Chapman_is_Gone said:

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Dare I ask, who here amongst us is a Fox Pumper?

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NathanAllen said:

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Not that this Missouri team should be the gold standard it is flawed, to be sure. But it's a team that's knocked off three top-10 teams this year and something that I think could be achievable with Fox. It's something that Cal could get to sooner rather than later, in my opinion.

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71Bear said:

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Fox isn't the issue. He is an innocent victim in this mess. The culprit is Knowlton. He failed to do any due diligence regarding the hire. He farmed everything out to an agency whose only interest was placing "their guy" in the head coaching position regardless of his ability to turn the program around.

Why does anyone here think that Knowlton won't do the same thing again once Fox is inevitably fired? The next guy will also be a retread that some agency is pushing. The only way out of this situation is turn the hiring decision over to an team of individuals that is willing to put some effort into the process instead of subcontracting the decision to a group that does not have Cal's best interests at heart.

It is all about putting together a team of men and women that understand Cal, is aware of the unique challenges the coach will face, and is willing to do the hard work of finding the right person for the job.

Are we confident that will happen? Nope. Will we continue to see a substandard program on the floor every game? Yep.

In summary, Knowlton is the problem not Fox.

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stu said:

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NathanAllen said:

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Not that this Missouri team should be the gold standard it is flawed, to be sure. But it's a team that's knocked off three top-10 teams this year and something that I think could be achievable with Fox. It's something that Cal could get to sooner rather than later, in my opinion.

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Cal under Fox may eventually beat some top-10 teams but I'm not expecting that to happen any time soon. My opinion is based on our recruiting and player development trajectory.

When Fox came in he retained 6 players and 2 recruits from the previous staff: Austin, Anticevich, Harris-Dyson, Bradley, Kelly, Gordon, Brown, and Thorpe. IMHO Austin improved a great deal, Bradley and Kelly have improved as I expected, it's too soon to say much about Brown and Thorpe, and the other two left. With Austin graduated that leaves just 1 very good and 2 solid veterans who look to me like contributors now or in the near future.

So far Fox has brought in 3 grad transfers and 3 international freshies. I don't see any of the grad transfers helping us beat top-10 teams and I'm not really expecting any of the international players to rise to that level.

Fox has recruited 5 USA freshies, 2 for 2020 and 3 for 2021. I've only seen 1 of them play any significant time and I like what I see. If most or all of them turn out to be good players then we'll have something going. However they're not 5-stars so I think they'll need some time to develop and we'll still have to address issues at PG and C. So I don't think we'll be beating top-10 teams for at least a few more years.

In contrast our women recruited 4 freshies (1 international) in Coach Smith's first year and 6 freshies (2 international) in her second. The USA freshies average about 4 stars and 2 of the international freshies came in ready to play. With no upperclass players and a bunch of injuries this season has been really tough but I think they're on track to be very good as soon as next season. The coaching is there, last season playing mostly 4 freshies and 1 senior they took #10 UCLA to overtime and beat #13 Arizona.

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Big C said:

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71Bear said:

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Fox isn't the issue. He is an innocent victim in this mess. The culprit is Knowlton. He failed to do any due diligence regarding the hire. He farmed everything out to an agency whose only interest was placing "their guy" in the head coaching position regardless of his ability to turn the program around.

Why does anyone here think that Knowlton won't do the same thing again once Fox is inevitably fired? The next guy will also be a retread that some agency is pushing. The only way out of this situation is turn the hiring decision over to an team of individuals that is willing to put some effort into the process instead of subcontracting the decision to a group that does not have Cal's best interests at heart.

It is all about putting together a team of men and women that understand Cal, is aware of the unique challenges the coach will face, and is willing to do the hard work of finding the right person for the job.

Are we confident that will happen? Nope. Will we continue to see a substandard program on the floor every game? Yep.

In summary, Knowlton is the problem not Fox.

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This is true, but it is only half the issue. The other half is that we are not supporting MBB by having a dedicated practice facility, unlike almost all other major programs. Not that Cuonzo Martin wasn't going to leave anyway (or that he was the world's greatest coach), but he certainly did not feel supported on that issue (and other issues, as well).

