And for the record, the concept of floating in outer space and surviving has already been covered. In Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect are tossed out of the airlock on the Vogon ship and survive long enough to be picked up by the spaceship Heart of Gold with its Infinite Improbability Drive. So there.

Larno said:

---

And for the record, the concept of floating in outer space and surviving has already been covered. In Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect are tossed out of the airlock on the Vogon ship and survive long enough to be picked up by the spaceship Heart of Gold with its Infinite Improbability Drive. So there.

---

Yes, but something so unlikely as that, as with the spontaneous materialization of a sperm whale and a pot of petunias, are easily explained by the use of the Infinite Improbability Drive.

Larno said:

---

Why the concern with the problem of floating into space and not dying or any of the other "problems" ? The implausibility of the movies was set from the beginning when the star cruiser rumbled onto the screen in The New Hope - there is no sound in space! Give me that sound and I'll ignore the realities. Personally, I enjoyed the new movie, if a bit too long, and look forward to the next one. For the record, Mark Hamill is exactly two days older than me, but I possess none of the Jedi powers. Yet.

---

In The Empire Strikes Back (the one everyone now says is the best Star Wars movie), Han, Leia, and Chewie are able to breathe, talk, and walk around on a floating asteroid just because they happen to be in a CAVE that turns out to be a LIVING CREATURE with BATS flying around inside it. Everyone accepted this as something totally possible.

But Leia using the Force to fly through space for a few seconds is just too much now.

sycasey said:

---

Larno said:

---

Why the concern with the problem of floating into space and not dying or any of the other "problems" ? The implausibility of the movies was set from the beginning when the star cruiser rumbled onto the screen in The New Hope - there is no sound in space! Give me that sound and I'll ignore the realities. Personally, I enjoyed the new movie, if a bit too long, and look forward to the next one. For the record, Mark Hamill is exactly two days older than me, but I possess none of the Jedi powers. Yet.

---

In The Empire Strikes Back (the one everyone now says is the best Star Wars movie), Han, Leia, and Chewie are able to breathe, talk, and walk around on a floating asteroid just because they happen to be in a CAVE that turns out to be a LIVING CREATURE with BATS flying around inside it. Everyone accepted this as something totally possible.

But Leia using the Force to fly through space for a few seconds is just too much now.

---

They don't actually breathe the should-be-non-existent air in the cave/creature. They have some air masks.

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

---

That's a huge exaggeration of the movie's message. Luke and Leia wouldn't be in the movie if nothing previous had mattered. It's just that the "logic puzzle" components of it were not that important. The characters and themes are.

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

---

That's a huge exaggeration of the movie's message. Luke and Leia wouldn't be in the movie if nothing previous had mattered. It's just that the "logic puzzle" components of it were not that important. The characters and themes are.

---

Characters warped beyond recognition with less than no effort spent justifying the transformation. The justification does not matter because the journey of the old cast of characters is no longer significant. That's how the director can cut from the scene right after Rey tells Luke that Han is dead. Han doesn't matter anymore and neither does Luke's friendship with him so it's not a scene of dramatic significance worth developing any farther.

Luke deserved a better final chapter. The bright hero of good who saved the galaxy from the first trilogy was replaced by this broken old impostor. The man who never gave up on the core goodness of Darth Vader clinched the corruption of Kylo Ren by believing he could not be redeemed even before he had turned to evil. The crusader who was willing to be murdered by the emperor to acclaim his Jedi (who were in fact the knights of good) faith made into an apostate.

If this was the direction they wanted to go, they should have set the next chapter centuries into the future and let the old trilogy lie in peace. Luke and Leia would have been better as ancient history than this depiction.

There it is. I have suspected that most of people's true objections to this movie don't have to do with the logistical or scientific issues brought up in the critiques, but rather are rooted in a general dissatisfaction with where this movie (plus Force Awakens) took the characters from the OT (Luke especially). I think your last response has basically brought us there.

And you know what? I can respect a stance that they should not have made new movies with the original heroes (Luke, Leia, Han), because whatever interpretation the new filmmakers came up with could not possibly match with what the fans had been imagining for all these years. I don't personally agree with that stance (I like the new twist this movie puts on the original mythology), but I can respect it.

sycasey said:

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There it is. I have suspected that most of people's true objections to this movie don't have to do with the logistical or scientific issues brought up in the critiques, but rather are rooted in a general dissatisfaction with where this movie (plus Force Awakens) took the characters from the OT (Luke especially). I think your last response has basically brought us there.

And you know what? I can respect a stance that they should not have made new movies with the original heroes (Luke, Leia, Han), because whatever interpretation the new filmmakers came up with could not possibly match with what the fans had been imagining for all these years. I don't personally agree with that stance (I like the new twist this movie puts on the original mythology), but I can respect it.

---

It's in the very first post I made. My problems with this movie are comprehensive. It's both the logical consistency and narrative that I believe are deficient here, along with the failed combination of comedic and dramatic tone. It's both a bad movie and a bad Star Wars movie.

The video posted by MinotStateBeav did an excellent job capturing this movie's issues. For 95% or more of the over 30 minutes worth of crap the reviewer wades through, there's not much more to be said in the way of excuse aside from "meh, doesn't bother me."

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

---

That's a huge exaggeration of the movie's message. Luke and Leia wouldn't be in the movie if nothing previous had mattered. It's just that the "logic puzzle" components of it were not that important. The characters and themes are.

