chalcidbear said:
In case anyone is interested, here is the Onion's take on the matter:
https://www.theonion.com/ohio-state-puts-urban-meyer-on-paid-secret-coaching-lea-1828059245
While you might be correct if Meyer coached at Cal, but the Onion version posted above probably is more accurate of what is really happening. TOSU football is a Billion Dollar investment, that no one in authority is going to let be jeopardized by an assistant coach that allegedly beats his wife. My suspicion is that the wife receives a big dollar settlement, withdraws her claims and doesn't cooperate with investigators. Call my a cynic.OaktownBear said:YuSeeBerkeley said:
I don't get why you would resort to personal attacks when I am merely expressing my opinions about something that ultimately does not matter. I am not an Ohio State or Urban Meyer fan. It really doesn't matter to me, but I will call out what I see as an injustice. Maybe the disconnect is that I do not deify college football coaches and believe them to be some sort of great moral authority. He's paid to win football games. Yes, he gets paid a lot, but so what? Is money everything in life? He's not a pastor or life guru entrusted with the responsibility of leading people's lives. His student athletes are there for a few years and wil either graduate or leave early for the pros.
I also think it's insulting to compare Courtney Smith to a child. Children are minors and lack legal capacity to act on their own. To equate Courtney with the Sandusky children implies that Courtney is incapable of reporting crimes herself, which is absurd.
I also think you guys are completely confusing Urban Meyer to the criminal justice system. I was not implying that Courtney Smith's ex-husband should escape punishment. Not at all. I absolutely agree that crimes must be punished. I just don't believe in vigilante justice.
Obviously, I am not changing anyone's mind, and you're not changing mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a Cal assistant coach walked up to a stranger on the street and beat him down, would you expect Cal to keep him. If not, why not given your position here? If it turned out that there was video evidence and Wilcox knew it was his guy but didn't report it, should Wilcox be punished? If yes, why given your opinion here? If yes, I wonder why you would view beating a family member as less heinous than a stranger.
If you still think Cal has no responsibility in this case, you are outside the norm. Most major companies background check employees. If you contract with these companies, they expect you to background check anyone doing work for them. They then expect you to report if you find out anyone assigned to do work for them has been accused of a crime. You are not necessarily expected to keep tabs, other than regular background checks, but if you find out about something you are expected to report. Further, knowingly keeping someone in staff that engages in violence opens you up to all sorts of legal liability if they commit violence on the job.
A boss who did what Meyer has done in most management jobs would be facing severe repercussions up to termination. Meyer's value is the only thing that might save him.
",,,training camp would be better served if he pretended to stay away during the inquiry... "GivemTheAxe said:chalcidbear said:
In case anyone is interested, here is the Onion's take on the matter:
https://www.theonion.com/ohio-state-puts-urban-meyer-on-paid-secret-coaching-lea-1828059245
I love the last line. Meyer will return only when the evidence clearly shows that the Buckeyes have lost one game.
This touches on an interesting point which Glenn Dickey used to bring up in his columns in the Chron some 40 yrs ago...25To20 said:
I look at this from the perspective of a manager. If one of my employees is accused of domestic violence, or any crime for that matter, and that crime did not directly victimize my company, I do not believe I have any responsibility to take action against that employee. Even if I personally witnessed the crime, I do not believe I have any responsibility short of the moral obligation to do what I can to stop the crime. Having said that, if the employee needs a month off to mount a defense to the charges, and only has a week's vacation on the books, I am probably going to terminate the employee since he is unavailable to do his job.
Unless Meyer's contract obligates him to a higher standard, I do not think it is fair to ask more from him than I would ask from myself or any manager.
If I was aware of credible evidence of criminal activity (except victimless crime), I would feel an ethical obligation to report it to law enforcement. That is just me, and I hold no one else to that standard.