There is a valid perception out there that we are not really serious about trying to win. So when we're trying to sell Cal to a recruit, or to a potential coach, it's a tough sell. I don't think Knowlton (or his search firm) selected the best coach, but it's not like there were a bunch of established coaches willing to come here.

On top of that, here is a guy like me, complaining on a message board, but am I willing to help pay for said practice facility? No I am not. One season ticket and a lot of BI posts amounts to the the extent of my commitment.

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HoopDreams said:

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didn't fox recruit for 2019 too (even though he came in late). I think 2K is one of his recruits

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stu said:

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HoopDreams said:

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didn't fox recruit for 2019 too (even though he came in late). I think 2K is one of his recruits

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Yes. Kuany is 1 of the 3 international freshies (including Thiemann and Klonaris) I mentioned. Maybe I shouldn't have included Kuany in that group since he did play some HS ball in the USA.

Either way my point is I think Fox's early recruits will graduate quickly or develop slowly so it will take some time for us to become competitive.

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HoopDreams said:

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I was kinda thrown off by your comment, "I'm not really expecting any of the international players to rise to that level."
I'm a little unclear what 'that level' is, but I think 2K has potential

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Quote:

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... We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

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calumnus said:

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In Braun's last year we finished second to last. Monty took that team, minus Anderson, and finished 3rd in his first year and 1st in his second going to the NCAA tournament both years.

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NathanAllen said:

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calumnus said:

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In Braun's last year we finished second to last. Monty took that team, minus Anderson, and finished 3rd in his first year and 1st in his second going to the NCAA tournament both years.

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Yeah, but Fox isn't Monty, Braun isn't Wyking Jones, and Cal's program was vastly different at the end of Braun's tenure compared to Jones's.

First, Monty took Stanford to NCAA Tournament appearances all eight seasons he was the head coach there, and one at least one game in the Tournament each year. He also had a Final Four appearance, as well as an Elite Eight and Sweet 16 appearances. In 14 seasons, Fox has taken five teams to the NCAA Tournament (three at Nevada, two at UGA). He's won two NCAA Tournament games total. I think this was your point, but so far, Fox doesn't have the coaching achievements or chops that Monty had coming to Cal.

Yes, Braun's last team was second to last in the Pac-10, but that was an entirely different Pac-10 than what we've seen recently. It was the best league in the nation that year. It had five (half) teams make the NCAA Tournament and another three make it to the NIT (including Cal). Hell, UCLA had Kevin Love and Russell Westbrook on its team that year and made it to the Final Four. Stanford and Wazzu made it to the Sweet 16.

Jones's last year needed an unlikely three-game winning streak in the last three games to get its only three wins in the league, in a league that ranked seventh in the country in KenPom's conference standings. That Pac-12 league had three teams make it to the NCAA Tournament, all as a nine-seed or lower, none of which made it past the Sweet-16.

I think your point that Monty was a better coach than Fox is objectively true based on wins and losses. But there's a lot of context to also consider. Here's another way of putting it: Jones left teams that finished No. 244 and No. 241 in KenPom, Braun's last two teams finished No. 78 and No. 67. Fox was left a dumpster fire, and objectively one of the worst Power Conference programs in recent history.

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Bear8995 said:

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I've been thinking a lot about how we got here.

When Fox got here, he was just trying to get bodies to play. Vanover, Sueing and McNeill left and they would have represented 3 of the 5 starting positions had they stayed. Anticevich was returning. Austin, Kelly and Bradley were coming in/becoming eligible. The next 3 best players were JHD, Roman Davis and Jacobi Gordon, not really Pac 12 players. We were in trouble.

So he grabbed Brown (we needed a point guard). He got Kareem South as a one year rental (we needed outside shooting). He got KK, an athletic wing with potential (probably worth the gamble). Thiemann and Thorpe (good to have some big bodies). And finally Klonaras (looked good enough on tape to take a chance).

Young team but not a good outside shooting team. We needed that to improve. He slowed the game down, got Paris to become more of a passer and we showed signs of life towards the end of last season.

We lose South and Austin and in the search for some long distance shooters, he grabs Foreman and Betley. We had some success with Mullins so Betley made sense and Foreman could play PG so he was a hedge if Hyder couldn't play. He also gets Bowser and Celestine. Longer, athletic wings.

