Wow I am speechless ...

What is going on? Is Putin mad about something?

Will some really silly stuff like this start the demise of the planet as we know it?

Hope the world wakes the F soon

Does a ship like that have capability to tell if the jets had armed their weapon systems?

Just seemed awful dangerous to me

going4roses;842676940 said:

---

Wow I am speechless ...

What is going on? Is Putin mad about something?

Will some really silly stuff like this start the demise of the planet as we know it?

Hope the world wakes the F soon

Does a ship like that have capability to tell if the jets had armed their weapon systems?

Just seemed awful dangerous to me

---

It's one thing to fly over or near a ship at some altitude where your (The Pilot's) profile is not indicative of an attack profile. But when one of the jets flies a low, high speed attack profile, then the risk for a firing, probably defensive, is ratcheted up real high. Low, to keep it below radar for as long as possible; high speed to increase surprise; an air-to-surface missile fired at relatively close range can close the range to the ship in a hurry. Hence the real danger of assuming an attack profile. The ship's Captain doesn't have much time to make a decision, based on the info he has. Some of that info can be whether the attacker is painting the ship with radar, either the plane's or the missile if it's gone active mode. Some weapons can be passive and home in an active signal like the ship's radar. I doubt the ship was practicing anything like a "ziplip", i.e. no electronic transmissions of any kind, being in international waters and no state of war, etc. Going back in time, recall in the Falklands war, that Argentina sank/heavily damaged a British ship using an "Exocet" missile from an old A-4 (if my memory serves me well, shaky at best).

All in all, a very provocative move by a desperate leader trying to rally his population in increasingly bad economic times.

Thx for the information

[video=youtube;eOll3v55Dmo][/video]

going4roses;842676940 said:

---

Wow I am speechless ...

What is going on? Is Putin mad about something?

Will some really silly stuff like this start the demise of the planet as we know it?

Hope the world wakes the F soon

Does a ship like that have capability to tell if the jets had armed their weapon systems?

Just seemed awful dangerous to me

---

But not all that threatening, apparently: "NAVY TIMES: Russia downplays fly-by near U.S. Navy destroyer" http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/13/why-navy-didnt-shoot-down-russian-jets/83000858/

Russian pilots rattled nerves aboard the destroyer Donald Cook, buzzing within yards of the ship in the Baltic Sea. Provocative, sure. But they weren't a credible threat. So concludes a retired Navy commanding officer, who reviewed photos and videos from the run-ins on Monday and Tuesday, when unarmed Sukhoi Su-24 fighters flew within 1,000 feet of the ship once coming as close as 30 feet in what U.S. officials called "simulated attacks." On Monday, a low-flying Russian Ka-27 Helix helicopter also appeared to take photos of the ship.

This was definitely provocative, but it doesn't amount to a threat, said the retired frigate and cruiser CO. "Well, we're not at war with Russia," Capt. Rick Hoffman said. "It would be one thing to be operating and have a threatening attack profile from someone who might not recognize me that's not the case here. "If you have visual identification of the jet, can see it isn't carrying weapons, and don't detect any electronic emissions suggesting there was a missile lock on the ship, there's nothing to be done. And ultimately, the the rules of engagement put the CO in charge of how to respond.

"You don't get to kill people just because they're being annoying," said Hoffman, who commanded frigate DeWert and cruiser Hue City. Cruisers are the fleet's foremost air defense platform and are tasked with guarding flattops from incoming threats.

NVGolfingBear;842676946 said:

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... All in all, a very provocative move by a desperate leader trying to rally his population in increasingly bad economic times.

---

USA Skipper has a cool head.
Russian economy has spent nearly all their reserves and are scrounging ... and few will loan them cash and, even then, rates will be huge. Putin is being sustained by his oligarch buddies, but they'll start to strip his bones bare if their wealth is threatened (as is happening).

Should have shot those jets with paint balls as they went by

MSaviolives;842676978 said:

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Should have shot those jets with paint balls as they went by

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Lol

Looks like Putin is butthurt (and claims it's a CIA scam) over the Panama Papers discovery of his $2 billion chestnut that his cello playing buddy is holding.

Papitobear;842676991 said:

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Looks like Putin is butthurt (and claims it's a CIA scam) over the Panama Papers discovery of his $2 billion chestnut that his cello playing buddy is holding.

---

CEO of Russia Inc. warrants compensation.

MSaviolives;842676978 said:

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Should have shot those jets with paint balls as they went by

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Love it. And Putin is doing it because he can.

He's hoping a little saber rattling will distract the populace so they forget the off shore accounts. He's gotten rich while the average Russian has gotten poorer, a day of reckoning is looming.