He is obligated to be held to a higher standard under Title IX.25To20 said:
I look at this from the perspective of a manager. If one of my employees is accused of domestic violence, or any crime for that matter, and that crime did not directly victimize my company, I do not believe I have any responsibility to take action against that employee. Even if I personally witnessed the crime, I do not believe I have any responsibility short of the moral obligation to do what I can to stop the crime. Having said that, if the employee needs a month off to mount a defense to the charges, and only has a week's vacation on the books, I am probably going to terminate the employee since he is unavailable to do his job.
Unless Meyer's contract obligates him to a higher standard, I do not think it is fair to ask more from him than I would ask from myself or any manager.
If I was aware of credible evidence of criminal activity (except victimless crime), I would feel an ethical obligation to report it to law enforcement. That is just me, and I hold no one else to that standard.
25To20 said:
I look at this from the perspective of a manager. If one of my employees is accused of domestic violence, or any crime for that matter, and that crime did not directly victimize my company, I do not believe I have any responsibility to take action against that employee. Even if I personally witnessed the crime, I do not believe I have any responsibility short of the moral obligation to do what I can to stop the crime. Having said that, if the employee needs a month off to mount a defense to the charges, and only has a week's vacation on the books, I am probably going to terminate the employee since he is unavailable to do his job.
Unless Meyer's contract obligates him to a higher standard, I do not think it is fair to ask more from him than I would ask from myself or any manager.
If I was aware of credible evidence of criminal activity (except victimless crime), I would feel an ethical obligation to report it to law enforcement. That is just me, and I hold no one else to that standard.
I suspect that Title IX does not come into play where you are employed. That is a key issue in the Meyer case.25To20 said:
I look at this from the perspective of a manager. If one of my employees is accused of domestic violence, or any crime for that matter, and that crime did not directly victimize my company, I do not believe I have any responsibility to take action against that employee. Even if I personally witnessed the crime, I do not believe I have any responsibility short of the moral obligation to do what I can to stop the crime. Having said that, if the employee needs a month off to mount a defense to the charges, and only has a week's vacation on the books, I am probably going to terminate the employee since he is unavailable to do his job.
Unless Meyer's contract obligates him to a higher standard, I do not think it is fair to ask more from him than I would ask from myself or any manager.
If I was aware of credible evidence of criminal activity (except victimless crime), I would feel an ethical obligation to report it to law enforcement. That is just me, and I hold no one else to that standard.
YuSeeBerkeley said:
With all due respect to the collective wisdom of random people on Twitter, someone with just a slightly better idea of how everything actually happened has an opinion on the prospects of Meyer losing his job.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24278627
He must feel he is untouchable. Anyone else would have said I can't comment on an ongoing investigation.71Bear said:
Today, Meyer said the he "failed" during his press conference at the B10 meeting. He didn't fail. He lied. When did lying become failing? Geez, if this guy keeps his job.................
71Bear said:
Today, Meyer said the he "failed" during his press conference at the B10 meeting. He didn't fail. He lied. When did lying become failing? Geez, if this guy keeps his job.................
wifeisafurd said:While you might be correct if Meyer coached at Cal, but the Onion version posted above probably is more accurate of what is really happening. TOSU football is a Billion Dollar investment, that no one in authority is going to let be jeopardized by an assistant coach that allegedly beats his wife. My suspicion is that the wife receives a big dollar settlement, withdraws her claims and doesn't cooperate with investigators. Call my a cynic.OaktownBear said:YuSeeBerkeley said:
I don't get why you would resort to personal attacks when I am merely expressing my opinions about something that ultimately does not matter. I am not an Ohio State or Urban Meyer fan. It really doesn't matter to me, but I will call out what I see as an injustice. Maybe the disconnect is that I do not deify college football coaches and believe them to be some sort of great moral authority. He's paid to win football games. Yes, he gets paid a lot, but so what? Is money everything in life? He's not a pastor or life guru entrusted with the responsibility of leading people's lives. His student athletes are there for a few years and wil either graduate or leave early for the pros.
I also think it's insulting to compare Courtney Smith to a child. Children are minors and lack legal capacity to act on their own. To equate Courtney with the Sandusky children implies that Courtney is incapable of reporting crimes herself, which is absurd.
