http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Bay-Area-athlete-15-charged-with-felony-over-6700824.php

When I was growing up this would have been worked out in the parking lot. Water polo players were tough guy cheap shot artists in the pool but I never knew one who could fight worth a sh*t.

bearister;842617795 said:

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When I was growing up this would have been worked out in the parking lot. Water polo players were tough guy cheap shot artists in the pool but I never knew one who could fight worth a sh*t.

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No one can work anything out in the parking lot anymore. It's really a shame. Speaking of which, did I ever tell you about the "disagreement" between some Raider fans and my dad when I was like 12 after a game at Jack Murphy Stadium?

Must be a shortage of felonies in Contra Costa County

Well, my alma mater (Acalanes) was always tougher than Campolindo or Miramonte - that's where the rich weaklings lived.

CAL6371;842618003 said:

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Well, my alma mater (Acalanes) was always tougher than Campolindo or Miramonte - that's where the rich weaklings lived.

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..and the boys in Oakland thought everyone that lived on the other side of the tunnel was a major pussie.

Lol...but not in football!

My take: Peterson, the CC DA, is in for a long one if it isn't dismissed/plead very soon. The boy is being represented by O'Malley, who is possibly a former CC judge(I can't recall but I think I've heard that), is married to a CC judge, and I know him through his various municipal dealings in the east bay/Richmond area. I wouldn't take him on in his backyard.

On a serious note....
The parents out there should be paying as much attention to their kid outside of athletics as in....
One of my friends is an addiction doctor in CCCo.
His patients are primarily kids between 12 and 20.........heroine and meth.
He says both of those drugs are easily acquired at any middle or high school in Orinda, Moraga, Lafayette. Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill, Concord, Alamo, Danville and San Ramon.
"the kids get the stuff, then sit in their Range Rover or BMW and shoot up or smoke."

bearister;842618056 said:

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..and the boys in Oakland thought everyone that lived on the other side of the tunnel was a major pussie.

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And they were/are. I lived on BOTH sides and can attest.
Like, what a joke CAL6371 tries to say Acalanes is really any difference from MHS and CHS. There's a reason why they call it LAMORINDA. Come on, Yes, I'm calling BS.

MilleniaBear;842618063 said:

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Lol...but not in football!

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Football requires organization. It's a team sport. So, yes, the Lamorindans can beat the Oakland side often enough!
However, if you put the two groups in the parking lot, I know that the Lamorindans would turn running faster than you can say Jimminy Cricket. And that would be the wise move!

Bears2thDoc;842618076 said:

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On a serious note....
The parents out there should be paying as much attention to their kid outside of athletics as in....
One of my friends is an addiction doctor in CCCo.
His patients are primarily kids between 12 and 20.........heroine and meth.
He says both of those drugs are easily acquired at any middle or high school in Orinda, Moraga, Lafayette. Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill, Concord, Alamo, Danville and San Ramon.
"the kids get the stuff, then sit in their Range Rover or BMW and shoot up or smoke."

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Could it be that there are plenty of kids on the western side of the hill that do the same thing, just not in high end vehicles? And don't have the parental $ or attention to put them into programs?
Sorry, but your post has the potential to be MERELY stereotypical.
Not saying it's not a problem. IT IS. Just trying to put it into context. I've heard it my whole life, and I can tell you the issue was WORSE at Montera than at MHS! Had I continued to Skyline, well, I'm glad I didn't.
No, I did not do drugs. At either place.

A lotta "felonies" occur every Spring up at Witter Field I suppose...

concordtom;842618117 said:

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Could it be that there are plenty of kids on the western side of the hill that do the same thing, just not in high end vehicles? And don't have the parental $ or attention to put them into programs?
Sorry, but your post has the potential to be MERELY stereotypical.
Not saying it's not a problem. IT IS. Just trying to put it into context. I've heard it my whole life, and I can tell you the issue was WORSE at Montera than at MHS! Had I continued to Skyline, well, I'm glad I didn't.
No, I did not do drugs. At either place.

