sycasey;842324889 said:

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Another bad offside call negates a perfectly good goal by the Swiss (fortunately they won anyway). Tell me why it's important to worry about offside on a pass already in the box?

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That was not a good call under the rules now. No need to change rules when they are not the problem, right? Or maybe if they can't get it right and refuse to review in the most profitable game in sports, maybe the game should be changed to make up for it?

Phantomfan;842324941 said:

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That was not a good call under the rules now. No need to change rules when they are not the problem, right? Or maybe if they can't get it right and refuse to review in the most profitable game in sports, maybe the game should be changed to make up for it?

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I think modifying the rules would make it less likely for that kind of missed call to happen, and not have any noticeable effect on game play. It would be a simple tweak: any passes between players already in the penalty area cannot be called for offside. That way the refs don't have to wonder about who touched it last on a deflection, or exactly where the last defender was when 6 to 8 players are all crowded in a small area and jostling for position. It's almost impossible for refs to make that call from the sideline at full speed, so just remove it from their responsibilities. You'd also probably increase scoring, but only a little bit.

Once the ball has been kicked into the penalty area I don't see where the offense gains an unfair advantage by being offside anyway. The purpose of the rule is to prevent teams from just sitting a couple of guys near the opposing goal all the time. That would mean nothing but "Hail Mary" passes to them and would make the game pretty ugly. But waving it off when the ball is already in the box would not create any major issues that I can see. Again, if some of the bigger soccer fans here can think of one, I'm waiting to hear it.

sycasey;842324946 said:

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I think modifying the rules would make it less likely for that kind of missed call to happen, and not have any noticeable effect on game play. It would be a simple tweak: any passes between players already in the penalty area cannot be called for offside. That way the refs don't have to wonder about who touched it last on a deflection, or exactly where the last defender was when 6 to 8 players are all crowded in a small area and jostling for position. It's almost impossible for refs to make that call from the sideline at full speed, so just remove it from their responsibilities. You'd also probably increase scoring, but only a little bit.

Once the ball has been kicked into the penalty area I don't see where the offense gains an unfair advantage by being offside anyway. The purpose of the rule is to prevent teams from just sitting a couple of guys near the opposing goal all the time. That would mean nothing but "Hail Mary" passes to them and would make the game pretty ugly. But waving it off when the ball is already in the box would not create any major issues that I can see. Again, if some of the bigger soccer fans here can think of one, I'm waiting to hear it.

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+1 but the purists won't buy it, especially from an American as it is there game, not ours (but slowly becoming so starting with the women's game)

OdontoBear66;842324948 said:

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+1 but the purists won't buy it, especially from an American as it is there game, not ours (but slowly becoming so starting with the women's game)

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That is really the sense I get about soccer rules. There is a certain extreme reverence for them, to the point where they are almost sacrosanct. (I mean, check out the tone of TheBearsHaveWon's posts here, as an official within the game -- nothing against him, as that is his job, but it's pretty clear that there is going to be a lot of resistance to changing anything.)

tabear82;842324888 said:

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OK, that works! I appreciate the advice!

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Forgot to warn you about all those pesky pop ups. Hope you just clicked on all the little X's and didn't accidentally download something =x.

sycasey;842324964 said:

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That is really the sense I get about soccer rules. There is a certain extreme reverence for them, to the point where they are almost sacrosanct. (I mean, check out the tone of TheBearsHaveWon's posts here, as an official within the game -- nothing against him, as that is his job, but it's pretty clear that there is going to be a lot of resistance to changing anything.)

---

Sycasey
Actually there are law changes every year. IFAB, not FIFA, is responsible for the LotG. Note the use of fifth and sixth officials in recent years as well as the use of goal line technology to verify whether a ball has fully crossed the goal line in goal-scoring situations. This is a fairly significant change.

