Darby;842251003 said:

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How many were starters at UF? A back up QB and some stiffs transferring at UF is not equivalent to losing your highest rated freshman and a cornerstone like KamJack. That is two huge holes on the D depth chart for next year.

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If the highest rated frosh u are referring to is Kline, a blind squirrel can find the b.s. in your argument.

Actually Kline was the highest rated in his class, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ragin, who was the highest rated defensive recruit in this class.

It's hilarious seeing people try to spin this as a positive, "oh but we need to clean house". We just lost by far our best CB. Yeah I doubt he'll be drafted too, but he's a good corner who could have started for half the teams in the Pac12. We're hurting for CB's bad; I mean we saw what happened when we lost 2 decent cornerbacks the year before.

freshfunk;842250974 said:

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Why? So you can lynch them as well? One is a bearent and the other is friends with a player. Even if I posted their names, would you believe it any more than you do now?

I openly said it was a rumor and heard second hand. People can decide for themselves what to think... Much like when we heard rumors that Tosh had split and told Shaq to come with him. Or rumors that Tedford was being let go. Or rumors that Kiesau was leaving. Those, too, started as negative rumors.

Look at my history and you'll see that over the years I've rooted for this program to succeed. But I also believe in the truth, even if it's negative, because that's the only way to long term success. Anything negative will be seen as "trashing the program" but the truth is the results already speak for themselves.

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Not worth your time.

calbearo;842251021 said:

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Actually Kline was the highest rated in his class, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to Ragin, who was the highest rated defensive recruit in this class.

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Ragin was not the highest rated recruit, defensive or otherwise, in his class, so I assumed he meant Kline. Scout rates him somewhat highly (though still 3 star) and Rivals puts him as a low/mid 3 star.

Darby;842251003 said:

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How many were starters at Cal? A back up QB and some stiffs transferring at Cal...

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Fixed it for you and it still makes sense.

Cal has had some real clowns as head coaches over the years.

Really rotten head coaches.

But the dykester is blowing everything up so that he will get top billing.

Go dykester go.....

Darby;842251003 said:

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How many were starters at UF? A back up QB and some stiffs transferring at UF is not equivalent to losing your highest rated freshman and a cornerstone like KamJack. That is two huge holes on the D depth chart for next year.

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I made no evaluation, just stated a fact about another school with a bad season. It happens. I am not excited about losing any player. Not excited about keeping any coach.
When i was in school (not Cal) we had our best basketball player go pro. Great college player but did not have a pro game and ended up not doing squat. But the assistant coach said essentially that he wasnt going to retain eligibility, so that made the decision for him. Rarely do we know even half the story.

biely medved;842251056 said:

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I made no evaluation, just stated a fact about another school with a bad season. It happens. I am not excited about losing any player. Not excited about keeping any coach.
When i was in school (not Cal) we had our best basketball player go pro. Great college player but did not have a pro game and ended up not doing squat. But the assistant coach said essentially that he wasnt going to retain eligibility, so that made the decision for him. Rarely do we know even half the story.

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Amen. Not mentioned is the possibility that he is looking over his shoulder and seeing people gaining on him. Hard to impress the League with tape of oneself riding pine.

Whatever his decision, I wish him the best. But, from a Cal standpoint, you gotta wanna and, if he doesn't, so be it.

oski003;842251029 said:

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Ragin was not the highest rated recruit, defensive or otherwise, in his class, so I assumed he meant Kline. Scout rates him somewhat highly (though still 3 star) and Rivals puts him as a low/mid 3 star.

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Funny. Sonny supporters were over the moon to get Ragin. Fell all over themselves to congratulate Sonny for getting him. Love Ragin right until he left. Now suddenly the opinion has changed.

Has it occurred to any of you that maybe you should change your opinion about Sonny instead of everybody else?

Basically some of you seem to think the coach is automatically right no matter how many others have an issue with the coach.

OaktownBear;842251094 said:

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Has it occurred to any of you that maybe you should change your opinion about Sonny.

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Hasn't that happened? I think most posters on BI were thrilled about the Dykes hire and now can't stand the guy , even beyond whether he can coach or not.

I guess for you, you didn't like the hire, still don't and never will, even if Sonny turns it around.

Man, I'm not saying Ragin is bad or anything of that sort. I just don't appreciate factual statements that are false.

If he said that he thought Ragin was going to be one of our best defensive players and now he has transferred and he is worried that our bad defense won't improve, that would have been fine.

Fact: Our defense was bad last year.

Fact: Kam Jackson is a solid cornerback.