---

Characters warped beyond recognition with less than no effort spent justifying the transformation. The justification does not matter because the journey of the old cast of characters is no longer significant. That's how the director can cut from the scene right after Rey tells Luke that Han is dead. Han doesn't matter anymore and neither does Luke's friendship with him so it's not a scene of dramatic significance worth developing any farther.

Luke deserved a better final chapter. The bright hero of good who saved the galaxy from the first trilogy was replaced by this broken old impostor. The man who never gave up on the core goodness of Darth Vader clinched the corruption of Kylo Ren by believing he could not be redeemed even before he had turned to evil. The crusader who was willing to be murdered by the emperor to acclaim his Jedi (who were in fact the knights of good) faith made into an apostate.

If this was the direction they wanted to go, they should have set the next chapter centuries into the future and let the old trilogy lie in peace. Luke and Leia would have been better as ancient history than this depiction.

---

Maybe because I don't have the idealized image of the original Star Wars, I drastically disagree with this interpretation of Luke deserving a better final chapter.

I'm sorry, but the hero worship of American audiences is what makes for bad movies. The desire for Han Solo to have some big farewell was a criticism of the last movie. He died trying to save his son. And instead of a meaningless dramatic funeral, his loss is felt in a quiet moment between Rey and Leia. That is how real loss is felt.

IMO, this movie may have given a one dimensional Luke character a richness that was not "deserved" by the previous movies. The ever good hero is given humanity. He has flaws to overcome. His faith is tested.

You have adopted Kylo Ren's version of events. Luke did not clinch Ren's corruption before he turned to evil. That is what Ren wanted Rey to believe. Maybe even what he believes. But Luke didn't actually try to kill him and he WAS going evil. Ren fooled Rey and then fooled the audience by imitating Vader and killing his master, only to find out he did so for his own gain. Luke told Rey (and by extension us) that what she saw didn't mean what she thought it did. If Luke made a mistake it was in deciding at the last moment NOT to kill Ren because he hoped he could be brought to the light when he knew he could not. That decision allowed Ren to escape.

Luke came to believe the Jedi was flawed and needed to be destroyed, but ultimately he saved the whole resistance and saved Rey. The resistance survives only because Luke saved it. I don't see how he can have a better ending than that. I know there are many out there that wanted him to go out with some swashbuckling battle to save the galaxy, but his last gambit to me is a fitting end and it is a reference back to the first movie when Ben sacrifices himself to pass the torch on to Luke. Luke faces a young Ren who is eager to fight and destroy him. He uses that to outsmart him long enough to save the resistance. Ren could have destroyed the resistance by ignoring Luke and going after them instead. Luke's defense was a mirage. He won the battle not by fighting but by using wisdom. Unfortunately that is not heroic to some in the audience who like superheroes who can punch.

I have issues with the movie (none of which have to do with it not living up to an idealized vision of the originals), but it is not with how Luke was treated.

OaktownBear said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

---

That's a huge exaggeration of the movie's message. Luke and Leia wouldn't be in the movie if nothing previous had mattered. It's just that the "logic puzzle" components of it were not that important. The characters and themes are.

---

Characters warped beyond recognition with less than no effort spent justifying the transformation. The justification does not matter because the journey of the old cast of characters is no longer significant. That's how the director can cut from the scene right after Rey tells Luke that Han is dead. Han doesn't matter anymore and neither does Luke's friendship with him so it's not a scene of dramatic significance worth developing any farther.

Luke deserved a better final chapter. The bright hero of good who saved the galaxy from the first trilogy was replaced by this broken old impostor. The man who never gave up on the core goodness of Darth Vader clinched the corruption of Kylo Ren by believing he could not be redeemed even before he had turned to evil. The crusader who was willing to be murdered by the emperor to acclaim his Jedi (who were in fact the knights of good) faith made into an apostate.

If this was the direction they wanted to go, they should have set the next chapter centuries into the future and let the old trilogy lie in peace. Luke and Leia would have been better as ancient history than this depiction.

---

Maybe because I don't have the idealized image of the original Star Wars, I drastically disagree with this interpretation of Luke deserving a better final chapter.

I'm sorry, but the hero worship of American audiences is what makes for bad movies. The desire for Han Solo to have some big farewell was a criticism of the last movie. He died trying to save his son. And instead of a meaningless dramatic funeral, his loss is felt in a quiet moment between Rey and Leia. That is how real loss is felt.

IMO, this movie may have given a one dimensional Luke character a richness that was not "deserved" by the previous movies. The ever good hero is given humanity. He has flaws to overcome. His faith is tested.

You have adopted Kylo Ren's version of events. Luke did not clinch Ren's corruption before he turned to evil. That is what Ren wanted Rey to believe. Maybe even what he believes. But Luke didn't actually try to kill him and he WAS going evil. Ren fooled Rey and then fooled the audience by imitating Vader and killing his master, only to find out he did so for his own gain. Luke told Rey (and by extension us) that what she saw didn't mean what she thought it did. If Luke made a mistake it was in deciding at the last moment NOT to kill Ren because he hoped he could be brought to the light when he knew he could not. That decision allowed Ren to escape.

Luke came to believe the Jedi was flawed and needed to be destroyed, but ultimately he saved the whole resistance and saved Rey. The resistance survives only because Luke saved it. I don't see how he can have a better ending than that. I know there are many out there that wanted him to go out with some swashbuckling battle to save the galaxy, but his last gambit to me is a fitting end and it is a reference back to the first movie when Ben sacrifices himself to pass the torch on to Luke. Luke faces a young Ren who is eager to fight and destroy him. He uses that to outsmart him long enough to save the resistance. Ren could have destroyed the resistance by ignoring Luke and going after them instead. Luke's defense was a mirage. He won the battle not by fighting but by using wisdom. Unfortunately that is not heroic to some in the audience who like superheroes who can punch.

