calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

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During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.

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Yes, thanks (and no thanks) for the reminder. So poor, and such a window into his character. Unacceptable.

calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

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During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.

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Ah right. Forgot about that. But wonder why it's still flying in Irvine.

KoreAmBear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

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During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.

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Ah right. Forgot about that. But wonder why it's still flying in Irvine.

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Something like that might be enough to take somebody off a "candidates' list", but not enough to get them fired, especially if they showed due contrition.

Reminded me of when Jim Rome kept calling QB Jim Everett "Chris" (for female tennis star Chris Evert). Very weak.

Actually another Cal coaching candidate Video Kid won the Big West Conf tournament.

KoreAmBear said:

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Actually another Cal coaching candidate Video Kid won the Big West Conf tournament.

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And Legans and EWU should win Big Sky.

Stanford Jonah said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

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IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

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You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

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During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.

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Ah right. Forgot about that. But wonder why it's still flying in Irvine.

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Because winning is more important than a poor choice of words at most schools. Not at Moral Victory U though. We lose with class, except when we fake injuries (Tedford), push our player (Monty), etc.

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I prefer a players-coach type, and not an old-school type coach.

turner flunks both criteria

I didn't even like Monty, except he was such an exceptional coach that I thought he was a great coach for Cal

If I was to go out of the box, but stay west coast (which I think we should), I'd think about Romar. He just needs to get an associate head coach for Xs and Os

Stanford Jonah said:

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HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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BeachedBear said:

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I think Fox needs to add an ace recruiter to his staff ASAP. Talent seems to be the biggest flaw in the program and that seems like a relatively effective fix without having to replace the entire staff and start over from scratch and deal with buy outs.

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If this were such an easy fix, Fox would have done this already. Ace recruiters don't grow on trees, and they sure as heck aren't lining up to join the Cal staff.

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If there's an ace recruiter out there, I'm firing Fox, hiring the ace recruiter to be the head coach, and telling him to go get an ace X's and O's man. People who can coach X's and O's are a dime a dozen.

Coffee is for recruiters.

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Yes, except in the 35 years I have been a fan and through 7 coaches, only one has been anywhere near average Xs and Os. And that was Monty, who was way above average. Now Cal does have a history of hiring a strong Xs and Os assistant, Gary Colson, who was given responsibility. But that is so rare that I don't know of another team that has done it, though I am sure there are cases. Incompetents are unaware of their incompetence.

I want the Xs and Os guy. Cal should recruit in the middle of the conference just based on all its advantages. Fox is neither Xs and Os nor a recruiter nor a players coach. But I hear he is awesome in an interview.

sluggo said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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HuaHin (fka Uthai) said:

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BeachedBear said:

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I think Fox needs to add an ace recruiter to his staff ASAP. Talent seems to be the biggest flaw in the program and that seems like a relatively effective fix without having to replace the entire staff and start over from scratch and deal with buy outs.

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If this were such an easy fix, Fox would have done this already. Ace recruiters don't grow on trees, and they sure as heck aren't lining up to join the Cal staff.

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If there's an ace recruiter out there, I'm firing Fox, hiring the ace recruiter to be the head coach, and telling him to go get an ace X's and O's man. People who can coach X's and O's are a dime a dozen.

Coffee is for recruiters.

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Yes, except in the 35 years I have been a fan and through 7 coaches, only one has been anywhere near average Xs and Os. And that was Monty, who was way above average. Now Cal does have a history of hiring a strong Xs and Os assistant, Gary Colson, who was given responsibility. But that is so rare that I don't know of another team that has done it, though I am sure there are cases. Incompetents are unaware of their incompetence.

I want the Xs and Os guy. Cal should recruit in the middle of the conference just based on all its advantages. Fox is neither Xs and Os nor a recruiter nor a players coach. But I hear he is awesome in an interview.

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As long as the interviewer doesn't know what he should be looking for and instead hires based on the person being and thinking like himself (an east coast white Republican hockey-loving Arny officer/bearucrat)

calumnus said:

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HoopDreams said:

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Stanford Jonah said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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calumnus said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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KoreAmBear said:

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Russell Turner doing another good job ready to get UCI into the finals of the Big West Tournament. I forgot if we ever pursued him (I think they were in the NCAAs when we were doing our coaching search), but we should have gone hard after him as he is from the Monty tree and the way they play looks very fundamental like Monty's teams. Plus he knows UC type requirements and has gotten some decent talent onto the Irvine campus. Why did we just jump at Fox again?