Then we have a bit of bad luck (and trust me, I HATE making excuses). COVID protocols. We lose 2 weeks of practice. Bradley gets hurt not once, but twice, then gets sick in teh past 2 weeks missing practice all week. I still don't think he is 100%. Grant has his appendix burst. He's out for 4 weeks. Losing Bradley twice (not to mention him being sick recently) especially hurts because the team can never seem to gain any continuity. That reflects in our inconsistent play from game to game and even within games.

Betley turns out to be a heady player, but can't shoot as well when he has to hurry his shot against more athletic competition. Same with Foreman. Both are liabilities defensively. Klonaras, KK and Thiemann get caught overseas and don't progress as much as they normally would under normal circumstances. Celestine is hurt for a good portion of the start of the season. Bowser would have ideally redshirted to gain some muscle.

In short, while other teams have been affected by the pandemic, it really hurt us when you factor in the injuries and how our team is made up with the number of foreign players we have. Switching lineups so often has made it difficult for us to establish any kind of continuity. I get it since we are losing and Fox feels the need to mix things up. But I think it has hindered our ability to execute at a higher level than we are seeing now.

The team needs to improve in just about every area. Rebounding. Defense. Shooting. Taking care of the ball (turnovers).

Next year, we have Roberson, Alajiki and Anyanwu coming in. Judging by Fox's reaction to Betley coming out of today's game, I'm guessing he doesn't come back. I think Betley also realizes that he is playing in a league over his head a bit. I would guess that Klonaras will move on at some point. Can't be fun sitting on the bench. Hopefully we can get another point guard so Hyder can play off the ball as he is not a point guard. Not sure he is Pac 12 material either way.

Assuming everyone is healthy and comes back, the starting lineup will likely be Brown, Bradley, Celestine, Kelly and Anticevich. The 3 freshmen should all play as weill as Bowser. Thorpe and Thiemann will provide some size but I just don't see them making a huge impact on the progarm while they are here. Hyder or Foreman can hopefully spell Brown for a few minutes but neither is capable of playing a lot of minutes IMO. We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

I hope Fox is able to pull it off as I do think we need some continuity. We seemto start over (meaning at the bottom) every time a new coach comes in and that makes it really hard for us to gain traction as a program.

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71Bear said:

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Fox isn't the issue. He is an innocent victim in this mess. The culprit is Knowlton. He failed to do any due diligence regarding the hire. He farmed everything out to an agency whose only interest was placing "their guy" in the head coaching position regardless of his ability to turn the program around.

Why does anyone here think that Knowlton won't do the same thing again once Fox is inevitably fired? The next guy will also be a retread that some agency is pushing. The only way out of this situation is turn the hiring decision over to an team of individuals that is willing to put some effort into the process instead of subcontracting the decision to a group that does not have Cal's best interests at heart.

It is all about putting together a team of men and women that understand Cal, is aware of the unique challenges the coach will face, and is willing to do the hard work of finding the right person for the job.

Are we confident that will happen? Nope. Will we continue to see a substandard program on the floor every game? Yep.

In summary, Knowlton is the problem not Fox.

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NathanAllen said:

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BeachedBear said:

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.As we come close to the end of the season, my opinion of Fox and coaching is adapting a bit. Here is where I'm at.

I think FOX is a better coach than Jones. I don't think he's as good as Monty and never will be. His ceiling is probably less than Braun or Campanelli.

However, based on the results the last decade or so, my sense is that coaching skills has less impact on results than talent. Sure there are a few coaches that can make due with less talent, but they are few, hard to find and unlikely to arrive at Cal.

Besides recruiting talent, we should be looking for a coach that can make that talent work well together. I'm not a fan of his at all (and don't suggest anyone like him would be a good fit at Cal), but most people describing Calipari would do so with those two attributes.

In the P12, Altman is probably the closest comparison or Miller at UA. Again. I don't like either of those, but the results speak for themselves. I'm racking my brains for a D1 coach that fits the bill and is not tainted.

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I'm not in the know enough to know if these dudes are "tainted," but I've always admired Mick Cronin (I know, I know, but look at his Cincy teams), Chris Beard at Texas Tech, and Leonard Hamilton at Florida State. I also wonder how long a guy like Brian Dutcher is going to stick around at San Diego State. Lon Kruger at Oklahoma seems to get a lot out of his players. Archie Miller was a guy I really liked at Dayton but he hasn't been able to quite put it together yet at Indiana. I've also been impressed with what Travis Ford has done at Saint Louis in his brief time there.

