Inheriting v Rebuilding a Program (or why a new Cal coach might not win immediately)

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mvargus
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On this board there seems to be a surplus of angst and anger over how the program isn't competing for the Rose bowl at this point in this season and that somehow every season should be at worst 9-3 with Cal always ranked. I hate to say, but this expectation is not close to realistic at the moment. The foundation for my reasoning is the foundation of the Cal football team. Right now Cal does not have a real "program" when you compare the team to others in the conference and nation.

What I am talking about is not that Cal doesn't field a team, but rather that the team doesn't have an identity that lingers in the minds of recruits and opposing fans. Think about teams like Ohio State, Notre Dame or even (bleh) USC. These teams have "prestige". Recruits know them because of the rich and often triumphant history of the teams going back decades.

Cal doesn't have that. And from what I can tell, they haven't had a coach that really worked at building the team and job into a "program" for some time. The two that came closest before now were Snyder who was forced out by Bockrath, but who was starting to develop an identity for the team. And Tedford in his early years, but after Longshore got hurt his freshman year Tedford seemed to lose sight of the idea of giving the team an identity as a team.

Building that identity will determine if Cal can finally move up in the conference. Right now however, there are 3 solid "programs" in the conference and 3 other teams with dynamic coaches driving them to success this season. The other coaches could perhaps build something, but it will be interesting to see if they manage.

Let's examine:

[U]Programs:[/U] USC, Oregon, Stanford
USC - Let's face it, they are the face of all football west of the Mississippi as far as New York and the SEC territory is concerned most of the time. Even when they were fighting sanctions they got national attention. This is one of the most prestigious programs in the nation even though they have twice fired a coach midseason in the last decade. There will be a huge fight to get the head coaching job there after the season. Coaches at USC don't have to push their players to try harder, its almost built into the aura around the program and the history of agent and star appearances.

Oregon - Strangely Oregon's progress to program status was very slow. They had Rich Brooks as a coach from 1977 to 1994, and those weren't great years until near the end when Brooks managed to get Oregon to 3 bowl games from 1989 to 1994. However, Brooks near the end started to build an identity. Then Bellotti took over. He had the advantage of taking over a team that had been to the Rose Bowl after the 1994 season and parlayed that into 12 bowl games over 14 seasons. It was during this time that Oregon became a program with an identity around a fast offense, an athletic QB and a usually fierce defense. It did take nearly 20 years to completely gel if you put 1989 as the start of the rise, but they are not considered a premier program. But note, it took YEARS to build during which Oregon had 2 head coaches (Rich Brooks 17 years, Mike Bellotti 14 years). [However, I should note that Bellotti only had 2 conference championships during his time as head coach (2000, 2001)

Stanford - They are the newest member of the trio that seems to dominate talk in the conference every year. And people seem to forget that they really only have 4 great seasons in the last 2 decades before 2015. However, the fact that from 2010-2013 they never had less than 11 wins puts them on the map. This program was definitely put together thanks to Harbaugh. It may be fun to mock him and to point out that he failed at the pro level. (I think his talents as a motivator don't really translate to the pro game). However, its clear he took over at Stanford and immediately started to give the team an identity. Watch any program about football in the Pac-12 and just about every sportscaster talks about Stanford as the "throwback" team that plays "physical football." Honestly, I think it goes back to Harbaugh's arrival. back then Oregon was flying at its highest and he could probably see that with Oregon and USC in the conference it would be almost impossible to out athlete the rest of the conference. Instead he went for brawn and brain rather than speed. He built a team that would win the LOS and wear teams down. For the most part, this has been wildly successful, and Shaw for all his blandness has improved on that success. Stanford is now known as a destination for those who want to play physical football and go to a great university.

[U]Dynamic Coaches[/U]: Utah, UCLA, WSU
Utah - Willingham might be the best coach in the conference and he definitely appears capable of recovering from losing both of his coordinators. However, he does have the advantage of a senior QB and perhaps the best RB in the conference. Arizona just beat them after Booker got injured. It is clear that he is doing very well.

