:cheer

bear cass;842222034 said:

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:cheer

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While it beats last year's crappy football and probation worthy grades, the football has to get better, too.

It's reasonable to believe that with the right emphasis that the grades would be easier to fix than on field issues, which is what makes the Tedford regime's having us on the doorstep of NCAA sanctions all the more puzzling.

HaloBear;842222088 said:

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While it beats last year's crappy football and probation worthy grades, the football has to get better, too.

It's reasonable to believe that with the right emphasis that the grades would be easier to fix than on field issues, which is what makes the Tedford regime's having us on the doorstep of NCAA sanctions all the more puzzling.

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Looking at the issues surrounding the players from the 2010 recruiting class, I'm increasingly convinced that Tedford wasn't emphasizing academics in his recruiting. I think he was too worried about the on field performance and the fact that the team was getting out athlete on a regular basis. That class had a number of great athletes, but appears to also have had a lot of academically questionable recruits. Less than 50% of that class is still with the team now, which left Dykes with a lot of work to do.

Stanford under Harbaugh went out to recruit players who wanted to be at an elite institution and built the program around intelligent driven players who woud play hardnosed football. I don't know if that is Dykes long term goal at Cal (it should be), but its clear from the recruiting Dykes did that he is looking or intelligent players. I expect that this problem will self-correct with a coach that looks for disciplined players first.

Unfortunately, we seem to have to suffer through a year from hell before we see if Dykes can really make forward progress.

Lots of Cal students get good grades. My hope was that these 75 or so students could get good grades and still win intercollegiate football games.

mvargus;842222091 said:

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Stanford under Harbaugh went out to recruit players who wanted to be at an elite institution and built the program around intelligent driven players who woud play hardnosed football. I don't know if that is Dykes long term goal at Cal (it should be), but its clear from the recruiting Dykes did that he is looking or intelligent players. I expect that this problem will self-correct with a coach that looks for disciplined players first.

Unfortunately, we seem to have to suffer through a year from hell before we see if Dykes can really make forward progress.

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In another thread I commented about the Furd recruiting niche and it was largely to combat this sort of "magical thinking". CAL IS NOT FURD. I don't think most of this site understands just how different they are. Not sure why....maybe you applied to both so they seem the same in your mind?

Just one metric to start - Furd's undergraduate population is 7,000. Berkeley's is 24,000. Unless you went to a smaller school (and 7K is smaller) I don't think you really understand what that difference translates into in respect to faculty contact, the lack of diversity, the more "traditional" brick and ivy feel to the place, etc. etc. It just is a vastly different experience - and one that is replicated by VERY few division 1 football schools.

At 24,000 Berkeley is much more akin, in undergraduate EXPERIENCE (note I did not say degree value or education) to schools like Texas, Ohio State or Michigan. Big. Very diverse. Limited contact with faculty. Broader academic opportunities. Less hand holding and student support.

I also tend to think (and this is critical) that we just don't really compete with the Furd head to head for most student athletes. Remember, these kids are NOT competing to "get in" (like 99% of those on this site). They already HAVE been admitted. It fundamentally flips the psychology. We compete in recruiting with the UCLAs of the world. They compete with....well I think Notre Dame and that is about it.

That doesn't diminish the rivalry and the importance of the Axe. It isn't to attack posters who applied to both institutions. But it does say that by trying to "be Furd" is probably not really productive because we will never "be them" (and, conversely, they can not compete with US for kids that are just very very uncomfortable sitting in a lilly white ultra-affluent suburb some 40 minutes from anything resemebling an urban setting and with their class mates thinking about whether to ski this year in the Italian or French alps and if during one day their quads are too tired if they can make it down to the women's center to help organize a protest against exploitative capitalism and whether, if they do, they can list it on their resume.)

The Duke!;842222112 said:

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Lots of Cal students get good grades. My hope was that these 75 or so students could get good grades and still win intercollegiate football games.