Papitobear;842676991 said:

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Looks like Putin is butthurt (and claims it's a CIA scam) over the Panama Papers discovery of his $2 billion chestnut that his cello playing buddy is holding.

---

going4roses;842676940 said:

---

Wow I am speechless ...

What is going on? Is Putin mad about something?

Will some really silly stuff like this start the demise of the planet as we know it?

Hope the world wakes the F soon

Does a ship like that have capability to tell if the jets had armed their weapon systems?

Just seemed awful dangerous to me

---

Maybe we should be asking why an American ship is sailing in the Baltic Sea? As crazy as Trump has been on some issues, he is right about our military positions in Europe.

MolecularBear007;842677049 said:

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Maybe we should be asking why an American ship is sailing in the Baltic Sea? As crazy as Trump has been on some issues, he is right about our military positions in Europe.

---

Another take ... Too close to Russia?

bluehenbear;842676954 said:

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[video=youtube;eOll3v55Dmo][/video]

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excellent movie...

MolecularBear007;842677049 said:

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Maybe we should be asking why an American ship is sailing in the Baltic Sea? As crazy as Trump has been on some issues, he is right about our military positions in Europe.

---

Sure, thing MoleBear. Bring 'em all home to sail Chesapeake Bay or Florida Inland Waterway.
Baltic Sea is now Russian. Concede international sea and air. Let Putin take Land with Green Men.
Trumpy is Sanders-eque on foreign and military policy.

Or fly a bunch of drones around the ship trailing lots of streamers and balloons with one flying a banner saying "Warning. Drones in Flight ... proceed at your own risk"

going4roses;842677054 said:

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Another take ... Too close to Russia?

---

It is at their door steps. I think it's time to put non-American sailors at the front lines/at risk. Why should we put our neighbors at risk to defend Europe? The Russians have been doing this forever.

SonOfCalVa;842677064 said:

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Sure, thing MoleBear. Bring 'em all home to sail Chesapeake Bay or Florida Inland Waterway.
Baltic Sea is now Russian. Concede international sea and air. Let Putin take Land with Green Men.
Trumpy is Sanders-eque on foreign and military policy.

Or fly a bunch of drones around the ship trailing lots of streamers and balloons with one flying a banner saying "Warning. Drones in Flight ... proceed at your own risk"

---

Well when you are in 18-20 trillion dollars of debt, maybe you can't afford to project that unnecessary power. If the Europeans want to keep the Baltic Sea Rudsian-free, they are free to do so.

Russia has a satellite state between Poland and Lithuania (main city Kaliningrad; part of Germany before WWII) that the planes apparently came from. This territory does not connect to 'mother' Russia,
separated also by Belarus and Estonia. It basically "guards" the Polish port of Gdansk and is now home to Russia's Baltic Sea Fleet, as well as the Chernyakhovsk and
Donskoye air bases, with thousands of Russian troops stationed there. This presence has been building for over a year.

http://www.rferl.org/content/kaliningrad-russia-nato-west-strategic/27079655.html

going4roses;842677054 said:

---

Another take ... Too close to Russia?

---

sp4149;842677093 said:

---

Russia has a satellite state between Poland and Lithuania (main city Kaliningrad; part of Germany before WWII) that the planes apparently came from. This territory does not connect to 'mother' Russia,
separated also by Belarus and Estonia. It basically "guards" the Polish port of Gdansk and is now home to Russia's Baltic Sea Fleet, as well as the Chernyakhovsk and
Donskoye air bases, with thousands of Russian troops stationed there. This presence has been building for over a year.

http://www.rferl.org/content/kaliningrad-russia-nato-west-strategic/27079655.html

---

What are they planning for?

Probably control of the Baltic from Sweden/Denmark to St. Petersburg. The Baltic states Poland have been asking for increased NATO presence in that area of the Baltic. St.Petersburg is at the far eastern end of the Baltic, a poor strategic position easily blocked. Kaliningrad is in the Western half of the Baltic; a far better strategic position to control Finland, the Baltic States and its neighbor Poland.

going4roses;842677103 said:

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What are they planning for?

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OdontoBear66;842677011 said:

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Love it. And Putin is doing it because he can.

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Our president strongly condemned it so Putin will never do it again!

MolecularBear007;842677065 said:

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It is at their door steps. I think it's time to put non-American sailors at the front lines/at risk. Why should we put our neighbors at risk to defend Europe? The Russians have been doing this forever.

---

Based on what we learned between 1913 and 1945, leaving the Europeans to their own devices costs us dearly. Pax Americana saves blood and treasure, and perhaps all life on the planet.

sp4149;842677114 said:

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Probably control of the Baltic from Sweden/Denmark to St. Petersburg. The Baltic states Poland have been asking for increased NATO presence in that area of the Baltic. St.Petersburg is at the far eastern end of the Baltic, a poor strategic position easily blocked. Kaliningrad is in the Western half of the Baltic; a far better strategic position to control Finland, the Baltic States and its neighbor Poland.