Fact: Ragin was one of our better defensive recruits in his class.

Conclusion: I am worried about how our defense will be next year.

Conclusion: I don't think things will get any better under Sonny next year. We'd be better off if we cut our losses and started looking for another coach.

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That reads better than

Fact: Kam Jackson is the heart of our defense and the best player ever.

Fact: Ragin was the best recruit in his class and we can't afford to lose him on defense.

Conclusion: Sonny is the worst thing to ever happen to Cal football.

oski003;842251106 said:

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Fact: Kam Jackson is the heart of our defense and the best player ever.

Fact: Ragin was the best recruit in his class and we can't afford to lose him on defense.

Conclusion: Sonny is the worst thing to ever happen to Cal football.

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Fact: People tend to engage in some exaggeration and hyperbole in making arguments.

Fact: When the spirit of the argument goes against them, People on this board sometimes engage in being sticklers on facts.

Opinion: They tend to do this because the facts are something they can challenge while the spirit is something they lose on.

Opinion: If people want to be sticklers on facts, they better watch their own posting or they will demonstrate how silly being a stickler on facts can be as opposed to sticking with the real basis for the argument. For instance:

Fact: No one thinks Kam Jackson is the best player ever.

Opinion: The conclusion above is a lot closer to reality than your proposed conclusion. That was already determined over the last few months.

jyamada;842251103 said:

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Hasn't that happened? I think most posters on BI were thrilled about the Dykes hire and now can't stand the guy , even beyond whether he can coach or not.

I guess for you, you didn't like the hire, still don't and never will, even if Sonny turns it around.

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I wasn't sure what to make of it so I said nothing. Cautiously optimistic, I suppose. I liked that he had a productive offense but was worried about the lack of defense. I liked that we were trying a new offensive system that had an identity and was seemingly simpler than Tedford's system.

I wasn't excited about the Buh hire. For the amount of money we paid (highest paid DC in conference minus the private schools) I felt we hired someone unproven. Still, I was open to seeing what he could do but not confident in someone who had just been a co-dc for a short period and who's last position was LB coach.

I care more about the program than the current coach. The current coach doesn't strike me as a lifer...I don't think he'll be here in 3-5 years. He'll be gone and we'll be here, still fans. The players who've gone through the program will have to live with the opportunities (or lack thereof) that they had at Cal. We will all still be a part of Cal. The current coach will be at his next gig, having received his handsome paycheck. Forgive me if I have little pity for someone who gets paid so well and has little in the way of job performance.

jyamada;842251103 said:

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Hasn't that happened? I think most posters on BI were thrilled about the Dykes hire and now can't stand the guy , even beyond whether he can coach or not.

I guess for you, you didn't like the hire, still don't and never will, even if Sonny turns it around.

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I think the ones that were thrilled spoke up while the ones who weren't either remained quiet or were shouted down. Maybe rightfully so since I think you do have to give a coach time to actually do something.

I agree with a lot of what OaktownBear has been posting lately. I don't go out of my way to +1 him or respond to everything, but there's a certain segment of the fan base that will defend every single thing a coach does. That's fine, but those that are critical of the coaching staff shouldn't be subjected to personal attacks. I'm not crying about it over here, just observing with some amusement.

I do think the response of some of our posters here is embarrassing though. I use to think one of the most low class thing a fan base did was trash a kid who didn't choose their school. Now, I see fans trashing a player who did choose their school and played. That's crazy.

I hope Kameron Jackson does well and that he enjoyed his time here at Cal, as well as finishing his degree.

Wow, a mediocre DBack on THE worst DBack squad in D1A, and perhaps in the modern history of D1A football, thinks he can go PRO???

Our DBacks aren't qualified to play NFL football on a PlayStation.

Oh, but good luck, you delusional idiot. Thanks for the lousy football you gave us when you felt like playing. Maybe someone at the NFL level will have the balls to tell you the truth about your "abilities."

Steve Williams, this guy - thanks NFL for taking our guys who wouldn't get off the bench for a real NCAA football defense. Weird...

BeachyBear;842251126 said:

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Wow, a mediocre DBack on THE worst DBack squad in D1A, and perhaps in the modern history of D1A football, thinks he can go PRO???

Our DBacks aren't qualified to play NFL football on a PlayStation.

Oh, but good luck, you delusional idiot. Thanks for the lousy football you gave us when you felt like playing. Maybe someone at the NFL level will have the balls to tell you the truth about your "abilities."

Steve Williams, this guy - thanks NFL for taking our guys who wouldn't get off the bench for a real NCAA football defense. Weird...

