blow it again by not calling a delay of game penalty.

BUT! If his knee did not go down it should have been a fumble.

So in a 12 second play, the refs successfully messed up 3 calls!

Go Bears!

wifeisafurd;842177803 said:

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Maybe my eyes deceived me, but they totally blew the throw in the corner of the end zone where the replay showed the WR was in (they didn't even review) and there was a reception that clearly bounced to a TOSU Wr on a critical "reception" they didn't bother to review. In fact, I was also expecting a review of the Goff fumble (from our side of the field, his arm was in motion, but the ref was on the wrong side (as usual for a Pac 12 ref) out of position. Any truth to the rumor no replays because the replay official was still giving Larry Scott a blow job from last game?

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In regards to the TD pass rules incomplete, they didn't show a good replay in the stadium, but I heard some people near me saying that Treggs (I think it was Treggs) got his feet in but lost the ball when he went to the ground which is why it was an easy incompletion call.

However, I do remember that some Cal people on our sideline were gesturing pretty strongly after the replay call but I'd imagine that Sonny would've had to throw a challenge if the WR had full control over the ball and it was just a matter of feet in-bounds.

According to the rules (any action toward downing...), he did take a knee regardless of whether or not the knee actually hit the ground. Once the whistles blew, the refs had to either: 1. stop the clock, or 2. penalize ASU for delay of game (lying on the ball). Where Wisky is partly culpable is that the QB shouldn't have put the ball down, he should have handed it to the ref; no doubt there and there would have been time for the spike and then FG.

Bottom line: Pac-12 refs continue to embarrass the conference despite Scott's efforts.

I for one actually have no problem with what the refs did. This was a coaching error. If you are losing with 18 seconds left and you don't have any timeouts you shouldn't run the ball and expect to have another play.

ducktilldeath;842176812 said:

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1. You are way off. There was no (mis)interpretation. They blew the play dead. Why fire off all the whistles and point at the ground if they didn't know he had legally ended the play? There is absolutely zero question, none, that the play was ended in Wisconsin's possession and that ASU jumped on a dead ball. That is textbook delay of game. It doesn't matter if the ASU player(s) didn't know that, they violated the rule. And anyway, THE WHISTLES BLEW LIKE CRAZY.

2. Yep. Andersen is an idiot, as if centering the ball for a 30 yard FG was worth the risk.

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I'm guessing you were drunk and/or crying when you wrote this? You're arguing against a straw man, but thanks for interjecting a little Oregon meth head fire into the discussion.

StillNoStanfurdium;842178230 said:

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In regards to the TD pass rules incomplete, they didn't show a good replay in the stadium, but I heard some people near me saying that Treggs (I think it was Treggs) got his feet in but lost the ball when he went to the ground which is why it was an easy incompletion call.

However, I do remember that some Cal people on our sideline were gesturing pretty strongly after the replay call but I'd imagine that Sonny would've had to throw a challenge if the WR had full control over the ball and it was just a matter of feet in-bounds.

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That's correct - he caught the ball, but didn't maintain control as he hit the ground, so it's an incompletion - they changed that rule in college a few years ago (a bad rule if you ask me). I watched the referee on this play and he didn't signal until after Treggs hit the ground, rolled over, and lost control of the ball - then he signaled incomplete. Unfortunately, that is the correct call. The Pac-12 refs handling of the ASU game events is disgraceful, an incompetent showing once again.

pingpong2;842176778 said:

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It would appear a knee was indeed taken:



Regardless, the play was blown dead by the officials, so ASU should have been penalized with a delay of game for jumping on the ball after the whistle had already blown.

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After time ran out, I think the refs could have huddled, then thrown a flag for delay of game. Clearly a flag can be thrown after time expires. A game can't end on a defensive penalty so UW could have run its field goal team out there.

As an alternative, could the refs huddle up after time expires, then say, we want to review the kneel down, and put time on the clock? The next snap had not occurred, so they must have the ability to call for a replay (which seems to be one of the only ways time gets put back on the clock).

In any case, it was a make up call. UW got hosed on the last play but ASU got hosed on the catch and run up the sideline. It probably all worked out.

BobbyGBear;842178233 said:

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I for one actually have no problem with what the refs did. This was a coaching error. If you are losing with 18 seconds left and you don't have any timeouts you shouldn't run the ball and expect to have another play.

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Yes, coaching error, but that doesn't mean the referees then have license to screw up as well, that's just goofy logic.

tommie317;842177808 said:

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That was a goff fumble, no forward movement of the football, out before the motion started.

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it sure looked like a pass, we were looking straight at Goff, and his arm was in a passing motion. In slow motion maybe the ball was already out. My problem is the ref was completely out of position to make any call, especially without a replay.

StillNoStanfurdium;842178230 said:

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In regards to the TD pass rules incomplete, they didn't show a good replay in the stadium, but I heard some people near me saying that Treggs (I think it was Treggs) got his feet in but lost the ball when he went to the ground which is why it was an easy incompletion call.