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win the intramural hacky-sack league I really don't care how well Cal football players do in school as long as they do well enough to keep us bowl eligible and able to keep our full allotment of football scholarships. I hope they care to do well in school. I hope their parents care. I hope their friends care. I hope their teachers care.

As I've said numerous times, no one cared when I had to drop out of Cal after playing one year of baseball (to avoid a bunch of Fs). Luckily my parents cared and I cared.

PS. This is what makes Cal a great, tough school. It's all up to you. You learn a lot of lessons in this environment.

82gradDLSdad;842222117 said:

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win the intramural hacky-sack league I really don't care how well Cal football players do in school as long as they do well enough to keep us bowl eligible and able to keep our full allotment of football scholarships. I hope they care to do well in school. I hope their parents care. I hope their friends care. I hope their teachers care.

As I've said numerous times, no one cared when I had to drop out of Cal after playing one year of baseball (to avoid a bunch of Fs). Luckily my parents cared and I cared.

PS. This is what makes Cal a great, tough school. It's all up to you. You learn a lot of lessons in this environment.

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Hmmm.....Maybe it is the word "cared" but I can tell you why I follow college sports is, in part, for stories like Jorge or Jerome and how athletics provided them opportunities (which THEY seized) that would not have been there otherwise. Maybe it is the fact that I am a cal fan (and thus conditioned to root for underdogs) but those are the moments that make me "care" more than the transitory feel good feelings after a W.

socaltownie;842222113 said:

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In another thread I commented about the Furd recruiting niche and it was largely to combat this sort of "magical thinking". CAL IS NOT FURD. I don't think most of this site understands just how different they are. Not sure why....maybe you applied to both so they seem the same in your mind?

Just one metric to start - Furd's undergraduate population is 7,000. Berkeley's is 24,000. Unless you went to a smaller school (and 7K is smaller) I don't think you really understand what that difference translates into in respect to faculty contact, the lack of diversity, the more "traditional" brick and ivy feel to the place, etc. etc. It just is a vastly different experience - and one that is replicated by VERY few division 1 football schools.

At 24,000 Berkeley is much more akin, in undergraduate EXPERIENCE (note I did not say degree value or education) to schools like Texas, Ohio State or Michigan. Big. Very diverse. Limited contact with faculty. Broader academic opportunities. Less hand holding and student support.

I also tend to think (and this is critical) that we just don't really compete with the Furd head to head for most student athletes. Remember, these kids are NOT competing to "get in" (like 99% of those on this site). They already HAVE been admitted. It fundamentally flips the psychology. We compete in recruiting with the UCLAs of the world. They compete with....well I think Notre Dame and that is about it.

That doesn't diminish the rivalry and the importance of the Axe. It isn't to attack posters who applied to both institutions. But it does say that by trying to "be Furd" is probably not really productive because we will never "be them" (and, conversely, they can not compete with US for kids that are just very very uncomfortable sitting in a lilly white ultra-affluent suburb some 40 minutes from anything resemebling an urban setting and with their class mates thinking about whether to ski this year in the Italian or French alps and if during one day their quads are too tired if they can make it down to the women's center to help organize a protest against exploitative capitalism and whether, if they do, they can list it on their resume.)

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I don't think we should necessarily go head-to-head for the same recruits Stanford goes after. what I pointed out was that Stanford looked for and continues to look for recruits who are not just football players. They want intelligent and driven young men who are going to put in a full effort. I've noticed that Stanford doesn't have a lot of extremely athletic prima-donnas.

That is what I think Cal coaches need to think about when recruiting. Someiimes you end up with a choice between the 6-2/200# star safety who barely gets by in class and has poor practice and study habits, or you can pick up a 5-11/185# kid who needs 2 years to grow into his body, but is getting a 3.68 GPA and already puts an extra 30 minutes a day in the weight room to maximize his potential. the 6-2 guy will have more stars and probably appear better, but in 3 years that 5-11 guy could turn into an all-American and all-scholastic player while the 6-2 guy gets injured and worse, fails out because of his lack of study habits. [yes, this is an extreme example, but in a way we saw that in 2010, all of the WRs in that class couldn't meet the UC Berkeley entrance requirements, so in the end none worked out for Cal.]

socaltownie;842222113 said:

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In another thread I commented about the Furd recruiting niche and it was largely to combat this sort of "magical thinking". CAL IS NOT FURD. I don't think most of this site understands just how different they are. Not sure why....maybe you applied to both so they seem the same in your mind?

