SFCity:

Morton straddled the eras--he played in 62-64.

Since we rarely give OL their props, I vote also for Proverb Jacobs.

Big C said:

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If Bartkowski deserves to be on the list, then why not Jared Goff?

If Tony G had never played in the NFL, nor played basketball, no way he makes this list. But of course, he did both of those things, so I get it.

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I agree about Tony G. I always thought David Lewis was a better tight end _at Cal_, at least as a pass catcher.

I did not watch their blocking closely.

UrsaMajor said:

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SFCity:

Morton straddled the eras--he played in 62-64.

Since we rarely give OL their props, I vote also for Proverb Jacobs.

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If only he had not returned that punt as a frosh...

blungld said:

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If the criteria is how dominant a player they were at Cal, not accolades they received or their legends or professional career, then my list (from 1982 on) would include Russel White, Andre Carter, Todd Stussie, Sean Dawkins, and Deltha O'Neal.

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Agree, as others noted there is an NFL bias in that list. Russel White should be on that list ahead of Lynch based purely on his contributions and performance at Cal.

Cal88, if only for that opening kickoff vs. Miami (it was Miami right?)

Stupid list is stupid!

No Big Ed Barbero...

NVGolfingBear said:

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Cal88, if only for that opening kickoff vs. Miami (it was Miami right?)

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@UCLA 1991, Russell battling the entire bruin D and the smog FTW.

http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

The list suffers from recency bias.

No Roy Riegels. ***?!?

This is like a list of the greatest Cal football players in 2075 omitting Marshawn Lynch.

You whipper snappers don't understand how great he was.

He played back in the days when we wore suits and ties and hats to games. He kept us entertained when that Furd was in the White House, destroying the country.

okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

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Not bad... It certainly reflects the entire history of the program thus giving it credibility as an "all-time" list.

okaydo said:

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The list suffers from recency bias.

No Roy Riegels. ***?!?

This is like a list of the greatest Cal football players in 2075 omitting Marshawn Lynch.

You whipper snappers don't understand how great he was.

He played back in the days when we wore suits and ties and hats to games. He kept us entertained when that Furd was in the White House, destroying the country.

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But it did list Benny Lom who was a key participant in Riegels' infamous play.....

71Bear said:

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okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

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Not bad... It certainly reflects the entire history of the program thus giving it credibility as an "all-time" list.

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Whoever wrote that blog (is it someone here?) is past due on his next blog post.

(Also, it ends after the 2006 season. Who else would be on the list if it was updated? DeSean? Cam? Mack? Goff? Weaver?)

71Bear said:

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okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/



Any list that has Joe giber but omits Pete Schabarum or Jim Monachino is suspect.

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Not bad... It certainly reflects the entire history of the program thus giving it credibility as an "all-time" list.

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okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

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Where's Jahvid Best, DeJax, Wayne Stewart, and ...

joe amos yaks said:

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okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

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Where's Jahvid Best, DeJax, Wayne Stewart, and ...

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See 3 posts above. This blogger's last post was in May 2007. How many yards had Jahvid run for Cal before May 2007? What was DeSean's most memorable moment? And did it happen before or after May 2007?

okaydo said:

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http://tightwad-hill.blogspot.com/

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The fact that Walter Gordon is # 43 just above Igber at #44 shows the bias against the players from eras gone by.
Gordon played 3 sports at Cal: on Championship Boxing and championship wrestling and football teams.
On the Andy Smith teams he played both Offensive Line and Defensive Line. He played EVERY position on BOTH lines.
At a time when racism was rife in sports he was only the second African American to be selected All American (after Paul Robeson).
In fact he was the first Cal player (white or black) to be selected All-American. (So he had to be a pretty darn good as a football player.)
No disrespect intended to Igber but no way in fairness is Gordon to be just one slot above Igber

I'm just impressed that Jackie Jensen became arguably the greatest Cal player after being a 2-star recruit on 247 with a fairly lackluster SPARQ rating in the camps.