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Big C said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I've been thinking a lot about how we got here.

When Fox got here, he was just trying to get bodies to play. Vanover, Sueing and McNeill left and they would have represented 3 of the 5 starting positions had they stayed. Anticevich was returning. Austin, Kelly and Bradley were coming in/becoming eligible. The next 3 best players were JHD, Roman Davis and Jacobi Gordon, not really Pac 12 players. We were in trouble.

So he grabbed Brown (we needed a point guard). He got Kareem South as a one year rental (we needed outside shooting). He got KK, an athletic wing with potential (probably worth the gamble). Thiemann and Thorpe (good to have some big bodies). And finally Klonaras (looked good enough on tape to take a chance).

Young team but not a good outside shooting team. We needed that to improve. He slowed the game down, got Paris to become more of a passer and we showed signs of life towards the end of last season.

We lose South and Austin and in the search for some long distance shooters, he grabs Foreman and Betley. We had some success with Mullins so Betley made sense and Foreman could play PG so he was a hedge if Hyder couldn't play. He also gets Bowser and Celestine. Longer, athletic wings.

Then we have a bit of bad luck (and trust me, I HATE making excuses). COVID protocols. We lose 2 weeks of practice. Bradley gets hurt not once, but twice, then gets sick in teh past 2 weeks missing practice all week. I still don't think he is 100%. Grant has his appendix burst. He's out for 4 weeks. Losing Bradley twice (not to mention him being sick recently) especially hurts because the team can never seem to gain any continuity. That reflects in our inconsistent play from game to game and even within games.

Betley turns out to be a heady player, but can't shoot as well when he has to hurry his shot against more athletic competition. Same with Foreman. Both are liabilities defensively. Klonaras, KK and Thiemann get caught overseas and don't progress as much as they normally would under normal circumstances. Celestine is hurt for a good portion of the start of the season. Bowser would have ideally redshirted to gain some muscle.

In short, while other teams have been affected by the pandemic, it really hurt us when you factor in the injuries and how our team is made up with the number of foreign players we have. Switching lineups so often has made it difficult for us to establish any kind of continuity. I get it since we are losing and Fox feels the need to mix things up. But I think it has hindered our ability to execute at a higher level than we are seeing now.

The team needs to improve in just about every area. Rebounding. Defense. Shooting. Taking care of the ball (turnovers).

Next year, we have Roberson, Alajiki and Anyanwu coming in. Judging by Fox's reaction to Betley coming out of today's game, I'm guessing he doesn't come back. I think Betley also realizes that he is playing in a league over his head a bit. I would guess that Klonaras will move on at some point. Can't be fun sitting on the bench. Hopefully we can get another point guard so Hyder can play off the ball as he is not a point guard. Not sure he is Pac 12 material either way.

Assuming everyone is healthy and comes back, the starting lineup will likely be Brown, Bradley, Celestine, Kelly and Anticevich. The 3 freshmen should all play as weill as Bowser. Thorpe and Thiemann will provide some size but I just don't see them making a huge impact on the progarm while they are here. Hyder or Foreman can hopefully spell Brown for a few minutes but neither is capable of playing a lot of minutes IMO. We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

I hope Fox is able to pull it off as I do think we need some continuity. We seemto start over (meaning at the bottom) every time a new coach comes in and that makes it really hard for us to gain traction as a program.

---

Some minor corrections (to some great thoughts):

Austin, Kelly and Bradley played their first eligible years for Wyking Jones, then returned for their second years under Fox.

Pretty sure Roman Davis was done before Fox arrived.

Joel Brown and DJ Thorpe both committed to Wyking Jones' staff. Fox was able to dissuade them from backing out of their commitments. Not so with McNeill, Sueing and Vanover (that last one hurt!).


An area where I completely agree with you is how the pandemic affected us more than some others. They say that, typically, a player improves the most from his freshman to his sophomore season. We had a bunch of players in that category (Thiemann, Klonaras, Hyder, Thorpe, Kuany and Brown) who never really had the opportunity to take that step forward, as the shut-down hit RIGHT after the season and lasted through the summer.

