According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

Come on let's be a bit more positive. How about "Cal Basketball - Mediocre at best!"

fat_slice said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

Come on let's be a bit more positive. How about "Cal Basketball - Mediocre at best!"

---

Cal Basketball, shooting for mediocrity! Pun intended

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre and revisit the issue in 13 months.

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

---

Heck, we finished with enough of a flurry in 2018-19 to where there was serious talk of retaining Wyking Jones!

The difference is, this year we have been competitive throughout the season.

No, I was not able to keep a straight face while I typed that last sentence. I'm even chortling right now!

BeachedBear said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

---

If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

---

I vehemently argued for Jones' firing. I'm being consistent based on results. I'm challenging the universal narrative of the twelve of you that there has been significant improvement. The data says otherwise.

OaktownBear said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

---

If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

---

I vehemently argued for Jones' firing. I'm being consistent based on results. I'm challenging the universal narrative of the twelve of you that there has been significant improvement. The data says otherwise.

---

I know. Just teasing ya.

We need a good big man that can defend the muddle. We dont have one.

OaktownBear said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

---

If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

---

I vehemently argued for Jones' firing. I'm being consistent based on results. I'm challenging the universal narrative of the twelve of you that there has been significant improvement. The data says otherwise.

---

Before, we needed to define "competitive". Now we need to define "significant"! This thread could go on a while!

BeachedBear said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

---

If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

---

The twelve of us need to be immortalized with some sort of name! Apostles? Eggs? What else comes in twelves?

oskidunker said:

---

We need a good big man that can defend the muddle. We dont have one.

---

We have a lot of people here who are very good at defending the muddle

The thing with lack of fan interest, including lack of posts in this forum, has to at least in some part be due to no ability to attend games in person. Speaking for myself, as a season ticket holder I get to most games, which gets me personally invested in the team and individual players--good or bad.

These days, I have mostly lost interest. I have a hard time watching the tv games for some reason, maybe the horrible camera angle influences that, but also I just don't feel an affinity for the team and players without having been there at games in person.

The camera angle is horrible, especially when you compare with other broadcasts. What exactly is the problem? Does Calbrefuse to allow a camera on a lower level? If so, why? Has anyone written Knowlton about this?

I guess my view is that Martin's last year, and the two years under Jones, were not just a dumpster fire, but tires burning underground. Given those three years, it seems like you have to give Fox three years to try and climb out of the hole. He's only in year two, and that doesn't count what weight can be put on this season regarding the COVID impacts.

I think a real measure will be the two games against Stanford next week, since hopefully by then Bradley will be back at full strength, which means we'll finally have the complete healthy line-up that was projected at the start of the season.

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

BeachedBear said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

OaktownBear said:

---

Big C said:

---

NathanAllen said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

calumnus said:

---

According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

---

I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

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Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

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So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

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If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

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The twelve us need to be immortalized with some sort of name! Apostles? Eggs? What else comes in twelves?

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12 Angry Men

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That shoe fits! If we are ever counted and it turns out there are more than twelve of us (or less, lol), it could be like the Big Ten, where the number doesn't necessarily correspond.

Just discussing this makes me even angrier!

oskidunker said:

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The camera angle is horrible, especially when you compare with other broadcasts. What exactly is the problem? Does Calbrefuse to allow a camera on a lower level? If so, why? Has anyone written Knowlton about this?

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One would think and hope that one of the reporters that works for this site could run that camera height question by Knowlton. But, the camera height has been a known issue for YEARS on this board.

One can only assume that the people who run Cal basketball are so incompetent that they don't even appreciate how important the TV viewing experience is in building the program. And, yes, I am suggesting that an effing jackhammer should be taken to the concrete if that is what is necessary to put the camera on a platform at the proper height.

Chapman_is_Gone said:

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oskidunker said:

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The camera angle is horrible, especially when you compare with other broadcasts. What exactly is the problem? Does Calbrefuse to allow a camera on a lower level? If so, why? Has anyone written Knowlton about this?

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One would think and hope that one of the reporters that works for this site could run that camera height question by Knowlton. But, the camera height has been a known issue for YEARS on this board.

One can only assume that the people who run Cal basketball are so incompetent that they don't even appreciate how important the TV viewing experience is in building the program. And, yes, I am suggesting that an effing jackhammer should be taken to the concrete if that is what is necessary to put the camera on a platform at the proper height.

