Quote:

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For those who have read the ruling could the NCAA/ nu help its cause by making the scholarships four year guarantees with no ability to revoke for non academic reasons? I will post longer tomorrow but also note that this follows past NLRB and court rulings on employee status of teaching assistants and research assissants.

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I think it could, if the scholarships were only tied to academics, as say an "academic" scholarship like the ivies, since he clearly makes the distinction that walk-on players are not employees. It becomes more of a question of whether the academic scholarship can be considered compensation for football activities. However, in this case, you can have kids that get injured or just decide not to play that keep their scholarship, so you can at least point to that as saying the scholarship is not tied to their football performance (i.e., they don't lose their compensation merely by not showing up to play).

I have always wondered why schools didn't set up some kind of undergraduate major specifically for athletes, and anyone else interested in pursuing a degree in such a field. Some major geared towards athletic training/kinesiology that simply encompassed training in the field that these athletes are interested in. It's not like there aren't tons of jobs out there for athletes that can't go pro after college in setting up gyms/pilates studios/pitching or throwing academies, not to mention coaching oportunities, etc. I gotta think there are probably more jobs in this field that such fields as journalism these days. The schools could then set up the major to not interfere with college athletics (i.e., no classes after 3 pm) and the kids aren't stuggling in core classes they really have no interest in pursuing. Sure, maybe this type of degree doesn't have the wait of graduating with another degree from the same school, but that doesn't matter. Furthermore, any athlete that wishes to pursue a different major is free to do so. At least this gets the kids out of the issue of being forced to pursue a degree in something they aren't interested in just to play a sport.

SonOfCalVa;842297384 said:

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One thing about unions: poor management creates them.
Kind of like "Noah's Ark: If it wasn't for the storm outside, people wouldn't stand for the stink inside.
Used that analogy to a union boss. Kind of pissed him off :p

Minor league football, loosely connected to universities which rent their stadiums to the teams ... fascinating concept.
Imagine the Washington State Cougars telling the university and the city of Pullman that if they don't build a new stadium, etc. that they'll move the team to Vancouver, WA and tap the Portland market.
Vancouver's Cougars has a nice ring to it ... works for pro sports.
The possibilities are delicious.

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haha VA, i dont think that theres much of a market for that. cant imagine watching the Berkeley Bears play against the Palo Alto Cardinal in the annual minor league matchup.

Sebastabear;842296925 said:

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Apparently Northwestern's President emeritus said last week that a decision like this (allowing the unionization) could result in Northwestern leaving Division I football. If I could ask, would it be too much to have that happen before August 30th? I'm totally fine starting the year with a forfeit victory.

Here's a link to the CNN Story with the quote.


http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/26/us/northwestern-football-union/

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If Northwestern were to forfeit, would that count as Cal's first victory over a Div. 1 school in 1.5 years.

briloker;842297430 said:

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I don't think Congress will delve into the "pay-for-play" thing, I think Congress will simply enact an exemption that says athletic scholarships are not compensation and student-athletes are not employees of a university.

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I hope not. It would be a clusterf*&k to untangle if it ever gets that far.

College football is not threatened by the NLRB ruling. The folks who are threatened by this ruling are the folks getting rich off of college football, including ESPN, 30-something bowl games (!), and the NFL.

briloker;842297438 said:

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I have always wondered why schools didn't set up some kind of undergraduate major specifically for athletes, and anyone else interested in pursuing a degree in such a field. Some major geared towards athletic training/kinesiology that simply encompassed training in the field that these athletes are interested in. It's not like there aren't tons of jobs out there for athletes that can't go pro after college in setting up gyms/pilates studios/pitching or throwing academies, not to mention coaching oportunities, etc. I gotta think there are probably more jobs in this field that such fields as journalism these days. The schools could then set up the major to not interfere with college athletics (i.e., no classes after 3 pm) and the kids aren't stuggling in core classes they really have no interest in pursuing. Sure, maybe this type of degree doesn't have the wait of graduating with another degree from the same school, but that doesn't matter. Furthermore, any athlete that wishes to pursue a different major is free to do so. At least this gets the kids out of the issue of being forced to pursue a degree in something they aren't interested in just to play a sport.