I have issues with the movie (none of which have to do with it not living up to an idealized vision of the originals), but it is not with how Luke was treated.

---

We are in total disagreement.

OaktownBear said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

Cave Bear said:

---

Those are ridiculous powers for her character to have with the exactly zero Jedi training she's been shown to have in the film. The most impressive ability to use the force yet demonstrated by an untrained user was Luke's managing to fetch his lightsaber when he's stuck in the ice cave on Hoth. At the start of The Last Jedi, Leia's most impressive force ability had been the ability to receive telepathic messages sent by Luke. The only other power she had been shown to have was the ability to sense whether Luke or Han were dead. Now suddenly she can withstand explosions without a scratch, survive explosive decompression and exposure to the vacuum and temperature of space and can fly who knows how fast (she was sucked out of the bridge on a random trajectory away from a spaceship that is still accelerating so at the least very, very fast) while maintaining both life and consciousness in space. The appropriate reaction to this sudden explosion of her character's abilities was captured on the protest video posted by MinotStateBeav. It would be like them making more Lord of the Rings movies and suddenly the dwarf can fly and shoot death rays from his eyes. An intelligent person is sitting there thinking "wait, when did Gimli get these superpowers?"

---

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, the filmmakers are well aware that this hasn't been shown before and this is part of their development of Leia's character, to show that she is more Force-capable than previously thought. This might also fit in with the movie's overall theme that the Jedi Order was kinda bull**** and you don't have to follow the ancient texts to be great in the Force.

---

At that point, you might as well say nothing that happened before in the films matters at all. Which is the movie's overall theme and why I think it's garbage (apart from all the other regular bad movie ways in which it's garbage)

---

That's a huge exaggeration of the movie's message. Luke and Leia wouldn't be in the movie if nothing previous had mattered. It's just that the "logic puzzle" components of it were not that important. The characters and themes are.

---

Characters warped beyond recognition with less than no effort spent justifying the transformation. The justification does not matter because the journey of the old cast of characters is no longer significant. That's how the director can cut from the scene right after Rey tells Luke that Han is dead. Han doesn't matter anymore and neither does Luke's friendship with him so it's not a scene of dramatic significance worth developing any farther.

Luke deserved a better final chapter. The bright hero of good who saved the galaxy from the first trilogy was replaced by this broken old impostor. The man who never gave up on the core goodness of Darth Vader clinched the corruption of Kylo Ren by believing he could not be redeemed even before he had turned to evil. The crusader who was willing to be murdered by the emperor to acclaim his Jedi (who were in fact the knights of good) faith made into an apostate.

If this was the direction they wanted to go, they should have set the next chapter centuries into the future and let the old trilogy lie in peace. Luke and Leia would have been better as ancient history than this depiction.

---

Maybe because I don't have the idealized image of the original Star Wars, I drastically disagree with this interpretation of Luke deserving a better final chapter.

I'm sorry, but the hero worship of American audiences is what makes for bad movies. The desire for Han Solo to have some big farewell was a criticism of the last movie. He died trying to save his son. And instead of a meaningless dramatic funeral, his loss is felt in a quiet moment between Rey and Leia. That is how real loss is felt.

IMO, this movie may have given a one dimensional Luke character a richness that was not "deserved" by the previous movies. The ever good hero is given humanity. He has flaws to overcome. His faith is tested.

You have adopted Kylo Ren's version of events. Luke did not clinch Ren's corruption before he turned to evil. That is what Ren wanted Rey to believe. Maybe even what he believes. But Luke didn't actually try to kill him and he WAS going evil. Ren fooled Rey and then fooled the audience by imitating Vader and killing his master, only to find out he did so for his own gain. Luke told Rey (and by extension us) that what she saw didn't mean what she thought it did. If Luke made a mistake it was in deciding at the last moment NOT to kill Ren because he hoped he could be brought to the light when he knew he could not. That decision allowed Ren to escape.

Luke came to believe the Jedi was flawed and needed to be destroyed, but ultimately he saved the whole resistance and saved Rey. The resistance survives only because Luke saved it. I don't see how he can have a better ending than that. I know there are many out there that wanted him to go out with some swashbuckling battle to save the galaxy, but his last gambit to me is a fitting end and it is a reference back to the first movie when Ben sacrifices himself to pass the torch on to Luke. Luke faces a young Ren who is eager to fight and destroy him. He uses that to outsmart him long enough to save the resistance. Ren could have destroyed the resistance by ignoring Luke and going after them instead. Luke's defense was a mirage. He won the battle not by fighting but by using wisdom. Unfortunately that is not heroic to some in the audience who like superheroes who can punch.

I have issues with the movie (none of which have to do with it not living up to an idealized vision of the originals), but it is not with how Luke was treated.

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Excellent breakdown. Agreed 100%.

MoragaBear said:

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I loved the movie and so did my whole family and everyone I knows that saw it.

What are some of your specific complaints since you already labeled it a spoiler thread?

I can't watch the "review" unless I put earbuds in since it's @50% profanity. Something about the lack of political framework surrounding the story line? I don't find the idea of an ununified, politically and socially-fractured galaxy particularly unbelievable. And besides, that theme started with The Force Awakens.