---

IIRC, didn't Russell Turner publicly say or do something stupid right around the time we let Wyking Jones go?

---

You are recalling correctly. Like you, I can't remember what exactly it was. But I am also recalling that his "apology" was worse? I remember feeling like what he said/did was a deal-breaker for me, and I otherwise liked him as an option at the time.

---

During the NCAA Tournament he tried to rattle Oregon PG Louis King by repeatedly calling him "Queen" such as yelling "double the little queen!" It was audible on the national TV broadcast and was correctly seen as homophobic and/or misogynistic. When called out on it he tried to blame his players for it, saying they came up with it in practice.

Would not fly at Cal at all.

---

Ah right. Forgot about that. But wonder why it's still flying in Irvine.

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Because winning is more important than a poor choice of words at most schools. Not at Moral Victory U though. We lose with class, except when we fake injuries (Tedford), push our player (Monty), etc.

---

I prefer a players-coach type, and not an old-school type coach.

turner flunks both criteria

I didn't even like Monty, except he was such an exceptional coach that I thought he was a great coach for Cal

If I was to go out of the box, but stay west coast (which I think we should), I'd think about Romar. He just needs to get an associate head coach for Xs and Os

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Agreed, old school authoritarian leadership styles are out of date and are especially a really bad fit for Cal students and recruits otherwise attracted to the Berkeley campus. I want to pull the next Shareef or Jaylen Brown out of Atlanta, plus top kids from Oakland and LA. Top players who are smart want to know how you and your school fit into their life and their aspirations, not how they will be your chess piece. If you are asking them to do something you need to be able to explain why, so they understand and get buy-in. You need to be open to feedback. The players are the ones on the court and might have ideas. Coaches who put players in the doghouse, who yell and scream, especially while losing, just see their best players head to the transfer portal.

I also think a coach at Cal needs to be obviously smart. They will be coaching smart kids. They need to be flexible in strategy depending on the best players who they can land. Able to put the players here in the best situation to win. Someone who pays attention to the advanced metrics. The three point shot has revolutionized the game but is still undervalued.

In general, a fast, high scoring style of play is going to be more attractive to top recruits. That has been the favored style on the West Coast for a long time. Lakers, Warriors, UCLA, LMU. Pac-12 refs will not let you play the physical style that can work elsewhere.

Gonzaga is the best example of a West Coast program that emphasizes playing efficient offense, getting shots for three point shooters, defending the three and playing fast.

I think with the right coach Cal can be similar, but ultimately more attractive to recruits due to our school and location. With the Warriors move across the Bay, and Haas' location near BART and downtown, Cal has the potential to become the East Bay's home team. That will generate the revenues to support retaining a top coach and his staff. Plus a dedicated practice facility.

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Good post

calumnus said:

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... I also think a coach at Cal needs to be obviously smart ...

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In my first quarter at Cal I signed up for ROTC, just in case. The classroom portion was taught by some sargent who was about the dullest adult I had ever encountered. After the first class I quit, figuring if I'd be serving under leaders like him I'd be better off taking my chances on alternatives to the military. I'd say matching that instructor to Cal students was a dismal recruiting failure.

I really think Cal's facilities and location are major issues.

1) Facilities. A significant portion of the population is impressed with bells, whistles and bright shiny objects that have limited practical value (celebrity worship is just one aspect), and when young athletes come to Cal, what do they see?

An old gym (with plenty of history, but what does a 17-year-old care about history?), no fancy practice gym and nothing like the facilities at, say, Oregon.

There's also a serious lack of buzz around Cal basketball. The team has ranged from average to mediocre to bad, and even with Jaylen Brown, couldn't move the needle much. Granted, this isn't about facilities, but it leads into ...

2) Location. Fans have to be committed to come to Haas. Parking is an issue, getting there can be an issue, and as mentioned, it's an old gym. So that makes it harder to build excitement in the gym that would be apparent to a recruit.

Now if Haas were packed and rockin', it could be a pretty cool place, but when it's neither, it's just old.

Back in the day (and not just at Cal), students provided more excitement, but 21st century college students are less enthusiastic about sports than their forebears -- and even more so at Cal. The academic reputation that might attract recruits also leads to fierce classroom competition, which translates into focus on studying and focusing on learning, not on having a few beers, going to the game, and then having a few more beers.

If there is any validity to these points, it means that the coach -- whoever he is -- is fighting a serious uphill battle from day one. On the one hand, even a good coach might not succeed; on the other, a good coach might look at Cal and say "Let me know when you have better facilities and you draw 10,000 a night."