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I'm curious....
"No, I did not do drugs. At either place."
So how do you know one place was worse than the other?
Also, I don't recall singling out any one school.
I do recall using the word "any", which includes the private one's.
This is what I do know....
My friend only accepts private pay patients, no insurance.
He does this for one reason......
Using insurance causes one to be "marked" for the rest of their life as a drug user/abuser.....they already screwed up and sought treatment, why screw them for life by having it in their "permanent" file for future employers, insurers to see.
He tends to get his patients free from the addiction, not always.
It's foolish to think that one area is any more free of this than another.
It starts in the burbs with prescription drugs (oxy, vicodin, valium, etc.).
One typical narcotic prescription of 20 tablets is worth almost $1000 on the school yard.
Oxy and vicodin are HIGHLY addictive.
Once a kid gets hooked on those, they can't afford to keep up that habit, so they move to the cheaper heroine and meth.
Keep your head in the sand if you want, but the problem is still there.

Back when dinosaurs ruled the earth, I had a rhetoric class where I decided to speak on whether actions during a game can or should be subject to criminal prosecution, and if so, where lines might be drawn. I was surprised how many of my fellow students felt that violence during a game should be left to enforcement within the sport. It is certainly very difficult to draw the line on these questions. I know hockey players have been criminally charged from time to time (see below).

I presume we would likely agree that there is some line that can be crossed that could make on field (or pool) violence subject to criminal prosecution. For instance, a player using a gun to shoot someone during a football game. I am curious where you would draw the line. It's tough.

Here is a list of prosecutions for hockey violence over the years from this website: http://canadianstudiesubc.weebly.com/hockey-incidents-resulting-in-criminal-charges.html

Quote:

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1905 - Allan Loney is charged with manslaughter in the on-ice clubbing death of Alcide Laurin. Loney claimed self-defence, and was found not guilty.[5]
1907 - Ottawa Senators players Harry Smith, Alf Smith and Charles Spittal were charged with assault after beating Montreal Wanderers players, Hod Stuart, Ernie "Moose" Johnson and Cecil Blatchford with their sticks.
1907 - Ottawa Victorias player Charles Masson is charged with manslaughter after Cornwall player Owen McCourt dies of a head wound sustained in a brawl. Masson is found not guilty on the grounds that there was no way to know which blow had killed McCourt.[6]
1922 - Sprague Cleghorn injured three Ottawa Senators players in a brawl, leading Ottawa police to offer to arrest him.
1969 - In a pre-season game held in Ottawa, Ted Green of the Boston Bruins and Wayne Maki of the St.Louis Blues engaged in a violent, stick-swinging brawl. A fractured skull and brain damage caused Green to miss the entire 19691970 NHL season.[7] The NHL suspended Maki for 30 days and Green for 13 games. Both men were acquitted in court.
1975 - Dan Maloney of the Detroit Red Wings was charged with assault causing bodily harm after he attacked Brian Glennie of the Toronto Maple Leafs from behind. In exchange for a no-contest plea, Maloney did community service work and was banned from playing in Toronto for two seasons.
1975 - Police charged Bruins player Dave Forbes with aggravated assault after a fight with Henry Boucha of the Minnesota North Stars. After a nine-day trial ended with a hung jury, charges against Forbes were dropped. Boucha suffered blurred vision from the incident and never fully recovered.
1976 - Philadelphia Flyers players Joe Watson, Mel Bridgman, Don Saleski and Bob "Hound" Kelly were charged with assault after using their hockey sticks as weapons in a violent playoff game between the Flyers and the Toronto Maple Leafs in which fans had been taunting the Flyers players and spitting at them. Bridgman was acquitted, but the other three Flyers were found guilty of simple assault.
1976 - Calgary Cowboys forward Rick Jodzio plead guilty to a charge of assault following a cross-check to the head of Quebec Nordiques player Marc Tardif during the World Hockey Association playoffs. The hit led to a 20-minute bench clearing brawl.[8]
1977 - Dave "Tiger" Williams of the Toronto Maple Leafs hit Pittsburgh Penguin Dennis Owchar with his stick. He was charged with assault, but acquitted.
1982 - Jimmy Mann of the Winnipeg Jets left the bench and sucker-punched Pittsburgh Penguin Paul Gardner, breaking Gardner's jaw in two places. Mann was fined $500 and given a suspended sentence in Winnipeg.
1988 - Dino Ciccarelli hit Leafs defenceman Luke Richardson with his stick. Charged and convicted of assault, he was sentenced to one day in jail and fined $1,000.
1998 - Jesse Boulerice of the Plymouth Whalers was suspended for the rest of the playoffs after violently swinging his stick at Guelph Storm forward Andrew Long. Boulerice was charged with assault as a result of the incident.
2000 - Marty McSorley of the Boston Bruins hit Vancouver Canuck Donald Brashear in the head with his stick in the waning moments of the game, after losing a fight to Brashear earlier in the game. McSorley was convicted of assault with a weapon and given an 18-month conditional discharge.
2004 - In the Todd Bertuzzi - Steve Moore incident, Bertuzzi of the Vancouver Canucks sucker-punched Steve Moore of the Colorado Avalanche in the back of the head, knocking Moore unconscious. The pair then fell to the ice with Bertuzzi's weight crushing Moore face-first into the ice, followed by several players from both teams further piling onto the mle. Moore sustained three fractured vertebrae, a grade three concussion, vertebral ligament damage, stretching of the brachial plexus nerves, and facial lacerations. Bertuzzi was charged by police, and given a conditional discharge after pleading guilty to assault causing bodily harm. His suspension resulted in a loss of $500,000 in pay and the Canucks were fined $250,000. Bertuzzi was re-instated in 2005; Moore has not played since and made several unsuccessful attempts at civil litigation.

