PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

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I don't know whether he was qualified or not. HoopDreams' initial comment about this implied he was qualified, but not admitted; if that's the case, I can understand that it might have been another factor in Cuonzo thinking about leaving. I believe Jeff Tedford's son was a student here at Cal (walk-on to the FB team?). I don't know the qualifications he had, relative to Cuonzo's son, but we've certainly had these types of admissions in the past.

And I apologize if I implied that I was outraged over that decision... I was not. I was definitely surprised, as I remember Tedford's son being enrolled here, and so thought that it would be a similar situation. Obviously, if he wasn't qualified, that's a different story. But I was responding to the comment that he was deserving of being here and wasn't admitted. If that were true, I can see how that might have caused some hurt feelings (and it wouldn't surprise me if it was something that was bungled by Mike Williams).

Poor choice of words on my part using the word "qualified". I'm not questioning that Martin's kid met the UC minimum qualification. In fact, I'm sure he did as the majority of high school kids do. All you need is a 3.0 GPA (https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/).

However, only a small percentage of non-football and basketball player high school kids have a strong enough academic and extracurricular profile to be admitted to UC Berkeley. If we start letting in kids because of their parents that wouldn't merit admittance otherwise, we may as well rename UC Berkeley to UNC (sister school to USC).

PtownBear1 said:

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Poor choice of words on my part using the word "qualified". I'm not questioning that Martin's kid met the UC minimum qualification. In fact, I'm sure he did as the majority of high school kids do. All you need is a 3.0 GPA (https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/).

However, only a small percentage of non-football and basketball player high school kids have a strong enough academic and extracurricular profile to be admitted to UC Berkeley. If we start letting in kids because of their parents that wouldn't merit admittance otherwise, we may as well rename UC Berkeley to UNC (sister school to USC).

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If we become UNC then can we have Song Girls?

PtownBear1 said:

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Poor choice of words on my part using the word "qualified". I'm not questioning that Martin's kid met the UC minimum qualification. In fact, I'm sure he did as the majority of high school kids do. All you need is a 3.0 GPA (https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/).

However, only a small percentage of non-football and basketball player high school kids have a strong enough academic and extracurricular profile to be admitted to UC Berkeley. If we start letting in kids because of their parents that wouldn't merit admittance otherwise, we may as well rename UC Berkeley to UNC (sister school to USC).

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Again, HoopDreams' initial comment was he "deserved" to go here; I'm assuming that he meant more than met the minimum qualification and maybe had a strong case for being here. If not, I apologize for making a mountain out of a molehill. Only HoopDreams can clarify what the original comment meant.

CalLifer said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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Poor choice of words on my part using the word "qualified". I'm not questioning that Martin's kid met the UC minimum qualification. In fact, I'm sure he did as the majority of high school kids do. All you need is a 3.0 GPA (https://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/admission-requirements/freshman-requirements/).

However, only a small percentage of non-football and basketball player high school kids have a strong enough academic and extracurricular profile to be admitted to UC Berkeley. If we start letting in kids because of their parents that wouldn't merit admittance otherwise, we may as well rename UC Berkeley to UNC (sister school to USC).

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Again, HoopDreams' initial comment was he "deserved" to go here; I'm assuming that he meant more than met the minimum qualification and maybe had a strong case for being here. If not, I apologize for making a mountain out of a molehill. Only HoopDreams can clarify what the original comment meant.

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It has reached the point that lots of students with 4.0 gpas and lots of extracurriculars have a coin's toss chance of getting into Cal. They weigh the extracurriculars in some mysterious and likely somewhat random way to make the decisions. The term "qualified" does not mean much under these circumstances. And they are fairly impervious to rewarding children of faculty or staff- not sure about the donor class but probably the same, which helps to explain our poor performance in fundraising.. The privates are much more susceptible to this kind of thing.

But we do have a pipeline with foreign born grad students.

dimitrig said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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Fyght4Cal said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

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Highly credible source HoopDreams says the kid was qualified. What evidence do you have that he wasn't?