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Several schools have Sports Marketing as a major or something like that also.

sp4149;842297153 said:

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6. This will really help private schools since they aren't reporting financials now. While Cal AD is paying UC for the tuition costs schools like SC or Stanford do not have to report if they do the same.
What if their athletes have been getting "free" tuition, no cost to the AD. Private schools could then pay their athlete employees the same wage support as other Div 1 schools plus the market value of the non-disclosed tuition. And they won't have to disclose their finances. The player choosing between Cal/Stanford, Michigan/Notre Dame, LSU/Tulane might have that decison tilted in favor of receiving an additional $50K a year from the private school.

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IMO the situation is worse. NLRB ruled that players at PRIVATE institutions can unionize.

If players at PUBLIC institutions cannot unionize, won't that give the private colleges a leg up on the public colleges IN RECRUITING.

If an offer is made to the same player by a public college and by a private college, and if the private college offers better benefits, why would the player choose the public college?

68great;842297450 said:

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IMO the situation is worse. NLRB ruled that players at PRIVATE institutions can unionize.

If players at PUBLIC institutions cannot unionize, won't that give the private colleges a leg up on the public colleges IN RECRUITING.

If an offer is made to the same player by a public college and by a private college, and if the private college offers better benefits, why would the player choose the public college?

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you could see college football split into two different divisions: paid and unpaid

Anyone who thinks Congress will act to do anything at any time regarding this NLRB/CFB problem has not been paying attention. Congress will sit back, let the NLRB and the courts arrive at a solution. Then, the Democrats will blame the Republicans, and the Republicans will blame the Democrats for allowing the whole mess to occur.

GivemTheAxe;842297445 said:

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If Northwestern were to forfeit, would that count as Cal's first victory over a Div. 1 school in 1.5 years.

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StillNoStanfurdium;842297449 said:

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Several schools have Sports Marketing as a major or something like that also.

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New, worthy majors could be developed.

Energy management (electricians)
Water management (plumbers)
Technical courses to really gain proficiency.
BUT
they'd have to pass professional tests to be licensed. :p

However, they pay decent wages. Not as much as the NFL but ....
And, the jobs can't be out-sourced. Nobody in China or India can install the wiring and plumbing for a heat pump or tankless water heater.

I'd be OK with some sort of hybrid system with a reasonable high minor option for the pro prospects and the Ivy model on campus. Cost factors might preclude an extensive minor league setup. Then again, if ESPN can create programming like the X-Games, maybe they can operate a minor league.

SonOfCalVa;842297533 said:

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New, worthy majors could be developed.

Energy management (electricians)
Water management (plumbers)
Technical courses to really gain proficiency.
BUT
they'd have to pass professional tests to be licensed. :p

However, they pay decent wages. Not as much as the NFL but ....
And, the jobs can't be out-sourced. Nobody in China or India can install the wiring and plumbing for a heat pump or tankless water heater.

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Honestly, they should allow college athletes to take some kind of vocational training instead if they wanted to. I know the current college system isn't really set up for that but hell if you're going to just fake the education part of things can we maybe just make exceptions and push vocational type skills instead?

StillNoStanfurdium;842297556 said:

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Honestly, they should allow college athletes to take some kind of vocational training instead if they wanted to. I know the current college system isn't really set up for that but hell if you're going to just fake the education part of things can we maybe just make exceptions and push vocational type skills instead?

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As I mentioned, the knowledge and skills needed to pass professional tests for licensing aren't trivial. It can be rigorous and many athletes probably wouldn't or couldn't do well. Lots of practical math and science are needed.

But there are good paying jobs for those who do the work, especially for the multitude who dream of the NFL but are found wanting for many reasons.

25To20;842297476 said:

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Anyone who thinks Congress will act to do anything at any time regarding this NLRB/CFB problem has not been paying attention. Congress will sit back, let the NLRB and the courts arrive at a solution. Then, the Democrats will blame the Republicans, and the Republicans will blame the Democrats for allowing the whole mess to occur.

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I have knowledge of an antitrust case that is being filed against the NCAA.

I think Congress will definitely give the NCAA an antitrust exemption. It is the one area they will unite and exclude the liberal and libertarian wings of each party. Everybody loves college football, but especially the red states.

Darby;842297368 said:

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The model already exists outside of the Ivy League. It's called Division III. And nobody pays to watch it. The end result of this pay for play fantasy is schools won't go DIII in football. They will simply drop the sport when the TV money dries up and it becomes economically unviable. Like UOP, SF State and others did in the past. Fail all around but those aiming to kill modern CFB care nothing about the collateral damage that will result.