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Oh geez, hockey. Say what you want about the Canucks but they do love their violent hockey and the sport is designed to have fights.

The reasonable approach to the water polo kid: yes you have to watch that stuff and stop it...but a felony in a sport that requires parental consent from everyone? My guess the kid will get a misdemeanor and probation.

re: kids and drugs...disposable income makes it easier but the less affluent kids do drugs too but the $$$ aspect requires a "lifestyle" change, like doing crimes or cheaper drugs.

Bears2thDoc;842618150 said:

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I'm curious....
"No, I did not do drugs. At either place."
So how do you know one place was worse than the other?
Also, I don't recall singling out any one school.
I do recall using the word "any", which includes the private one's.
This is what I do know....
My friend only accepts private pay patients, no insurance.
He does this for one reason......
Using insurance causes one to be "marked" for the rest of their life as a drug user/abuser.....they already screwed up and sought treatment, why screw them for life by having it in their "permanent" file for future employers, insurers to see.
He tends to get his patients free from the addiction, not always.
It's foolish to think that one area is any more free of this than another.
It starts in the burbs with prescription drugs (oxy, vicodin, valium, etc.).
One typical narcotic prescription of 20 tablets is worth almost $1000 on the school yard.
Oxy and vicodin are HIGHLY addictive.
Once a kid gets hooked on those, they can't afford to keep up that habit, so they move to the cheaper heroine and meth.
Keep your head in the sand if you want, but the problem is still there.

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I don't think his head is in the sand, though you clearly would like to view it that way. He acknowledged that this issue is a problem, did in capital letters, in fact.

The point seemed to be that you were taking shots at the problems experienced in a particular geographic region, with your gratuitous reference to high end vehicles thrown in for good measure.

Drug use is a problem in Lamorinda. My wife and I had a conversation just last night with our sophomore daughter (Campolindo HS) about making good decisions in what she chooses to do and who she chooses to hang out with. The thing is the problem is not unique to Lamorinda. It is a societal problem and prevalent to some degree in most high schools.

Your tone while lecturing to parents in our community about the need to watch what our children are doing in areas other than sports, again while needlessly adding reference to car make and models, indicates you have an agenda. Your refusal to recognize that Tom acknowledged the problem in a subsequent post (but made nearly an hour before your later response) confirms this.

My wife and I, and the vast majority of our friends, are keenly aware of the fact that we need to stay on top of this and other important societal issues. You can climb down from your high horse now.

My son plays water polo so I received the email. While I agree with the general premise that criminal prosecution should not be used except in exceptional cases, the way the email was worded caused me to pause and think that there must be more to this than the authors were letting on. Had they just given me the facts I would have much more respect and empathy for their cause. However, now I would not support simply them because I can't trust them.