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I can't tell if this is a serious question or you're joking. Obviously, the Berkeley admissions committee determined that the kid wasn't qualified. And unless HoopDreams serves on that committee and reviewed the junior Martin's transcripts, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, volunteer work, application essays, and other application criteria, I don't see how he would determine, against the decision of the rest of the committee, that the kid was qualified.

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Qualified probably means that he merely met the minimum criteria for acceptance to UC.

Where did he end up going?

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I don't specifically know if his son qualified for Cal admissions. Apparently not as he wasn't admitted. But he was reportedly a serious and good student from a family who valued education, plus an under-represented minority (yeah, I know Cal does not use EO in their admissions).

He was accepted at Purdue, a high-academics University.

My issue is there should always be judgement applied to applications. People aren't computers and the raw numbers should only be part of the equation. Obviously Cal agrees to some extent as they are eliminating the SAT as admissions criteria.

OaktownBear said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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I think the administration did a lot wrong with respect to Martin, but not admitting his son isn't one. If the kid wasn't qualified to be admitted on his own merit, I'm glad that he wasn't.

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I will never understand why people think not giving unfair advantages to applicants based on who their parents are is an outrage.

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I will never understand why people claim Cal mismanages its athletic department, and in particular its basketball program, and then don't see how stupid it is to not admit the son of your head coach (who at the time you wanted to retain) when the son is by all accounts well within target/typical admissions standards (particularly taking into account the fact that the son is in a targeted underrepresented group which has quite subjective admissions in any event).

Oaktown - you have (correctly in my view) written very harsh posts attacking Cal's lack of commitment to winning, institutional stupidity, shortsighted decision making, and poor financial management. Many (I think you included) have often pointed out how entrenched institutions at Cal (including a vocal component of the faculty) lack a commitment to athletic excellence (and often are openly hostile to sports). It seems this admission decision is all of those things.

At the end of the day, no one would have been upset if his son was admitted. I don't recall any outcry with Quinn Tedford (who I'm guessing was a preferred walk-on admit due solely to his father's influence and clearly not based on his QB abilities). Maybe Cuonzo should have offered his son a PWO?

Just to be clear, if Cuonzo's son wasn't close to a typical student admissions (or if Cal was planning to fire Cuonzo), then he shouldn't have been admitted. But all reports then and now are that he was qualified (he went to Purdue).

I'm not outraged that the son wasn't admitted. I'm am outraged by Cal's stupidity in making that decision knowing it would alienate the coach and give him another reason to feel mistreated and consider leaving.

Cal upheld a vague and dated "admission principle." Cuonzo left - which he may have done in any event. But how did that work out for the team and the University?

calumnus said:

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I guess two of Cuonzo's sons ended up at Purdue (his alma mater). Joshua was the one denied at Cal? His brother had Ivy offers. Purdue is a good school.
https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2021/02/11/purdues-chase-martin-son-mizzou-coach-cuonzo-martin-carving-own-path-familiar-territory/4335441001/

Campanelli's son, Kapp's son, Tedford's sons were all admitted. Why not Cuonzo's?

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Because Cal is harder to get into than Purdue?

dimitrig said:

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calumnus said:

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I guess two of Cuonzo's sons ended up at Purdue (his alma mater). Joshua was the one denied at Cal? His brother had Ivy offers. Purdue is a good school.
https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2021/02/11/purdues-chase-martin-son-mizzou-coach-cuonzo-martin-carving-own-path-familiar-territory/4335441001/

Campanelli's son, Kapp's son, Tedford's sons were all admitted. Why not Cuonzo's?

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Because Cal is harder to get into than Purdue?

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It's also harder to get in to Cal now than it was 10, 15, 20, etc. years ago.