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NathanAllen said:

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Bear8995 said:

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I've been thinking a lot about how we got here.

When Fox got here, he was just trying to get bodies to play. Vanover, Sueing and McNeill left and they would have represented 3 of the 5 starting positions had they stayed. Anticevich was returning. Austin, Kelly and Bradley were coming in/becoming eligible. The next 3 best players were JHD, Roman Davis and Jacobi Gordon, not really Pac 12 players. We were in trouble.

So he grabbed Brown (we needed a point guard). He got Kareem South as a one year rental (we needed outside shooting). He got KK, an athletic wing with potential (probably worth the gamble). Thiemann and Thorpe (good to have some big bodies). And finally Klonaras (looked good enough on tape to take a chance).

Young team but not a good outside shooting team. We needed that to improve. He slowed the game down, got Paris to become more of a passer and we showed signs of life towards the end of last season.

We lose South and Austin and in the search for some long distance shooters, he grabs Foreman and Betley. We had some success with Mullins so Betley made sense and Foreman could play PG so he was a hedge if Hyder couldn't play. He also gets Bowser and Celestine. Longer, athletic wings.

Then we have a bit of bad luck (and trust me, I HATE making excuses). COVID protocols. We lose 2 weeks of practice. Bradley gets hurt not once, but twice, then gets sick in teh past 2 weeks missing practice all week. I still don't think he is 100%. Grant has his appendix burst. He's out for 4 weeks. Losing Bradley twice (not to mention him being sick recently) especially hurts because the team can never seem to gain any continuity. That reflects in our inconsistent play from game to game and even within games.

Betley turns out to be a heady player, but can't shoot as well when he has to hurry his shot against more athletic competition. Same with Foreman. Both are liabilities defensively. Klonaras, KK and Thiemann get caught overseas and don't progress as much as they normally would under normal circumstances. Celestine is hurt for a good portion of the start of the season. Bowser would have ideally redshirted to gain some muscle.

In short, while other teams have been affected by the pandemic, it really hurt us when you factor in the injuries and how our team is made up with the number of foreign players we have. Switching lineups so often has made it difficult for us to establish any kind of continuity. I get it since we are losing and Fox feels the need to mix things up. But I think it has hindered our ability to execute at a higher level than we are seeing now.

The team needs to improve in just about every area. Rebounding. Defense. Shooting. Taking care of the ball (turnovers).

Next year, we have Roberson, Alajiki and Anyanwu coming in. Judging by Fox's reaction to Betley coming out of today's game, I'm guessing he doesn't come back. I think Betley also realizes that he is playing in a league over his head a bit. I would guess that Klonaras will move on at some point. Can't be fun sitting on the bench. Hopefully we can get another point guard so Hyder can play off the ball as he is not a point guard. Not sure he is Pac 12 material either way.

Assuming everyone is healthy and comes back, the starting lineup will likely be Brown, Bradley, Celestine, Kelly and Anticevich. The 3 freshmen should all play as weill as Bowser. Thorpe and Thiemann will provide some size but I just don't see them making a huge impact on the progarm while they are here. Hyder or Foreman can hopefully spell Brown for a few minutes but neither is capable of playing a lot of minutes IMO. We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

I hope Fox is able to pull it off as I do think we need some continuity. We seemto start over (meaning at the bottom) every time a new coach comes in and that makes it really hard for us to gain traction as a program.

---

While I really like the general level-headedness and positivity of your overall post/thoughts, I want to make a couple of points.

First, Fox is not responsible for Brown and Thorpe being in Berkeley. They both signed LOI before Wyking Jones left. Yes, Fox had to re-recruit them to make sure they didn't ask out of their LOI, but that's a lot easier to do than the initial recruitment, which Jones gets credit for.

Second, my personal opinion is Cal has had it very easy regarding COVID compared to other teams. Yes, I get that they had the shut down at the beginning of the season, but that was it. They changed the opponent of their opening game to Oregon State and that's literally the only schedule disruption they've had. Maybe that caused them to get a slower start, and maybe it disadvantaged them to play ASU and UCLA in early-December, but Cal had a VERY light non-con load. It didn't play a single team ranked inside KenPom's top-100. Even if they were disrupted early-on, it doesn't change the fact they lost 11 of their last 12 games.