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It would probably block some high cost seats that they would rather sell.

NathanAllen said:

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Just to add a quick bit to this, Cal is the type of program that should absolutely expect to be a top-100 Kenpom team every single season. It's OK to be frustrated when it's not. But when the program spent two years ranked in the 240-ish range, it's going to take some time to dig out of that. So far, they've shown consistent improvements towards getting back to the top-100 where it should be. The only way to quickly get out of the type of hole this program was in would be to recruit a top-five recruiting class full of five- and four-stars. That's not very realistic for Fox and Cal. It's going to be a slower build. But so far, that build is happening. The only question I have is where and when will it plateau.

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I think just one 5 star recruit can make a huge difference. Just one. There doesn't have to be a class full of them.

Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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NathanAllen said:

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dimitrig said:

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calumnus said:

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According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

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God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

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If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

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I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

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If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

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The twelve of us need to be immortalized with some sort of name! Apostles? Eggs? What else comes in twelves?

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Beer.

Cal is good enough right now to beat any team in this league, even though almost any win would be an upset. We are getting a little closer.

I dont see it. We don't have good enough big men to do that. End of story.

...barely noticeable

Civil Bear said:

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OaktownBear said:

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BeachedBear said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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OaktownBear said:

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Big C said:

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NathanAllen said:

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dimitrig said:

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calumnus said:

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According to Sagarin's algorithms based on all the data being treated equally, Cal is #144 in Predictor and #143 in Golden Mean. This is #12 in the PAC-12.

However, In the model that weights more recent data more heavily, Recent, Cal is #133 showing we have improved somewhat as the season has progressed thus far. Cal is #9 in the PAC-12 in Recent, not so much because of Cal's improvement, but the collapse of Arizona State (#164), Washington State (#161), and Washington (#162).

Good shot at another win coming up

---

God, we are even more horrible than I thought.

And what happened to the Pac-12 in general!?

---

If you want to feel better, go back and look where Cal was in 2018 and 2019.

As for the conference, it has really slid over the past decade. I'm not really sure why. Outside of California, it's not super talent-rich compared to other parts of the country, but teams like Oregon, Arizona, UCLA, UW, and USC always seem to bring in a lot of new talent each year. Perhaps someone else has better insights, but for whatever reasons, Pac-12 schools have consistently underperformed compared to their Power 5 conference counterparts over the past 10 years or so.

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I was going to say... maybe more horrible than dimitrig thought, but less horrible than before. If Fox is looking for a marketing slogan, perhaps we've stumbled onto something: "Cal Basketball -- Less and less horrible!"

Seriously, we were getting BLOWN OUT by nobodies. And our rankings... I didn't even know there were that many teams! At least we're trending up.

---

In Jones' last year we were 3-15 in conference averaging losing by 10.5 points and we were virtually unanimous Jones had to go. So far this year we are 2-8 in conference averaging losing by 8.5 points. What a difference 2 points makes.

Edit to add:

It is the middle of the conference season. Over the last 43 hours on the primary fan board for Cal basketball there have been exactly 6 posts about the current Cal basketball team. 12 if you count a discussion regarding the cable providers the games are on.

Anyone see a problem?

---

Apples to apples: Jones' last year, ten games in to conference, we were 0-10, were we not? Notably lower national rankings, too.

Still, I get the point: We're still not very good and fan interest is at a low ebb. At this point, I don't know what else to do except to wait until the incremental improvement plateaus and then make a change. In the meantime, let's enjoy the journey up to mediocre!

---

So just remember then that we finished the season very strong with 3 wins in a row including over a ranked team and a close loss in the PAC 12 tournament. I personally wouldn't look at it that way, but Cal finished 2019 a much better team than it started.

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If you really want to bring Jones back, I think he's available - give him a call. Otherwise, not sure why you keep picking at that scab. The twelve of us still posting haven't forgotten.

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I vehemently argued for Jones' firing. I'm being consistent based on results. I'm challenging the universal narrative of the twelve of you that there has been significant improvement. The data says otherwise.

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How very SFCity of you to cherrypick data and not use your eyes. Anyone watching can see the Bears are appreciably better at this point in the season with less talent. This from a 30-yr season ticket holder that gave them up under Jones and didn't care eitherway if he got fired before his contract expired, but can now stomach watching the games again. They have actually reached Div I mediocracy at this point. I fully understand your hesitancy to potentially get drawn back in; but if you have truly given up, then why are you even here?