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Does Mark Cuban serve on the Chicago NLRB? Sounds like an excellent move to kill the NFL.

pingpong2;842297513 said:

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Yeah winning!!!!!! Will take what we can get.

briloker;842297438 said:

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I have always wondered why schools didn't set up some kind of undergraduate major specifically for athletes, and anyone else interested in pursuing a degree in such a field. Some major geared towards athletic training/kinesiology that simply encompassed training in the field that these athletes are interested in. It's not like there aren't tons of jobs out there for athletes that can't go pro after college in setting up gyms/pilates studios/pitching or throwing academies, not to mention coaching oportunities, etc. I gotta think there are probably more jobs in this field that such fields as journalism these days. The schools could then set up the major to not interfere with college athletics (i.e., no classes after 3 pm) and the kids aren't stuggling in core classes they really have no interest in pursuing. Sure, maybe this type of degree doesn't have the wait of graduating with another degree from the same school, but that doesn't matter. Furthermore, any athlete that wishes to pursue a different major is free to do so. At least this gets the kids out of the issue of being forced to pursue a degree in something they aren't interested in just to play a sport.

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You have significantly overestimated the willlingness and the ability of the "student athlete" nationally to interest themselves in their future let alone work toward it. Look in another thread how Chris Kluwe made extra money by writing term papers for his teammates at $10 a page - he had all the work he could handle and more.

Today's young person, nationally, will latch onto any excuse, will go to any extremes to avoid thinking about next month. At the same time, they will insist that entry level jobs are beneath them and that they deserve to start in a managerial position.

There are legions of fb and bb players, especially, who find it easier to pretend that they are preparing for The League than to give themselves anywhere near an honest assessment after looking in the mirror. And, they have learned that their parents and friends are easily convinced to disbelieve their eyes when suggestions of "pay sharing" are made. So, everyone's in denial together.

Watch Judge Judy and you'll get the idea.

Rushinbear;842297724 said:

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You have significantly overestimated the willlingness and the ability of the "student athlete" nationally to interest themselves in their future let alone work toward it. Look in another thread how Chris Kluwe made extra money by writing term papers for his teammates at $10 a page - he had all the work he could handle and more.

Today's young person, nationally, will latch onto any excuse, will go to any extremes to avoid thinking about next month. At the same time, they will insist that entry level jobs are beneath them and that they deserve to start in a managerial position.

There are legions of fb and bb players, especially, who find it easier to pretend that they are preparing for The League than to give themselves anywhere near an honest assessment after looking in the mirror. And, they have learned that their parents and friends are easily convinced to disbelieve their eyes when suggestions of "pay sharing" are made. So, everyone's in denial together.

Watch Judge Judy and you'll get the idea.

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In the whole, you paint a picture which is very depressing, and you could publish volumes of sources to illustrate your points, generally and specifically.

However (but, regardless, notwithstanding, etc.) there are exceptions at Cal.
Ted Agu is obvious, a true student-athlete.
Brezinski is yet another: top rated player who achieved great success in the classroom but surprisingly not on the field.
Alex Mack ....
Just a few examples but there are many.

Hopefully, with the new emphasis on recruiting and academics, most, if not all, of our athletes will be goal-minded, on the football field and beyond the field.

As to: "At the same time, they will insist that entry level jobs are beneath them and that they deserve to start in a managerial position.", there are too many examples of these types who graduate from the Farm.
The ones I've encountered want to "consult" (bullsh't) but don't want to be near any projects in which they have to produce actual work product which would be tested or on which they might be assessed.
Helluva generalization, I admit, but too true in my experience.

SonOfCalVa;842297740 said:

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In the whole, you paint a picture which is very depressing, and you could publish volumes of sources to illustrate your points, generally and specifically.

However (but, regardless, notwithstanding, etc.) there are exceptions at Cal.
Ted Agu is obvious, a true student-athlete.
Brezinski is yet another: top rated player who achieved great success in the classroom but surprisingly not on the field.
Alex Mack ....
Just a few examples but there are many.

Hopefully, with the new emphasis on recruiting and academics, most, if not all, of our athletes will be goal-minded, on the football field and beyond the field.

As to: "At the same time, they will insist that entry level jobs are beneath them and that they deserve to start in a managerial position.", there are too many examples of these types who graduate from the Farm.
The ones I've encountered want to "consult" (bullsh't) but don't want to be near any projects in which they have to produce actual work product which would be tested or on which they might be assessed.
Helluva generalization, I admit, but too true in my experience.