TheSouseFamily said:

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I'm just impressed that Jackie Jensen became arguably the greatest Cal player after being a 2-star recruit on 247 with a fairly lackluster SPARQ rating in the camps.

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And zero social media presence.

I'm amazed that the PAC12 network did not recognize any player from Cal's 1937 Thunder team, arguably Cal's greatest team ever, where FIVE of the eleven starters were named CONSENSUS FIRST TEAM ALL-AMERICANS. Has any college football team ever done anything like that? And remember that those All-Americans had to play both offense and defense, and play both of them very well to be named Consensus First Team All-Amercan Not only that, but Vic Bottari, arguably the best player on the Thunder team, was not named a Consensus First Team All-American until the following year, 1938.

SFCityBear said:

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I'm amazed that the PAC12 network did not recognize any player from Cal's 1937 Thunder team, arguably Cal's greatest team ever, where FIVE of the eleven starters were named CONSENSUS FIRST TEAM ALL-AMERICANS. Has any college football team ever done anything like that? And remember that those All-Americans had to play both offense and defense, and play both of them very well to be named Consensus First Team All-Amercan Not only that, but Vic Bottari, arguably the best player on the Thunder team, was not named a Consensus First Team All-American until the following year, 1938.

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Imagine. Each of Those 5 players was deemed better than Bottari.

GivemTheAxe said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'm amazed that the PAC12 network did not recognize any player from Cal's 1937 Thunder team, arguably Cal's greatest team ever, where FIVE of the eleven starters were named CONSENSUS FIRST TEAM ALL-AMERICANS. Has any college football team ever done anything like that? And remember that those All-Americans had to play both offense and defense, and play both of them very well to be named Consensus First Team All-Amercan Not only that, but Vic Bottari, arguably the best player on the Thunder team, was not named a Consensus First Team All-American until the following year, 1938.

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Imagine. Each of Those 5 players was deemed better than Bottari.

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And he finished in the Top 10 in Heisman voting in 1937 despite no AA recognition. He was an amazing player....

GivemTheAxe said:

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SFCityBear said:

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I'm amazed that the PAC12 network did not recognize any player from Cal's 1937 Thunder team, arguably Cal's greatest team ever, where FIVE of the eleven starters were named CONSENSUS FIRST TEAM ALL-AMERICANS. Has any college football team ever done anything like that? And remember that those All-Americans had to play both offense and defense, and play both of them very well to be named Consensus First Team All-Amercan Not only that, but Vic Bottari, arguably the best player on the Thunder team, was not named a Consensus First Team All-American until the following year, 1938.

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Imagine. Each of Those 5 players was deemed better than Bottari.

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After digging deeper,I found that I made some mistakes. I need to make some corrections.

There were 10 official All-American teams in 1937, with players picked mostly by judges who were sportswriters, and 3 unofficial All-American teams, one (CE) where team captains from 30 universities were the judges, and another (CP) where 60+ prominent coaches did the judging, and a third, the Walter Camp Foundation (WC)

Fullback Sam Chapman was the only Consensus first team All-American from the Cal Thunder team, having been named on 6 of the 10 official teams, plus the CE and WC teams. He made 2nd team AA on two teams.

The others:

End Perry Schwartz: First team All-American (WC) and one other team
Guard Vard Stockton: First team on 3 official teams and one other, plus the CP team
Guard Hedwig: First team on the CE team (this came from Wikipedia, and is probably an error)
Center Bob Herwig made one official team, and was named 3rd team AA on two other teams
Quarterback Johnny Meek was named first team AA on the CE team and 3rd team on one other team
Halfback Vic Bottari was named 3rd team AA on one official team.

In 1938, Vic Bottari was named consensus First Team All-American, having made first team on 4 official teams, 5 unofficial teams, and 2nd team on one other team.

Chapman, Herwig, and Bottari are all in the College Football Hall of Fame

SFCityBear said:

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flounder said:

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there is a huge difference between greatest accomplishments and best players. very few pre war players could bring down marshawn or stay with desean.