UCLA - After 4 seasons Mora's record is about the same as Jim Harbaugh managed at Stanford. He's even managed a couple wins over USC which definitely has helped put UCLA in the minds of recruits. LA is no longer a one-team city. However, it will take a few more years of success to become a program.

WSU - Leach has his team in a bowl game and looking very good after they managed to defeat UCLA last week. Who would have expected that from one of the least prestigious programs. The only real question is if he can sustain the momentum.

[U][/U]Who knows programs: All the rest
UW - Peterson is definitely struggling this season, but its hard to say if the step up in competition from Boise State is the issue. Either way UW has definitely seen better years and it looks like they'll miss a bowl game in 2015

Colorado - Considering how poor the program was when McIntyre took over, he's doing fairly well. His team is unfortunately the least talented in the South Division and right now they can't compete every week. Its hard to say if they will catch up. They have improved every season, but so has the rest of the conference.

ASU & Arizona - Both teams brought in successful coaches from other conferences. Both teams have remained in the middle of the conference as Utah and UCLA rose and USC fought on through the sanctions. Neither team appears to have a solid identity. It will be interesting to see how that changes next season.

Oregon State - Riley left a very bare cupboard. Anderson has a lot to do. Ask me again in 2017, I don't expect them to turn around the problems in one season.
[U][/U]
And now Cal:


So we come to Cal. Right now Cal doesn't have a real team identity. We've talked mockingly about the "Bear Raid" offense, but then all noticed that the offense seemed to change when we came to the death ride section of the schedule. The team does appear to be more of a family/team than we had years ago, but that hasn't become something that translates completely to on the field play.

But this isn't where this began. If you really study Cal football and the history of the program, you can see that Andy Smith did put a program in place. One that lingered from the 1920's into the late 1940's and the tenure of Pappy Waldorf, although it fell off in the 1950's while Pappy was still coaching. Unfortunately after that you see year after year of futility and losing seasons and any semblance of a "program" vanishes. Cal also had a history of short coach tenures. Pappy lasted 10 seasons at Cal. No other coach would reach that total until Tedford. Most lasted 5 years or less.

This meant that a coach for Cal would have to create the identity. As I said I think Snyder tried and would have succeeded with more time. Tedford appeared to start, but then the effort vanishes.

And now we have a program with no real identity, being coaches during a period where the Pac-12 has a lot of good coaches and 3 already firmly established "programs". Its a bit of a challenge for any coach.

Can a coach succeed? I am sure the right one can.

Will it be overnight or even in one season? I am convinced that with the current restrictions regarding academic performance of recruits the answer here isn't just no, but a snowflake in hell has a better chance. Any coach is going to have to build from the ground up. Much like Harbaugh did at Stanford. (note, Harbaugh didn't get a bowl game until his 3rd season, although his first season wasn't the train wreck that Dykes had.)

What does this mean? Honestly, I'm not sure. I am sick of seeing negabears bash the program and the progress because they want instant victories when right now the conference is just too strong for a team to jump to the top overnight. Any flaws in a team will have to be addressed before you can rise up. WE can see that with the losses teams have had in the last few weeks as injuries built up. Cal lost too many DT to injury and Oregon's offense exploded. Stanford had speed issues on defense and Oregon destroyed the defense with big plays, pulling out a win despite almost never having the ball. Utah loses Booker to injury and Zona steals the game. Falk at WSU comes back on the field in the 4th quarter and leads his team against the depleted UCLA pass defense, pulling out a win. All wins partly due to flaws in the losing team being exposed.

I'd request that posters here be patient, but I know that patience is difficult. However, I will say that comparing the current situation with any past situation in the conference or any situation in another conference is unfair to the team. The best comparison would be with Colorado which changed coaches at the same time as Cal and is another Pac-12 conference team. Cal appears to be ahead of them on developing the program. It might not be where you want it, but is it a complete disaster?
Cal_79
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Good reasoned comments, mvargus, well done. I'm excited about the Bears working their way to the top and recognize this isn't a 'microwave' process. GO BEARS!
sycasey
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mvargus;842594407 said:

On this board there seems to be a surplus of angst and anger over how the program isn't competing for the Rose bowl at this point in this season and that somehow every season should be at worst 9-3 with Cal always ranked.