I also think you guys are completely confusing Urban Meyer to the criminal justice system. I was not implying that Courtney Smith's ex-husband should escape punishment. Not at all. I absolutely agree that crimes must be punished. I just don't believe in vigilante justice.
Obviously, I am not changing anyone's mind, and you're not changing mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a Cal assistant coach walked up to a stranger on the street and beat him down, would you expect Cal to keep him. If not, why not given your position here? If it turned out that there was video evidence and Wilcox knew it was his guy but didn't report it, should Wilcox be punished? If yes, why given your opinion here? If yes, I wonder why you would view beating a family member as less heinous than a stranger.
If you still think Cal has no responsibility in this case, you are outside the norm. Most major companies background check employees. If you contract with these companies, they expect you to background check anyone doing work for them. They then expect you to report if you find out anyone assigned to do work for them has been accused of a crime. You are not necessarily expected to keep tabs, other than regular background checks, but if you find out about something you are expected to report. Further, knowingly keeping someone in staff that engages in violence opens you up to all sorts of legal liability if they commit violence on the job.
A boss who did what Meyer has done in most management jobs would be facing severe repercussions up to termination. Meyer's value is the only thing that might save him.
Why should I or anyone else care what he thinks on the matter?YuSeeBerkeley said:
With all due respect to the collective wisdom of random people on Twitter, someone with just a slightly better idea of how everything actually happened has an opinion on the prospects of Meyer losing his job.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24278627
Your comparing a large corporation with an HR department and probably an employee handbook the size of Tedford's play book, to a football factory where the only thing people remember is how many wins you had? At TOSU, Meyer is more important than the school President. Your probably laughing at the Onion version, but my bet is TOSU football is not making any major decisions without Urban's approval, and he will be back formally after their first loss, if not sooner. They will buy the accuser off or find someway to make this go away before the season gets very old.OaktownBear said:wifeisafurd said:While you might be correct if Meyer coached at Cal, but the Onion version posted above probably is more accurate of what is really happening. TOSU football is a Billion Dollar investment, that no one in authority is going to let be jeopardized by an assistant coach that allegedly beats his wife. My suspicion is that the wife receives a big dollar settlement, withdraws her claims and doesn't cooperate with investigators. Call my a cynic.OaktownBear said:YuSeeBerkeley said:
I don't get why you would resort to personal attacks when I am merely expressing my opinions about something that ultimately does not matter. I am not an Ohio State or Urban Meyer fan. It really doesn't matter to me, but I will call out what I see as an injustice. Maybe the disconnect is that I do not deify college football coaches and believe them to be some sort of great moral authority. He's paid to win football games. Yes, he gets paid a lot, but so what? Is money everything in life? He's not a pastor or life guru entrusted with the responsibility of leading people's lives. His student athletes are there for a few years and wil either graduate or leave early for the pros.
I also think it's insulting to compare Courtney Smith to a child. Children are minors and lack legal capacity to act on their own. To equate Courtney with the Sandusky children implies that Courtney is incapable of reporting crimes herself, which is absurd.
I also think you guys are completely confusing Urban Meyer to the criminal justice system. I was not implying that Courtney Smith's ex-husband should escape punishment. Not at all. I absolutely agree that crimes must be punished. I just don't believe in vigilante justice.
Obviously, I am not changing anyone's mind, and you're not changing mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a Cal assistant coach walked up to a stranger on the street and beat him down, would you expect Cal to keep him. If not, why not given your position here? If it turned out that there was video evidence and Wilcox knew it was his guy but didn't report it, should Wilcox be punished? If yes, why given your opinion here? If yes, I wonder why you would view beating a family member as less heinous than a stranger.
If you still think Cal has no responsibility in this case, you are outside the norm. Most major companies background check employees. If you contract with these companies, they expect you to background check anyone doing work for them. They then expect you to report if you find out anyone assigned to do work for them has been accused of a crime. You are not necessarily expected to keep tabs, other than regular background checks, but if you find out about something you are expected to report. Further, knowingly keeping someone in staff that engages in violence opens you up to all sorts of legal liability if they commit violence on the job.