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omg why the venom? "Idiot?" Horrible. I don't get the venom on Kam; heck, I don't really get the venom on guys like Shaq either. These are kids, who have a future, and who have life situations none of us know anything about. Life is not limited to the Cal football program, even though we on BI think it is. Go to the Stephen Anderson thread and get some perspective.

Ace4eVer;842251114 said:

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I think the ones that were thrilled spoke up while the ones who weren't either remained quiet or were shouted down. Maybe rightfully so since I think you do have to give a coach time to actually do something.

I agree with a lot of what OaktownBear has been posting lately. I don't go out of my way to +1 him or respond to everything, but there's a certain segment of the fan base that will defend every single thing a coach does. That's fine, but those that are critical of the coaching staff shouldn't be subjected to personal attacks. I'm not crying about it over here, just observing with some amusement.

I do think the response of some of our posters here is embarrassing though. I use to think one of the most low class thing a fan base did was trash a kid who didn't choose their school. Now, I see fans trashing a player who did choose their school and played. That's crazy.

I hope Kameron Jackson does well and that he enjoyed his time here at Cal, as well as finishing his degree.

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There were only a few posters thrilled with the Dykes hire from the get go. Many more (myself included) warmed up to the hire based on his offense, statements, etc. and a desire to be optimistic (even among this group most were disappointed with the Buh hiring/contract). Many hated the Dykes hiring from the get go (of that group a significant portion were Tedford loyalists). They have taken a "told you so" attitude, to trashing the staff as "clowns" and looking for/assuming the worst. Unfortunately, they have found a lot to point out.

Some, defending the staff against over the top criticism, desire to support our image and recruiting or out of loyalty to whomever is the coach, attack the players (the same thing happened under Tedford with people attacking Desean, Riley, or Maynard or Allen). I think the coaches are fair game for personal criticism, but the players are not. I'd prefer that our discussions of the coaches were informative and proactive, rather than being dismissive and resorting to name calling, but they are highly paid professionals and discussions of their jobs on public message boards comes with the territory.

MiZery;842250773 said:

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Because players not ready for the NFL never ever declare right

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Some guys go for reasons that have nothing to do with the money, either.

Like to be on an NFL team before their grandmother dies...


Not everything is "degree or football"

OaktownBear;842251109 said:

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Fact: People tend to engage in some exaggeration and hyperbole in making arguments.

Fact: When the spirit of the argument goes against them, People on this board sometimes engage in being sticklers on facts.

Opinion: They tend to do this because the facts are something they can challenge while the spirit is something they lose on.

Opinion: If people want to be sticklers on facts, they better watch their own posting or they will demonstrate how silly being a stickler on facts can be as opposed to sticking with the real basis for the argument. For instance:

Fact: No one thinks Kam Jackson is the best player ever.

Opinion: The conclusion above is a lot closer to reality than your proposed conclusion. That was already determined over the last few months.

---

Maybe it is because I disagree with much of the negative posting.

If I worked for an organization or supported such and believed it was rotten at the top, I wouldn't publicly crusade against it. I wouldn't spin things to suit my agenda. Sonny, Barbour, Buh. Yenser, Buh. etc...can be all be replaced without publically disparaging them at every opportunity.

I believe that these posts do little to accomplish the goal of replacing Sonny. Are there other ways to communicate with alumni or people in power outside a board that is open to the public that recruits read?

Multiple people have given Mixon about 50 reasons to not go to Cal. Is it a surprise that he probably won't? If the situation is so dire, why do we have to exaggerate? Do you really think that, in the internet age, he has never read about himself, how awful Yenser is, and that the only reason Dykes had a run game at l tech is because his conference was so bad? Then, when we don't get Mixon, the blame is 100% on Sonny and not getting someone like Mixon hurts us for a few years.

Unless you think the only way to fix Cal is to accelerate us toward a true rock bottom (multiple years of 0-2, wins) I don't believe you are accomplishing your goals. I just don't believe in shooting someone in the foot to try to accelerate their downfall.

If you believe that a program looking to get to the rose bowl should fire a coach after a 1-11 season, so be it. That's probably true. However, to be shocked and awed at every little thing that has happened and make it seem like the end of the world is pretty ridiculous.


PS: Using my example of an exaggeration to show that I exaggerate is a little weird. Also. I'm not sure what you think my proposed conclusion is.