On top of that, there is the general apathy in the Bay Area towards college sports as a whole, which comes from football. A powerhouse P5 college football team could change the atmosphere, but again, that comes back to facilities, location and recruiting.

Does Cal also have self-imposed academic restrictions for recruiting? I don't know the specifics about that, but if that's true then that's another deterrent for many coaches.

I would also add cost of living as an additional challenge. Those who compare coaching staff compensation based solely on the dollar figure are incomplete and misleading in their analysis.

Obviously Cal also has some major unique attractive features as well. And the right coach (e.g., Ben Braun, for a while) will see Cal as the terrific opportunity that it can be for many coaches.
But, for example, I know Sluggo likes Tinkle (this is certainly the moment to like Tinkle), but there's no way Tinkle would ever be looking to coach at Berkeley. Similarly, Kyle Smith (my preferred candidate at the time) preferred to coach at WSU over Cal despite comparable salary dollars, and I'm sure he's enjoying the absence of these two challenges at WSU.

I still look at Haas as fairly new. But then I used to go to games at Harmon. Whywould we wantbto rebuikd it again when it is never more than half full? What features dies it not have?

oskidunker said:

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I still look at Haas as fairly new. But then I used to go to games at Harmon. Whywould we wantbto rebuikd it again when it is never more than half full? What features dies it not have?

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Blue and Gold glasses off, it's a dump to a sought after 17 y/o. Even without the dedicated practice facility, the venue itself is just incredibly dated, and not in a charming retro way. Just old.

socaliganbear said:

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oskidunker said:

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I still look at Haas as fairly new. But then I used to go to games at Harmon. Whywould we wantbto rebuikd it again when it is never more than half full? What features dies it not have?

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Blue and Gold glasses off, it's a dump to a sought after 17 y/o. Even without the dedicated practice facility, the venue itself is just incredibly dated, and not in a charming retro way. Just old.

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To clarify, from the perspective of a sought after 17 y/o (or anyone for that matter). 97.5% of any issue is resolved if the venue is at 70% capacity or greater. Once that happens on a consistent basis, then we can worry about the other 2.5%

No point in considering significant changes to HAAS until a number of social and economic issues resolve themselves in the next couple decades (general interest in college basketball, changing NCAA sports landscape, TV contracts, student body interest in sports, Cal's interest in fielding a competitive program, etc.)

Now a dedicated practice facility near the Edwards Field location on the other hand . . .

Agree. The practice facility needs to be our top priority, as it will also help to get more coaching candidates to take us seriously. I hope there is a plan to get a "simpler" one up and running, that we can add bells and whistles to down the road (unless we can do it all at one, which would be even better).

As we learned with CMS, facilities don't automatically help recruiting, but LOUSY facilities are surely a constraint.

I use the term "our top priority" like I'm going to help get the project off the ground, but the best I can do is one season ticket. I'm hoping that other friends of California Basketball can make this happen. Soon.

BeachedBear said:

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socaliganbear said:

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oskidunker said:

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I still look at Haas as fairly new. But then I used to go to games at Harmon. Whywould we wantbto rebuikd it again when it is never more than half full? What features dies it not have?

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Blue and Gold glasses off, it's a dump to a sought after 17 y/o. Even without the dedicated practice facility, the venue itself is just incredibly dated, and not in a charming retro way. Just old.

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To clarify, from the perspective of a sought after 17 y/o (or anyone for that matter). 97.5% of any issue is resolved if the venue is at 70% capacity or greater. Once that happens on a consistent basis, then we can worry about the other 2.5%

No point in considering significant changes to HAAS until a number of social and economic issues resolve themselves in the next couple decades (general interest in college basketball, changing NCAA sports landscape, TV contracts, student body interest in sports, Cal's interest in fielding a competitive program, etc.)

Now a dedicated practice facility near the Edwards Field location on the other hand . . .

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Chicken and egg. Playing in an (aging) oversized high school gym without a practice facility certainly won't help us get there anytime soon, and definitely not consistently.

Agree Big C, modern facilities won't guarantee you recruits, but having bad facilities (which Cal does) can certainly create a barrier, and given how many barriers Cal already has, that could be a difference maker.

ClayK said:

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I really think Cal's facilities and location are major issues.

1) Facilities. A significant portion of the population is impressed with bells, whistles and bright shiny objects that have limited practical value (celebrity worship is just one aspect), and when young athletes come to Cal, what do they see?

