OK...I am really confused about why "the system" is so good

3,737 Views | 35 Replies | Last: 12 yr ago by ColoradoBear
socaltownie
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Honestly I just am not seeing what is so special about this. The flanker screen isn't that hard to defend. It is nigh impossible to run inside when we are in this stupid stand up stance. The "Big Bone" just SCREAMS run (nice Play action on Kline, BTW) and the rest of it just looks ordinary.

Seriously, what was LTech doing that was so special last year? I didn't get a chance to see this with every thing in...is it really that different?

(Please don't be sarcastic....I just am really confused how this offense was so potent)
mechaniCAL
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Mobile QB? Lower competition? Better oline? Who knows. What I do know is at this level scheming is necessary
Davidson
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oline is bad
so running is bad
so we can't score in the redzone

we fall behind, so we have to throw a lot more than we want

this is game 6.

let it grow

Mannion certainly wasn't this good as a freshman.
Tedford
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Dykes system doesn't work in the pac 12. It's why this was a joke of a hire from day one.
socaltownie
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Ok...but WHY doesn't it work in the Pac-12? I know we are all drunk but when we are sober again I would love to hear out this offense is designed to work (and thus why it doesn't once you get high quality CB and safeties.) Without seeing LT in action I can't really get it (though I am guessing that is the reason - and that with quality DBs you just don't have the problems a WAC team has....or we would this year trying to defend it.
dimitrig
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Tedford;842201945 said:

Dykes system doesn't work in the pac 12. It's why this was a joke of a hire from day one.



Texas Tech killed a good Cal team with it, but more importantly Dykes had good success at Arizona as OC.
socaltownie
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dimitrig;842201972 said:

Texas Tech killed a good Cal team with it, but more importantly Dykes had good success at Arizona as OC.


Did Tech really run the full version? Cause what I saw at the Holiday Bowl was just a lot of flanker screens....which teams have now learned how to blow up unless the ball comes out REALLY fast.
SigOtherIsATrojan
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dimitrig;842201972 said:

Texas Tech killed a good Cal team with it, but more importantly Dykes had good success at Arizona as OC.


Ooooh, yipeee, texas tech had a good game against cal 9 years ago under Mike Leach. The University of Arizona had marginal success with Dykes as an offensive coordinator.

With those credentials, I now get the Dyke hire.

This was a joke hire. A program that is serious about college football doesn't make this hire. A reach, and a joke. Sandy dug her own grave.
The415
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LA tech had the best running game in the country last year , complete opposite of us......plus they played in the WAC
socaltownie
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The415;842202017 said:

LA tech had the best running game in the country last year , complete opposite of us......plus they played in the WAC


Do you need a guy that can hit holes well? that is one thing I see - a stable of backs that don't seem to have great first step acceleration. Which makes sense - as you simply are not going to be able to get great push with this scheme - instead relying on holes that open and close quickly because you are in the stupid stand up stance.
BeachyBear
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socaltownie;842201981 said:

Did Tech really run the full version? Cause what I saw at the Holiday Bowl was just a lot of flanker screens....which teams have now learned how to blow up unless the ball comes out REALLY fast.


Tech's still running it, and they're almost in the top ten. UofA had a lot of success on O with it too. And hate on LaTech all you want but their O competed with everyone. This team... WTF?? Using the "WAC coach" argument is BS because this team couldn't beat ANYBODY in the WAC and last year's LA Tech team would destroy this team.

And BTW that LaTech team would have destroyed last year's Tedford team as well.

But this offense... OMG we suck. So it worked at UofA, lights up at TTech, works at other places but here...? Utter disaster.

Soooooooooo... What IS going on? It's a good question. Aholes who claim they knew all along this was a bad hire don't have the answer, because they're idiots and just plain wrong about history and the success of spread offenses. This is bizarre.
dimitrig
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SigOtherIsATrojan;842202007 said:

Ooooh, yipeee, texas tech had a good game against cal 9 years ago under Mike Leach. The University of Arizona had marginal success with Dykes as an offensive coordinator.

With those credentials, I now get the Dyke hire.

This was a joke hire. A program that is serious about college football doesn't make this hire. A reach, and a joke. Sandy dug her own grave.