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Oh, I agree about Cal wholeheartedly. Note that I took pains to refer to the national character of student athletes. Cal, even at its most lenient, requires dedication and effort that is lightyears ahead of the average. And, this is what's so intriguing about Cal athletics - to compete on par or above with our Conference and in the wider community while expecting much more in the classroom.

As to the Junior Farm, the world of work is clear. If an employer wants a poseur, an underachiever (they gotta be smart to get in there, ain't they?), or a layabout, that's the place to draw from. Golden Bears, on the other hand, prove every day that they will work and get things done. And, the world knows it.

norcalbuff;842297865 said:

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Whole lot of nonsense in this post. If private colleges were allowed to offer benefits above the current NCAA regulations, the NCAA regulations would have to change and everyone could offer those benefits, public or private. The public schools just wouldn't be forced to.

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Public schools are covered under state labor boards. That's the distinction for the ruling not any other merit.

Son-of-California;842296940 said:

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It is a "full-ride" not a "free-ride". Student-athletes put in over 50 hours a week for their sport. Not to mention the untold hours they put in training in the summers and off season. Besides, some random student isn't going to potentially suffer from career ending injury or lifelong illness due to their pursuit of their degree. I'm not saying kids should be paid or unionized, but playing football isn't always the jackpot that many people seem to think it is.

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So how would you treat the swim team, track team, hockey team, baseball team, etc.? Pay them all? Any group of employees can form a union or join one. It doesn't mean management will ever settle with them.

Oski87;842297280 said:

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This will kill athletics.

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If by "athletics", you mean the current corrupt cartel known as the NCAA, then yes, it will kill it. The NCAA may claim that they're too poor to provide better compensation for the players, but just watch how they spend millions on attorneys to fight this thing to the death.

The NCAA gets a billion bucks from the NCAA tournament alone. The schools and conferences make billions from TV revenue, ticket sales, and wealthy alumni donations. They pay themselves first: the head of the NCAA gets $2,000,000 per year; the head football and basketball coaches get millions (100 times what they made 30 years ago!). The conference administrators and ADs get paid a pretty penny as well. Then they pay hundreds of millions for new facilities, much of which is spent on luxury boxes for the wealthy alums. Meanwhile, ticket prices keep going up and typically require additional donations. Then, after all of this freewheelin' spending for themselves, they tell the athletes that there's no more money left. If the players got paid a little more - the Northwestern players are just asking for a little additional expense money and health insurance for long term injuries - then the NCAA says that the whole system will collapse, and athletes in non-revenue sports will be out on the streets. What a pile of crap.

It's free market capitalism for the administrators and coaches. It's serfdom for the athletes. On the one hand, we say that without an athletic scholarship, the players could not attend college. Either play football, or suffer the lifetime consequences of having no degree. Then we say it's a "choice" to play football, and when you face a lifetime of medical bills when your knees get ripped to shreds, it's tough luck, it was your "choice".

It is no surprise that football and basketball players - the players whose labor brings in the revenue - tend to be impoverished people of color. These people are poor and are being exploited, pure and simple. The NFL and NCAA have a corrupt bargain to enforce their mutual monopoly. If you are out of high school less than three years, too bad - the NFL will not hire you. The NFL does not schedule games on Saturdays until the NCAA regular season is over. Anybody ever wonder why? The NCAA does not schedule games on Sundays and does not have postseason games on Saturdays in January, (the new playoff championship game will, of course, be on a Monday night) while providing a free farm system for the NFL, which of course, we pay for.

In any other industry, this would be an illegal monopoly that would have lost an antitrust suit long ago. You know why they break up monopolies? They can get away with paying employees next to nothing. They charge the highest possible price for their product without market competition.

Let's stop pretending that the NCAA and the current system cares about the athletes and is trying to save athletics. It's all about money in their own pockets and nothing about the athletes. They're making and remaking conferences, destroying traditional rivalries, increasing the price of tickets 2000% over 30 years ago, moving the venue for our home games to a pro stadium 50 miles away, becoming whores to the corporations (including embarrassing stadium re-naming), adding games to the schedule, and, oh yeah, cutting non-revenue sports.

SoCalBear323;842296895 said:

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,6454823.story

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One last thing about NLRB Ruling.

I know how the law is interpreted, but answer me this: If being forgiven a payment, as tuition is forgiven, amounts to a salary, then every home owner with subsidy-reduced mortgage payments works for Bank of America.