I also received another email from the CEO of USA Water Polo denouncing the prior email, stating that it wasn't authorized by USA Water Polo and that the sender had no business sending the email in his official capacity as a USA Water Polo employee.

I remember this topic being discussed in the 1970's. It reared it's head with regard to this incident:

In a regular-season game in 1976 vs. the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Raiders' arch-rival, Atkinson hit an unsuspecting Lynn Swann in the back of the head with a forearm smash, even though the ball had not been thrown to Swann. The hit rendered Swann unconscious with a concussion.[1] Atkinson had also hit Swann in a similar manner in the previous season's AFC Championship game, which also gave Swann a concussion.[1] After the second incident, Steeler's coach Chuck Noll referred to Atkinson as part of the "criminal element" in football. Atkinson subsequently filed a $2 million defamation lawsuit against Noll and the Steelers, which Atkinson lost.[1]Wikipedia



There was also an excellent made for TV movie called The Deadliest Season about a hockey enforcer who kills a player during a game:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0075918/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_77

norcal_bear;842617782 said:

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http://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/Bay-Area-athlete-15-charged-with-felony-over-6700824.php

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Over reaction by the DA. OK there may have been some dirty play by the party who did the injury. But IMO Water Polo is a dangerous sport and it is a well known fact that some athletes involved in HS sports play dirty. someone signing up to play assumes that risk under these circumstances.

Trying to determine when "aggressive play" morphs into "dirty play" morphs into "legally actionable conduct" is extremely difficult for some outsider to determine. It is a known fact that in Baseball there are situations where the pitcher throws a "bean ball" as retribution for some egregious act by the batter or by the opposing pitcher. In FB sometimes linemen get "payback" as the "payor" or the "payee". Hockey has an overabundance of examples. Why pick on this kid.

Things would be different if the offender went out of the field of play to attack some fan in the stands or if the offender used some weapon (for example, a chair). But a kid who breaks some other kid's nose in water polo should be penalized by the referee and not prosecuted by the polic

bearister;842617795 said:

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When I was growing up this would have been worked out in the parking lot. Water polo players were tough guy cheap shot artists in the pool but I never knew one who could fight worth a sh*t.

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Must have known a whole different set of water polo players than I did. Then again it's easy make bold comments hidden behind a computer screen

Beardog26;842618175 said:

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with your gratuitous reference to high end vehicles thrown in for good measure....... while needlessly adding reference to car make and models, indicates you have an agenda.

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I might point out, the Range Rover comment was in quotations. I didn't say it, my friend did.
Never said it was unique to Lamorinda either.
I have no agenda.
Good that your talking with your daughter.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20140528/todays-heroin-abusers-often-middle-class-suburbanites-study
Cheers!

mcdbear;842618213 said:

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Must have known a whole different set of water polo players than I did. Then again it's easy make bold comments hidden behind a computer screen

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Let me guess, you grew up in the suburbs and played lacrosse or water polo and you fantasized you were a tough guy and I have offended your manhood with my comments. I have no doubt that water polo players were the toughest guys in suburbia. I spent a lot of time at Cal trying to coach my fraternity brothers that grew up through the tunnel how to act in Berkeley and Oakland because their arrogance did not play well on the streets. They were absolutely clueless.

bearister;842618221 said:

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Let me guess, you grew up in the suburbs and played lacrosse or water polo and you fantasized you were a tough guy and I have offended your manhood with my comments. I have no doubt that water polo players were the toughest guys in suburbia. I spent a lot of time at Cal trying to coach my fraternity brothers that grew up through the tunnel how to act in Berkeley and Oakland because their arrogance did not play well on the streets. They were absolutely clueless.

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Nice guess but no. Internet tough guy and now message board prophet. Impressive

Bears2thDoc;842618219 said:

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I might point out, the Range Rover comment was in quotations. I didn't say it, my friend did.
Never said it was unique to Lamorinda either.
I have no agenda.
Good that your talking with your daughter.

http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/news/20140528/todays-heroin-abusers-often-middle-class-suburbanites-study
Cheers!