Offside is not that difficult a law, yet it is the single most misunderstood and vilified law. Mostly by those who are least informed by how it works. The American networks actually propagate these misunderstandings as they employ announcers who do not fully understand the laws. They once tried bringing in Law experts who would explain the laws on air but they soon departed from this approach. There was a subsequent lessening in controversy that the networks believed was necessary to build up interest in the sport.

Hence the rise of many Myths of the Laws and US tv viewers believing there is a general inconsistency in their enforcement on the field.

Finally, I have done nothing here but provide explanation and clarification of the laws as they exist today.

TheBearsHaveWon;842324972 said:

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Sycasey
Actually there are law changes every year. IFAB, not FIFA, is responsible for the LotG. Note the use of fifth and sixth officials in recent years as well as the use of goal line technology to verify whether a ball has fully crossed the goal line in goal-scoring situations. This is a fairly significant change.

Offside is not that difficult a law, yet it is the single most misunderstood and vilified law. Mostly by those who are least informed by how it works. The American networks actually propagate these misunderstandings as they employ announcers who do not fully understand the laws. They once tried bringing in Law experts who would explain the laws on air but they soon departed from this approach. There was a subsequent lessening in controversy that the networks believed was necessary to build up interest in the sport.

Hence the rise of many Myths of the Laws and US tv viewers believing there is a general inconsistency in their enforcement on the field.

Finally, I have done nothing here but provide explanation and clarification of the laws as they exist today.

---

The Bears Have Won: Please clarify for me, for I have coached for eight years, had 3 of 4 grandchildren involved in soccer up to the college scholarship level, and I cannot count the number of games I have seen and coached. But to me offsides is simple (and please emphatically correct me if I am wrong), is that it occurs if the offensive player involved is beyond the second to last defensive player (the last usually being the goalie, but not always) when the ball is KICKED, not received, not perceived, but when KICKED. Man if I am wrong I will eat crow big time. 90% plus of high level club soccer games the AR does not understand this. They call it when, running the sideline, they look up. WRONG. At least that is what I understand about offsides, and yes, I know it is more complex than that, but it is the simple that paid refs screw up according to my understanding.

TheBearsHaveWon;842324972 said:

---

Sycasey
Actually there are law changes every year. IFAB, not FIFA, is responsible for the LotG. Note the use of fifth and sixth officials in recent years as well as the use of goal line technology to verify whether a ball has fully crossed

---

These definitely constitute changes in processes and technology to help enforce the current rules more accurately, but not specifically a change to the laws themselves. Have their been other changes recently to the laws themselves?

Though I did look up some history of the offside rule and did see that in the 90s they changed the rule to say that a player does not have to be IN FRONT OF the last defender to avoid offside, but that they could be LEVEL with the defender and still be considered onside. So there is some evidence that the law can be tweaked.

Anyway, I want to make it clear that I'm not calling you out specifically. I understand and appreciate that you are simply trying to provide clarity on the rules as they stand now. My argument is more that the rules could be changed to help avoid some of the missed calls we see now.

sycasey;842324946 said:

---

I think modifying the rules would make it less likely for that kind of missed call to happen, and not have any noticeable effect on game play. It would be a simple tweak: any passes between players already in the penalty area cannot be called for offside. That way the refs don't have to wonder about who touched it last on a deflection, or exactly where the last defender was when 6 to 8 players are all crowded in a small area and jostling for position. It's almost impossible for refs to make that call from the sideline at full speed, so just remove it from their responsibilities. You'd also probably increase scoring, but only a little bit.

Once the ball has been kicked into the penalty area I don't see where the offense gains an unfair advantage by being offside anyway. The purpose of the rule is to prevent teams from just sitting a couple of guys near the opposing goal all the time. That would mean nothing but "Hail Mary" passes to them and would make the game pretty ugly. But waving it off when the ball is already in the box would not create any major issues that I can see. Again, if some of the bigger soccer fans here can think of one, I'm waiting to hear it.