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Don't bet on it. Modern defenders tackle with their hands, arms and helmets. The pre WWII players are going to hit you low with a shoulder. Les Richter played at Cal pre-Korean War and Matt Hazeltine played at Cal pre-Vietnam, and both had long NFL All-Star careers as linebackers. I'd bet that either one of these two-way players could bring down Marshawn Lynch. I've seen all three play, and all three were outstanding.


As for the speed of Jackson, you are probably right, as there was no need for pre-WWII defenders to have much speed. Defensive players were required to shed blockers and tackle powerful running backs, as it was a running game, with almost no passing. The Cal '37 Thunder team ran a single wing. The quarterback, John Meek, was a bruising blocking back, and rarely threw a pass. If the style of play in the 1930's was downfield passing, then no doubt the coaches would have recruited smaller, faster defensive backs, like today's speedsters. Also, Jackson is faster when on turf, and there was no turf in 1937. It was all grass, and some days rain and mud which slows the receivers down.

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SFCB, as almost always, I agree with your list. I believe Les Richter is the best player in Cal history. But nobody, ever, was called on to do all the things Paul Larson did.

UrsaMajor said:

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SFCity:

Morton straddled the eras--he played in 62-64.

Since we rarely give OL their props, I vote also for Proverb Jacobs.

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Thanks. I revised my list accordingly. There are others I must have missed. Cal has had so many great ones, a list of 50 is not long enough. Cal's problem may be we never seem to have enough of them together on one team. I sure have enjoyed seeing many of them in person.

wifeisafurd said:

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79 Bear said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

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flounder said:

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there is a huge difference between greatest accomplishments and best players. very few pre war players could bring down marshawn or stay with desean.

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Would Desean been faster than Jesse Owens if Desean had been born in 1913 and been playing football in the 1930s.
Would Jesse Owens been faster than Desean if he had been born in 1986 and had been playing football at the same time as Desean?
Answer to both is "unknown".

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If I recall, Jahvid beat Desean in a race to determine who was fastest.

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Would have loved to witness that race.

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for whatever it's worth, just listened to an aqib talib (current ram, college all american, sb champ and 5x probowler) called desean the fastest receiver he has ever guarded.

SFCityBear said:

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UrsaMajor said:

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SFCity:

Morton straddled the eras--he played in 62-64.

Since we rarely give OL their props, I vote also for Proverb Jacobs.

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Thanks. I revised my list accordingly. There are others I must have missed. Cal has had so many great ones, a list of 50 is not long enough. Cal's problem may be we never seem to have enough of them together on one team. I sure have enjoyed seeing many of them in person.

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Depth has long been a critical shortcoming in Cal football. The number of NFL players we've produced speaks to the frontline quality we've had but not since Pappy's glory years have we had depth of quality.

59bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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UrsaMajor said:

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SFCity:

Morton straddled the eras--he played in 62-64.

Since we rarely give OL their props, I vote also for Proverb Jacobs.

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Thanks. I revised my list accordingly. There are others I must have missed. Cal has had so many great ones, a list of 50 is not long enough. Cal's problem may be we never seem to have enough of them together on one team. I sure have enjoyed seeing many of them in person.

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Depth has long been a critical shortcoming in Cal football. The number of NFL players we've produced speaks to the frontline quality we've had but not since Pappy's glory years have we had depth of quality.

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Good point. However, players today play either offense or defense, usually not both. And there are so many specialty positions, that more frontline players are needed than just 22. Les Richter and Paul Larson were two-way players, but also did the placelicking. And Larson also returned punts and kickoffs. Many special teams players today are not first string on either offense or defense. The players of long ago had to have many more skills than the players of today. The players who backed up a frontline player in Pappy's heyday had to have more skills than the backup players of today, and at least be able to play both offense and defense. And they needed to have more stamina than today, because if a starter got hurt, they had to replace him and play every down, offense and defense with no rest, until the starter came back in, or the game ended.