---

I said this when we had the complaints about the last episode. The main issue is that some people have an idealized vision of the original movies. Star Wars was special because it broke ground. It showed the movie industry that they could make money by investing in a superior product. They had special effects that were incredible because they invented them. The "this is what it needs to be. No one's ever done it before, and I don't know how we are going to do it, but we are going to do it" variety. They had a decent script. No great literature, but decent in a genre filled with crap. They paid for things like a top notch score. They went whole hog in a way no one ever had and it paid off.

The thing is, there have been literally hundreds of movies that have done the same thing since then. CGI has made special effects not special anymore. Anyone can do it. It is like if the Beatles came back and wrote "I Wanna Hold Your Hand Again". People would pan it as not as good as the original because they've heard similar songs a thousand times since. Star Wars cannot be ground breaking AGAIN. They already broke that ground and many have followed.

I have some issues. I think they seem to be expanding the powers that Jedi can have. I don't think it is plausible for a republic to be so easily disbanded and then the resistance coming from that republic to dwindle to a handful of people on one space ship. I definitely don't think it is plausible for that resistance to keep fighting when outnumbered 100 Billion to 1. I think there is lack of explanation for why so many people in this galaxy are so evil that they keep following what is essentially Nazism. And maybe this galaxy should just be allowed to implode if so many people are that evil.

But they didn't hire me to write the script, so I don't get to write it. And I think that is a lot of the issue for many people. They have too much invested in the characters. They write plot lines for them in their heads or think about what "should" happen to them. Especially given they had a 30 year vacuum to do it in. Well, sorry, you don't get to decide what happens to them. Rather than trying to decide that, be entertained or don't be.

Someone derisively referred to it as an Avengers movie. Well, I think that is the problem. That is exactly what they are. ALL OF THEM. Good Avengers movies. If Star Wars never happened and you took Dr. Strange back to the 70's, it would have blown people's minds. Star Wars is not deeper than that. It is not great literature. It is a good story. Good. That is all. Loads more philosophy in Lord of the Rings or even Harry Potter (with a much more fully fleshed out and believable "universe"). Frankly, many episodes of Doctor Who have more intelligence in the actual story.

You can either wallow in the fact that it doesn't cause you the same amazement as it did when you were 10 years old and adventure and sci-fi movies were much less sophisticated, or you can be entertained. Enjoy the ride or don't. We aren't talking high art here. It is what it always was. A thrill ride. A somewhat intelligent one, but a thrill ride nonetheless.

OaktownBear said:

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Someone derisively referred to it as an Avengers movie. Well, I think that is the problem. That is exactly what they are. ALL OF THEM. Good Avengers movies.

---

I find it strange when people complain about Star Wars being too much like Marvel movies, because frankly, most of those Marvel movies are pretty good. They are decent stories, well-made, sometimes with some interesting themes to them. Those first two Captain America movies are good entertainments with some ideas about what it means to be a hero. The first Iron Man movie is a fun ride that is also about a guy learning to believe in himself again. Guardians of the Galaxy is a super-fun space adventure that is also about finding a new family after having lost an old one.

Sure, some of them are sub-par and some are overstuffed. Same with Star Wars. I can still enjoy a good one when it comes along.

In case some of you didn't know .... DISNEY owns

Lucasfilms .... Star Wars

Marvel .... Most of the Marvel universe (Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr Strange, etc)

Fox films .... Recently purchased (Xmen, mutants, Spider-Man)

ABC

ESPN

Pixar
And ... Probably more and more to come

Who would have thought the world one day would be owned by a mouse ????

Star Wars like the Avengers??? Same company ...definitely similar results

calgldnbear said:

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In case some of you didn't know .... DISNEY owns

Lucasfilms .... Star Wars

Marvel .... Most of the Marvel universe (Avengers, Guardians of the Galaxy, Dr Strange, etc)

Fox films .... Recently purchased (Xmen, mutants, Spider-Man)

ABC

ESPN

Pixar
And ... Probably more and more to come

Who would have thought the world one day would be owned by a mouse ????

Star Wars like the Avengers??? Same company ...definitely similar results

---

I welcome our new mouse overlords.

sycasey said:

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I welcome our new mouse overlords.

---

"Earthman, the planet you lived on was commissioned, paid for, and run by mice. It was destroyed five minutes before the completion of the purpose for which it was built, and we've got to build another one."
Only one word registered with Arthur.
"Mice?" he said.
"Indeed Earthman."
"Look, sorry - are we talking about the little white furry things with the cheese fixation and women standing on tables screaming in early sixties sit coms?"
Slartibartfast coughed politely.
"[...] These creatures you call mice, you see, they are not quite as they appear. They are merely the protrusion into our dimension of vast hyperintelligent pandimensional beings. The whole business with the cheese and the squeaking is just a front."
The old man paused, and with a sympathetic frown continued.
"They've been experimenting on you, I'm afraid."

Well I saw it (TLJ) again, and this time with more determination I was able to avoid falling asleep. Overall, I liked it. A lot of discussion about why critics rate it in the 90s and fans on Rotten Tomato rate it in the 50's, but I'd split the difference and give it a solid 73.

There's some nice stuff here. The Kylo/Ray battle vs. the Imperial Guard was the best melee combat sequence in the entire 9 film (including Rogue One) fiesta. The red trailing dust streams is a straight up homage to Kurosawa's Ran and is well done. Basically I liked almost all of RIan Johnson's work with the film.