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NathanAllen said:

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Bear8995 said:

---

I've been thinking a lot about how we got here.

When Fox got here, he was just trying to get bodies to play. Vanover, Sueing and McNeill left and they would have represented 3 of the 5 starting positions had they stayed. Anticevich was returning. Austin, Kelly and Bradley were coming in/becoming eligible. The next 3 best players were JHD, Roman Davis and Jacobi Gordon, not really Pac 12 players. We were in trouble.

So he grabbed Brown (we needed a point guard). He got Kareem South as a one year rental (we needed outside shooting). He got KK, an athletic wing with potential (probably worth the gamble). Thiemann and Thorpe (good to have some big bodies). And finally Klonaras (looked good enough on tape to take a chance).

Young team but not a good outside shooting team. We needed that to improve. He slowed the game down, got Paris to become more of a passer and we showed signs of life towards the end of last season.

We lose South and Austin and in the search for some long distance shooters, he grabs Foreman and Betley. We had some success with Mullins so Betley made sense and Foreman could play PG so he was a hedge if Hyder couldn't play. He also gets Bowser and Celestine. Longer, athletic wings.

Then we have a bit of bad luck (and trust me, I HATE making excuses). COVID protocols. We lose 2 weeks of practice. Bradley gets hurt not once, but twice, then gets sick in teh past 2 weeks missing practice all week. I still don't think he is 100%. Grant has his appendix burst. He's out for 4 weeks. Losing Bradley twice (not to mention him being sick recently) especially hurts because the team can never seem to gain any continuity. That reflects in our inconsistent play from game to game and even within games.

Betley turns out to be a heady player, but can't shoot as well when he has to hurry his shot against more athletic competition. Same with Foreman. Both are liabilities defensively. Klonaras, KK and Thiemann get caught overseas and don't progress as much as they normally would under normal circumstances. Celestine is hurt for a good portion of the start of the season. Bowser would have ideally redshirted to gain some muscle.

In short, while other teams have been affected by the pandemic, it really hurt us when you factor in the injuries and how our team is made up with the number of foreign players we have. Switching lineups so often has made it difficult for us to establish any kind of continuity. I get it since we are losing and Fox feels the need to mix things up. But I think it has hindered our ability to execute at a higher level than we are seeing now.

The team needs to improve in just about every area. Rebounding. Defense. Shooting. Taking care of the ball (turnovers).

Next year, we have Roberson, Alajiki and Anyanwu coming in. Judging by Fox's reaction to Betley coming out of today's game, I'm guessing he doesn't come back. I think Betley also realizes that he is playing in a league over his head a bit. I would guess that Klonaras will move on at some point. Can't be fun sitting on the bench. Hopefully we can get another point guard so Hyder can play off the ball as he is not a point guard. Not sure he is Pac 12 material either way.

Assuming everyone is healthy and comes back, the starting lineup will likely be Brown, Bradley, Celestine, Kelly and Anticevich. The 3 freshmen should all play as weill as Bowser. Thorpe and Thiemann will provide some size but I just don't see them making a huge impact on the progarm while they are here. Hyder or Foreman can hopefully spell Brown for a few minutes but neither is capable of playing a lot of minutes IMO. We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

I hope Fox is able to pull it off as I do think we need some continuity. We seemto start over (meaning at the bottom) every time a new coach comes in and that makes it really hard for us to gain traction as a program.

---

While I really like the general level-headedness and positivity of your overall post/thoughts, I want to make a couple of points.

First, Fox is not responsible for Brown and Thorpe being in Berkeley. They both signed LOI before Wyking Jones left. Yes, Fox had to re-recruit them to make sure they didn't ask out of their LOI, but that's a lot easier to do than the initial recruitment, which Jones gets credit for.

Second, my personal opinion is Cal has had it very easy regarding COVID compared to other teams. Yes, I get that they had the shut down at the beginning of the season, but that was it. They changed the opponent of their opening game to Oregon State and that's literally the only schedule disruption they've had. Maybe that caused them to get a slower start, and maybe it disadvantaged them to play ASU and UCLA in early-December, but Cal had a VERY light non-con load. It didn't play a single team ranked inside KenPom's top-100. Even if they were disrupted early-on, it doesn't change the fact they lost 11 of their last 12 games.