That's not what the angst is about. It's about the (IMO, justified) fear that we'll never reach that level with the current regime.

Defend the program's trajectory if you must, but let's call it like it is. No one was expecting a Rose Bowl this season, just something better than what we've seen.
sycasey
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mvargus;842594407 said:

This program was definitely put together thanks to Harbaugh. It may be fun to mock him and to point out that he failed at the pro level. (I think his talents as a motivator don't really translate to the pro game).


This is a side point, but here I have to say: "What?"

Harbaugh didn't succeed at the pro level? He came to a moribund franchise and immediately took them to three straight NFC Championships and one Super Bowl. That's failure? He was run out of town by an idiot owner because of personality, not based on performance.
KoreAmBear
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sycasey;842594436 said:

That's not what the angst is about. It's about the (IMO, justified) fear that we'll never reach that level with the current regime.

Defend the program's trajectory if you must, but let's call it like it is. No one was expecting a Rose Bowl this season, just something better than what we've seen.


I actually was expecting to at least compete for a Pac-12 North title (which would mean we would be 1 game from a RB). I thought with the experienced skilled offensive players coming back in the payoff third year in the system, and a decent D we could do it. Turns out that it is possible to have lower ranked recruits running a spread offense and competing for a Pac-12 title. Unfortunately it was Wazzu that showed us how it's done.
sycasey
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KoreAmBear;842594448 said:

I actually was expecting to at least compete for a Pac-12 North title (which would mean we would be 1 game from a RB). I thought with the experienced skilled offensive players coming back in the payoff third year in the system, and a decent D we could do it. Turns out that it is possible to have lower ranked recruits running a spread offense and competing for a Pac-12 title. Unfortunately it was Wazzu that showed us how it's done.


Compete for a title, sure. At least be in the mix. That's probably where the program SHOULD be right now with better coaching.

Though if I am being honest, I didn't expect us to seriously compete for the top of the division. But that's not because I thought the roster wasn't good enough, it's because I don't have much faith in Dykes ever making "the leap." I fully expected us to stagnate around 7 wins, so this season is roughly meeting my lowered expectations (caveat: if we beat Stanford I might revise that judgment).

The problem is if too many Cal fans keep adjusting their expectations lower like I did. That way lies years of Gilbertson and Holmoe.
BearlyCareAnymore
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mvargus;842594407 said:


What does this mean? Honestly, I'm not sure. I am sick of seeing negabears bash the program and the progress because they want instant victories when right now the conference is just too strong for a team to jump to the top overnight. Any flaws in a team will have to be addressed before you can rise up. WE can see that with the losses teams have had in the last few weeks as injuries built up. Cal lost too many DT to injury and Oregon's offense exploded. Stanford had speed issues on defense and Oregon destroyed the defense with big plays, pulling out a win despite almost never having the ball. Utah loses Booker to injury and Zona steals the game. Falk at WSU comes back on the field in the 4th quarter and leads his team against the depleted UCLA pass defense, pulling out a win. All wins partly due to flaws in the losing team being exposed.




You have a lot of good stuff here and I don't have time to address it all, but I wanted to comment on "the conference is just too strong". Stanford is 7-1 in conference. Out of conference, they lost to Northwestern who is a good team but who is not seriously challenging to win their division. WSU is in second place at 5-2. They lost to Portland State and they barely beat Rutgers who is 1-6 in their conference. The Pac-12 North is not "just too strong" unless you are basically saying that playing in a Power 5 conference is just too tough.
Golden One
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You're ignoring the fact that the Pac-12 is weaker this season than it has been in many years. You're also ignoring the fact that Cal has the most experienced team in the Pac-12, and arguably the most experienced team in the FBS, as well as one of the top quarterbacks in the country. In spite of those facts, we are still not competitive with Utah, UCLA, USC, or Stanfurd. It's also frustrating that Wazzu, with significantly less talent than Cal, is doing very well this season. Given all of this, it's not difficult to see why many are skeptical of the Dykes regime.
socaliganbear
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Let's drop the Rose Bowl argument, NO ONE is saying that. That's not even a part of the conversation. What has become clear to me is that whomever the coach is, if they can't win a weekender, the fan base will not be happy. You MUST have victories over our true rivals. You simply must. If you can't do that, you're not the right coach. These are the victories that matter most. This is the state most of us live in. These are our friends and our enemies. They are our family members and colleagues. This is the improvement we want to see. Especially when you're the experienced team and they're all rebuilding.

