GB54;842588180 said:

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The reason I think this is a big deal is that the players and football were not the issue, but they embraced the issue as their own-not only black players but white ones and the coach-and used their power to force change. This is about a lot more than Halloween at Yale and it's also interesting to me that this and the first openly gay football player came out of the same place.

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You're right. After reading the news articles it's clear there were many groups involved and it was on-going. Some faculty, staff, non-black students were ready or supported a boycott. FB just grabbed the headlines. Good point about Michael Sam. Pinkel and the team knew and wasn't an issue.

One thing I found interesting, Wolfe isn't an academic or prof. He's a former business exec with a MBA from Mizzou. Seems like they bought the business leadership canard, whereas a trained and seasoned university administrator might have handled this differently or at least with more tact.

GB54;842587750 said:

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Let's let our anger and dissension over Cal football be replaced by anger and dissension over this story. Missouri football players are going to boycott games over a number of racial incidents on campus and the President's alleged failure to act. Very interesting story.


http://http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/us/missouri-football-players-boycott-in-protest-of-university-president.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-regionion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

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Now, the president is gone. Does anyone not believe that this is the first battle in the war? And, that others will see how the protestors were accorded power and do the same thing where they are? This will have ripple effects throughout the university world and the outcome will determine whether we have a higher education system as we know it, going forward.

Rushinbear;842588259 said:

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Now, the president is gone. Does anyone not believe that this is the first battle in the war? And, that others will see how the protestors were accorded power and do the same thing where they are? This will have ripple effects throughout the university world and the outcome will determine whether we have a higher education system as we know it, going forward.

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We can only hope

GB54;842588266 said:

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We can only hope

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Meaning?

Rushinbear;842588366 said:

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Meaning?

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I think he's implying the system needs reform as it is.

socaliganbear;842588387 said:

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Whatever it was, apparently a fake account.

interesting...

Edit: It was about the Chancellor stepping down as well, but that appears to be true.

socaliganbear;842588367 said:

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I think he's implying the system needs reform as it is.

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Apparently, there were acts of racial insensitivity on campus. These were not denounced, at least with what some consider sufficient public vigor. That's a reason to reform the higher education system? Especially in an environment of chaos and anarchy?

I doubt that the protestors, or even their advisors, have any kind of capability to formulate a plan of higher ed reform. They know how to yell, to gather in public and dare the opposition to do something about it, but invite from them any idea of how to change things that would actually have the remotest chance of improving anything?

Now, maybe you're talking about a system for preventing racial insensitivity (not what I was referring to, but I'm trying here). Some mention was made of a campus-wide sensitivity training program. Really? As if that hasn't been tried and failed a hundred times over, nationwide?

Can we get over the PC and get real?

im not up to date on the issues that surround this case, but im not sure that I understand how acts of racial prejudices on campus is solely the president of the university's fault. the president of the university is in charge of legislating policies, hopefully to try to prevent or deter such incidences but I just dont see how its something that he can control fully himself. its a societal issue and much worse in places like missouri where there is such deep and historical racial tension. I just dont see how this helps make things better, but see this president of the university as more of a scapegoat for the poor social relations that are going on in that region right now. its not up to one man, the entire region has to learn to tolerate each other

Rushinbear;842588458 said:

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Apparently, there were acts of racial insensitivity on campus. These were not denounced, at least with what some consider sufficient public vigor. That's a reason to reform the higher education system? Especially in an environment of chaos and anarchy?

I doubt that the protestors, or even their advisors, have any kind of capability to formulate a plan of higher ed reform. They know how to yell, to gather in public and dare the opposition to do something about it, but invite from them any idea of how to change things that would actually have the remotest chance of improving anything?

Now, maybe you're talking about a system for preventing racial insensitivity (not what I was referring to, but I'm trying here). Some mention was made of a campus-wide sensitivity training program. Really? As if that hasn't been tried and failed a hundred times over, nationwide?

Can we get over the PC and get real?

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No. And I hate to speak for him, but I think the thought is if you shake the system to its core, reform is inevitable. The racial issues here are beside the point in the larger context. A group of students just brought down a major university's president and chancellor, in a matter of days.

No one is implying that these people, and this specific cause are going to reform the system. It might just be an unintended consequence because the power structure has shifted. They might be fighting for something specific, which you or others may not support, but the outcome is much larger. And many folks not associated with their cause aren't too upset.