I disliked all the parts with JJ Abrams greasy fingerprints on it. All the mimicking/mirroring of The Sith Strikes Back. We're already seen one unoriginal redo (The Force Awakens). Thank goodness his second attempt was aborted. Which makes his (JJ Abrams) return for the next film all the more ominous.

• "We do not succeed in changing things according to our desire, but gradually our desire changes. The situation that we hoped to change because it was intolerable becomes unimportant. We have not managed to surmount the obstacle, as we were absolutely determined to do, but life has taken us round it, led us past it, and then if we turn round to gaze at the remote past, we can barely catch sight of it, so imperceptible has it become." - Marcel Proust

One of my pet peeves with a lot of these sci-fi/fantasy movies are with the battle tactics.

Fighting lumbering gigantic machines head on? In TLJ and even in LOTR-Return of the King, why fight head-on when you are smaller and quicker and should be attacking from the sides or from behind?

&

2 Dimensional battlefields in space!! Did we not learn in Wrath of Khan that we space battles should be fought along all 3 axis?

sycasey said:

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Cave Bear said:

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You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

---

It's not really the scientific implausibility that bothers me. It's the fact that the originals went to extreme lengths to stress the fact that to master the force it takes significant hard work, will, patience and determination.

You'd think that would be a nice message especially in this day and age of instant gratification. That hard work actually means something. But nope. That theme, completely out the window.

The originals also stressed the contrast between Luke and Leia. Luke chose the life of devoting his life to the force. Leia did not. Becoming a Jedi is like becoming a monk. You sacrifice everything so you can deserve to learn the ways of the force.

But now, none of that matters. Starting with Rey and her instant abilities (even more instant than young Anakin) and now Leia.

You don't need to work or sacrifice or train. All that matters is natural ability.

And it's not like the writers are consciously making the decision to go that way. It's just plain lazy writing.

sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

---

Someone derisively referred to it as an Avengers movie. Well, I think that is the problem. That is exactly what they are. ALL OF THEM. Good Avengers movies.

---

I find it strange when people complain about Star Wars being too much like Marvel movies, because frankly, most of those Marvel movies are pretty good. They are decent stories, well-made, sometimes with some interesting themes to them. Those first two Captain America movies are good entertainments with some ideas about what it means to be a hero. The first Iron Man movie is a fun ride that is also about a guy learning to believe in himself again. Guardians of the Galaxy is a super-fun space adventure that is also about finding a new family after having lost an old one.

Sure, some of them are sub-par and some are overstuffed. Same with Star Wars. I can still enjoy a good one when it comes along.

---

And herein lies the root of the disagreement. As oaktown so eloquently put it, it's just a matter of ones expectations.

I'm fine with the marvel movies. They are made to make money and entertain. They are fine when you watch it and then you completely forget about it after. Fight club coined the phrase, "single serving friend". That's what marvel movies are, single serving movies. And that's fine.

But with Star Wars, I'm sorry, but I expect more. I disagree with oaktown that it's just a meh story. It's an amazingly original universe. With wonderful characters and worlds to discover. You also already have one of the best movie scores already built in.

So if you're the director, with a chance to make a movie truly transcendent, why not take it. Abrams is a coward, we all knew that, so force awakens was predictably pure fan service.

But I feel like with last Jedi, rj was conflicted. He wanted to say something. He wanted to make a great movie. But there's also this tremendous pressure to make a marketable movie. Thus the stupid porg puffin thing, the bad jokes and the dumbed down dialogue. That's why the movie just felt so uneven. It's a guy wanting to make something thought provoking and challenging but also pulled by the weight of box office expectations.

If it's me, I go all in. That's obviously easy for me to say from my couch, but that's my mindset. You get one shot at making dark knight or the matrix or Lotr. You get one shot at greatness. Take it. F everything else. That's my expectation for a Star Wars movie.

Unrealistic? Sure. But if no one is willing to do it, big budget movies are only going to get worse and worse. And our expectations for such movies will only go lower and lower.

ducky23 said:

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It's not really the scientific implausibility that bothers me. It's the fact that the originals went to extreme lengths to stress the fact that to master the force it takes significant hard work, will, patience and determination.

You'd think that would be a nice message especially in this day and age of instant gratification. That hard work actually means something. But nope. That theme, completely out the window.

The originals also stressed the contrast between Luke and Leia. Luke chose the life of devoting his life to the force. Leia did not. Becoming a Jedi is like becoming a monk. You sacrifice everything so you can deserve to learn the ways of the force.

But now, none of that matters. Starting with Rey and her instant abilities (even more instant than young Anakin) and now Leia.

You don't need to work or sacrifice or train. All that matters is natural ability.

And it's not like the writers are consciously making the decision to go that way. It's just plain lazy writing.

---

Meh. How much time elapses from the time the Millennium Falcon leaves Hoth to the point where Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are captured in The Empire Strikes Back? That's the totality of time that Luke trained to be a Jedi with a teacher.

So it's not like Luke had a whole lot of training either. And it's not like those initial films didn't have some plot holes.

The Leia flying in space thing is just dumb. It doesn't serve the story in any meaningful way. It's just the writer saying "I want to show Leia can do cool Force things too," but instead of having her do something small like call a lightsaber to your hand, she propels herself through a vacuum. And it's dumb in a way that the rest of the movie is dumb, particularly in regards to the elongated space battle that could have easily been resolved by the bad guys in any number of ways. Dumb stuff like that erodes the enjoyability of a movie much more than asking the question of whether human beings with respirators could survive inside a space worm.