---

I am not going to defend offside rule, and didn't see the Swiss play you referred to, but will clarify a couple of things:
Refs don't have to worry about who touched it last on a deflection as you note, because that isn't the rule - what governs offside is who last played the ball. So if an attacking player kicks the ball and it deflects off other players, in an uncontrolled manner where these players don't "control" the play of the ball, the attacking team controlled the play last and one of their players will be in an offside position if they are not level with either the second to last defender [U]or the ball[/U] (when it is played, kicked in this case). People often forget this last part of offside, one can never be offside if they are behind the ball when it is played.

OdontoBear66;842324975 said:

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The Bears Have Won: Please clarify for me, for I have coached for eight years, had 3 of 4 grandchildren involved in soccer up to the college scholarship level, and I cannot count the number of games I have seen and coached. But to me offsides is simple (and please emphatically correct me if I am wrong), is that it occurs if the offensive player involved is beyond the second to last defensive player (the last usually being the goalie, but not always) when the ball is KICKED, not received, not perceived, but when KICKED. Man if I am wrong I will eat crow big time. 90% plus of high level club soccer games the AR does not understand this. They call it when, running the sideline, they look up. WRONG. At least that is what I understand about offsides, and yes, I know it is more complex than that, but it is the simple that paid refs screw up according to my understanding.

---

Odonto:
Sorry to have to correct you in so public a forum but you said you were open to such correction.

Offside is NOT called every time an attacker is a player in an offside position (PIOP) at the moment the ball is last TOUCHED - doesn't have to be kicked - by a teammate. IT IS NOT IN AND OF ITSELF AN OFFENSE TO BE IN AN OFFSIDE POSITION. The AR must implement a Wait and See approach for the player in an offside position must subsequently get involved in active play. This is one of the reasons ARs are vilified for being "late" in making an offside call when, in fact, their mechanics are perfectly sound.

Conversely, there are times when a player will NOT be sanctioned for offside even if they are a PIOP at the moment the ball is touched by a teammate and the PIOP is in the area of active play. There are several ways a player is judged to have been involved in active play (care to venture a guess? - and no fair using Google - use your current knowledge/understanding of Law 11). I would wager there are times you have been absolutely sure a player should have been sanctioned for offside and the AR "missed" the call. Be honest, if only to yourself, on this point for likely the AR was correct.

As for high school and colleges in the US, they have chosen to not be member organizations to USSF. As such, they do not use the LotG, choosing instead to adhere to their own (and to me a much more complex) set of rules. Likely your experience with these rules does not exactly translate to the LotG.

Just realized I have used that acronym without definition. LotG == Laws of the Game.

To your point, there are several ways in which a player can be Onside when beyond the second to last defender. A player cannot be offside, no matter the position in relation to the opponents, if on his/her own half of the field. It is for this reason that assistant referees never venture beyond the halfway line. No need as they do not call offside on that half of the field.

Again another Myth. The second to last defender's position does not always constitute the offside demarcation line. The second half of positioning is almost universally unknown to the American viewer. A player can be onside when beyond the second to last defender if the BALL is closer to the goal line than the player. To be judged offside a player must be closer to the goal line than both the second to last defender AND the ball.
In the penalty area, the ball is usually closer to the goal line than the attacking players. No real "tweak" needed here.

And yet another myth. Many still believe that a player cannot be offside if the ball is played "backward" (that is in the opposite direction of the attacked goal).
This, indeed, used to be the case before Law 11 was changed. Now, a player who is in an offside position at the time the ball is last touched by a teammate is restricted from active participation regardless of the direction the ball was played.

There are three restarts (Laws 15, 16 , 17 - the throw in, the goal kick, the corner kick) during which a player receiving the ball directly (that is not touched by any other player) from a teammate is exempt from being sanctioned for offside.