Just one metric to start - Furd's undergraduate population is 7,000. Berkeley's is 24,000. Unless you went to a smaller school (and 7K is smaller) I don't think you really understand what that difference translates into in respect to faculty contact, the lack of diversity, the more "traditional" brick and ivy feel to the place, etc. etc. It just is a vastly different experience - and one that is replicated by VERY few division 1 football schools.

At 24,000 Berkeley is much more akin, in undergraduate EXPERIENCE (note I did not say degree value or education) to schools like Texas, Ohio State or Michigan. Big. Very diverse. Limited contact with faculty. Broader academic opportunities. Less hand holding and student support.

I also tend to think (and this is critical) that we just don't really compete with the Furd head to head for most student athletes. Remember, these kids are NOT competing to "get in" (like 99% of those on this site). They already HAVE been admitted. It fundamentally flips the psychology. We compete in recruiting with the UCLAs of the world. They compete with....well I think Notre Dame and that is about it.

That doesn't diminish the rivalry and the importance of the Axe. It isn't to attack posters who applied to both institutions. But it does say that by trying to "be Furd" is probably not really productive because we will never "be them" (and, conversely, they can not compete with US for kids that are just very very uncomfortable sitting in a lilly white ultra-affluent suburb some 40 minutes from anything resemebling an urban setting and with their class mates thinking about whether to ski this year in the Italian or French alps and if during one day their quads are too tired if they can make it down to the women's center to help organize a protest against exploitative capitalism and whether, if they do, they can list it on their resume.)

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I appreciate your input, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusion about "experience."

What makes Berkeley so unique, in my opinion, is that YOU CRAFT your experience. It's like life in many ways, your choices determine your outcome. Unlike other places that institutionalize a standard college experience for all, Berkeley allows students the opportunity to create their own college experience.

If someone wants an intimate academic experience, with a lot of professor contact (like an Ivy), mentorship, and access to world class alumni you can have it. If you want to show up to large lectures, be anonymous to professors, and herd through classes, you can. Want handholding? It's there, but you have to be proactive and ask for it.

I think this is the thing that truly sets Cal apart from most other World Class Universities. True, you can't be anonymous at Furd, but you can certainly create an intimate college experience at Cal. I certainly did. I still know the majority of my professors (and gsi's) personally. I have a core group of friends that are all still in contact. I had a personal academic counselor guide me through all my classes (I started in Econ and changed to an interdisciplinary major that combined Haas, Engineering, and History). As a frame of reference, I did my undergrad at Cal and I received my MBA from Cornell, so I also understand the small communal experience of an Ivy League school (The Johnson School has fewer than 1000, granted the Cornell undergrad population is pretty large - and yes, I am a Harvard reject).

The key, and this is what our coaches have to sell, is that the CHOICE was mine. Our student athletes have an academic experience open to them that is absolutely remarkable. I chose to engage with the faculty, attend events and lectures, work in the athletic department, participate in IM sports, meet people people on campus like Marc Andreessn (Netscape), Paul Otellini (Intel), Paul Jacobs (Qualcomm), the Dalai Lama, and countless others, party, watch good football ('04-'07) and the like. I also have friends that cannot name one of their professors, didn't engage with campus, and never met any guest lecturers, but loved their time at Cal and are doing really, really well for themselves. Same school, different experiences.

If someone wants an Ivy League experience, you can have it at Cal, I promise you! Now will it be handed to you a la Furd? No, because it is not the default. But that's not to say it's not available. To say you can't have a "small school" experience at Berkeley means you simply don't know all that Berkeley offers. I would argue the college experience possibilities available at Cal are far greater those available on the Farm (save football at the moment) or any school, but our coaches need to know how to communicate that to potential recruits. Keep in mind, I am very biased and the only university I applied to was Cal. It was Berkeley or bust for me.