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Convenient. I might point out that you didn't have to include that portion of your quote to make your point. Yet you felt to compelled to do so, like you felt compelled to lecture parents in this community on the need to focus their parental efforts on an area other than sports, as if that is the only thing this community is concerned with. Sure, no agenda.

Have typically appreciated your posts through the years but today wasn't your best.

KJFan;842618185 said:

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My son plays water polo so I received the email. While I agree with the general premise that criminal prosecution should not be used except in exceptional cases, the way the email was worded caused me to pause and think that there must be more to this than the authors were letting on. Had they just given me the facts I would have much more respect and empathy for their cause. However, now I would not support simply them because I can't trust them.

I also received another email from the CEO of USA Water Polo denouncing the prior email, stating that it wasn't authorized by USA Water Polo and that the sender had no business sending the email in his official capacity as a USA Water Polo employee.

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I have no idea what you are trying to say. Who sent the misleading email and how was it misleading? Or better yet, post both emails.

Beardog26;842618239 said:

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Convenient. I might point out that you didn't have to include that portion of your quote to make your point. Yet you felt to compelled to do so, like you felt compelled to lecture parents in this community on the need to focus their parental efforts on an area other than sports, as if that is the only thing this community is concerned with. Sure, no agenda.

Have typically appreciated your posts through the years but today wasn't your best.

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Can't please everyone all the time.
Cheers!!

Surprised nobody has brought up the 1956 Olympics water polo game between the USSR and Hungary when the USSR was occupying Hungary. Hungary lost the game but every Russian's nose was broken and the water in the pool was said to be red that day. The Hungarian team all defected after that match and I believe several settled in the Bay Area.

Don't really understand the comments about suburban water polo players are not tough outside the water. Some of the guys I played with or against or played for, Pete Cutino, Steve Heaston, Bob Diepersloot, John Thompson, Pat Murphy, Kirk Everist, ... you wouldn't want to mess with. My AAU coach's cousin, Terry Schroeder, 2 meter man for the US Olympic team and Pepperdine coach was the most physically imposing man I've ever been around, and one of the nicest. But he held his own against the toughest players in the world.

There are always jerks in any sport, but it seems water polo teams are better at taking care of its own than most sports.

BearGoggles;842618245 said:

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I have no idea what you are trying to say. Who sent the misleading email and how was it misleading? Or better yet, post both emails.

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here you go.



From: "Andrew Morris" <donotreply@usawaterpolo.org>
Date: December 11, 2015 at 4:35:46 PM PST
To:
Subject: **URGENT** High School Water Polo Game Incident Sent to DA for FELONY Criminal Prosecution
Reply-To: marinwaterpolo@gmail.com





To view this email as a web page click here.


Dear Water Polo Friends and Family,

**URGENT** need your help by Monday, Dec. 14, 2015 by 3:00PM

Recently, in a high school water polo game a 15 year-old player was engaged in an offensive play and on a turnover, transitioned to defense and while doing so on the counter, the opposing player's nose was inadvertently broken. As a result, the player was disciplined with academic and athletic suspensions.

Fast forward, a police report was filed shortly after the incident and submitted to the Contra Costa County District Attorney's office. The DA has formally filed FELONY ASSAULT charges on the player, which needless to say is completely OUTRAGEOUS.

Simply put, the criminal justice system is not the place to control and address issues as described above in any sport, which happen hundreds of times per year, when there is appropriate officiating and ruling infrastructure in place at the league and school levels. Not to mention, the dangerous precedent it would set for high school sports in general.

If you are as outraged and as concerned as we are that this prosecutorial overreach could endanger high school water polo and sports in general, we need your help.

Step 1. Please write a letter addressed to the Contra Costa County District Attorney's office, Attention: Head of the Juvenile Unit and include the following:
Explain your roll and experience in the game.
If you believe the criminal justice system should NOT be involved in addressing incidents as described above, please explain why.
If you believe that this would set a dangerous precedent in governing high school sports in which such incidents happen hundreds of time per year, please explain why.
Please sign, date, scan and email your letter back to us. We will personally hand deliver these letters to the DA's office. Send letters to: waterpolo94549@gmail.com

Step 2. Please forward this email to as many water polo coaches, referees and adult former players that you know and ask them to also write a letter and forward to other members of the water polo family.