Anyway, public school athletes just got a lot more powerful. Certainly more relevant than even the Northwestern case.

socaliganbear;842588499 said:

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No. And I hate to speak for him, but I think the thought is if you shake the system to its core, reform is inevitable. The racial issues here are beside the point in the larger context. A group of students just brought down a major university's president and chancellor, in a matter of days.

No one is implying that these people, and this specific cause are going to reform the system. It might just be an unintended consequence because the power structure has shifted. They might be fighting for something specific, which you or others may not support, but the outcome is much larger. And many folks not associated with their cause aren't too upset.

Anyway, public school athletes just got a lot more powerful. Certainly more relevant than even the Northwestern case.

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I heard that the protests had been going on for a while now, and the football team only jumped aboard recently?

That's true. But it's the FB players joining that made the difference. Even university officials have said so today.

Rushinbear;842588458 said:

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Apparently, there were acts of racial insensitivity on campus. These were not denounced, at least with what some consider sufficient public vigor. That's a reason to reform the higher education system? Especially in an environment of chaos and anarchy?

I doubt that the protestors, or even their advisors, have any kind of capability to formulate a plan of higher ed reform. They know how to yell, to gather in public and dare the opposition to do something about it, but invite from them any idea of how to change things that would actually have the remotest chance of improving anything?

Now, maybe you're talking about a system for preventing racial insensitivity (not what I was referring to, but I'm trying here). Some mention was made of a campus-wide sensitivity training program. Really? As if that hasn't been tried and failed a hundred times over, nationwide?

Can we get over the PC and get real?

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This has been going on for months-there are a number of issues including racism, graduate student pay, graduate student health care that are a lot bigger than racial sensitivity training. The two fired leaders had lost the confidence of both students and faculty; the final straw being the football team. (You can **** with graduate students but not the SEC money). If this is the start of a broad movement of young people that begins addressing the inequities of our society and uses their power to bring change, I would be delighted. If it spilled over into our political system and resulted in a full scale insurrection against our leaders and both political parties resulting in a return of democracy and the destruction of our corrupt system, I would be in utter rapture

socaliganbear;842588509 said:

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That's true. But it's the FB players joining that made the difference. Even university officials have said so today.

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My bad. I forgot football players are students, too.

okaydo;842588527 said:

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My bad. I forgot football players are students, too.

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SEC, dude. Some may be.

Now, back to entertainment!

socaliganbear;842588499 said:

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No. And I hate to speak for him, but I think the thought is if you shake the system to its core, reform is inevitable. The racial issues here are beside the point in the larger context. A group of students just brought down a major university's president and chancellor, in a matter of days.

No one is implying that these people, and this specific cause are going to reform the system. It might just be an unintended consequence because the power structure has shifted. They might be fighting for something specific, which you or others may not support, but the outcome is much larger. And many folks not associated with their cause aren't too upset.

Anyway, public school athletes just got a lot more powerful. Certainly more relevant than even the Northwestern case.

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They discovered that they were accorded the power to bring down the two top people, by their giving up at the start. I was wondering if the Prez said I don't need this. Anyway, you think the protestors are going to say hurrah and go home, especially with the off campus organizers in their ears? They've already demanded a vote in the prez hiring.

I predict that Mizzou's response now will be to craft a set of superficial changes that the protestors can't argue with and will render them mute or crazy radical (if they continue in the face of such changes). They'd be stupid to attempt real change, if they intend it, in this environment.

You never give in to ultimatums - never. Not in business, not in lawsuits, not in life. To do so is to empower someone or some group which does not have the temperment, intellect or communication skills to resolve a dispute or problem in a thoughtful, even handed manner. This was a victory for mob rule bullying, achieved only when pressure was applied by a self promoting, over rated, football conference which with the exception of Vanderbilt is " morally and academically bankrupt."

It is terribly disappointing to me that the president, chancellor , and board did not have the courage to stand their ground and say " no, we do not resolve disputes by mob rule or threats of football players or football conferences. We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

So most of you can and will rip me but two things. Please reconsider this entire situation in two months and then after we have seen the silliness of additional demands and campus protests, violence, etc. go back and ask yourself "was this the best way to handle this ?" Second, if your ass was legally on the line and you were receiving ultimatums from the opposition, you would want me or guys like me to be your lawyer.

slotright20;842588847 said:

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You never give in to ultimatums - never. Not in business, not in lawsuits, not in life. To do so is to empower someone or some group which does not have the temperment, intellect or communication skills to resolve a dispute or problem in a thoughtful, even handed manner. This was a victory for mob rule bullying, achieved only when pressure was applied by a self promoting, over rated, football conference which with the exception of Vanderbilt is " morally and academically bankrupt."