I'm not arguing that the players of Pappy's day were better football players, but they were more complete players, with at least two or more positions to play. Not only that, some of them were playing two or more sports, like Jackie Jensen and Joe Kapp, There are some players today who are talented enough to do that as well, but I think the football players of Pappy's day were really complete players and athletes. They played for the competition, the fun of it, and were not led by the lure of pro sports to specialize in playing one position in one sport.

flounder said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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79 Bear said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

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flounder said:

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there is a huge difference between greatest accomplishments and best players. very few pre war players could bring down marshawn or stay with desean.

---

Would Desean been faster than Jesse Owens if Desean had been born in 1913 and been playing football in the 1930s.
Would Jesse Owens been faster than Desean if he had been born in 1986 and had been playing football at the same time as Desean?
Answer to both is "unknown".

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If I recall, Jahvid beat Desean in a race to determine who was fastest.

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Would have loved to witness that race.

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for whatever it's worth, just listened to an aqib talib (current ram, college all american, sb champ and 5x probowler) called desean the fastest receiver he has ever guarded.

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DeSean's last year for us (Jahvid's soph year?) I posted here that I'd pay to see the two of them race. DJ had unbelievable "football speed". Jahvid also had the football speed, but also had the "sprinter's speed" of a track guy.

For so many seasons -- let's say post-Wesley Walker -- we had years and years where nobody had anything CLOSE to that kind of speed... and then we get those two in, basically, the same era. Probably two of the fastest 100 guys to ever play the game, anywhere. Those were the days. Nothing really like that since, either (except for Bigelow's one game at tOSU). Sigh...

Actually, two-way football was suspended during WWII and re-instituted in 1953. I know Jensen punted, and may have played some "D", but if so, it wasn't because of rules as 2 platoon football existed from '41-'52. Under the rules of the era I was at Cal (1954-59) a player removed from the game could not re-enter in the same quarter in which he was removed. The best 2-way players of my first years in Berkeley...Larson, Hazletine, Hal Norris.. all started their Cal careers as frosh on the defensive side of the ball before the rule change took effect.

joe amos yaks said:

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Yes, I think Chapman was released by the Philly A's in 1951, and like many players went to a PCL team (Oakland Oaks) and finished professional career. Many BIG names in the PCL in the early 1950's.

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Great times in the old PCL. Players on their way up, players on their way down. Didn't Jackie Jensen also play for the Oaks (and is he the one who was afraid to fly so it limited his major league career, although then the majors were all Mississippi and east).

I believe Casey Stengel managed the Oaks at some point as well. Had a good friend who was the son of Jimmy Moran with the SF Seals. In those days on Sunday, you would go to game one in the AM at Seals Stadium on 16th and Bryant and hop on the electric train for game 2 in Emeryville. Did that more than once.

Big C said:

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flounder said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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79 Bear said:

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GivemTheAxe said:

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flounder said:

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there is a huge difference between greatest accomplishments and best players. very few pre war players could bring down marshawn or stay with desean.

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Would Desean been faster than Jesse Owens if Desean had been born in 1913 and been playing football in the 1930s.
Would Jesse Owens been faster than Desean if he had been born in 1986 and had been playing football at the same time as Desean?
Answer to both is "unknown".

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If I recall, Jahvid beat Desean in a race to determine who was fastest.

---

Would have loved to witness that race.

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for whatever it's worth, just listened to an aqib talib (current ram, college all american, sb champ and 5x probowler) called desean the fastest receiver he has ever guarded.

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DeSean's last year for us (Jahvid's soph year?) I posted here that I'd pay to see the two of them race. DJ had unbelievable "football speed". Jahvid also had the football speed, but also had the "sprinter's speed" of a track guy.

For so many seasons -- let's say post-Wesley Walker -- we had years and years where nobody had anything CLOSE to that kind of speed... and then we get those two in, basically, the same era. Probably two of the fastest 100 guys to ever play the game, anywhere. Those were the days. Nothing really like that since, either (except for Bigelow's one game at tOSU). Sigh...

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We did have Isaac Curtis (football and T&F) for a few years (1970-71). He had World class speed in the sprints, and at RB he was too fast for our OL to lead block for him so Coach Wilsey switched him to WR.