On your last point, when possible, watch the AR's mechanics closely. They are trained (and yes some younger officials at the youth level have not yet fully mastered this mechanic. It does take some faith and practice) to run down the touchline while fully facing the field. NOT looking forward. Hence, they do not "look up" at the last moment to judge offside. Again, be honest. In your coaching career, how many times did you impede an AR by moving all the way to the touch line? You were not only impeding the AR but actually putting them in danger of a nasty collision because, again, facing the field, they were not aware you had moved to the touch line. This is why they are so "anal" about you staying two meters away from touch.

Finally, how many times were you absolutely sure a player should be sanctioned for "gaining an advantage". Again, care to venture a guess - still no fair using Google - how this is judged?

sycasey;842324978 said:

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These definitely constitute changes in processes and technology to help enforce the current rules more accurately, but not specifically a change to the laws themselves. Have their been other changes recently to the laws themselves?

Though I did look up some history of the offside rule and did see that in the 90s they changed the rule to say that a player does not have to be IN FRONT OF the last defender to avoid offside, but that they could be LEVEL with the defender and still be considered onside. So there is some evidence that the law can be tweaked.

Anyway, I want to make it clear that I'm not calling you out specifically. I understand and appreciate that you are simply trying to provide clarity on the rules as they stand now. My argument is more that the rules could be changed to help avoid some of the missed calls we see now.

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Sycasey:
Law changes occur yearly and do require a rewording of the laws. I have to buy a new LotG book every year to stay current with the laws. Coincidentally, law 11 received some changes just last year. 2013/2014 IFAB Circular: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/02/10/67/39/circularno.1362-amendmentstothelawsofthegame-2013-2014_neutral.pdf

2014/2015 Circular changed Law 4
http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/02/33/57/82/circularno.1419-amendmentstothelawsofthegame-20142015_neutral.pdf

goldenokiebear;842324983 said:

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I am not going to defend offside rule, and didn't see the Swiss play you referred to, but will clarify a couple of things:
Refs don't have to worry about who touched it last on a deflection as you note, because that isn't the rule - what governs offside is who last played the ball. So if an attacking player kicks the ball and it deflects off other players, in an uncontrolled manner where these players don't "control" the play of the ball, the attacking team controlled the play last and one of their players will be in an offside position if they are not level with either the second to last defender [U]or the ball[/U] (when it is played, kicked in this case). People often forget this last part of offside, one can never be offside if they are behind the ball when it is played.

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From what I've been seeing (including the play in the Switzerland game), some legitimate goals are being disallowed because a ball is played in to the box, then gets deflected to an offensive player who kicks it in. The referee thinks the deflection is a deliberate play on the ball by an offensive player, who calls offside on the subsequent "pass." Replay shows that in fact a DEFENSIVE player deflected the ball, or it wasn't actually touched at all by the offense, but because of the congestion in front of the goal, the referee on the sideline misreads it and calls offside. So here it seems that who touched it last actually IS an important distinction.

My proposal would be to tweak the rules to take this out of consideration. Once a ball is played into the box, a subsequent pass to another player in the box cannot be called for offside. If the ball is played out of the box, then any subsequent pass does have to be onside.

sycasey;842324996 said:

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From what I've been seeing (including the play in the Switzerland game), some legitimate goals are being disallowed because a ball is played in to the box, then gets deflected to an offensive player who kicks it in. The referee thinks the deflection is a deliberate play on the ball by an offensive player, who calls offside on the subsequent "pass." Replay shows that in fact a DEFENSIVE player deflected the ball, or it wasn't actually touched at all by the offense, but because of the congestion in front of the goal, the referee on the sideline misreads it and calls offside. So here it seems that who touched it last actually IS an important distinction.

My proposal would be to tweak the rules to take this out of consideration. Once a ball is played into the box, a subsequent pass to another player in the box cannot be called for offside. If the ball is played out of the box, then any subsequent pass does have to be onside.