I'm just saying you can have a team win a bowl game with this scheme, which seems about 100x above where this Cal team is going to end up. It's not all about the system. Where did Cal end up last year with Tedford's pro set?
freshfunk
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Tedford offense: too complex, too varied, too many plays. Our own players couldn't learn it

Sonny offfense: too simple, no variety, plays can be counted on two hands. Our opponents learn how to defend it pretty easily.

:headbang
socaltownie
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BeachyBear;842202021 said:

Tech's still running it, and they're almost in the top ten. UofA had a lot of success on O with it too. And hate on LaTech all you want but their O competed with everyone. This team... WTF?? Using the "WAC coach" argument is BS because this team couldn't beat ANYBODY in the WAC and last year's LA Tech team would destroy this team.

And BTW that LaTech team would have destroyed last year's Tedford team as well.

But this offense... OMG we suck. So it worked at UofA, lights up at TTech, works at other places but here...? Utter disaster.

Soooooooooo... What IS going on? It's a good question. Aholes who claim they knew all along this was a bad hire don't have the answer, because they're idiots and just plain wrong about history and the success of spread offenses. This is bizarre.


What it LOOKs like to me is that you have to have three things. (but maybe that is the TASTY shiraz talking. One glass to go and the bottle's done)

A) WR who can block. Our guys are good route runners and catchers but they lack the blocking skills to make the WR screens work great. KA would have been fantastic in this offense if he would have been willing to block for others (and let someone else than his brother toss it). We will need to recruit size and strength on the outside.

B) RB who are quick on the first step and shed tackles. I just don't see this offensive scheme EVER being able to pound the rock by getting a 3 yard push and opening up huge holes on basic line blocking schemes. You just can't DO IT from a stand up stance. So I am assuming this is all about creating angles and allowiing the RB to hit a hole QUICKLY before the LB and Safeties close to the LoS. If they do, I am guessing the RB in the system needs to be able to take the first hit and get a good lean for an additional 2 yards after contact.

C) Clear possession receiver. I think you have to have a guy who can drive the defenders back and get the 9 yard toss on the curl. We SORTA have that - but not as much as it would be ideal.

Is this right? Is is a missing pieces issue which we can recruit for?
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie;842201891 said:

Honestly I just am not seeing what is so special about this. The flanker screen isn't that hard to defend. It is nigh impossible to run inside when we are in this stupid stand up stance. The "Big Bone" just SCREAMS run (nice Play action on Kline, BTW) and the rest of it just looks ordinary.

Seriously, what was LTech doing that was so special last year? I didn't get a chance to see this with every thing in...is it really that different?

(Please don't be sarcastic....I just am really confused how this offense was so potent)


This is what some of us were trying to tell people who were expecting the offense to be good right away because of the ridiculous story that you can install it in a day. It is a very simple offense true. But it requires excellent execution. It works well in high school because since it is simple, the offense can execute it well against a generally poorly executed defense. The margin of error is greater. As you get to a higher and higher level, your execution has to be that much better. At Cal's level, you better execute it nearly perfectly.

You need a QB that makes the right decision every time and makes it quickly. You need 4 receivers that execute their routes and timing perfectly. You need your receivers to block very well. You need them to have a high level of trust in each other that usually only comes with playing with each other a lot. They need to stick to their routes, make their blocks, stick to their lanes, etc. If they do all that, it is extremely hard to stop because the offense has made its play before the defense can react. Then you methodically go down the field in 5-10 yard chunks.

Why was LaTech so good at it last year? 5th year QB. Top 3 receivers were in their 5th years. #4 receiver was in his 4th year. That is why. What did Dykes do without that set up? his other two years were:

59 in scoring offense, 49 in total offense
42 in scoring offense, 51 in total offense

What did Dykes do at Arizona?:

56 in scoring offense, 67 in total offense
16 in scoring offense, 33 in total offense
60 in scoring offense, 58 in total offense

That second year, UA had senior Tuitama at QB and Senior WR Mike Thomas. They also had Gronkowski.

See the pattern? Dykes' offense has been very ordinary without tons of experience. The "good" news is, we should be outstanding in 2015 with the number of freshmen and sophomores we have playing major minutes on offense this year. Problem is, it will probably be a peak season.

Right now, we have a freshman QB which means he can't make the right decision fast enough. We have 2 good receivers in Harper and Treggs, and a decent one in Rodgers, and even they are better going down the field than running the mesh routes and screens. Our receivers are terrible blockers and outside blocking is crucial both to make the run work and to spring receivers on screens. The timing is not close to there either. Because of this, we have some formations that we can pass in, but are incapable of running in, and some formations we can run in but are incapable of passing in.