Thank you,

Buck Worthing and John Schnugg


This USAWP Updates was sent to:
This email was sent by: USA Water Polo
2124 Main Street
Suite 240
Huntington Beach, CA 92648


Followed by:


It has come to my attention that Pacific Zone Chair Andrew Morris recently sent an e-mail to you and other members regarding a high school water polo incident in Northern California. Mr. Morris's use of his USA Water Polo address and e-mail resources, as well as the inclusion of USA Water Polo marks, suggested that Mr. Morris was expressing USA Water Polo's views on this matter. In fact, Mr. Morris's statement was a personal one. His statement does not reflect USA Water Polo's views. 



I would appreciate it if you could forward this e-mail to any parties to whom you forwarded Mr. Morris' email, so that they will be fully informed.


Sincerely, 




Christopher Ramsey

Chief Executive Officer

USA Water Polo

concordtom - You obviously are clueless and humor-challenged. It was a joke. Like your grammar - "tries to say Acalanes is really any difference (sic) from MHS and CHS."

Blueandgold1 - You have a great memory. I remember reading about it in Life magazine when I was 11. The games were in Australia, and the USSR's invasion of Hungary and brutal repression of the rebellion had just occurred.
As a long time prosecutor (only 33 years in law enforcement, unlike the rest of these expert commentators), I am surprised at the charges. On the other hand, you only need to convince one judge to sustain the petition in a Juvenile Court case. I'd hate to have to convince all 12 jurors in a felony trial, but you have to see all the evidence the DA has, which none of us has seen.

[video=youtube;HeWnGeY9gw4][/video]

CAL6371;842618478 said:

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. . . but you have to see all the evidence the DA has, which none of us has seen.

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I haven't seen the video, but I know a prosecutor (who doesn't work in Contra Costa County) who has. Says if it happened any place other than in a competitive athletic event, it would be a no-brainer. A guy intentionally kicks or knees someone in the face, breaks his nose, a pretty slam dunk case. The email said "the opposing player's nose was inadvertently broken." The guy who saw the video said, "The accused may not have intended to break his nose, but if you intentionally hit a guy hard in the face, it doesn't really matter if you intended to break his nose. It is assault and battery. The email is misleading, it doesn't acknowledge the intent of the act and the vicious nature of the act."

There is a cultural notion that, even if it is away from the play and a violent act not allowed by the rules of the sport, anything happening on the athletic field should be taken care of by the sport, not law enforcement. Juan Marichal clubs John Roseboro over the head with a baseball bat? Hey, it was in a baseball game, so let his ejection and MLB's suspension take care of it, no need for criminal prosecution, even though clearly, it was a criminal act.

Playing football, hockey, baseball, water polo, shouldn't be a license to commit assault that isn't part of the game with zero law enforcement consequences. It shouldn't subject one to being a victim of assault and battery. It isn't necessarily an easy line to draw. A typical late hit to the QB isn't assault. A hit to the QB five seconds after the pass is gone, when the play is over and the QB made no effort to be involved in the play after he threw the pass? Assault and battery. Intentionally throwing an an opposing batter's head? Hard question. Juan Marichal taking a bat to Roseboro's head? Assault and battery.

Whether a case is worthy of prosecution given the consequences given by the sport's governing body is another matter, especially given the cultural notions that could contribute to an acquittal. At some point, however, we can't just let the sport governing body handle criminal behavior, but where that point is really hard to say. There are, however, cases that clearly cross the line.

The review of the video was enough to cause the player to be suspended for a game, suspended from school for a day, and suspended from the team for 18 days. Those consequences don't get handed out for an inadvertent act in transition to defense like the email suggests. I don't know what happened, I don't know if the line was crossed that should lead to criminal prosecution, but even in sports, there has to be a line.

Cal82-85 - Thanks for the info - I agree, there must be a line and the hockey prosecutions listed in this thread show that it is appropriate to use the criminal justice system at times. It will be interesting to follow this matter. Did your friend think it should be prosecuted?

Chuck Noll's rhetoric is reborn. The statement will be:

"That young man is part of the criminal element of high school water polo."