Yogi Bear said:

---

ducky23 said:

---

It's not really the scientific implausibility that bothers me. It's the fact that the originals went to extreme lengths to stress the fact that to master the force it takes significant hard work, will, patience and determination.

You'd think that would be a nice message especially in this day and age of instant gratification. That hard work actually means something. But nope. That theme, completely out the window.

The originals also stressed the contrast between Luke and Leia. Luke chose the life of devoting his life to the force. Leia did not. Becoming a Jedi is like becoming a monk. You sacrifice everything so you can deserve to learn the ways of the force.

But now, none of that matters. Starting with Rey and her instant abilities (even more instant than young Anakin) and now Leia.

You don't need to work or sacrifice or train. All that matters is natural ability.

And it's not like the writers are consciously making the decision to go that way. It's just plain lazy writing.

---

Meh. How much time elapses from the time the Millennium Falcon leaves Hoth to the point where Han, Leia, and Chewbacca are captured in The Empire Strikes Back? That's the totality of time that Luke trained to be a Jedi with a teacher.

So it's not like Luke had a whole lot of training either. And it's not like those initial films didn't have some plot holes.

The Leia flying in space thing is just dumb. It doesn't serve the story in any meaningful way. It's just the writer saying "I want to show Leia can do cool Force things too," but instead of having her do something small like call a lightsaber to your hand, she propels herself through a vacuum. And it's dumb in a way that the rest of the movie is dumb, particularly in regards to the elongated space battle that could have easily been resolved by the bad guys in any number of ways. Dumb stuff like that erodes the enjoyability of a movie much more than asking the question of whether human beings with respirators could survive inside a space worm.

---

Empire strikes back went to great lengths to make the point that Luke wasn't ready when he left yoda. And that Luke was being impulsive by leaving and that becoming a true Jedi requires patience.

When Luke flew off, obi won and yoda already considered him either dead or as joining the dark side.

Thank you Cave Bear. I can ignore logical implausibility regarding scientific facts in science fiction.
But I get upset with major changes in the personality of the on-screen characters.
To me Luke was always at the heart and soul of the New Hope. He was the New Hope. And he succeeded in bringing Darth Vader back to the light.
George Lukas had many failings as a director. But his "Heroic" vision seems to be missing in the current crop of directors. (By Heroic I refer to Heroic as in the Iliad and Lord of the Rings.)

ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

---

Cave Bear said:

---

You have a point though, that was a scientifically broken scene because there shouldn't be an atmosphere down the gullet of this giant space worm, so Han, Leia and Chewie all should have died the moment the Falcon's doors opened. It's not clear to me whether this was a dumb intentional decision by the director or if it was a very dumb oversight. It is clear to me that Superleia was a terrible idea whose execution was even worse. What happened in The Empire Strikes Back doesn't change that.

---

The takeaway here is that it's okay for a space-opera fantasy to be scientifically implausible.

---

It's not really the scientific implausibility that bothers me. It's the fact that the originals went to extreme lengths to stress the fact that to master the force it takes significant hard work, will, patience and determination.

You'd think that would be a nice message especially in this day and age of instant gratification. That hard work actually means something. But nope. That theme, completely out the window.

The originals also stressed the contrast between Luke and Leia. Luke chose the life of devoting his life to the force. Leia did not. Becoming a Jedi is like becoming a monk. You sacrifice everything so you can deserve to learn the ways of the force.

But now, none of that matters. Starting with Rey and her instant abilities (even more instant than young Anakin) and now Leia.

You don't need to work or sacrifice or train. All that matters is natural ability.

And it's not like the writers are consciously making the decision to go that way. It's just plain lazy writing.

---

Do the actual Original Trilogy MOVIES draw such a contrast between Luke and Leia? Or does this idea mostly come from outside literature? We don't actually know how much time Leia spent working on improving her Force-abilities in the last 30 years. There is maybe one line in The Force Awakens suggesting that Luke chose to focus on training and she did not, but that's not great proof of anything one way or the other. Yoda and Obi-Wan did seem to think Leia would have as much potential as Luke.

I'd also say that the original movies' stance on hard work and training is maybe a bit slippery. Luke trains for a brief period of time with Yoda, and then in ROTJ he's able to save the day even without completing it. At his death, Yoda tells Luke, "No more training do you require." Perhaps it was always more about an individual's relationship with the Force and a personal journey, not necessarily like a video game where you have to collect achievements and level-up?

ducky23 said:

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So if you're the director, with a chance to make a movie truly transcendent, why not take it. Abrams is a coward, we all knew that, so force awakens was predictably pure fan service.

But I feel like with last Jedi, rj was conflicted. He wanted to say something. He wanted to make a great movie. But there's also this tremendous pressure to make a marketable movie. Thus the stupid porg puffin thing, the bad jokes and the dumbed down dialogue. That's why the movie just felt so uneven. It's a guy wanting to make something thought provoking and challenging but also pulled by the weight of box office expectations.

If it's me, I go all in. That's obviously easy for me to say from my couch, but that's my mindset. You get one shot at making dark knight or the matrix or Lotr. You get one shot at greatness. Take it. F everything else. That's my expectation for a Star Wars movie.

Unrealistic? Sure. But if no one is willing to do it, big budget movies are only going to get worse and worse. And our expectations for such movies will only go lower and lower.