---

Sycasey
I did not see the specific play you are referencing and could not comment on the specifics even if I had.

Here is offside:

If a player is in an offside position at the moment the ball is last TOUCHED, controlled or otherwise and not necessarily kicked, by a teammate and subsequently is involved in active play, that player has committed an offside violation.

If the ball is deflected off an opponent, having last been TOUCHED by a teammate, the PIOP is still restricted from partipation in play. If there is a subsequent touch (note, still not necessarily controlled - merely touched) by a teammate of the PIOP, and the player was still in an offside position at the moment of that touch and subsequently gets involved in active play a violation has occurred.

Only if the ball is controlled and played by an opponent (the PIOP cannot immediately challenge the opponent) can the PIOP then again participate in active play. The PIOP remains restricted until the opponents control and play the ball or subsequently returns to an onside position and the player's teammate(s) next touch the ball.

All I know is Portugal has fell'd apart.

Shenanigans!

Deutschland just killed the Group of Death.

3-0 over Portugal at the half.

Germany taking out stars early.

Ronaldo's hair looks sad. I want a gif of that.

Germany looking scary good. And the USA is in their group. Yay!

sycasey;842325053 said:

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Germany looking scary good. And the USA is in their group. Yay!

---

Portugal getting worked. Dayum!

4-0 Deutschland.

Mueller scores three.

The number 4 world team, Portugal, gets dismantled by the number 2 world team Germany.

And Ronaldo's hair still looks sad, he'd better get to his stylist soon.

Beat Ghana. Tie Portugal. Lose to Germany by 1 goal and we should be through.

TheBearsHaveWon;842324998 said:

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Sycasey
I did not see the specific play you are referencing and could not comment on the specifics even if I had.

Here is offside:

If a player is in an offside position at the moment the ball is last TOUCHED, controlled or otherwise and not necessarily kicked, by a teammate and subsequently is involved in active play, that player has committed an offside violation.

If the ball is deflected off an opponent, having last been TOUCHED by a teammate, the PIOP is still restricted from partipation in play. If there is a subsequent touch (note, still not necessarily controlled - merely touched) by a teammate of the PIOP, and the player was still in an offside position at the moment of that touch and subsequently gets involved in active play a violation has occurred.

Only if the ball is controlled and played by an opponent (the PIOP cannot immediately challenge the opponent) can the PIOP then again participate in active play. The PIOP remains restricted until the opponents control and play the ball or subsequently returns to an onside position and the player's teammate(s) next touch the ball.

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But in the the situation sycasey notes, the player is NOT initially in offside position when the ball is played, and the ball is deflected to them off players... they weren't in PIOP when the ball was played, but moved forward AFTER it's kicked and deflected off players. So they aren't offside.

93gobears;842325055 said:

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4-0 Deutschland.

Mueller scores three.

The number 4 world team, Portugal, gets dismantled by the number 2 world team Germany.

And Ronaldo's hair still looks sad, he'd better get to his stylist soon.

---

Did Pepe deserve a red? I thought that was a little harsh, esp since Muller did fake being hit in the head (when it was more like a swipe to the neck).

KoreAmBear;842325077 said:

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Did Pepe deserve a red? I thought that was a little harsh, esp since Muller did fake being hit in the head (when it was more like a swipe to the neck).

---

Ha made contact. That type of aggression is a no-no. If a player on the US did that I would be fine with him being red carded.

Pepe's reputation of being the dirtiest player on the planet probably had something to do with it. Regardless, he is a very good player.

No Pepe vs the US is good for us.

sycasey;842325053 said:

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Germany looking scary good. And the USA is in their group. Yay!

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By winning 4-0 Germany is in the driver's seat. Germany can now let up and play defense for wins. I'm certain those games against Ghana and the US are wins. What Germany would like to do is to prevent Portugal from moving on. So they play both teams differently (the US for 1-0 win a light, and Ghana set for further destruction with a huge point differential) while Portugal is still saddled right off the bat with a 4 point differential.