That's why everyone is so disillusioned with Dykes.

Patience? Cal has been beyond patient with all of its HCs, maybe it's time to try something different?
beeasyed
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socaliganbear;842594466 said:

Let's drop the Rose Bowl argument, NO ONE is saying that. That's not even a part of the conversation. What has become clear to me is that whomever the coach is, if they can't win a weekender, the fan base will not be happy. You MUST have victories over our true rivals. You simply must. If you can't do that, you're not the right coach. These are the victories that matter most. This is the state most of us live in. These are our friends and our enemies. They are our family members and colleagues. This is the improvement we want to see. Especially when you're the experienced team and they're all rebuilding.

That's why everyone is so disillusioned with Dykes.

Patience? Cal has been beyond patient with all of its HCs, maybe it's time to try something different?


damn. that hurt to read..
Golden One
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socaliganbear;842594466 said:

Let's drop the Rose Bowl argument, NO ONE is saying that. That's not even a part of the conversation. What has become clear to me is that whomever the coach is, if they can't win a weekender, the fan base will not be happy. You MUST have victories over our true rivals. You simply must. If you can't do that, you're not the right coach. These are the victories that matter most. This is the state most of us live in. These are our friends and our enemies. They are our family members and colleagues. This is the improvement we want to see. Especially when you're the experienced team and they're all rebuilding.

That's why everyone is so disillusioned with Dykes.

Patience? Cal has been beyond patient with all of its HCs, maybe it's time to try something different?


Well said!
UrsaMajor
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You're right about the P12 being weaker and Cal being the most experienced team. And, I am also disappointed and skeptical. One minor correction, however: we were certainly "competitive" with Utah (potentially one play from a victory) and USC (a failed 3rd down stop from a chance to pull it out). Definitely not competitive w/ UCLA. Also, if one lauds WSU, you have to give credit to Cal for beating them.
sycasey
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Golden One;842594464 said:

It's also frustrating that Wazzu, with significantly less talent than Cal, is doing very well this season. Given all of this, it's not difficult to see why many are skeptical of the Dykes regime.


Not to mention, they clearly got BETTER as the season went along. Something Dykes' teams at Cal have not done.
CaliforniaEternal
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You argue to maintain the status quo, which is fine if the program has some kind of vision or identity as you discuss. No one expected overnight success. Yet you're not advocating very strongly that Dykes is capable if building a "program." So what's it gonna be?

Then you argue that with the status quo, success is impossible because of the academic restrictions. Why even bother encouraging people to maintain patience in this case? It sounds more like you're saying the program can't compete effectively so everyone may as well stop paying attention and accept the "3-9 with good academics" argument.
sycasey
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CaliforniaEternal;842594489 said:

You argue to maintain the status quo, which is fine if the program has some kind of vision or identity as you discuss. No one expected overnight success. Yet you're not advocating very strongly that Dykes is capable if building a "program." So what's it gonna be?

Then you argue that with the status quo, success is impossible because of the academic restrictions. Why even bother encouraging people to maintain patience in this case? It sounds more like you're saying the program can't compete effectively so everyone may as well stop paying attention and accept the "3-9 with good academics" argument.


If anything, what I read from this is that in order to build a "program" you should let go of a coach at his high point and then hire a better (or at least equal) one to take that momentum and run with it.