A boss who did what Meyer has done in most management jobs would be facing severe repercussions up to termination. Meyer's value is the only thing that might save him.
I think what you, 25to20, and just about everyone else here are missing is that in the business world, this is not considered a duty to the victim or a duty to society to be a good person. It is a duty to protect the employer and their employees. From the reputation hit, but most of all from the person engaging in criminal behavior off the job engaging in criminal behavior on the job, to the risk of those around them or to the resources of the company. People with a record don't get these types of jobs.
I'm not saying he has a legal duty as is possible with Title IX. I'm saying he'd be in deep trouble with most corporate employers, the outcome depending on the facts of the case and how important the boss is to his employer. To those who think a boss is not responsible for reporting a crime he is aware of by one of his employees, many if not most employers disagree. If you are a manager in a corporation, it would be seriously foolhardy not to report the incident to HR and let them handle.
wifeisafurd said:Your comparing a large corporation with an HR department and probably an employee handbook the size of Tedford's play book, to a football factory where the only thing people remember is how many wins you had? At TOSU, Meyer is more important than the school President. Your probably laughing at the Onion version, but my bet is TOSU football is not making any major decisions without Urban's approval, and he will be back formally after their first loss, if not sooner. They will buy the accuser off or find someway to make this go away before the season gets very old.OaktownBear said:wifeisafurd said:While you might be correct if Meyer coached at Cal, but the Onion version posted above probably is more accurate of what is really happening. TOSU football is a Billion Dollar investment, that no one in authority is going to let be jeopardized by an assistant coach that allegedly beats his wife. My suspicion is that the wife receives a big dollar settlement, withdraws her claims and doesn't cooperate with investigators. Call my a cynic.OaktownBear said:YuSeeBerkeley said:
I don't get why you would resort to personal attacks when I am merely expressing my opinions about something that ultimately does not matter. I am not an Ohio State or Urban Meyer fan. It really doesn't matter to me, but I will call out what I see as an injustice. Maybe the disconnect is that I do not deify college football coaches and believe them to be some sort of great moral authority. He's paid to win football games. Yes, he gets paid a lot, but so what? Is money everything in life? He's not a pastor or life guru entrusted with the responsibility of leading people's lives. His student athletes are there for a few years and wil either graduate or leave early for the pros.
I also think it's insulting to compare Courtney Smith to a child. Children are minors and lack legal capacity to act on their own. To equate Courtney with the Sandusky children implies that Courtney is incapable of reporting crimes herself, which is absurd.
I also think you guys are completely confusing Urban Meyer to the criminal justice system. I was not implying that Courtney Smith's ex-husband should escape punishment. Not at all. I absolutely agree that crimes must be punished. I just don't believe in vigilante justice.
Obviously, I am not changing anyone's mind, and you're not changing mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a Cal assistant coach walked up to a stranger on the street and beat him down, would you expect Cal to keep him. If not, why not given your position here? If it turned out that there was video evidence and Wilcox knew it was his guy but didn't report it, should Wilcox be punished? If yes, why given your opinion here? If yes, I wonder why you would view beating a family member as less heinous than a stranger.
If you still think Cal has no responsibility in this case, you are outside the norm. Most major companies background check employees. If you contract with these companies, they expect you to background check anyone doing work for them. They then expect you to report if you find out anyone assigned to do work for them has been accused of a crime. You are not necessarily expected to keep tabs, other than regular background checks, but if you find out about something you are expected to report. Further, knowingly keeping someone in staff that engages in violence opens you up to all sorts of legal liability if they commit violence on the job.
A boss who did what Meyer has done in most management jobs would be facing severe repercussions up to termination. Meyer's value is the only thing that might save him.
I think what you, 25to20, and just about everyone else here are missing is that in the business world, this is not considered a duty to the victim or a duty to society to be a good person. It is a duty to protect the employer and their employees. From the reputation hit, but most of all from the person engaging in criminal behavior off the job engaging in criminal behavior on the job, to the risk of those around them or to the resources of the company. People with a record don't get these types of jobs.