An old gym (with plenty of history, but what does a 17-year-old care about history?), no fancy practice gym and nothing like the facilities at, say, Oregon.

There's also a serious lack of buzz around Cal basketball. The team has ranged from average to mediocre to bad, and even with Jaylen Brown, couldn't move the needle much. Granted, this isn't about facilities, but it leads into ...

2) Location. Fans have to be committed to come to Haas. Parking is an issue, getting there can be an issue, and as mentioned, it's an old gym. So that makes it harder to build excitement in the gym that would be apparent to a recruit.

Now if Haas were packed and rockin', it could be a pretty cool place, but when it's neither, it's just old.

Back in the day (and not just at Cal), students provided more excitement, but 21st century college students are less enthusiastic about sports than their forebears -- and even more so at Cal. The academic reputation that might attract recruits also leads to fierce classroom competition, which translates into focus on studying and focusing on learning, not on having a few beers, going to the game, and then having a few more beers.

If there is any validity to these points, it means that the coach -- whoever he is -- is fighting a serious uphill battle from day one. On the one hand, even a good coach might not succeed; on the other, a good coach might look at Cal and say "Let me know when you have better facilities and you draw 10,000 a night."

On top of that, there is the general apathy in the Bay Area towards college sports as a whole, which comes from football. A powerhouse P5 college football team could change the atmosphere, but again, that comes back to facilities, location and recruiting.

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The walk from Downton BART to Haas is 10 minutes with fantastic dinning and drinking options along the way, a bridge crossing Strawberry Creek, redwood groves, a great full on view of the Campanile... No other sports venue in the Bay Area (really, almost anywhere), professional or college, is better situated for BART/Public transit access. None. No place has as many great dinning options. I have never had trouble getting parking downtown either. The metered street parking is free at night and there are plenty of public multistory lots with very reasonable prices. If you have mobility issues and can't handle the short walk there is plenty of handicap parking adjacent to Haas too.

socaliganbear said:

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IMO Cal should reduce capacity of Haas, and reconfigure the arena for better fan experience and wider concourse. SMU's Moody coliseum is a good example of a practical remodel, capacity reduction, practice facility addition and modernization.

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YES!!!

The knife cuts both ways. A smaller stadium is better able to compensate for falling attendance, but if a team starts getting good and people want to come to their games, bigger is better, especially if they make the playoffs. Tarping off some seats could work in some cases if attendance is predicted to be lacking, the Oakland A's did that a lot in the regular season

calbears4ever said:

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The knife cuts both ways. A smaller stadium is better able to compensate for falling attendance, but if a team starts getting good and people want to come to their games, bigger is better, especially if they make the playoffs

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Even if we had a Virginia like turnaround, I think a 7k arena would create a pretty in demand ticket with lots of buzz. Scarcity and buzz would be a fine problem to have.

But mostly, let's be pragmatic about our reality and potential future, and create the best environment possible.

Are you thinking about the fact that Spamford can sell out games so quickly and we can't? If that's the case, then we could take out some back row seats easily. Even though there are many arenas bigger than us already

calbears4ever said:

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Are you thinking about the fact that Spamford can sell out games so quickly and we can't? If that's the case, then we could take out some back row seats easily. Even though there are many arenas bigger than us already

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No.

A lot of it is perception, of course, but the reality can be a problem.

First, even before COVID, BART was not always a pleasant ride. Homeless, crowding, etc., plus you could wait 20 minutes for a train after a game, plus another possible wait for a transfer train.

Second, the 10-minute walk is straight uphill, and for some people, that's 10 minutes of knee pain -- and downhill can be worse.

Third, I think the ability to find parking goes along with low attendance. A sold-out Haas, especially if the students aren't packing it, creates parking and traffic issues, especially if the weather is bad.

I grant you the restaurants are great, and the atmosphere is fun, but that means you get there around 5:30 for a 7 p.m. game which means you're battling traffic and a crowded BART.

A great team would likely overcome that, but I don't know that an average one, or even an above-average one, would create enough demand to overcome the hassles of Haas. That said, Haas is here to stay, so it would seem to me that every other facility at Cal needs to match the best in the Pac-12 to impress recruits.

I had no problem riding Bart to and from cal VB games, but with that being said, everyone's experience is different and Cal needs to make games accessible to everyone so that people are not impacted by what seems to be the most mundane of things

Where will Cal soccer and track be if Edwards is gone? The only possibilities I see are Clark Kerr and Whitter