It is terribly disappointing to me that the president, chancellor , and board did not have the courage to stand their ground and say " no, we do not resolve disputes by mob rule or threats of football players or football conferences. We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

So most of you can and will rip me but two things. Please reconsider this entire situation in two months and then after we have seen the silliness of additional demands and campus protests, violence, etc. go back and ask yourself "was this the best way to handle this ?" Second, if your ass was legally on the line and you were receiving ultimatums from the opposition, you would want me or guys like me to be your lawyer.

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Bring back slotleft!

slotright20;842588847 said:

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We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

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I agree working with the university's leadership would be the best solution. I'm thinking the situation could have been resolved this way. (I've only read a couple articles on this including a great New York Times article). But it seems there was a prolonged effort on the part of the students to influence change, with token results.
"Never give in" doesn't sound like you're willing to solve these issues collectively.
I would want guys like you on my team - on the side of the students. The football team had leverage and they "didn't give in."

If Cal's players boycotted, would anyone care?

slotright20;842588847 said:

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You never give in to ultimatums - never. Not in business, not in lawsuits, not in life. To do so is to empower someone or some group which does not have the temperment, intellect or communication skills to resolve a dispute or problem in a thoughtful, even handed manner. This was a victory for mob rule bullying, achieved only when pressure was applied by a self promoting, over rated, football conference which with the exception of Vanderbilt is " morally and academically bankrupt."

It is terribly disappointing to me that the president, chancellor , and board did not have the courage to stand their ground and say " no, we do not resolve disputes by mob rule or threats of football players or football conferences. We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

So most of you can and will rip me but two things. Please reconsider this entire situation in two months and then after we have seen the silliness of additional demands and campus protests, violence, etc. go back and ask yourself "was this the best way to handle this ?" Second, if your ass was legally on the line and you were receiving ultimatums from the opposition, you would want me or guys like me to be your lawyer.

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It wasn't a negotiation as the two leaders had lost the confidence of their constituents and were forced to resign with minimal opposition. The final straw was the introduction of money into the equation vis a vis the football boycott. This "bargaining chip" forced the issue

slotright20;842588847 said:

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You never give in to ultimatums - never. Not in business, not in lawsuits, not in life. To do so is to empower someone or some group which does not have the temperment, intellect or communication skills to resolve a dispute or problem in a thoughtful, even handed manner. This was a victory for mob rule bullying, achieved only when pressure was applied by a self promoting, over rated, football conference which with the exception of Vanderbilt is " morally and academically bankrupt."

It is terribly disappointing to me that the president, chancellor , and board did not have the courage to stand their ground and say " no, we do not resolve disputes by mob rule or threats of football players or football conferences. We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

So most of you can and will rip me but two things. Please reconsider this entire situation in two months and then after we have seen the silliness of additional demands and campus protests, violence, etc. go back and ask yourself "was this the best way to handle this ?" Second, if your ass was legally on the line and you were receiving ultimatums from the opposition, you would want me or guys like me to be your lawyer.

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"Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it?
...You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall."
Colonel Nathan R. Jessep

GB54;842587750 said:

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Let's let our anger and dissension over Cal football be replaced by anger and dissension over this story. Missouri football players are going to boycott games over a number of racial incidents on campus and the President's alleged failure to act. Very interesting story.


http://http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/09/us/missouri-football-players-boycott-in-protest-of-university-president.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-regionion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

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This is an example of arrogance and lousy management by the university prez. As Dick Vitale said the whole thing boils down to RESPECT. It's not his job to bend to every student whim, but show respect for all students and DO YOUR JOB!

I was with the protesters until they bullied and shoved the student reporters.

Reminded me of when I was a student reporter covering a protest and I was bullied and shoved.

slotright20;842588847 said:

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You never give in to ultimatums - never.

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Unless you're up against the SEC because that's really where the power/leverage was.

Fred Clerici;842588888 said:

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If Cal's players boycotted, would anyone care?

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Might be a good move by Sonny

GB54;842588523 said:

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This has been going on for months-there are a number of issues including racism, graduate student pay, graduate student health care that are a lot bigger than racial sensitivity training. The two fired leaders had lost the confidence of both students and faculty; the final straw being the football team. (You can **** with graduate students but not the SEC money). If this is the start of a broad movement of young people that begins addressing the inequities of our society and uses their power to bring change, I would be delighted. If it spilled over into our political system and resulted in a full scale insurrection against our leaders and both political parties resulting in a return of democracy and the destruction of our corrupt system, I would be in utter rapture

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See, here's where dreaming takes us. The same place that dreams of a Cal national championship with this fb team take us: The expectation that young people somehow have a capability that they don't have. Using their power to bring change? How? Insurrection against our leaders resulting in a return of democracy and destruction of our corrupt system? Why? How?