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Exactly, sp4149. Putin wants to expand Russia to its "rightful" size meaning annexing the Baltic states, probably next, and then expanding into other areas.

sp4149;842677114 said:

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Probably control of the Baltic from Sweden/Denmark to St. Petersburg. The Baltic states Poland have been asking for increased NATO presence in that area of the Baltic. St.Petersburg is at the far eastern end of the Baltic, a poor strategic position easily blocked. Kaliningrad is in the Western half of the Baltic; a far better strategic position to control Finland, the Baltic States and its neighbor Poland.

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Giant balloons above and around ships, tied to buoys, aerial laughter ...
Donate and buy a PutinSux balloon or one with The Finger and a big FU Putie
Make a statement and help the cause.

SonOfCalVa;842676973 said:

---

USA Skipper has a cool head.
Russian economy has spent nearly all their reserves and are scrounging ... and few will loan them cash and, even then, rates will be huge. Putin is being sustained by his oligarch buddies, but they'll start to strip his bones bare if their wealth is threatened (as is happening).

---

Sounds like the strategy followed by places like North Korea. Crank up a conflict with the West to take people's attention from bad economic times at home.

Ncsf;842677134 said:

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Our president strongly condemned it so Putin will never do it again!

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Alternatively we could shoot down the next Russian plane that flies too close and see what that leads to.

Go!Bears;842676966 said:

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But not all that threatening, apparently: "NAVY TIMES: Russia downplays fly-by near U.S. Navy destroyer" http://www.navytimes.com/story/military/2016/04/13/why-navy-didnt-shoot-down-russian-jets/83000858/

This was definitely provocative, but it doesn't amount to a threat, said the retired frigate and cruiser CO. "Well, we’re not at war with Russia," Capt. Rick Hoffman said. "It would be one thing to be operating and have a threatening attack profile from someone who might not recognize me — that’s not the case here. "If you have visual identification of the jet, can see it isn't carrying weapons, and don't detect any electronic emissions suggesting there was a missile lock on the ship, there's nothing to be done. And ultimately, the the rules of engagement put the CO in charge of how to respond.

---

This kind of thing has happened regularly over the last several decades, only some of which get reported. This incident isn't nearly as provocative as what we did to the Sovs in the early 1980's, when tensions were higher and trigger fingers were more itchy:

Naval Muscle-Flexing. According to published accounts, the US Navy played a key role in the PSYOP program after President Reagan authorized it in March 1981 to operate and exercise near maritime approaches to the USSR, in places where US warships had never gone before.25 Fleet exercises conducted in 1981 and 1983 near the far northern and far eastern regions of the Soviet Union demonstrated US ability to deploy aircraft-carrier battle groups close to sensitive military and industrial sites, apparently without being detected or challenged early on.26 These exercises reportedly included secret operations that simulated surprise naval air attacks on Soviet targets.

In the August-September 1981 exercise, an armada of 83 US, British, Canadian, and Norwegian ships led by the carrier Eisenhower managed to transit the Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom (GIUK) Gap undetected, using a variety of carefully crafted and previously rehearsed concealment and deception measures.27 A combination of passive measures (maintaining radio silence and operating under emissions control conditions) and active measures (radar-jamming and transmission of false radar signals) turned the allied force into something resembling a stealth fleet, which even managed to elude a Soviet low-orbit, active-radar satellite launched to locate it.28 As the warships came within operating areas of Soviet long-range reconnaissance planes, the Soviets were initially able to identify but not track them. Meanwhile, Navy fighters conducted an unprecedented simulated attack on the Soviet planes as they refueled in-flight, flying at low levels to avoid detection by Soviet shore-based radar sites.29

In the second phase of this exercise, a cruiser and three other ships left the carrier battle group and sailed north through the Norwegian Sea and then east around Norway's Cape North and into the Barents Sea. They then sailed near the militarily important Kola Peninsula and remained there for nine days before rejoining the main group.