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I disagree with who is channeling SFCity here. His problem isn't using cherrypicked data over his eyes. I think you have a number of City-esque statements.

1. They have reached Div I mediocrity. This one is classic SFCity material. So, yes. Technically they are Division I mediocre. There are 350 Division I teams. You full well know that Power conference teams do not measure themselves against mid majors any more than FBS teams measure themselves against FCS in football. Fact is, our Sagarin is last in conference. We are last out of the following conferences:

Pac-12 - 12 teams
ACC - 15 teams
Big East - 11 teams
Big 10 - 14 teams
Big 12 - 10 teams
SEC - 14 teams

There are two teams in the American Athletic Conference that are worse than us. Out of 11.

That is our competition. Not all of DI. 7 conferences. We are 85th out of 87 teams.

2. Another City-esque argument. For some reason we are supposed to ignore that the rest of the season in 2019 happened. Because for some reason we supposed to compare the exact date of each season. Well, my preference is to measure at the end of the season, and that is what we will do. But the pronouncements of the 12 are already coming in that we are much improved. That is very preliminary, but if we are going to do that comparison now, .200 against conference teams (and I'm not counting the loss to OSU "nonconference"), is not a lot better than .167. 11th or 12th place (depending how you measure) is not a lot better than 12th. 2 points shaved off average margin of loss is not a lot better. 85 out of 87 is not a lot better.

3. Note, I didn't say we weren't better. We have improved a little on what was a terrible season. That is reflected in the Sagarin that Nathan posted to prove we had improved. Wyking Jones was the worst coach in America. Mark Fox is not. Keith Gilbertson being better than Tom Holmoe does not mean I want Keith Gilbertson

4. I don't trust "eyes". Anyone who has read Moneyball should know that. Eyes belong to humans who make emotional decisions based on preferences that are irrelevant to the purpose. I don't care if the games are "watchable". Because Cal fans "eyes" tend to prefer watching a team of 5 foot 4 guys going 0-18 running an organized offense where they pass three times before they shoot, than watching a team of good players going 6-12 running a disorganized offense. I don't. I know Fox's decidedly average game day coaching is decidedly better than Jones' decidedly bad game day coaching. However, there are many facets to coaching and he is below average at best at everything else including attributes that a coach at Cal really needs to excel at have any chance

5. If we are going to use "eyes", if you think this team is better than Cal was at the end of 2019, I think you stopped watching. The team that beat a ranked opponent, won three in a row, and as a huge underdog lost by 4 in the conference tournament to a team that went to the championship is better to my eyes than this year's team. Cal improved an unusual amount over the last 10 games of the season that year, partially with improvement in Vanover's game.

6. Wyking Jones inherited an incredibly crappy roster. I didn't see that as an excuse for the obvious coaching issues. But he had just started to get the roster to serviceable as was evident in the end of 2019. Then we hired a coach who immediately lost most of the best parts of the roster. So when you start with a crappy roster because you lost most of the best guys, I don't see that as an excuse for being where we are now. I'm just confused why watchable is the standard now. I don't see that this team is in any better position to improve in the coming years than it was in 2019. I expect us to be better next year assuming everyone comes back, just as I expected that at the end of 2019. Now as then I do not see what anyone is smoking if they see any timeline that gets us to even 4th place.

7. While I have given up hope until Cal pulls its head out of its ass, I think decades of fandom makes it okay for me to hope and lobby for Cal to pull its head out of its ass. I have specifically not posted a lot. I did not take the bait of City and others acting like they won an argument when Cal actually won a game, because I firmly believe all of you ought to be happy when Cal wins, lord knows it doesn't come along often, and I'm not going step on that. I do reserve the right to once in a while take issue with people being thrilled with a watchable last place. Frankly, my posts every couple weeks are only standing out because everyone is gone. When Holmoe was this bad, there were like a 100 negative posts a day. When Dykes was this bad, there were like a 100 negative posts a day. When Braun wasn't nearly this bad, there were like 100 negative posts a day. When Tedford still had a winning record there were like 100 posts a day. Cal basketball fandom is approaching the Friends and Family plan. It is a pretty bad situation that no one cares enough to be upset.