---

We definitely disagree here. I think what you describe as "bad jokes" and "dumbed down dialogue" are NOT a result of pandering, but are honestly the direction Johnson wanted to take it. The irreverent, modernized tone is part of his "go for broke" approach towards shaking the franchise out of its origins (which have now become ossified and predictable) and introducing something new into the mix. Obviously some people weren't on board for this approach. That's fine; it happens every time someone wants to shake things up.

But personally, I thought the jokes mostly worked and that the dialogue was no worse than anything George Lucas ever wrote. Porgs are no worse than Ewoks, probably better in this case since we're not asked to believe they can defeat an Imperial army. YMMV.

There seems to be a certain implication in your argument that you can't have a light-hearted tone and also be thought-provoking and challenging. I think that's a false dichotomy.

saw movie last night.

I consider myself a star wars fan. I've seen every movie, but the only one I truly liked was the original (IV). I liked it mostly because I liked the characters (Han Solo and Leia) and because it was simple good guys vs bad guys movie. If you wanted to dissect it for science or believability, it would have ranked low (why can't these highly trained storm troopers shoot straight?)

However I don't know how star war fans refer to themselves. Is there a 'trekie' or 'treker' equivalent? If so, I'm not one. Therefore I don't really have a dog in this fight. I thought I'd post some of my thoughts from the view of a casual star wars fan...

I liked the movie. One of the best for me because the story was deeper than most and because it explained the characters backgrounds/ motivations. Besides IV and V, I pretty much thought every other star wars movie was meh (I liked that III explained vader).

I liked the new character Rose

I liked the bad guy, and the complex relationship between him and Rey. I liked how the bad guy killed the big bad guy and the fight with the red guard afterwards. I liked how the bad guys light saber was raw while Rey's light saber was more refined. I liked how Luke tricked the bad guy at the end. Fitting ending for Luke. I only wish that Leia had the chance to go out the right way in the last movie. For example, she easily could have been the one who sacrificed her life by ramming the V wing. Guess they had plans for her in the last movie (RIP).

Agree the humor didn't work, although I've felt that way since Han Solo and Leia weren't central characters. But largely, I don't let the little stuff bother me. I've explained I'm just a casual star wars fan, plus there wasn't a book that was interpreted (i.e. like the lord of the rings movies). I notice some of the science stuff, but I just let it go.

Basically, I take the good things of the movie, and don't let the bad things bother me unless they are central and irritating (e.g. jar jar and ewoks). Kinda how I view Cal sports I guess.

ducky23 said:

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sycasey said:

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OaktownBear said:

---

Someone derisively referred to it as an Avengers movie. Well, I think that is the problem. That is exactly what they are. ALL OF THEM. Good Avengers movies.

---

I find it strange when people complain about Star Wars being too much like Marvel movies, because frankly, most of those Marvel movies are pretty good. They are decent stories, well-made, sometimes with some interesting themes to them. Those first two Captain America movies are good entertainments with some ideas about what it means to be a hero. The first Iron Man movie is a fun ride that is also about a guy learning to believe in himself again. Guardians of the Galaxy is a super-fun space adventure that is also about finding a new family after having lost an old one.

Sure, some of them are sub-par and some are overstuffed. Same with Star Wars. I can still enjoy a good one when it comes along.

---

And herein lies the root of the disagreement. As oaktown so eloquently put it, it's just a matter of ones expectations.

I'm fine with the marvel movies. They are made to make money and entertain. They are fine when you watch it and then you completely forget about it after. Fight club coined the phrase, "single serving friend". That's what marvel movies are, single serving movies. And that's fine.

But with Star Wars, I'm sorry, but I expect more. I disagree with oaktown that it's just a meh story. It's an amazingly original universe. With wonderful characters and worlds to discover. You also already have one of the best movie scores already built in.

So if you're the director, with a chance to make a movie truly transcendent, why not take it. Abrams is a coward, we all knew that, so force awakens was predictably pure fan service.

But I feel like with last Jedi, rj was conflicted. He wanted to say something. He wanted to make a great movie. But there's also this tremendous pressure to make a marketable movie. Thus the stupid porg puffin thing, the bad jokes and the dumbed down dialogue. That's why the movie just felt so uneven. It's a guy wanting to make something thought provoking and challenging but also pulled by the weight of box office expectations.

If it's me, I go all in. That's obviously easy for me to say from my couch, but that's my mindset. You get one shot at making dark knight or the matrix or Lotr. You get one shot at greatness. Take it. F everything else. That's my expectation for a Star Wars movie.

Unrealistic? Sure. But if no one is willing to do it, big budget movies are only going to get worse and worse. And our expectations for such movies will only go lower and lower.

---

My main disagreement with you is I just don't know what you are seeing when you watch A New Hope. Your characterization of what you would do with the movie reminds me of the singer who jazzes up the National Anthem and everyone asks why they don't just sing the damned thing.

The original trilogy is the poster child and basically the originator of modern day shameless merchandizing in movies. I get it if you don't like porgs, but if you don't, that has to be a criticism of the whole franchise. As syc said, at least the porgs are just kind of thrown in and not made an integral part of the story.

Dumb Jokes? Like "I'd rather kiss a wookie". Like R2 playing chess with Chewbacca? Like "Don't get cocky, kid" Like the site gag with R2 and C3PO walking across the hallway in the middle of a battle and not getting hit by like a thousand blasters going off all around them. Like falling into a garbage masher. Like everyone's favorite character, Han Solo, telling a joke about every third line he uttered. Like R2 and C3PO doing a droid version of Laurel and Hardy through the whole movie? I would love to do a count of jokes in each of the movies and do a comparison.