In April-May 1983, the US Pacific Fleet held its largest exercises to date in the northwest Pacific.30 Forty ships, including three aircraft carrier battle groups, participated along with AWACS-equipped B-52s. At one point the fleet sailed within 720 kilometers (450 miles) of the Kamchatka Peninsula and Petropavlovsk, the only Soviet naval base with direct access to open seas. US attack submarines and antisubmarine aircraft conducted operations in protected areas ("bastions") where the Soviet Navy had stationed a large number of its nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines (SSBNs). US Navy aircraft from the carriers Midway and Enterprise carried out a simulated bombing run over a military installation on the small Soviet-occupied island of Zelenny in the Kuril Island chain.31

In addition to these exercises, according to published accounts, the Navy applied a full-court press against the Soviets in various forward areas. Warships began operating in the Baltic and Black Seas and routinely sailed past Cape North and into the Barents Sea. Intelligence ships were positioned off the Crimean coast. Aircraft carriers with submarine escorts were anchored in Norwegian fjords. US attack submarines practiced assaults on Soviet SSBNs stationed beneath the polar ice cap.

These US demonstrations of military might were aimed at deterring the Soviets from provocative actions and at displaying US determination to respond in kind to Soviet regional and global exercises that had become larger, more sophisticated, and more menacing in preceding years. The projection of naval and naval air power exposed gaping holes in Soviet ocean surveillance and early warning systems. For example, in a Congressional briefing on the 1983 Pacific exercise, the chief of naval operations noted that the Soviets "are as naked as a jaybird there [on the Kamchatka Peninsula], and they know it."32 His comment applied equally to the far northern maritime area and the Kola Peninsula. In short, the Navy had demonstrated that it could:

Elude the USSR's large and complex ocean surveillance systems.33
Defeat Soviet tactical warning systems.
Penetrate air defense systems.

https://www.cia.gov/library/center-for-the-study-of-intelligence/csi-publications/books-and-monographs/a-cold-war-conundrum/source.htm

going4roses;842676940 said:

---

Wow I am speechless ...

What is going on? Is Putin mad about something?

Will some really silly stuff like this start the demise of the planet as we know it?

Hope the world wakes the F soon

Does a ship like that have capability to tell if the jets had armed their weapon systems?

Just seemed awful dangerous to me

---

If Russia sends ships right off the US shore (in international waters), how do you think the US will react?

NVGolfingBear;842676946 said:

---

It's one thing to fly over or near a ship at some altitude where your (The Pilot's) profile is not indicative of an attack profile. But when one of the jets flies a low, high speed attack profile, then the risk for a firing, probably defensive, is ratcheted up real high. Low, to keep it below radar for as long as possible; high speed to increase surprise; an air-to-surface missile fired at relatively close range can close the range to the ship in a hurry. Hence the real danger of assuming an attack profile. The ship's Captain doesn't have much time to make a decision, based on the info he has. Some of that info can be whether the attacker is painting the ship with radar, either the plane's or the missile if it's gone active mode. Some weapons can be passive and home in an active signal like the ship's radar. I doubt the ship was practicing anything like a "ziplip", i.e. no electronic transmissions of any kind, being in international waters and no state of war, etc. Going back in time, recall in the Falklands war, that Argentina sank/heavily damaged a British ship using an "Exocet" missile from an old A-4 (if my memory serves me well, shaky at best).

All in all, a very provocative move by a desperate leader trying to rally his population in increasingly bad economic times.

---

Much ado about nothing.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/2014/0415/Russian-aircraft-buzz-US-Navy-destroyer-How-big-a-deal

The Russian aircraft flew within 1,000 yards of the ship and made roughly a dozen passes, but it did not fly over the destroyer, according to Pentagon officials.

"That is about as tame a flyby as you can get," Harmer says.

This maneuver might be a response to Turkey (NATO member) having shot down a Russian fighter jet over its Syrian border not too long ago. It makes Putin look good at home.

Cal88;842677199 said:

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This maneuver might be a response to Turkey (NATO member) having shot down a Russian fighter jet over its Syrian border not too long ago. It makes Putin look good at home.

---

So is Russia afraid to buzz a Turkish ship?

going4roses;842676940 said:

---

Wow I am speechless ...

---

A high ranking USN officer (retired) was quoted by a newspaper as to why the Navy had not replied by taking defensive action: "You don't get to kill people just because they're annoying."

Seems reasonable.

Ncsf;842677134 said:

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Our president strongly condemned it so Putin will never do it again!

---

I agree. Obama is weak. A real man like Ted Cruz or Donald Trump would drop a nuke on Moscow and teach those Rooskies a lesson they would not soon forget!!

68great;842677158 said:

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Alternatively we could shoot down the next Russian plane that flies too close and see what that leads to.

---

So the alternative argument is to go to war? There can be recognition of our POTUS being pushed about without wishing full out war. Putin is doing this, in our face, because he has incrementally stepped up lesser things and feels rather confident he can get away with it and "face us". And, he seems to have done just that. Because one does not like us being pushed around is a bit of a reach to conversely shoot down a Russian jet. Criticism of how our POTUS handles certain things seems to lead one to monumental jumps in the opinions of those who hold those beliefs.