Go Bears!!!

:axe

The Duke!;842222112 said:

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Lots of Cal students get good grades. My hope was that these 75 or so students could get good grades and still win intercollegiate football games.

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These guys get good grades and could possibly play CAL Football...ha ha.

mvargus;842222125 said:

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I don't think we should necessarily go head-to-head for the same recruits Stanford goes after. what I pointed out was that Stanford looked for and continues to look for recruits who are not just football players. They want intelligent and driven young men who are going to put in a full effort. I've noticed that Stanford doesn't have a lot of extremely athletic prima-donnas.

That is what I think Cal coaches need to think about when recruiting. Someiimes you end up with a choice between the 6-2/200# star safety who barely gets by in class and has poor practice and study habits, or you can pick up a 5-11/185# kid who needs 2 years to grow into his body, but is getting a 3.68 GPA and already puts an extra 30 minutes a day in the weight room to maximize his potential. the 6-2 guy will have more stars and probably appear better, but in 3 years that 5-11 guy could turn into an all-American and all-scholastic player while the 6-2 guy gets injured and worse, fails out because of his lack of study habits. [yes, this is an extreme example, but in a way we saw that in 2010, all of the WRs in that class couldn't meet the UC Berkeley entrance requirements, so in the end none worked out for Cal.]

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I agree, we are not Stanford, but that doesn't mean we can't now attempt to get more qualified recruits. The problem is, predicting academic success at Cal with the high school experience that some elite athletes have or get. As a high school teacher, I have seen it. GPAs and even SATs can be manipulated. Course loads obviously differ. Tutoring and assistance differs. Motivation changes and evolves once a high school recruit leaves the cocoon of high school. It is very difficult. Character, on the other hand, can be fairly obvious and often "helps" in looking at "how" a recruit may achieve at Cal. Our GPA is up because Sonny, our whoever, has moved our players into more agreeable courses..something all schools do for their football players. I wouldn't get too excited about our so-called "better grades." I would be more excited at our better play..That's just me. I grew up with football players, right into college, and know the football mind, whatever little there is of it!

id wait until this year's APR scores come out before i make this claim

cal2014deca;842222163 said:

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These guys get good grades and could possibly play CAL Football...ha ha.

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They definitely look more intimidating than our football team.

cal2014deca;842222163 said:

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These guys get good grades and could possibly play CAL Football...ha ha.

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... is holding Cal's version of the 'glove'. It's just a prototype mind you but as you can see it did transform these guys into grown ass men who Sonny has stated are what's needed to win in the Pac 12. Here's a before picture of this same group:



Kinks are still being worked out as you can see. Some of the transformations made were not desired or expected. I hear version 2.0 is awesome.

F the glove.

mvargus;842222091 said:

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Looking at the issues surrounding the players from the 2010 recruiting class, I'm increasingly convinced that [COLOR="Red"]Tedford wasn't emphasizing academics in his recruiting. [/COLOR] I think he was too worried about the on field performance and the fact that the team was getting out athlete on a regular basis. That class had a number of great athletes, but appears to also have had a lot of [COLOR="Red"]academically questionable recruits. [/COLOR] Less than 50% of that class is still with the team now, which left Dykes with a lot of work to do.

Stanford under Harbaugh went out to recruit players who wanted to be at an elite institution and built the program around [COLOR="Red"]intelligent driven players[/COLOR] who woud play hardnosed football. I don't know if that is Dykes long term goal at Cal (it should be), but its clear from the recruiting Dykes did that he is looking or [COLOR="Red"]intell[COLOR="Red"]igent players.[/COLOR][/COLOR] I expect that this problem will self-correct with a coach that looks for disciplined players first.

Unfortunately, we seem to have to suffer through a year from hell before we see if Dykes can really make forward progress.