Part of what made the original trilogy good was that it didn't take itself too seriously as many of its predecessors in the sci-fi genre did and as some of its fans do.

My issue with the universe created in the original trilogy is that other than the battle between Vader and Luke and whether one can be turned to the dark or the light, the baddies are the height of evil and the goodies are the height of good. It takes until movie 7 before it can be contemplated that one storm trooper out of millions might question. There is no doubt that the empire is 100% evil. The republic is 100% good. (which again, leads to the question, why are so many willing to sign up to support and lay down their lives for pure evil?)

And come on. The philosophical underpinning of the movies is, there is a force. May it be with you. It is a quest movie. Plain and simple.

And this is where I really disagree with people about Luke's treatment here. Does it occur to anyone that yeah, a kid plucked off a backwater planet and basically told he is the hope for good in the galaxy might go off idealistically fighting for the cause. But that when he wins and the galaxy falls into hell anyway, and when he realizes "the force" has taken his father from him, and has taken his nephew from him and that there seems to always be someone willing to use the force for the dark side (and by the way, they seem to come from his family a lot) and that the result is that the galaxy is pretty much always oppressed and after 30 years of this shyte says "you know what? this force thing effing sucks". Anything else makes Luke an effing lobotomized dimwit. Frankly, it is about time someone questioned it. I'm surprised the galaxy hasn't rounded up every jedi and killed them and their entire families in an attempt to wipe out the scourge that constantly leads to misery.

Quite honestly, Luke's role in LOTJ is the best thing in the new series. It brings a reality that the original never had.

My biggest issue with the last two movies is that they were so determined to kill off the old characters. I don't know why they had to do that. Han Solo is still the best character in the movies, and Luke just got good. I agree that no one wants to see a bunch of old guys running around with light sabers, but I think the complexity of older characters with life experience could have added to the plots, as I think they have. Now they have cleared the decks for Rey and Ren, and frankly, we've seen that story before.

But honestly, back to your point. Lucas was very much concerned with making a marketable movie. If he hadn't been, the big budget movie may never have become a thing because the studio would have lost its shirt. That was what made Star Wars so good. The ultimate entertainment value. Had he spent his time trying to "say" something, it would have been a disaster. I really don't see the great insights he imparted. The story line at base was a standard, Hollywood, quest plot. He surrounded it with greatness, especially special effects that for people who had been watching Star Trek just 10 years prior, were incredible.

OaktownBear said:

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Oak town said:

Part of what made the original trilogy good was that it didn't take itself too seriously as many of its predecessors in the sci-fi genre did and as some of its fans do.

My issue with the universe created in the original trilogy is that other than the battle between Vader and Luke and whether one can be turned to the dark or the light, the baddies are the height of evil and the goodies are the height of good. It takes until movie 7 before it can be contemplated that one storm trooper out of millions might question. There is no doubt that the empire is 100% evil. The republic is 100% good. (which again, leads to the question, why are so many willing to sign up to support and lay down their lives for pure evil?)

And come on. The philosophical underpinning of the movies is, there is a force. May it be with you. It is a quest movie. Plain and simple.

And this is where I really disagree with people about Luke's treatment here. Does it occur to anyone that yeah, a kid plucked off a backwater planet and basically told he is the hope for good in the galaxy might go off idealistically fighting for the cause. But that when he wins and the galaxy falls into hell anyway, and when he realizes "the force" has taken his father from him, and has taken his nephew from him and that there seems to always be someone willing to use the force for the dark side (and by the way, they seem to come from his family a lot) and that the result is that the galaxy is pretty much always oppressed and after 30 years of this shyte says "you know what? this force thing effing sucks". Anything else makes Luke an effing lobotomized dimwit. Frankly, it is about time someone questioned it. I'm surprised the galaxy hasn't rounded up every jedi and killed them and their entire families in an attempt to wipe out the scourge that constantly leads to misery.

Quite honestly, Luke's role in LOTJ is the best thing in the new series. It brings a reality that the original never had.

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I agree with the part I quoted above. well said, and summarizes my thought of this movie and the original movie ("the original trilogy good was that it didn't take itself too seriously"). The biggest thing I miss in this series now is the lack of a charismatic character like Han Solo.

OaktownBear said:

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But honestly, back to your point. Lucas was very much concerned with making a marketable movie. If he hadn't been, the big budget movie may never have become a thing because the studio would have lost its shirt. That was what made Star Wars so good. The ultimate entertainment value. Had he spent his time trying to "say" something, it would have been a disaster. I really don't see the great insights he imparted. The story line at base was a standard, Hollywood, quest plot. He surrounded it with greatness, especially special effects that for people who had been watching Star Trek just 10 years prior, were incredible.

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I think the movies do "say" something, but it's mostly simple and easily-understood themes about faith and heroism and what not. I don't mean that as a negative: I think when a movie is done well and accepted by a lot of people, those themes can become powerful in their simplicity. I also think that Lucas wanted his movie to have simple, powerful themes, given all of his obsession with Joseph Campbell and the Hero's Journey.

But over the years, the "legend" of Star Wars has grown, to the point where people now ascribe a lot more meaning and forethought to Lucas' approach than was ever originally there. This overwrought sense of importance is probably what brought about the dull, stilted prequel movies and resulted in Lucas wanting to sell off his creation. It also probably resulted in J.J. Abrams' very careful, fan-servicey approach to his Star Wars movie.

(All of this, by the way, is exactly what The Last Jedi is about, exploring our fealty to old legends and how it can hold us back.)