However, I do remember that some Cal people on our sideline were gesturing pretty strongly after the replay call but I'd imagine that Sonny would've had to throw a challenge if the WR had full control over the ball and it was just a matter of feet in-bounds.

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Showed the WR in bounds and holding the ball. He may have lost the ball later, but it showed possession in slow mo. Further, both refs (one who was actually in position), waived he was out of bounds, not an incomplete pass, and many players were waiving at the booth for a replay. Maybe it wasn't ultimately a catch, but where the heck is the replay?????

wifeisafurd;842178262 said:

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it sure looked like a pass, we were looking straight at Goff, and his arm was in a passing motion. In slow motion maybe the ball was already out. My problem is the ref was completely out of position to make any call, especially without a replay.

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His arm may have kept going forward, but the ball was separated before it went forward at all. I think it was an easy fumble call.

ColoradoBear1;842177930 said:

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that was an unbelievable ending. pac 12 refs strike again. One day, and probaby sometime soon, big time teams are going to start to think twice about scheduling pac 12 teams due to the crappy refs and the insistence, against common practice, of using p12 refs for home games instead of neutral refs.

The question is what the correct response should be in that situation? On TV it was not at all obvious that the QB down the ball. It really looked like a live ball. If an ASU player jumps on that ball, you really can't blame him or penalize him. What the refs need to do is stop the clock, and discuss the situation and get it right.

That said, P12 ref incompetence set up wisky's drive. They got like 25 extra yards (into FG range) on that pass play where a players feet were out on consecutive steps.

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To quote Notre Dame fans last year on the weird calls in Notre Dame's last drive in regulation against Furd: "don't blame us, their your refs." Since when is tackling the QB (who is running down the middle of the field) a penalty? Yes, that was the call they announced to the crowd. One of many that had the Domers telling us "don't blame us...." Kept a Pac 12 team out of the NC game, and the Pac 12 out of better bowls.

UrsaMajor;842178231 said:

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According to the rules (any action toward downing...), he did take a knee regardless of whether or not the knee actually hit the ground. Once the whistles blew, the refs had to either: 1. stop the clock, or 2. penalize ASU for delay of game (lying on the ball). Where Wisky is partly culpable is that the QB shouldn't have put the ball down, he should have handed it to the ref; no doubt there and there would have been time for the spike and then FG.

Bottom line: Pac-12 refs continue to embarrass the conference despite Scott's efforts.

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Wait - if his knee is down, the play clock doesn't stop. It's a running play - the clock keeps winding down. In any event, the bottom line here is that wisky through their own greed allowed the p12 refs incompetence to get in the way which could have cost them the game (it's no guarantee that he makes the kick; likely sure). With 18 seconds left and no time outs in that scenario it's damned risky to run the ball in my opinion, and if you do - they didn't show a whole lot of urgency until 2 seconds left. It's much to risky for something screwy to happen. The correct call would have been to stop the clock for delay of game, but when I saw it live I thought it was a fumble also, so you can't really blame the asu players. It was an extremely awkward qb kneel.

Things happen all the time right as a whistle blows, or just after. The delay of game aspect of this is bogus. Everyone was confused and players can innocently fall on the ball when it's set down. If I were a defender, if you were a defender, if anyone on this planet were a defender in that situation, they would fall on the ball which was not downed and SHOULD have been ruled a fumble. I don't care if the announcers or anyone else claims he "gave himself up". He didn't. He thought his knee was down and he put the ball down. By this same argument, players who drop the ball just before the endzone are "giving themselves up" because they think they are in the endzone and thus the ball should be ruled down.

Alternatively, the refs could have simply stopped the clock if there was a pile up and they are trying to spot the ball. That happens every now and again when the defenders try to stall. It's NEVER called delay of game. They just stop the clock and make players get off the field.

Californication;842178315 said:

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Things happen all the time right as a whistle blows, or just after. The delay of game aspect of this is bogus. Everyone was confused and players can innocently fall on the ball when it's set down. If I were a defender, if you were a defender, if anyone on this planet were a defender in that situation, they would fall on the ball which was not downed and SHOULD have been ruled a fumble. I don't care if the announcers or anyone else claims he "gave himself up". He didn't. He thought his knee was down and he put the ball down. By this same argument, players who drop the ball just before the endzone are "giving themselves up" because they think they are in the endzone and thus the ball should be ruled down.

Alternatively, the refs could have simply stopped the clock if there was a pile up and they are trying to spot the ball. That happens every now and again when the defenders try to stall. It's NEVER called delay of game. They just stop the clock and make players get off the field.

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but his knee was down so it's more than just a thought.

A day and half later, what still kills me is the refs sprinting silently and quickly off the field without explaining their call. And everyone accepting that. Today I read the Pac 12 has reprimanded and scolded the officials. WTF. Not firing them? How frickin hard would it have been instead of running away like little children to take a deep breath, pause, look at the replay and make a call?
Isn't there a head official / boss of these officials on the sideline or somewhere nearby when they run off to tell them get back out there - you don't get to leave without providing an explanation? That's what us officials are paid for...