If the US: 1) gets a win over Ghana later today; 2) plays Portugal tight (think point differential) next Sunday, June 22; 3) gets a win by Ghana over Portugal on Thurs. June 26; 4) it could send the Group of Death into tumult where : a) the final Group G game is between the US and Germany, b) the German's have ensured moving on and are happy to get rid of the dangerous Portuguese, c) the Germans can justify resting their star players, let the American's win, and d) both teams have German nationals for coaches.

Jurgen Klinsmann is a master of World Cup strategy.

Of course Team USA needs to finally win over Ghana.

SoCalBear323;842325064 said:

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Beat Ghana. Tie Portugal. Lose to Germany by 1 goal and we should be through.

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Independent thought.

I enjoy it despite me writing a novel to explain what you so simply did.

:bravo

KoreAmBear;842325077 said:

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Did Pepe deserve a red? I thought that was a little harsh, esp since Muller did fake being hit in the head (when it was more like a swipe to the neck).

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He absolutely deserved a red card. The initial hit would have been fine, ref signaled to play on. As soon as Pepe connected his head, he was possibly violating 2 and 6.

From the FIFA rule book:
Sending-Off Offences
There are seven offences for which a player, substitute or substituted player
can be sent off and shown the red card if he:
1.is guilty of serious foul play
2.is guilty of violent conduct
3. spits at an opponent or at any other person
4. denies the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-
scoring opportunity by deliberately handling the ball
(this does not apply to a goalkeeper within his own
penalty area)
5. denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an
opponent moving towards the player's goal by an
offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick
6. uses offensive or insulting or abusive language and/or
gestures
7.receives a second caution in the same match

SoCalBear323;842325079 said:

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Ha made contact. That type of aggression is a no-no. If a player on the US did that I would be fine with him being red carded.

Pepe's reputation of being the dirtiest player on the planet probably had something to do with it. Regardless, he is a very good player.

No Pepe vs the US is good for us.

---

Yup. I was thinking his reputation preceded him. Things got better for the USMNT, depending on how we do today (so excited!!!!). You think Portugal comes out mad on Sunday or depressed? I'm thinking they still may be in shock.

KoreAmBear;842325084 said:

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Yup. I was thinking his reputation preceded him. Things got better for the USMNT, depending on how we do today (so excited!!!!). You think Portugal comes out mad on Sunday or depressed? I'm thinking they still may be in shock.

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I think the first 15 minutes of the US/Portugal game will be crucial. If the US comes out attacking they will break Portugal down mentally. Ronaldo is no leader, if we score first we win.

goldenokiebear;842325067 said:

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But in the the situation sycasey notes, the player is NOT initially in offside position when the ball is played, and the ball is deflected to them off players... they weren't in PIOP when the ball was played, but moved forward AFTER it's kicked and deflected off players. So they aren't offside.

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That was the case on the corner as well...


The rule is either not clear, or something is missing?

SoCalBear323;842325079 said:

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Ha made contact. That type of aggression is a no-no. If a player on the US did that I would be fine with him being red carded.

Pepe's reputation of being the dirtiest player on the planet probably had something to do with it. Regardless, he is a very good player.

No Pepe vs the US is good for us.

---

He would have been sent off in any sport. Headbutting a down opponent? That does not fly in many sports. In football it is sometimes ignored because of helmets, though, but still...


Dude should get an additional game. If they make it to the knockout, he can play.

SoCalBear323;842325103 said:

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I think the first 15 minutes of the US/Portugal game will be crucial. If the US comes out attacking they will break Portugal down mentally. Ronaldo is no leader, if we score first we win.

---

Renaldo looked like someone whooped his puppy or something...

His whole body said "IDGAF" after the half...




I feel there is a good chance he will be well rested for Berkeley

TheBearsHaveWon;842324993 said:

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Odonto:
Sorry to have to correct you in so public a forum but you said you were open to such correction.