Frankly, what has me worried is that even the most basic execution is still in its infancy. We have hard working receivers they shouldn't be so bad at blocking when it is so important. I expect there to be execution issues. Hell, I predicted it. But there are execution issues up and down the lineup on both sides of the ball. We should be better right now.
socaltownie
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Oaktown - that is god awful depressing.

How soon to BB? I hear the 5 frosh were simply outstanding - with the sleeper Sam Singer amazing.
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie;842202019 said:

Do you need a guy that can hit holes well? that is one thing I see - a stable of backs that don't seem to have great first step acceleration. Which makes sense - as you simply are not going to be able to get great push with this scheme - instead relying on holes that open and close quickly because you are in the stupid stand up stance.


No, that isn't it. It's not that our RB's can't hit the hole. The offense isn't designed for them to. The running game is an east-west running game unless you are in the big bone. Our outside blocking is terrible.

The running backs are not the problem.
socaltownie
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OaktownBear;842202055 said:

No, that isn't it. It's not that our RB's can't hit the hole. The offense isn't designed for them to. The running game is an east-west running game unless you are in the big bone. Our outside blocking is terrible.

The running backs are not the problem.


So you are trying to get to the edge and we just can't create the leverage? that makes sense....sad though since our guys have speed (if not the ability to play through contact)
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie;842202054 said:

Oaktown - that is god awful depressing.

How soon to BB? I hear the 5 frosh were simply outstanding - with the sleeper Sam Singer amazing.


This is also why we stink in the redzone. With the shorte field, you have to execute your routes that much better, and the defenses can basically double Harper and Treggs, not worry about the running game, and make our lesser WR's beat them, which, they never do.
Richard_Lee
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sigotherisatrojan;842202007 said:

ooooh, yipeee, texas tech had a good game against cal 9 years ago under mike leach. The university of arizona had marginal success with dykes as an offensive coordinator.

With those credentials, i now get the dyke hire.

This was a joke hire. A program that is serious about college football doesn't make this hire. A reach, and a joke. Sandy dug her own grave.




+500
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaltownie;842202060 said:

So you are trying to get to the edge and we just can't create the leverage? that makes sense....sad though since our guys have speed (if not the ability to play through contact)


Honestly, I think Coprich is our most effective runner in the offense, such as it is, right now. He seems to be the best at fighting through contact.

I must say, I don't get the two point stance on the O-Line the way the offense is structured. I'd prefer the wide splits that Leach uses to create running lanes for cutbacks, if we are going to run the Air Raid.
Big C
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Trials and tribulations of being a Cal fan:

One year our offense is so complex it takes five years to master.

The next year our offense is so simple it takes five years be able to execute it perfectly.
dimitrig
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Big C_Cal;842202085 said:

Trials and tribulations of being a Cal fan:

One year our offense is so complex it takes five years to master.

The next year our offense is so simple it takes five years be able to execute it perfectly.


The youth is why we assumed this team would blow.

Team's with upperclassmen as QBs tend to do very well - except the last few years under Tedford.
BearlyCareAnymore
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dimitrig;842201972 said:

Texas Tech killed a good Cal team with it, but more importantly Dykes had good success at Arizona as OC.


Again, this is what Dykes did at UA:

56 in scoring offense, 67 in total offense
16 in scoring offense, 33 in total offense
60 in scoring offense, 58 in total offense

2 out of his 3 years, Cal's offense was statistically better. His good year was with a senior QB, a very good senior WR, and an all star at TE. This board became convinced by a BS Cal press release trumping up his record at UA. When you actually read the release it says precious little about what he actually did there. His actual record does not indicate the kind of success we need.

And I'm going to add, again. Dykes has never coached on a team, at any level, at any coaching position, that won more than 9 games. Ever. Why would we think he would jump up a level and become elite?

Sandy seemed to be set on someone who was a head coach, but couldn't afford to pay a good one. In that circumstance, I'd much prefer a hot shot coordinator on the way up then a head coach who has proven his level.
GMP
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Tedford;842201945 said:

Dykes system doesn't work in the pac 12. It's why this was a joke of a hire from day one.