I concur, let's get rid of Dykes after this season and bring in someone better.
NYCGOBEARS
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Rebuilding a program is not easy. That's why I've been relatively patient with Sonny. I'm less optimistic about his leadership than I once was but I'm waiting until the end of the season to reach a conclusion.
BearlyCareAnymore
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socaliganbear;842594466 said:

Let's drop the Rose Bowl argument, NO ONE is saying that. That's not even a part of the conversation. What has become clear to me is that whomever the coach is, if they can't win a weekender, the fan base will not be happy. You MUST have victories over our true rivals. You simply must. If you can't do that, you're not the right coach. These are the victories that matter most. This is the state most of us live in. These are our friends and our enemies. They are our family members and colleagues. This is the improvement we want to see. Especially when you're the experienced team and they're all rebuilding.

That's why everyone is so disillusioned with Dykes.

Patience? Cal has been beyond patient with all of its HCs, maybe it's time to try something different?


People throw out the "fans insist on a Rosebowl" comment as a way of painting the other side as unreasonable. Same thing was said when people were unhappy about winning only 1 in 2013, when 3-4 wins would have placated almost everybody.
BearlyCareAnymore
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UrsaMajor;842594469 said:

You're right about the P12 being weaker and Cal being the most experienced team. And, I am also disappointed and skeptical. One minor correction, however: we were certainly "competitive" with Utah (potentially one play from a victory) and USC (a failed 3rd down stop from a chance to pull it out). Definitely not competitive w/ UCLA. Also, if one lauds WSU, you have to give credit to Cal for beating them.


I think the thing is with the USC game is there is being in it, there is almost being in it, and there is not close. UCLA was not close. Utah, we were in it. USC. Not really in it. Competitive? Okay, somewhat. I'd say we were close to being in it. After being down 17 we pulled within 6 late. Then we never touched the ball. Yes, we were one play away from touching the ball. But we didn't make the play. I'd say we were one play away from being "in it". In other words, we had a chance to have a chance. We didn't actually have a chance.

I think if UCLA and Oregon had matched USC and Utah, a lot of people would be more accepting. If USC was the worst loss no one would have a problem. But it is the third worst.
Tedhead94
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Pretty much the same for me.

Though, to be specific, I am holding my tongue until after the Big Game. After that, all bets are off.
BerkeleyBear
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mvargus;842594407 said:


I'd request that posters here be patient, but I know that patience is difficult.

How patient do you reasonably expect Cal fans to be?

I think that Cal fans, in general, have been very patient, and, in fact, possibly too patient. Many have been patient for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty or more years. And some have sadly already run out of time.
LethalFang
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sycasey;842594500 said:

If anything, what I read from this is that in order to build a "program" you should let go of a coach at his high point and then hire a better (or at least equal) one to take that momentum and run with it.

I concur, let's get rid of Dykes after this season and bring in someone better.


Couldn't agree more.
The program had some wonderful talent in 2009, and it was pretty clear that Tedford lost it. We could've hired an upgrade to take us to the next level.
On the other hand, Cal and our culture of inaction just HAD TO wait for Tedford to complete a 360-degree turnaround before starting from zero again.
Golden One
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UrsaMajor;842594469 said:

You're right about the P12 being weaker and Cal being the most experienced team. And, I am also disappointed and skeptical. One minor correction, however: we were certainly "competitive" with Utah (potentially one play from a victory) and USC (a failed 3rd down stop from a chance to pull it out). Definitely not competitive w/ UCLA. Also, if one lauds WSU, you have to give credit to Cal for beating them.


I was not just referring to being competitive one-on-one, but in the conference as a whole. True, we were competitive in our game against Utah; in the USC game, the score was close, but the game was not really that close. We were blown out by UCLA and Oregon. But looking at the conference in a broader sense, In conference play Stanford is 7-1, Oregon, Utah, and USC are 5-2, and UCLA is 4-3. Cal is 3-4. On the basis of conference records, I would say we are not competitive with those 5 teams.
sycasey
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LethalFang;842594527 said:

Couldn't agree more.
The program had some wonderful talent in 2009, and it was pretty clear that Tedford lost it. We could've hired an upgrade to take us to the next level.
On the other hand, Cal and our culture of inaction just HAD TO wait for Tedford to complete a 360-degree turnaround before starting from zero again.