Offside is NOT called every time an attacker is a player in an offside position (PIOP) at the moment the ball is last TOUCHED - doesn't have to be kicked - by a teammate. IT IS NOT IN AND OF ITSELF AN OFFENSE TO BE IN AN OFFSIDE POSITION. The AR must implement a Wait and See approach for the player in an offside position must subsequently get involved in active play. This is one of the reasons ARs are vilified for being "late" in making an offside call when, in fact, their mechanics are perfectly sound.

Conversely, there are times when a player will NOT be sanctioned for offside even if they are a PIOP at the moment the ball is touched by a teammate and the PIOP is in the area of active play. There are several ways a player is judged to have been involved in active play (care to venture a guess? - and no fair using Google - use your current knowledge/understanding of Law 11). I would wager there are times you have been absolutely sure a player should have been sanctioned for offside and the AR "missed" the call. Be honest, if only to yourself, on this point for likely the AR was correct.

As for high school and colleges in the US, they have chosen to not be member organizations to USSF. As such, they do not use the LotG, choosing instead to adhere to their own (and to me a much more complex) set of rules. Likely your experience with these rules does not exactly translate to the LotG.

Just realized I have used that acronym without definition. LotG == Laws of the Game.

To your point, there are several ways in which a player can be Onside when beyond the second to last defender. A player cannot be offside, no matter the position in relation to the opponents, if on his/her own half of the field. It is for this reason that assistant referees never venture beyond the halfway line. No need as they do not call offside on that half of the field.

Again another Myth. The second to last defender's position does not always constitute the offside demarcation line. The second half of positioning is almost universally unknown to the American viewer. A player can be onside when beyond the second to last defender if the BALL is closer to the goal line than the player. To be judged offside a player must be closer to the goal line than both the second to last defender AND the ball.
In the penalty area, the ball is usually closer to the goal line than the attacking players. No real "tweak" needed here.

And yet another myth. Many still believe that a player cannot be offside if the ball is played "backward" (that is in the opposite direction of the attacked goal).
This, indeed, used to be the case before Law 11 was changed. Now, a player who is in an offside position at the time the ball is last touched by a teammate is restricted from active participation regardless of the direction the ball was played.

There are three restarts (Laws 15, 16 , 17 - the throw in, the goal kick, the corner kick) during which a player receiving the ball directly (that is not touched by any other player) from a teammate is exempt from being sanctioned for offside.

On your last point, when possible, watch the AR's mechanics closely. They are trained (and yes some younger officials at the youth level have not yet fully mastered this mechanic. It does take some faith and practice) to run down the touchline while fully facing the field. NOT looking forward. Hence, they do not "look up" at the last moment to judge offside. Again, be honest. In your coaching career, how many times did you impede an AR by moving all the way to the touch line? You were not only impeding the AR but actually putting them in danger of a nasty collision because, again, facing the field, they were not aware you had moved to the touch line. This is why they are so "anal" about you staying two meters away from touch.

Finally, how many times were you absolutely sure a player should be sanctioned for "gaining an advantage". Again, care to venture a guess - still no fair using Google - how this is judged?

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Thank you very much for such a detailed summary of offside. I certainly needed it, and I think many others do as well. Most of what you say I believe I was aware of, like PIOP not being instrumental in the play, and no offsides on the defensive end of one's field, as well as the ball's position to the end line. My coaching and watching experience is/was mostly at the AYSO, ECNL club and HS soccer venues, so what I have experienced more as a fan than as a coach, is the AR not doing his job properly and being in position to make the call, rendering a questionable call. It is usually when a player bursts thru the last defender reasonably long after the ball is kicked to advance it to him/her.

Regardless, your summary is great for all of us as we watch the World Cup. I certainly was unaware of the potential of offsides when a ball is played backward. Thank you very much.