I'm not saying he has a legal duty as is possible with Title IX. I'm saying he'd be in deep trouble with most corporate employers, the outcome depending on the facts of the case and how important the boss is to his employer. To those who think a boss is not responsible for reporting a crime he is aware of by one of his employees, many if not most employers disagree. If you are a manager in a corporation, it would be seriously foolhardy not to report the incident to HR and let them handle.
Meyer's lawyered statement actually does not say he reported anything. It says he followed reporting protocols. Which makes one wonder if OSU just didn't have protocols in place in 2015 that required him to do anything that he didn't do.OaktownBear said:
I'm not sure yet whether Meyer nominally did anything wrong if he, as they seem to be saying now, reported it. Lying to the press probably isn't a big deal to OSU. I think the issue with these football coaches reporting is they have a lot more power than the people they are reporting to, so it seems fake. "I'm reporting because I'm supposed to, but we aren't going to do anything about this, so don't bother investigating unless you want to tick me off.
YuSeeBerkeley said:
Why should I care what random people on Twitter think, which is what is referenced in the post I was responding to? The guy is defending the man who fired him. The guy might be in denial, but if he gave Meyer the same dog and pony show and no charges were filed, is it really that egregious that Meyer held off on immediate termination back in 2015?
Huh? What crime? Who has accused Urban of committing a crime?YuSeeBerkeley said:
Done with this thread. I really don't care. I'll just say people should be held accountable for their own actions, not all of the actions of those who they influence. Smith can rot in jail for all I care. I just don't see how it is a crime his employer delayed in terminating him, which is something that is clearly being overlooked here. Meyer did terminate Smith, no? Where's the beef? I just don't see it. And my mind will not be changed by internet trolls and Twitter polls. The masses are stupid. It's how we ended up with Trump as president. This country is full of dumb people who are easily duped and easily swayed. I'm not saying all Trump voters are dumb. I'm saying the reason he got elected is because he duped a lot of dumb people. I do have high regard for people on this board, though. We are, after all, fellow Cal grads. It's ok for us to have a difference of opinion. Such is life. Go Bears!
I am.YuSeeBerkeley said:
This country is full of dumb people who are easily duped and easily swayed. I'm not saying all Trump voters are dumb.
He certainly didn't help his cause by lying about not knowing in a very public manner, then getting caught in the lie. People do get fired for stuff like this. If he were the University President, he'd likely be fired with much less fanfare.YuSeeBerkeley said:
It's hyperbole. Yes, I get that Urban Meyer is not under some criminal investigation, but people are demanding his head on a platter for not terminating the assistant coach who's accused of domestic violence back in 2015.
I can hear the conversation:YuSeeBerkeley said:
With all due respect to the collective wisdom of random people on Twitter, someone with just a slightly better idea of how everything actually happened has an opinion on the prospects of Meyer losing his job.
http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=24278627
concur 100%OaktownBear said:wifeisafurd said:Your comparing a large corporation with an HR department and probably an employee handbook the size of Tedford's play book, to a football factory where the only thing people remember is how many wins you had? At TOSU, Meyer is more important than the school President. Your probably laughing at the Onion version, but my bet is TOSU football is not making any major decisions without Urban's approval, and he will be back formally after their first loss, if not sooner. They will buy the accuser off or find someway to make this go away before the season gets very old.OaktownBear said:wifeisafurd said:While you might be correct if Meyer coached at Cal, but the Onion version posted above probably is more accurate of what is really happening. TOSU football is a Billion Dollar investment, that no one in authority is going to let be jeopardized by an assistant coach that allegedly beats his wife. My suspicion is that the wife receives a big dollar settlement, withdraws her claims and doesn't cooperate with investigators. Call my a cynic.OaktownBear said:YuSeeBerkeley said:
I don't get why you would resort to personal attacks when I am merely expressing my opinions about something that ultimately does not matter. I am not an Ohio State or Urban Meyer fan. It really doesn't matter to me, but I will call out what I see as an injustice. Maybe the disconnect is that I do not deify college football coaches and believe them to be some sort of great moral authority. He's paid to win football games. Yes, he gets paid a lot, but so what? Is money everything in life? He's not a pastor or life guru entrusted with the responsibility of leading people's lives. His student athletes are there for a few years and wil either graduate or leave early for the pros.