And with Tedford you could point to some truly outstanding seasons in the not-too-distant past and say, "Well, may be he could do that again." At least there was evidence to support a possible turnaround.

I don't see much with Dykes. All he has before now is one middling season and one season that is about the worst possible. Why would anyone expect a turnaround? Other than in a nebulous "anything is possible" sense? What's the argument here?
martinibear
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Building a consistently great football program is not an easy thing and that is why only a few teams over history have established "legacies". While it would be nearly impossible for Cal to establish a rich football history like $C has, it would be nice to see if for at least a little while......like 3-5 years.........Cal could catch lightning in a bottle and have a good run to satisfy old and new Bears for awhile. Tedford almost did it for us. The only way I see that happening is if Cal strikes gold with a dynamic coach like the Furds did with Harbaugh. As for how Cal goes about doing that considering the factors that you have presented is the dilemma. I try to stay optimistic but I don't think SD is that man. He has certainly helped stabilize the program but we need great coaches from top down. Not only do we need a great leader but we need great teachers at each position. The only great assistant coaches I can recall are Coaches Gould and M.
mvargus
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martinibear;842594546 said:

Building a consistently great football program is not an easy thing and that is why only a few teams over history have established "legacies". While it would be nearly impossible for Cal to establish a rich football history like $C has, it would be nice to see if for at least a little while......like 3-5 years.........Cal could catch lightning in a bottle and have a good run to satisfy old and new Bears for awhile. Tedford almost did it for us. The only way I see that happening is if Cal strikes gold with a dynamic coach like the Furds did with Harbaugh. As for how Cal goes about doing that considering the factors that you have presented is the dilemma. I try to stay optimistic but I don't think SD is that man. He has certainly helped stabilize the program but we need great coaches from top down. Not only do we need a great leader but we need great teachers at each position. The only great assistant coaches I can recall are Coaches Gould and M.


I am not convinced that Dykes can get us over the hump. However, I think that too many Negabears have already given up on him and are not looking at the bog picture. Oregon is the best example to the way I think Cal has to work. They kept Rich Brooks for 17 years, even when in 1980 there was a huge scandal with the football program. The record of the team wasn't great, but Brooks was building something and would get a conference championship before he left for the pro ranks in 1995. He also left a great foundation that Bellotti could build on and Bellotti left an even better foundation for Chip Kelly. Right now I believe that is what the team needs to do.

I do think Dykes has the foundation building going in the right direction. The team reportedly has a much better focus on academics than it had before and stories say that this team is much more of a family than in the past. The new traditions like staying to salute the fans and band also contribute to establishing a personality for the whole program that can become something to be built on in the future, either for Dykes or his replacement. I think that the only way we'll see any consistent success is do something like that. Both Tedford and Snyder offered hints of that during their time. Snyder obviously got forced out before he was able to establish any traditions and Tedford seemed to give up on them as the program declined under his watch.

Either way, we'll know more in another season or two about if Dykes can fix the problems everyone complains about.
mvargus
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LethalFang;842594527 said:

Couldn't agree more.
The program had some wonderful talent in 2009, and it was pretty clear that Tedford lost it. We could've hired an upgrade to take us to the next level.
On the other hand, Cal and our culture of inaction just HAD TO wait for Tedford to complete a 360-degree turnaround before starting from zero again.


I was one of the louder voices to get rid of Tedford early and I remember many of the current negabears fiercely defending him even while the wheels came off the program. It seems that we have posters who get far too emotionally attached to one side of an argument when it comes to who should be the coach.
Jeff82
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OaktownBear;842594513 said:

I think the thing is with the USC game is there is being in it, there is almost being in it, and there is not close. UCLA was not close. Utah, we were in it. USC. Not really in it. Competitive? Okay, somewhat. I'd say we were close to being in it. After being down 17 we pulled within 6 late. Then we never touched the ball. Yes, we were one play away from touching the ball. But we didn't make the play. I'd say we were one play away from being "in it". In other words, we had a chance to have a chance. We didn't actually have a chance.