This is not a Hobson's Choice for these players. They can play in Div III. They can opt for semi-pro ball in just about every metro area in the country. Or, they can go out of the country. And, they can negotiate the terms and conditions of their offers before choosing their school...and they can transfer if they feel like they chose the wrong one.

What will happen to the game if coaches are required to mediate with a business agent every time a player thinks he should be starting? WWE, that's what.

rrhea;842298104 said:

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If by "athletics", you mean the current corrupt cartel known as the NCAA, then yes, it will kill it. The NCAA may claim that they're too poor to provide better compensation for the players, but just watch how they spend millions on attorneys to fight this thing to the death.

The NCAA gets a billion bucks from the NCAA tournament alone. The schools and conferences make billions from TV revenue, ticket sales, and wealthy alumni donations. They pay themselves first: the head of the NCAA gets $2,000,000 per year; the head football and basketball coaches get millions (100 times what they made 30 years ago!). The conference administrators and ADs get paid a pretty penny as well. Then they pay hundreds of millions for new facilities, much of which is spent on luxury boxes for the wealthy alums. Meanwhile, ticket prices keep going up and typically require additional donations. Then, after all of this freewheelin' spending for themselves, they tell the athletes that there's no more money left. If the players got paid a little more - the Northwestern players are just asking for a little additional expense money and health insurance for long term injuries - then the NCAA says that the whole system will collapse, and athletes in non-revenue sports will be out on the streets. What a pile of crap.

It's free market capitalism for the administrators and coaches. It's serfdom for the athletes. On the one hand, we say that without an athletic scholarship, the players could not attend college. Either play football, or suffer the lifetime consequences of having no degree. Then we say it's a "choice" to play football, and when you face a lifetime of medical bills when your knees get ripped to shreds, it's tough luck, it was your "choice".

It is no surprise that football and basketball players - the players whose labor brings in the revenue - tend to be impoverished people of color. These people are poor and are being exploited, pure and simple. The NFL and NCAA have a corrupt bargain to enforce their mutual monopoly. If you are out of high school less than three years, too bad - the NFL will not hire you. The NFL does not schedule games on Saturdays until the NCAA regular season is over. Anybody ever wonder why? The NCAA does not schedule games on Sundays and does not have postseason games on Saturdays in January, (the new playoff championship game will, of course, be on a Monday night) while providing a free farm system for the NFL, which of course, we pay for.

In any other industry, this would be an illegal monopoly that would have lost an antitrust suit long ago. You know why they break up monopolies? They can get away with paying employees next to nothing. They charge the highest possible price for their product without market competition.

Let's stop pretending that the NCAA and the current system cares about the athletes and is trying to save athletics. It's all about money in their own pockets and nothing about the athletes. They're making and remaking conferences, destroying traditional rivalries, increasing the price of tickets 2000% over 30 years ago, moving the venue for our home games to a pro stadium 50 miles away, becoming whores to the corporations (including embarrassing stadium re-naming), adding games to the schedule, and, oh yeah, cutting non-revenue sports.

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[SIZE="5"][COLOR="Blue"]SPOT ON !!![/COLOR][/SIZE]

this (from your many great points): "adding games to the schedule" which increases the time commitment and the stress on the players' bodies as well as the stress of competing in the classroom (at Cal and other truly academic universities).

That's why I think the whole "playoff" schtick is crap. Just adding more games ... for what? ... so a football factory can claim "We're Number One"?
Alabama (SEC), tOSU, u$c ... who really cares which factory has won a couple of days after the games except the guys having vicarious thrills and drunken debates in a sports bar.
What's the benefit to the players for ever more games, disregarding the few who can display their talents for pro scouts (and increase their chance for injury)?
The benefit for the NCAA and the others slavishly feeding themselves off revenue is obvious. The detriment and cost to the players is also obvious.
How many players (%) end up with no degree or even a useless "degree" (uNC and others).
Even for the ones who make it (and for how long?), how many have taken practical courses in accounting and finance. Few, at best, and they're unable to handle their new wealth and act stupid with the money or get ripped off and end up broke.

Rushinbear;842298144 said:

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I know how the law is interpreted, but answer me this: If being forgiven a payment, as tuition is forgiven, amounts to a salary, then every home owner with subsidy-reduced mortgage payments works for Bank of America.

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If the relationships were similar in all other respects, you might have a point. Of course, since home owners do not receive their subsidies from Bank of America in exchange for services which are explicitly directed by Bank of America and from which Bank of America derives financial value, the comparison is daft.