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Would you mind explaining these highlighted terms for me? I have always wondered "how" coaches determine a high school player's intelligence sufficiently to be held responsible for them in college..Thanks.

Cal07;842222161 said:

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I appreciate your input, but I respectfully disagree with your conclusion about "experience."

What makes Berkeley so unique, in my opinion, is that YOU CRAFT your experience. It's like life in many ways, your choices determine your outcome. Unlike other places that institutionalize a standard college experience for all, Berkeley allows students the opportunity to create their own college experience.

If someone wants an intimate academic experience, with a lot of professor contact (like an Ivy), mentorship, and access to world class alumni you can have it. If you want to show up to large lectures, be anonymous to professors, and herd through classes, you can. Want handholding? It's there, but you have to be proactive and ask for it.

I think this is the thing that truly sets Cal apart from most other World Class Universities. True, you can't be anonymous at Furd, but you can certainly create an intimate college experience at Cal. I certainly did. I still know the majority of my professors (and gsi's) personally. I have a core group of friends that are all still in contact. I had a personal academic counselor guide me through all my classes (I started in Econ and changed to an interdisciplinary major that combined Haas, Engineering, and History). As a frame of reference, I did my undergrad at Cal and I received my MBA from Cornell, so I also understand the small communal experience of an Ivy League school (The Johnson School has fewer than 1000, granted the Cornell undergrad population is pretty large - and yes, I am a Harvard reject).

The key, and this is what our coaches have to sell, is that the CHOICE was mine. Our student athletes have an academic experience open to them that is absolutely remarkable. I chose to engage with the faculty, attend events and lectures, work in the athletic department, participate in IM sports, meet people people on campus like Marc Andreessn (Netscape), Paul Otellini (Intel), Paul Jacobs (Qualcomm), the Dalai Lama, and countless others, party, watch good football ('04-'07) and the like. I also have friends that cannot name one of their professors, didn't engage with campus, and never met any guest lecturers, but loved their time at Cal and are doing really, really well for themselves. Same school, different experiences.

If someone wants an Ivy League experience, you can have it at Cal, I promise you! Now will it be handed to you a la Furd? No, because it is not the default. But that's not to say it's not available. To say you can't have a "small school" experience at Berkeley means you simply don't know all that Berkeley offers. I would argue the college experience possibilities available at Cal are far greater those available on the Farm (save football at the moment) or any school, but our coaches need to know how to communicate that to potential recruits. Keep in mind, I am very biased and the only university I applied to was Cal. It was Berkeley or bust for me.

Go Bears!!!

:axe

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Good for you. Couple of observations. Small schools, largely, don't use GSI's....or at least for the vast majority of upper division courses. The fact that you mention them is telling. That is really what separates a place like Furd from a place like Cal. Without going into a long digression as to why - it is a function of a 24,000 student undergraduate body and the reward structures at a public research university for faculty. What sets places apart with undergrad populations about 6K and less is that there are VERY few large lecture classes. It is (and can be) seminars from day one.

Now can students make the effort and break that down? Of course they can. They should. Shame on them that they don't. But many don't and when the recruits start talking to the existing team I am guessing that a distant lecture-listener relationships between student and faculty is much more the norm than the exception.

I have had the pleasure of teaching and attending both large and small and both privates and publics. Cal is a great institution. But it is different than a smallish private school located in a very affluent suburb. Just is. Don't try to be like it....celebrate the differences.

Oh let me finish with this. It is clear from the behavior of faculty at Furd that there are institutional rewards for interacting and developing relationships with Students. There are ABSOLUTELY NONE at the UCs (when it comes to undergrads). Great that some faculty do that but the rewards are almost entirely weighted toward publishing record and (since that helps publishing record) mentoring graduate students. If you studied econ you know, incentives matter.

And we know they're getting good grades...how?

KevBear;842222539 said:

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And we know they're getting good grades...how?

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It was really just sarcasm.

72CalBear;842222165 said:

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I grew up with football players, right into college, and know the football mind, whatever little there is of it!

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Have you revealed a little too much?