I think if UCLA and Oregon had matched USC and Utah, a lot of people would be more accepting. If USC was the worst loss no one would have a problem. But it is the third worst.


I guess what bugs me is that every time under Dykes where we need to make a play to have a chance to win a close game, we don't make it. Time after time after time. Do you really see us having a late interception to turn back a Furd drive and win the game? I don't. That's why I've lost faith in Dykes. It just seems to me he doesn't inspire these players to rise to the occasion. So I'm ready to roll the dice, understanding that things could actually get worse. I'm just not sure that being patient is going to result in improvement, an we'll be having this same conversation a year from now.
mvargus
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BerkeleyBear;842594525 said:

How patient do you reasonably expect Cal fans to be?

I think that Cal fans, in general, have been very patient, and, in fact, possibly too patient. Many have been patient for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty or more years. And some have sadly already run out of time.


Wow, a false argument.

You aren't arguing apples to apples here. Heck its not apples to pomegranate, its apples to turds.

There are 2 different things to be patient about. You talk about fans being patient for twenty to fifty (or more) years. That is program building types of patience which means you need to find a coach you believe can build a program and then give him 5-10 years to get it fully in place. Rome wasn't built in a day and its not always possible to go from 1-10 to 10-1. Even the 49ers with their miracle turn-around under Bill Walsh took 3 years to go from 2-14 to 13-3 and their first season under Walsh was 2-14 after a 2-14 season. When they already were looking to rebuild the program.

But most of the impatience I'm seeing and which I tried to talk about is the "we need to have 12-0 this season" type of posts. Yes, I know that it isn't quite that overblown, but the people demanding that Dykes somehow get a win against Utah, USC, UCLA, or Oregon this season and who then demand that he be fired despite the fact that the team has improved from year to year since he took over, are now showing the 20+ year patience you brag about. They are acting like they need immediate gratification.

I've said I don't know if Dykes can get us to a Rose Bowl. Honestly, I think the idea of the "Bear Raid" isn't bad, but that the tweaks necessary to make it successful at this level haven't been made yet and I don't know if Dykes and his coaches will figure out what they need to do to prevent more athletic teams from shutting it down. However, I haven't been given any proof that any other coach could have fixed the other problems with the program any faster and maintain any better results over the last 3 years. Mcintyre at Colorado is behind Cal with his rebuild. And we now have Anderson at Oregon State having to do a similar rebuild. Perhaps Anderson will prove to do better than Dykes. If he doesn't will any negabear admit that they were wrong and Dykes did as well as anyone could have? He's done better than Mcintyre which should count for something.
Jeff82
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mvargus;842594609 said:

I am not convinced that Dykes can get us over the hump. However, I think that too many Negabears have already given up on him and are not looking at the bog picture. Oregon is the best example to the way I think Cal has to work. They kept Rich Brooks for 17 years, even when in 1980 there was a huge scandal with the football program. The record of the team wasn't great, but Brooks was building something and would get a conference championship before he left for the pro ranks in 1995. He also left a great foundation that Bellotti could build on and Bellotti left an even better foundation for Chip Kelly. Right now I believe that is what the team needs to do.

I do think Dykes has the foundation building going in the right direction. The team reportedly has a much better focus on academics than it had before and stories say that this team is much more of a family than in the past. The new traditions like staying to salute the fans and band also contribute to establishing a personality for the whole program that can become something to be built on in the future, either for Dykes or his replacement. I think that the only way we'll see any consistent success is do something like that. Both Tedford and Snyder offered hints of that during their time. Snyder obviously got forced out before he was able to establish any traditions and Tedford seemed to give up on them as the program declined under his watch.

Either way, we'll know more in another season or two about if Dykes can fix the problems everyone complains about.