KoreAmBear;842251129 said:

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omg why the venom? "Idiot?" Horrible. I don't get the venom on Kam; heck, I don't really get the venom on guys like Shaq either. These are kids, who have a future, and who have life situations none of us know anything about. Life is not limited to the Cal football program, even though we on BI think it is. Go to the Stephen Anderson thread and get some perspective.

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Yeah, I don't get it. Another poster calling out a Golden Bear player who played hard for us.

Didn't read very far into this thread, so this might be redundant...

The things being said about Kam now are not much different than what we said about Steve Williams, who got drafted.

He has skills and speed. He stands a more than reasonable chance at being a day 2 pick.

This is a big loss for us.

calumnus;842251132 said:

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There were only a few posters thrilled with the Dykes hire from the get go. Many more (myself included) warmed up to the hire based on his offense, statements, etc. and a desire to be optimistic (even among this group most were disappointed with the Buh hiring/contract). Many hated the Dykes hiring from the get go (of that group a significant portion were Tedford loyalists). They have taken a "told you so" attitude, to trashing the staff as "clowns" and looking for/assuming the worst. Unfortunately, they have found a lot to point out.

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I don't know how much of it was incremental and immediate but as one of the guys that was very luke-warm about this hire my very definite impression is/was there was very widespread support for the hire early on.

oski003;842251140 said:

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Maybe it is because I disagree with much of the negative posting.

If I worked for an organization or supported such and believed it was rotten at the top, I wouldn't publicly crusade against it. I wouldn't spin things to suit my agenda. Sonny, Barbour, Buh. Yenser, Buh. etc...can be all be replaced without publically disparaging them at every opportunity.

I believe that these posts do little to accomplish the goal of replacing Sonny. Are there other ways to communicate with alumni or people in power outside a board that is open to the public that recruits read?

Multiple people have given Mixon about 50 reasons to not go to Cal. Is it a surprise that he probably won't? If the situation is so dire, why do we have to exaggerate? Do you really think that, in the internet age, he has never read about himself, how awful Yenser is, and that the only reason Dykes had a run game at l tech is because his conference was so bad? Then, when we don't get Mixon, the blame is 100% on Sonny and not getting someone like Mixon hurts us for a few years.

Unless you think the only way to fix Cal is to accelerate us toward a true rock bottom (multiple years of 0-2, wins) I don't believe you are accomplishing your goals. I just don't believe in shooting someone in the foot to try to accelerate their downfall.

If you believe that a program looking to get to the rose bowl should fire a coach after a 1-11 season, so be it. That's probably true. However, to be shocked and awed at every little thing that has happened and make it seem like the end of the world is pretty ridiculous.


PS: Using my example of an exaggeration to show that I exaggerate is a little weird. Also. I'm not sure what you think my proposed conclusion is.

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With all due respect, I think you really over estimate the influence forums like BI have. If football boards had that much influence, how would schools like SC, Texas, Alabama and Oregon have such highly-rated recruiting classes? Go to the boards and see much they trash recruits, players and coaches. Yet they still pull in the highest rated classes in the country. This place is like NPR compared to those boards.

Sure, recruits/parents may read the board but the info they get from other recruits and parents probably far outweighs anything they read here. You think Mixon decided not to come to Cal because of something he read on BI? You give us way too much credit.

Secondly, you assume there's an agenda of driving the program to the bottom. Again, you over estimate the power of this board. The future of this program won't be made here. The real power is with the chancellor and the major donors. The biggest determinant of the future is on the scoreboard.

What you see here is little more than ranting. I can understand why that's bothersome but accusing people of having an agenda is silly because it assumes that an agenda could be driven here in the first place.

tequila4kapp;842251162 said:

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I don't know how much of it was incremental and immediate but as one of the guys that was very luke-warm about this hire my very definite impression is/was there was very widespread support for the hire early on.

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Maybe the difference is "thrilled" versus "support"?

Not knowing much about him, I was luke-warm until I learned more, but my intent was to find reasons to like and be optimistic about the hire, which was already a done deal.

The only candidate that people were widely in support of was Peterson and the only candidate people seemed widely against was Hue Jackson.

calumnus;842251182 said:

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Maybe the difference is "thrilled" versus "support"?

Not knowing much about him, I was luke-warm until I learned more, but my intent was to find reasons to like and be optimistic about the hire, which was already a done deal.

The only candidate that people were widely in support of was Peterson and the only candidate people seemed widely against was Hue Jackson.