Democracy was tried by the French Revolution and it resulted in a nationwide bloodbath. Lesson learned - the tyranny of the majority inevitably results in tyranny over all - and it hasn't been tried since. We have a republic for a good reason.

If we concur that the fundamental character of our system is corruption (not to say there isn't corruption in it), then how will destroying it, at the hands of, you'll pardon the expression, ignorant students result in an improvement? Comprehensive change in any large system has always resulted in disaster through unforeseen consequences.

Change has been taking place in this area for 50 years, not all of it good (breakdown of family units, 50% unemployment among black young men, absolution of accountability for those not doing their part). And, we're now no better off than we were, if not worse off. People need to start thinking about a change back to the values of the '50's at least, with current thinking about opportunity and the PURSUIT of happiness folded in. Giving people stuff hasn't worked and further attempts to make it work just make things worse.

Rushinbear;842588967 said:

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See, here's where dreaming takes us. The same place that dreams of a Cal national championship with this fb team take us: The expectation that young people somehow have a capability that they don't have. Using their power to bring change? How? Insurrection against our leaders resulting in a return of democracy and destruction of our corrupt system? Why? How?

Democracy was tried by the French Revolution and it resulted in a nationwide bloodbath. Lesson learned - the tyranny of the majority inevitably results in tyranny over all - and it hasn't been tried since. We have a republic for a good reason.

If we concur that the fundamental character of our system is corruption (not to say there isn't corruption in it), then how will destroying it, at the hands of, you'll pardon the expression, ignorant students result in an improvement? Comprehensive change in any large system has always resulted in disaster through unforeseen consequences.

Change has been taking place in this area for 50 years, not all of it good (breakdown of family units, 50% unemployment among black young men, absolution of accountability for those not doing their part). And, we're now no better off than we were, if not worse off. People need to start thinking about a change back to the values of the '50's at least, with current thinking about opportunity and the PURSUIT of happiness folded in. Giving people stuff hasn't worked and further attempts to make it work just make things worse.

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Really? We should keep democracy out of the hands of "ignorant students" and rely on the munificence of our corporate overlords. This and turning back the clock to the 1950's will cure our ills?

Values of the 50s. LMFAO. That was a great time for all.

socaliganbear;842588998 said:

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Values of the 50s. LMFAO. That was a great time for all.

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Not everything is better today than it was in the 1950's. Let's not be so extreme in either direction. We need to find the right balance between social welfare and accountability, between not stigmatizing yet encouraging responsible behavior, etc...

oski003;842589009 said:

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Not everything is better today than it was in the 1950's. Let's not be so extreme in either direction. We need to find the right balance between social welfare and accountability, between not stigmatizing yet encouraging responsible behavior, etc...

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Well obviously.

1955...lets *NOT* go back, ever.

And yes, this is one of the more sedate photos.

slotright20;842588847 said:

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You never give in to ultimatums - never. Not in business, not in lawsuits, not in life. To do so is to empower someone or some group which does not have the temperment, intellect or communication skills to resolve a dispute or problem in a thoughtful, even handed manner. This was a victory for mob rule bullying, achieved only when pressure was applied by a self promoting, over rated, football conference which with the exception of Vanderbilt is " morally and academically bankrupt."

It is terribly disappointing to me that the president, chancellor , and board did not have the courage to stand their ground and say " no, we do not resolve disputes by mob rule or threats of football players or football conferences. We will meet and discuss and solve these issues but we are not giving into ultimatums."

So most of you can and will rip me but two things. Please reconsider this entire situation in two months and then after we have seen the silliness of additional demands and campus protests, violence, etc. go back and ask yourself "was this the best way to handle this ?" Second, if your ass was legally on the line and you were receiving ultimatums from the opposition, you would want me or guys like me to be your lawyer.

---

Agreed. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I just can't empathize with their perspective and objectives. People had time and desire to organize over a few isolated incidents of "n****r" and a **** swastika? And directed their anger at the President of all people? I've spent half of my life on either Cal or Stanford campus, so I've seen some "movements" come and go. This one seems to be coming from a place that actually scares me: nowhere. Add the Yale incident, and I am siding wholly on the side of both administrations. Maybe I'm just getting old, but these kids are cray and an embarrassment to themselves