Phantomfan;842325113 said:

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That was the case on the corner as well...


The rule is either not clear, or something is missing?

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I think the primary issue is that the referees are thinking they saw another offensive player redirect the ball to his teammate, when in fact they never touched it. Simple instance of a referee being wrong and missing the call, which happens in every sport.

Phantomfan;842325113 said:

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That was the case on the corner as well...


The rule is either not clear, or something is missing?

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The rule is actually really clear. TBHW can't say this, but I sure can (and will again) - the ref did not have a problem with the clarity of the rule, he had a problem seeing who touched the ball. Human mistake. Whatever. It's no like falling for a flop and it's truly a split second decision. Mistakes like this happen all the time in other sports - like a deflection out of bounds in basketball - how many times is that reviewed? A lot. But usually those are on the sidelines and don't affect a goal. Now they review bang bang plays in MLB. A lot are overturned because TV technology is just really sharp these days.

I've also made this point before, probably last world cup - offsides is not an easy call to make because the linesman has to keep track of when the ball is kicked by an offensive player and see where the last defender is in with respect to the receiver at the same time. These events can take place 10, 20, 30, 40 yards from each other and not along the same angle either. This may be considered a dismal view by TBHW, but it's a rule/call that subject to a lot of human error, and we see it repeatedly now with TV being so good. Even the best officials in perfect position, there are going to be missed calls (especially on longer crosses), and you just have live with it (or change the rules).

A small aside, but I remember reading a very interesting article about umpires and the blown call that cost anibel sanchez his perfect game. The bang bang play at first is just not as easy to call as it seems, and of course now with TV, it's easier to see mistakes. It's hard for the 1b umpire to really focus on the glove and the bag to see which comes first (and we are talking an arms length of distance, not 20-30 yards) - so they are actually trained to listen to the sound. I think someone claimed that a blindfolded ump was more accurate than when looking at the play because they just focused on the sound of the pop of the ball in glove versus the sound of the foot on the bag. And at some camps, they train umps that way just to get them used to the sounds. Now on the sanchez perfect game play, the pitcher was covering first and the throw was a soft toss - thus no sound. Really hard play for an ump. Point is there are limits of human perception that obviously show up on TV.

Sycasey makes an interesting point - if calls are being botched due to errors in perception, is there a way to make it easier to call through rule changes? In ways that take the pressure off the official? Hockey's offside rules is much easier to call. Obviously, soccer is not going that direction, but when you do see repeated errors on the highest levels, often completely embarrassing - it seems a fair question is whether the problem is with the officials or the rules. You could even take this so far as to question whether a penalty kick is an appropriate response to a foul in the box? Obviously refs are falling for flops over and over and over. So figure out a way to not make the penalty so binary. [Or just go with it and embrace the cheating and ethically questionable practice of flopping and be happy like the rest of the world seems to be with it].

RioGrrandeFan;842324619 said:

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I think TBHW has it right, the offside position was judged at the moment the ball hit the defender. Doesn't matter which team touched it, it's offside either way going by the rules.

I'm guessing the rule is written that way so you can't pass a ball to a teammate in offside position by bouncing it off of a defender. Doesn't seem fair in the Dos Santos case, however.

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I'm almost certain TBHW and I are in agreement on the rules on this one. I certainly wasn't arguing with him, just offering a clarification applicable to this situation.

And it does matter which player touched it as it's judged by position when the last teammate played the ball. And yes, bouncing it off a defender doesn't change the fact a player was offside.

sycasey;842325142 said:

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I think the primary issue is that the referees are thinking they saw another offensive player redirect the ball to his teammate, when in fact they never touched it. Simple instance of a referee being wrong and missing the call, which happens in every sport.

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Sycasey
Not to belabor the point but a PIOP will ALWAYS be restricted from participation in active play if a ball last touched by a teammate is deflected off any other player whether teammate or opponent before it reaches the PIOP.