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drizzlybear said:

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Where did all this dislike for Knowlton come from? I'm surprised to see it bc I had the impression that the consensus view was that he is well liked and doing a good job in the various things ADs do. I can see some level of disappointment if he deferred the basketball coach hire to a talent company, especially if the hire turned out poorly. But isn't the jury still out for most people on the Fox hire? And in any case, isn't that a fairly common practice in the industry? Plus, I had the impression that JK is genuinely liked by the coaches and viewed as being smartly engaged with the programs (including, most notably, Wilcox and the football program)? And I had the impression that JK is going about addressing Cal's financial challenges smartly, too.

I am not informed or connected at all to that level to know how the AD is doing, but in short, I had the impression that people are generally pleased with Knowlton. But this thread suggests otherwise.

Also, when is the last time the Cal community liked its AD? Is it an impossible and thankless job, particularly at Cal?

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NathanAllen said:

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drizzlybear said:

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NathanAllen said:

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Bear8995 said:

---

I've been thinking a lot about how we got here.

When Fox got here, he was just trying to get bodies to play. Vanover, Sueing and McNeill left and they would have represented 3 of the 5 starting positions had they stayed. Anticevich was returning. Austin, Kelly and Bradley were coming in/becoming eligible. The next 3 best players were JHD, Roman Davis and Jacobi Gordon, not really Pac 12 players. We were in trouble.

So he grabbed Brown (we needed a point guard). He got Kareem South as a one year rental (we needed outside shooting). He got KK, an athletic wing with potential (probably worth the gamble). Thiemann and Thorpe (good to have some big bodies). And finally Klonaras (looked good enough on tape to take a chance).

Young team but not a good outside shooting team. We needed that to improve. He slowed the game down, got Paris to become more of a passer and we showed signs of life towards the end of last season.

We lose South and Austin and in the search for some long distance shooters, he grabs Foreman and Betley. We had some success with Mullins so Betley made sense and Foreman could play PG so he was a hedge if Hyder couldn't play. He also gets Bowser and Celestine. Longer, athletic wings.

Then we have a bit of bad luck (and trust me, I HATE making excuses). COVID protocols. We lose 2 weeks of practice. Bradley gets hurt not once, but twice, then gets sick in teh past 2 weeks missing practice all week. I still don't think he is 100%. Grant has his appendix burst. He's out for 4 weeks. Losing Bradley twice (not to mention him being sick recently) especially hurts because the team can never seem to gain any continuity. That reflects in our inconsistent play from game to game and even within games.

Betley turns out to be a heady player, but can't shoot as well when he has to hurry his shot against more athletic competition. Same with Foreman. Both are liabilities defensively. Klonaras, KK and Thiemann get caught overseas and don't progress as much as they normally would under normal circumstances. Celestine is hurt for a good portion of the start of the season. Bowser would have ideally redshirted to gain some muscle.

In short, while other teams have been affected by the pandemic, it really hurt us when you factor in the injuries and how our team is made up with the number of foreign players we have. Switching lineups so often has made it difficult for us to establish any kind of continuity. I get it since we are losing and Fox feels the need to mix things up. But I think it has hindered our ability to execute at a higher level than we are seeing now.

The team needs to improve in just about every area. Rebounding. Defense. Shooting. Taking care of the ball (turnovers).

Next year, we have Roberson, Alajiki and Anyanwu coming in. Judging by Fox's reaction to Betley coming out of today's game, I'm guessing he doesn't come back. I think Betley also realizes that he is playing in a league over his head a bit. I would guess that Klonaras will move on at some point. Can't be fun sitting on the bench. Hopefully we can get another point guard so Hyder can play off the ball as he is not a point guard. Not sure he is Pac 12 material either way.

Assuming everyone is healthy and comes back, the starting lineup will likely be Brown, Bradley, Celestine, Kelly and Anticevich. The 3 freshmen should all play as weill as Bowser. Thorpe and Thiemann will provide some size but I just don't see them making a huge impact on the progarm while they are here. Hyder or Foreman can hopefully spell Brown for a few minutes but neither is capable of playing a lot of minutes IMO. We shouldn't end up last like this year but I think the key is who Fox brings in next year. If we get a class similar to this years, we should be OK going forward (we do need a good point guard in this class). If we take a step back, we will be at the bottom of the conference for quite a while necessitating a change at the top.