Rushinbear said:

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This is not a Hobson's Choice for these players. They can play in Div III. They can opt for semi-pro ball in just about every metro area in the country. Or, they can go out of the country.

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Yeah, that's the menu that workers should be forced to choose from when facing systemic abuse by industry owners: go semi-pro or leave the country.

Your list of alternatives to FBS football for guys who have the chops to play there is absurd. Division III players don't get athletic scholarships. What "semi-pro" leagues? The biggest "semi-pro" league is the Arena league, which offers $850/game to players. Most "semi-pro" leagues are much smaller.

"Or they can go out of the country"...haha, and play where, India?

Rushinbear said:

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And, they can negotiate the terms and conditions of their offers before choosing their school...and they can transfer if they feel like they chose the wrong one.

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They can't negotiate their compensation, beyond simply receiving a scholarship offer or not. As for any other "conditions," like 'I'll come to your school only if you let me play wide receiver', these are enforceable, how?

And yeah, they can transfer, if they're willing to sit out a year (or to a lower division). But how does that solve their problem? They're not going to be able to negotiate their compensation there either.

Rushinbear said:

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What will happen to the game if coaches are required to mediate with a business agent every time a player thinks he should be starting? WWE, that's what.

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Uhh, yeah, WWE was the most reasonable comparison. Not a comparison to another pro football league, like say the NFL?

Then there's this:

Quote:

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Athlete unionization doubtful in Virginia, other right to work states
Only athletes in private colleges affected

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http://www.vagazette.com/sports/va-vg-sprt-ncaaathletesformunion-0329-20140329,0,1563688.story

BTW, Virginia Gazette has been in constant publication in Williamsburg since pre-Revolution.

Good post rhea. I would only add that like any cartel the NCAA has little regard for the inputs of its enterprise only the revenue. Profits therefore are always maximized without regard to anything else. If they weren't so greedy this could have been headed off years ago.

KevBear;842298153 said:

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If the relationships were similar in all other respects, you might have a point. Of course, since home owners do not receive their subsidies from Bank of America in exchange for services which are explicitly directed by Bank of America and from which Bank of America derives financial value, the comparison is daft.




Yeah, that's the menu that workers should be forced to choose from when facing systemic abuse by industry owners: go semi-pro or leave the country.

Your list of alternatives to FBS football for guys who have the chops to play there is absurd. Division III players don't get athletic scholarships. What "semi-pro" leagues? The biggest "semi-pro" league is the Arena league, which offers $850/game to players. Most "semi-pro" leagues are much smaller.

"Or they can go out of the country"...haha, and play where, India?



They can't negotiate their compensation, beyond simply receiving a scholarship offer or not. As for any other "conditions," like 'I'll come to your school only if you let me play wide receiver', these are enforceable, how?

And yeah, they can transfer, if they're willing to sit out a year (or to a lower division). But how does that solve their problem? They're not going to be able to negotiate their compensation there either.



Uhh, yeah, WWE was the most reasonable comparison. Not a comparison to another pro football league, like say the NFL?

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KB - all the good, standard arguments for unionization. So, have you been hollering about this off and on for the last what, oh, 30 years? Funny, I haven't noticed.

Seriously, though, this whole set up is a sewer. We all agree on that. But, dredging up another collective bargaining relief act to address a situation containing issues marginal to the sewer, at most, smacks of Saul Alinsky and his present day adherents.

Is unionizing the best we can do? Really? I suspect that the spectre of business agents interviewing malcontent players on the practice field, or players voting for a player rep to take time off from practice to conduct "union business" will be enough to get the NCAA and its members to get off their asses and propose something real.

As far as my points are concerned, an ever increasing percentage of NFL players come from Div III schools. And, no one says that, because a kid thinks that the NFL is the best place for him, he has a right to employment there. Life, after all, isn't fair. Aren't there teams in Eng, Germ, Japan, now? As for my WWE crack, it's not too different from a fair number of organized workplaces, anymore, e.g. the NYC public school system.

KevBear;842298153 said:

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If the relationships were similar in all other respects, you might have a point. Of course, since home owners do not receive their subsidies from Bank of America in exchange for services which are explicitly directed by Bank of America and from which Bank of America derives financial value, the comparison is daft.




Yeah, that's the menu that workers should be forced to choose from when facing systemic abuse by industry owners: go semi-pro or leave the country.