This argument actually speaks more to not firing Jeff Tedford, and letting him work through his own personal problems, and the problems those personal problems created in the football program. I'm guessing that's what Oregon did with Brooks. Unfortunately, it's all 20-20 hindsight, as at the time everyone thought the new facilities would allow us to hire a top flight coach. When the choices basically came down to Sonny Dykes or Mike McIntyre, that obviously was revealed to be wrong. As was indicated in the lamented Tedford thread, there are at least some of us who, based on what has happened since, would have kept Tedford on, rather than pushing him out.
Jeff82
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I'm not demanding 12-0. I would be happy with 8-4. That would have meant beating one of Utah, U$C, UCLA, Oregon or Stanford. If we had beaten one of them, including if we beat Stanford Saturday, that would be progress, along with staying in the game against Utah. I would even accept the two blowouts against UCLA and Oregon. The next step is to beat one of the teams that we aspire to being our peers. Because of the UCLA and Oregon games, and my expectation of a blowout on Saturday, I just don't think this coach can do it.
BearlyCareAnymore
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mvargus;842594609 said:

I am not convinced that Dykes can get us over the hump. However, I think that too many Negabears have already given up on him and are not looking at the bog picture. Oregon is the best example to the way I think Cal has to work. They kept Rich Brooks for 17 years, even when in 1980 there was a huge scandal with the football program. The record of the team wasn't great, but Brooks was building something and would get a conference championship before he left for the pro ranks in 1995. He also left a great foundation that Bellotti could build on and Bellotti left an even better foundation for Chip Kelly. Right now I believe that is what the team needs to do.
.

And finally we get to the old Holmoe apologist chestnut, Rich Brooks.

Rich Brooks coached at Oregon for 18 years. He finished in the bottom half of the conference 12 times. His record was 91-109-4. Conference record was 56-79-2. His last four years he finished last, tied for 6th, tied for 8th and then in year 18, he won the conference and proceeded to bail to the NFL. He then went 13-19 for the Rams. Went on to coach at Kentucky where his record was 39-47, 16-39 in conference.

If you think finding the next Rich Brooks is the strategy Cal should use, sorry, we have no common ground
Golden One
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Jeff82;842594634 said:

Because of the UCLA and Oregon games, and my expectation of a blowout on Saturday, I just don't think this coach can do it.


Me neither.
sycasey
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Jeff82;842594628 said:

This argument actually speaks more to not firing Jeff Tedford, and letting him work through his own personal problems, and the problems those personal problems created in the football program. I'm guessing that's what Oregon did with Brooks.


It does, and honestly I find mvargus' argument here inconsistent with his previous argument for a quick hook with Tedford.
heartofthebear
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You don't "build a program" by making the same mistake over and over again.
Over a 3 yr. span, I gave Dykes and the TFS fair chances to improve and/or change things that weren't working.
He was able to do that on defense after all.
But it is painfully clear to me that the game is won in the trenches and it shouldn't take 3 years for a coach "building a program" to figure that out.

Where is the evidence that the program is being built to win in the trenches?
Tate at DL coach, a guy who hasn't recruited a single guy capable of sacking the QB?
The vertical blocking scheme, a scheme that has made a record breaking QB into a liability when facing a solid defense?

Where's the learning curve?
Stubbornly adhering to the same systems despite the evidence is the same thing that led me to give up on Tedford in year 3 of his decline. I don't see why I should have a different standard for Dykes.
BearlyCareAnymore
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Jeff82;842594628 said:

This argument actually speaks more to not firing Jeff Tedford, and letting him work through his own personal problems, and the problems those personal problems created in the football program. I'm guessing that's what Oregon did with Brooks. Unfortunately, it's all 20-20 hindsight, as at the time everyone thought the new facilities would allow us to hire a top flight coach. When the choices basically came down to Sonny Dykes or Mike McIntyre, that obviously was revealed to be wrong. As was indicated in the lamented Tedford thread, there are at least some of us who, based on what has happened since, would have kept Tedford on, rather than pushing him out.


No mv has it right. It is much more an argument for Holmoe and Dykes. Rich Brooks sucked for 17 years. Then had one good year which was basically a law of averages thing, moved on, then sucked for the rest of his career. Check out his record on wiki to see what is being advocated. Brooks wishes he could have Tedford's record.

Of course a better argument (though still bad) could be made for keeping Tedford, but that isn't the argument here. The argument is even if your coach sucks, the continuity of keeping him 18 years may get you a Rose Bowl.
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