I hope Fox is able to pull it off as I do think we need some continuity. We seemto start over (meaning at the bottom) every time a new coach comes in and that makes it really hard for us to gain traction as a program.

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While I really like the general level-headedness and positivity of your overall post/thoughts, I want to make a couple of points.

First, Fox is not responsible for Brown and Thorpe being in Berkeley. They both signed LOI before Wyking Jones left. Yes, Fox had to re-recruit them to make sure they didn't ask out of their LOI, but that's a lot easier to do than the initial recruitment, which Jones gets credit for.

Second, my personal opinion is Cal has had it very easy regarding COVID compared to other teams. Yes, I get that they had the shut down at the beginning of the season, but that was it. They changed the opponent of their opening game to Oregon State and that's literally the only schedule disruption they've had. Maybe that caused them to get a slower start, and maybe it disadvantaged them to play ASU and UCLA in early-December, but Cal had a VERY light non-con load. It didn't play a single team ranked inside KenPom's top-100. Even if they were disrupted early-on, it doesn't change the fact they lost 11 of their last 12 games.

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It's true that Cal has had little in-season schedule disruption, but the hit to the off-season has been catastrophic for preparing for this season. I have the impression that it was particularly hard for Cal because: a) most teams didn't have the kind of local restrictions Cal had, b) with a disproportionate number of foreign players, it was harder/later for Cal to get its players back together and working/training, and c) with an unusually long rotation including a number of new players, the lack of a useful pre-season hit Cal particularly hard. Add to the preseason disruption the substantial losses of Bradley and GA to injury mid-season, and I believe it's fair to say that this team has had an uphill battle getting a sense of cohesion this season.

You could visibly see the lack of conditioning on the players (especially, for example, Kelly, whose play has markedly improved over the course of the season as his conditioning has improved and he has avoided significant injury), and to me it took until the second UCLA game for them to start looking like a cohesive unit at all. And while some mock the notion that competitive losses are different from non-competitive losses, or that there's even such a thing as a competitive loss, it's clear to me that this team has generally played much better basketball in the second half of the season.

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I understand. But there are at least a few counter-arguments/points to this. First, there are a lot of assumptions the underclassmen make noticeable improvements with a normal off-season. We have no proof/fact this would've actually happened. It's a nice thought, and that's what we hope for, but even in a normal off-season, that's far from a given.

Second, yes, Berkeley as a city has tough restrictions. I'm a Berkeley resident. But so did LA County. USC and UCLA seemed to be fine (yes, I know, more talented rosters, but still, they're both competing for the league title). While Berkeley would be on the stricter side of the COVID-restrictions spectrum, it certainly isn't the only one especially in major West Coast metro areas. Hell, at least Cal was able to play all season at Haas instead of huffing it over the Santa Cruz Mountains for a majority of home games.

As for implementing international/new players, again, maybe that's a disadvantage for Cal, but look at Wazzu. They have just as many international/new players. Same goes with injuries. Yes, losing a guy like Bradley is huge. But Cal certainly isn't the only team dealing with that. Wazzu has been without Isaac Bonton six game this season, including, four of the last five. Arizona lost Jemarl Baker for the entire season. ASU has been playing without Josh Christopher and Marcus Bagley for a lot of games. Stanford has now been down Oscar da Silva during a key stretch of the season. UCLA has been without Chris Smith and Jalen Hill. Oregon lost N'Faly Dante and has basically been playing five dudes more than 30 minutes each game.

My point is Cal's dealing with new/international players and COVID are not unique to Cal. And when considering other teams in the conference/country, I'd argue Cal has been impacted mildly by both. Maybe off-season/early-season disruptions set the team back. But Cal has had one of the smoothest seasons in the country and has had plenty of uninterrupted time to catch back up.

I'm not saying we should say Fox is horrible and Cal is horrible. I'm just saying my opinion is COVID and injuries don't get a ton of weight when evaluating this season when a) so many programs dealt with the same and b) we don't know what the exact impact of either on actual outcomes were.

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