One of the problems in trying to establish which football player was faster is that some of them never ran track, officially, so there are few official records for players like Desean Jackson and Wesley Walker. There are some 40 yard dash recorded times for most football players, so at least we can compare those. A second problem is that track times are recorded on track surfaces of different composition from era to era, and very different from football 40 yard dash races, where the players wear cleats and run on grass. Another problem is that times are accurate to 1/100th of a second now, as opposed to 40-50 years ago when times were only accurate to 1/10th of a second, and wind was not taken into account as much as it is today. Here a some records of former Cal players:

Desean Jackson ran a 4.35 second 40 yard dash in 2008 at the NFL Draft Combine. He is reported to have run a 10.5 second 100 meter dash, but I could find no official source for that.

Jahvid Best was both a track man and a football player. He ran a 4.35 second official 40 yard dash, and a 4.33 second unofficial one. In track, Jahvid Best was a world class 100 meter sprinter, and ran an official 10.36 second time as a high school senior in 2007. He also ran a 10.31 second wind assisted time in 2007, a 10.26 wind-assisted time in 2015, and an official 10.35 second time in his heat in the 2016 Olympics, finishing in 7th place behind Usain Bolt, who ran 10.07 seconds. Best also owns an official time in the 200 meters of 20.65 seconds.

Thanks to Big C for bringing up Wesley Walker. Walker apparently did not run track officially, but ran an official 4.38 second 40 yard dash while with the Jets, and I could find no other times for him.

Thanks to Joe Amos Yaks for bringing up Isaac Curtis. He played at Cal only a couple of years before Wesley Walker and ought to be considered in the discussion. Curtis ran a 4.4 second official 40 yard dash time in 1973, and 12 years later in 1985, he ran an official time of 4.5 seconds. As a member of the Cal track team, Curtis recorded an official time for 100 yards of 9.3 seconds, and finished 2nd in the 1972 NCAA 100 meters to Cal's own Eddie Hart, perhaps the best sprinter in the world at the time, with both men timed in 9.4 seconds. Curtis also ran an official time of 20.7 seconds in the 200 meters in 1970.

Getting back to the original question of who was faster, Jackson or Best, it is hard to answer because there is little measurable data on Jackson. Based on their 40 yard times, they are evenly matched. Curtis definitely should be in the conversation as his times were only a shade behind Eddie Hart on the track, and if there were more data on Wesley Walker, he would likely be in the conversation as well.

Finally, a word on that NCAA Championship in 1972. Cal had not won an NCAA track and field title in 50 years. In 1972, Hart and Curtis finished 1-2 in the 100 yard dash, Curtis finished 4th in the 220 yard dash, and they both were on the 440 yard relay team that won a Gold Medal. Together with a few other Cal athletes who placed in different events, Cal scored enough points and won the NCAA Championship. Later that year, during football season, it was determined that Curtis did not take the SAT exam under appropriate circumstances, probably the football coaching staff's fault, and the NCAA title and all the records were vacated and taken away from Cal and the athletes. A black day for Cal track and field fans, and Cal fans in general.

Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

Richmondbear2 said:

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Joe Kapp?

Career totals of 7 TD passes and 28 interceptions.

Brutal. Embarassing numbers. I know all about the bravado, courage, yadda yadda but he doesn't deserve to be on this list

Joe was the leading passer, leading rusher, also played defense. He carried a team of 'students', not football players, to the Rose Bowl. The following year, the same team, without, won only 2 games. Only 6 of the interceptions were during his last year. I'd say Kapp deserves to be on the list, only higher.

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hanky1 said:

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Here is my list of greatest Cal players since 1998. Why 1998? Because that's when I became a Cal fan in HIgh School.

1. Marshawn
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Alex Mack
4. Andre Carter
5. Desean Jackson
6. Donte Hughes
7. Zach Follet
8. Geoff MacArthur
9. Ryan O'Callaghan
10. Mychal Kendricks
11. Desmond Bishop
12. Nick Harris

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Best not on your list?