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I wasn't looking for a reason to like or dislike him. I wasn't particularly excited so I didn't post much about him. I spent much more time defending Tedford's legacy while recognizing it was time for him to move on. I was very interested in who Dykes was going to hire for the DC and my post history would show a bit more there, along with some confusion regarding his "most important hire".

http://espn.go.com/blog/pac12/post/_/id/50839/dykes-talks-defense-among-other-topics

It might be the difference between thrilled and support, but I think the overly positive and overly negative people wound up cancelling each other out. After a while, the banning attrition wears on the negative people and you're left with only the positive ones, so I think it appears skewed. Also, people tend to respond/quote the most negative ones so their posts/responses are seen over and over again. It looks like its just a few folks saying the same thing but its really just a few that get picked out of the crowd.

I started to get worried when he started saying things that just sounded too good to be true. A silly thing to worry about, but he had it mastered. The coach speak, the fan speak, he knew his audience well.

BerlinerBaer;842251158 said:

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Didn't read very far into this thread, so this might be redundant...

The things being said about Kam now are not much different than what we said about Steve Williams, who got drafted.

He has skills and speed. He stands a more than reasonable chance at being a day 2 pick.

This is a big loss for us.

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Yes, big loss. Was hoping to build off his experience this season, and along with Avery, shore up the defensive back situation. Unfortunately for us, we didn't get to see Kam Jackson to his full college potential. Did he even have 1 pick for us? Steve put up some numbers, and had a critical INT v. tOSU which should have helped us to have the game winning drive at Columbus. That all said, I wish Kam the best and hope he will be repping us during intros on Sunday Night Football in the near future.

KoreAmBear;842251191 said:

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Yes, big loss. Was hoping to build off his experience this season, and along with Avery, shore up the defensive back situation. Unfortunately for us, we didn't get to see Kam Jackson to his full college potential. Did he even have 1 pick for us? Steve put up some numbers, and had a critical INT v. tOSU which should have helped us to have the game winning drive at Columbus. That all said, I wish Kam the best and hope he will be repping us during intros on Sunday Night Football in the near future.

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I think he had a four interception game last year

KoreAmBear;842251191 said:

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Yes, big loss. Was hoping to build off his experience this season, and along with Avery, shore up the defensive back situation. Unfortunately for us, we didn't get to see Kam Jackson to his full college potential. Did he even have 1 pick for us? Steve put up some numbers, and had a critical INT v. tOSU which should have helped us to have the game winning drive at Columbus. That all said, I wish Kam the best and hope he will be repping us during intros on Sunday Night Football in the near future.

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He had a 3 pick game against UCLA last year. We as a fan base extrapolated a lot based on that one performance, kinda like Bigelow's performance against Ohio St.

Ace4eVer;842251195 said:

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He had a 3 pick game against UCLA last year. We as a fan base extrapolated a lot based on that one performance, kinda like Bigelow's performance against Ohio St.

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Oh yah, had forgotten about last year. Basically he was not going to have many chances for picks this year because teams kept throwing to the other side (Lapite, Dozier, etc.). He would have been solid with a more experienced/healthy supporting cast.

Teams threw to Kam's side quite a bit. I remember Mannion passing to Cooks guarded by Kam three times in a row. Kam seemed to always be in decent position but couldn't make plays on the ball and sometimes got called for PI.

I don't fault Kam though. Other qb's seemed to throw dimes because our pass rush wasn't stellar. I wonder if Kam would've had a few picks if qbs were rushing their throws.

Kam also had a leg injury during the season. and played through it. I think it was from that diving Oregon WR block to the knee.

He's a solid corner, and I wish he'd stay...

When was the last time we had a draftable player who is a non-punter actually stay in school for their senior year?

oski003;842251222 said:

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Teams threw to Kam's side quite a bit. I remember Mannion passing to Cooks guarded by Kam three times in a row. Kam seemed to always be in decent position but couldn't make plays on the ball and sometimes got called for PI.

I don't fault Kam though. Other qb's seemed to throw dimes because our pass rush wasn't stellar. I wonder if Kam would've had a few picks if qbs were rushing their throws.

Kam also had a leg injury during the season. and played through it. I think it was from that diving Oregon WR block to the knee.

He's a solid corner, and I wish he'd stay...

When was the last time we had a draftable player who is a non-punter actually stay in school for their senior year?

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Andre Carter.

KoreAmBear;842251235 said:

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Andre Carter.

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Alex Mack?

jyamada;842251247 said:

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Alex Mack?

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Deandre Coleman

He might not get drafted.

pappysghost;842251258 said:

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He might not get drafted.

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He was a mid round pick last year and he's a mid round pick this year. Unless he gets into some serious legal trouble or runs a 12 second 40 and does 2 reps of bench press, he's a surefire draftpick.