Really poor post. Dykes' offense almost beat Texas A&M last year. It can beat good defenses. We just do not have the talent right now to do it - especially on the offensive line.
dimitrig
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OaktownBear;842202103 said:

Again, this is what Dykes did at UA:
This board became convinced by a BS Cal press release trumping up his record at UA. When you actually read the release it says precious little about what he actually did there. His actual record does not indicate the kind of success we need.




Arizona beat a 9 win Cal team so clearly the system can work.

Is this about the coach or the system?
mechaniCAL
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Is it me or we switch offensive personal way too often... Seems like every other play subbing in new receivers/RB...which leads to lack of consistency and often predictability (like when Bigs would come in it was almost always a screen pass to him). Our "hurry up" offense is not that fast where guys are getting tired so quickly...
mechaniCAL
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Also Kam mentioned during his press interview that the game plan was to treat Cooks like any other receiver... Wtf is that! Everyone know how good he is why wouldn't you change something up to compensate for his skills... Like double covering, etc... Way too many 1-1 with him tonite bad game plan (Boo)
Bear_Territory
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mechaniCAL;842202131 said:

Also Kam mentioned during his press interview that the game plan was to treat Cooks like any other receiver... Wtf is that! Everyone know how good he is why wouldn't you change something up to compensate for his skills... Like double covering, etc... Way too many 1-1 with him tonite bad game plan (Boo)


I saw that too, but I think it was coach speak for, Hey we don't have enough DBs to play nickle against a team that passes 95% of the time so we need to hope for the best with 1 on 1s
BearlyCareAnymore
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dimitrig;842202117 said:

Arizona beat a 9 win Cal team so clearly the system can work.

Is this about the coach or the system?


No one is saying you can't win a game. Tedford beat UCLA last year. I gave you the stats for what UA's offense did under Dykes. It is not impressive. You said he was successful at UA. I'd submit that he was not.
SchadenBear
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socaltownie;842201891 said:

Seriously, what was LTech doing that was so special last year?


Playing against poor defenses.
slotright20
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That La Tech team had more talent at the skill positions than this Cal team and a decent quarterback. The year before that La.Tech had two defensive ends you would kill for. My point is there are a lot of talented football players in La. and East Texas who can get into La. Tech academically and that is as politely as I can say it.

Second the base formation for Tech last year was a qb set deep with two pretty good rb behind him on either side. Cal does not have the personnel to run that formation.

Third, the Franklin system is not the Leach system or what is being run at Tech today. The line splits are a lot wider to open not so much running lanes, but passing lanes. The Leach system is more of a run and shoot with receivers reading coverages more and going to space - this offense, not nearly as much. Part of what has happened since Ohio State is certainly some injuries on offense but more than anything else, I think at the end of the Buckeye game, most of our plays had been run- defenses have pretty much seen it all on film and coordinators picked it to the bone.

Finally, I am open to the possibility that one or more of our linemen are tipping plays pre snap. The guards and center have three very distinctive techniques - quick pass - hitch, slant; screen; mid range to deep pass. I sense Beavers knew something pre- snap last night.

I do not want to debate semantics - watch a Texas Tech game ( frosh qbs - one a walk on) and then a Cal game. Look at line splits ( Franklin wants to run outside), look at extent backs are used as receivers, look at number of audibles and how many are to a run, look at technique of guards and center - think you will Tech system more fluid. Also compare athleticism of OL.
heartofthebear
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mechaniCAL;842201897 said:

Mobile QB? Lower competition? Better oline? Who knows. What I do know is at this level scheming is necessary


I totally agree with this. The coaches say that they don't care if the other team knows what they are running. Well, this is the Pac-12. Most teams have really fast athletic players on D. If those guys know what is coming, they will defend us every time. And that is what we are seeing. OSU does not have a good D. But they knew what was coming and there you have it.
CaliforniaGoldenBear
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socaltownie;842201891 said:


Seriously, what was LTech doing that was so special last year?

Playing weak teams.
socaltownie
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CaliforniaGoldenBear;842202345 said:

Playing weak teams.


That is what terrifies me....that "the system" works against DBs that have no shot at the NFL because they simply are too slow to close to the open space and thus you get lots of YAC. But the pac-12 - more than even a lot of other power conferences, is chalk full of quality DBs - in part because so many of them come of age in west coast HS football that is a bit more pass oriented than some other places in the country (though that is rapidly changing).
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