Your list of alternatives to FBS football for guys who have the chops to play there is absurd. Division III players don't get athletic scholarships. What "semi-pro" leagues? The biggest "semi-pro" league is the Arena league, which offers $850/game to players. Most "semi-pro" leagues are much smaller.

"Or they can go out of the country"...haha, and play where, India?



They can't negotiate their compensation, beyond simply receiving a scholarship offer or not. As for any other "conditions," like 'I'll come to your school only if you let me play wide receiver', these are enforceable, how?

And yeah, they can transfer, if they're willing to sit out a year (or to a lower division). But how does that solve their problem? They're not going to be able to negotiate their compensation there either.



Uhh, yeah, WWE was the most reasonable comparison. Not a comparison to another pro football league, like say the NFL?

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Oh, I forgot one other thing. How many "athlete students" do you think will vote for a union knowing that they will have to pay income taxes on the purported value of all those benefits they now "receive"? You think they want Uncle on their asses trying to maximize their taxable income?

KevBear;842298153 said:

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Your list of alternatives to FBS football for guys who have the chops to play there is absurd. Division III players don't get athletic scholarships. What "semi-pro" leagues? The biggest "semi-pro" league is the Arena league, which offers $850/game to players. Most "semi-pro" leagues are much smaller.

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If the players have the value that many here believe they have, semi-pro and/or minor leagues for football and basketball would be sprouting up all over the place to capitalize on this inefficiency becoming exploitable.

And yet, there are still a goodly number of players, many from the very same socioecononic group that fills DI rosters, that attend school and play sports without scholarships in DIII (as well as walk-ons at higher levels). I've always contended that a large percentage of athletes, pro and "amateur", would play their sports for free if that were the only alternative. There's no question things need to change but I really don't expect to see universities lining up to add athletes to their employee populations.

Rushinbear;842298144 said:

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One last thing about NLRB Ruling.

I know how the law is interpreted, but answer me this: If being forgiven a payment, as tuition is forgiven, amounts to a salary, then every home owner with subsidy-reduced mortgage payments works for Bank of America.

This is not a Hobson's Choice for these players. They can play in Div III. They can opt for semi-pro ball in just about every metro area in the country. Or, they can go out of the country. And, they can negotiate the terms and conditions of their offers before choosing their school...and they can transfer if they feel like they chose the wrong one.

What will happen to the game if coaches are required to mediate with a business agent every time a player thinks he should be starting? WWE, that's what.

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It's very simple: change the relationship from that of employed athlete with a who happens to also be a student to that of student-athlete. That is student first and foremost, athlete second.

Cut back on the hours devoted to football so that academics is the primary focus of the hours spent at the NCAA member institution.

If the NFL wants to draft players who perform at a higher level than is possible under a true student-athlete system, then they can fund their own minor leagues.

All the problems you describe of college coaches dealing with agents, etc. disappear because the relationship between the NCAA member institution and the athlete is that of academic institution to a student-athlete.

In other words, go back to the 1940s. Oh wait, even then (and before*) many players were students in name only, although the time commitment to the sport was vastly less than is the norm today.

*My stepfather used to recount this story: He graduated from Everett, WA HS in 1924. His former coach was Emmett Bagshaw who was then at UW and Bagshaw recruited him to play for the Huskies. When the subject of academics was raised, my stepdad was told "we'll get someone to go to class for you". Amazingly, he passed up that opportunity to work in a lumber processing job that paid $2. a day!

slider643;842298216 said:

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If the players have the value that many here believe they have, semi-pro and/or minor leagues for football and basketball would be sprouting up all over the place to capitalize on this inefficiency becoming exploitable.

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No, I explained to you why this is not true in the other thread, an explanation you chose to ignore.

The brand power held by many FBS programs--brand power that no minor league franchise could realistically hope to match, gives college football far stronger marketing potential than any minor league. This is why college football has much higher revenue than a minor league would.

It therefore may be that college football programs represent the most lucrative market for 18 to 22 year old football players, but only if it is an open market, which it is not. The enterprise owners in the market--the Universities--have struck an agreement to not use wages to compete for talent.

This is why you cannot base an evaluation of the players' market value on the current system. The anti-competitive collusion between the schools has suppressed the players value within the college football market. How much money do you think USC would offer Josh Rosen to play for them if they were allowed to? I don't know either, but I'm certain it's a hell of a lot more than a scholarship is worth.