I also think it's insulting to compare Courtney Smith to a child. Children are minors and lack legal capacity to act on their own. To equate Courtney with the Sandusky children implies that Courtney is incapable of reporting crimes herself, which is absurd.
I also think you guys are completely confusing Urban Meyer to the criminal justice system. I was not implying that Courtney Smith's ex-husband should escape punishment. Not at all. I absolutely agree that crimes must be punished. I just don't believe in vigilante justice.
Obviously, I am not changing anyone's mind, and you're not changing mine. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
If a Cal assistant coach walked up to a stranger on the street and beat him down, would you expect Cal to keep him. If not, why not given your position here? If it turned out that there was video evidence and Wilcox knew it was his guy but didn't report it, should Wilcox be punished? If yes, why given your opinion here? If yes, I wonder why you would view beating a family member as less heinous than a stranger.
If you still think Cal has no responsibility in this case, you are outside the norm. Most major companies background check employees. If you contract with these companies, they expect you to background check anyone doing work for them. They then expect you to report if you find out anyone assigned to do work for them has been accused of a crime. You are not necessarily expected to keep tabs, other than regular background checks, but if you find out about something you are expected to report. Further, knowingly keeping someone in staff that engages in violence opens you up to all sorts of legal liability if they commit violence on the job.
A boss who did what Meyer has done in most management jobs would be facing severe repercussions up to termination. Meyer's value is the only thing that might save him.
I think what you, 25to20, and just about everyone else here are missing is that in the business world, this is not considered a duty to the victim or a duty to society to be a good person. It is a duty to protect the employer and their employees. From the reputation hit, but most of all from the person engaging in criminal behavior off the job engaging in criminal behavior on the job, to the risk of those around them or to the resources of the company. People with a record don't get these types of jobs.
I'm not saying he has a legal duty as is possible with Title IX. I'm saying he'd be in deep trouble with most corporate employers, the outcome depending on the facts of the case and how important the boss is to his employer. To those who think a boss is not responsible for reporting a crime he is aware of by one of his employees, many if not most employers disagree. If you are a manager in a corporation, it would be seriously foolhardy not to report the incident to HR and let them handle.
I think you and I may be agreeing but talking passed each other. My main point is in contradiction to YuSee and 25to20 who seem to believe this is an issue because this is a football coach and not a regular person in management. On the contrary, if he were a regular manager he absolutely would be considered to have a duty to his employer and at minimum would be dressed down if he didn't report to HR and would be at risk of termination. I think Meyer will skate because he is too important. (I actually at least implied this in my original post - of course if the offender is important he gets off. This would be true in the normal world as well). YuSee and 25 seem to think there is no obligation to report. Good luck with that.
Also, I guess it depends on how big you have to be to be a "big corporation", but plenty of businesses with employees in the hundreds have employee handbooks, codes of ethics, and HR presence. It can be outsourced pretty easily and frankly they are stupid if they don't have those things. You have to have these things if you want to work with any big corporations, finance companies, health companies, consumer facing companies, or government entities. Or if you want to work with someone who works with them as most of these companies require these contractual commitments to flow down to subcontractors. If you find out an employee has committed a crime and you don't report, you can be in breach of contract. If that employee actually does something, you may very well be looking at uncapped liability.
I'm not sure yet whether Meyer nominally did anything wrong if he, as they seem to be saying now, reported it. Lying to the press probably isn't a big deal to OSU. I think the issue with these football coaches reporting is they have a lot more power than the people they are reporting to, so it seems fake. "I'm reporting because I'm supposed to, but we aren't going to do anything about this, so don't bother investigating unless you want to tick me off.