Purdue is a decent academic school, but to make a claim that a kid was admitted there and should therefore be admitted to Cal is ridiculous. They have a 60% admission rate:

https://www.niche.com/colleges/purdue-university/admissions/

Again, I don't know the relative merits of Quinn Tedford vs. Martin's son, but from an optics perspective, it does seem really strange to draw the line at the son of an African American coach while not really caring about that line with the son of a white coach (and this was less than 10 years prior; while I assume that things have gotten more competitive, I wouldn't say it's as different as the late '80s vs. today).

It could well be that Tedford's son(s) were academic all-stars and Martin's son was leagues away from Cal, but if they were close at all, it seems really strange. And while Purdue may have a high acceptance rate, Martin's sons might have chosen it b/c they are so familiar with it, given that Martin went to and played at Purdue (I believe). They may have been indoctrinated into love for Purdue, much as we indoctrinate our own kids to love Cal . THey may have had options that were "better" academically, but their comfort with and love for Purdue might have been the deciding factor in going there. So I don't know that the fact that they ended up at Purdue necessarily is an indicating factor as to their academic resume.

CalLifer said:

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Again, I don't know the relative merits of Quinn Tedford vs. Martin's son, but from an optics perspective, it does seem really strange to draw the line at the son of an African American coach while not really caring about that line with the son of a white coach (and this was less than 10 years prior; while I assume that things have gotten more competitive, I wouldn't say it's as different as the late '80s vs. today).

It could well be that Tedford's son(s) were academic all-stars and Martin's son was leagues away from Cal, but if they were close at all, it seems really strange. And while Purdue may have a high acceptance rate, Martin's sons might have chosen it b/c they are so familiar with it, given that Martin went to and played at Purdue (I believe). They may have been indoctrinated into love for Purdue, much as we indoctrinate our own kids to love Cal . THey may have had options that were "better" academically, but their comfort with and love for Purdue might have been the deciding factor in going there. So I don't know that the fact that they ended up at Purdue necessarily is an indicating factor as to their academic resume.

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Frankly, I don't much love the use of admissions preference for walking on a sports team, but all the teams have it and Tedford used it for his kid who played football. I think that is the difference. His kid was not in the general pool and would have been accepted if any coach had tagged him. Academic record also could be a difference. If the reports here are accurate, and I have no reason to believe them, that would have been a difference

CalLifer said:

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Again, I don't know the relative merits of Quinn Tedford vs. Martin's son, but from an optics perspective, it does seem really strange to draw the line at the son of an African American coach while not really caring about that line with the son of a white coach (and this was less than 10 years prior; while I assume that things have gotten more competitive, I wouldn't say it's as different as the late '80s vs. today).

It could well be that Tedford's son(s) were academic all-stars and Martin's son was leagues away from Cal, but if they were close at all, it seems really strange. And while Purdue may have a high acceptance rate, Martin's sons might have chosen it b/c they are so familiar with it, given that Martin went to and played at Purdue (I believe). They may have been indoctrinated into love for Purdue, much as we indoctrinate our own kids to love Cal . THey may have had options that were "better" academically, but their comfort with and love for Purdue might have been the deciding factor in going there. So I don't know that the fact that they ended up at Purdue necessarily is an indicating factor as to their academic resume.

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Frankly, I don't much love the use of admissions preference for walking on a sports team, but all the teams have it and Tedford used it for his kid who played football. I think that is the difference. His kid was not in the general pool and would have been accepted if any coach had tagged him. Academic record also could be a difference. If the reports here are accurate, and I have no reason to believe them, that would have been a difference

I will also say this again. The argument is stupid. Martin was offered a salary that there was no way Cal would match and frankly the sentiment on the board was very much that Missouri was overpaying and they could have him. Nothing was going overcome that for Cal. Martin may have been bitter but a happy Martin was not staying. Besides, he was bitter about a lot of things. It is very clear that neither Cal nor Martin did a proper due diligence about expectations of each when he took the job. Seems like a 5 minute conversation would have spared both sides a lot of grief as he wouldn't have come and we wouldn't have hired him.

AunBear89 said:

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dimitrig said:

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calumnus said:

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I guess two of Cuonzo's sons ended up at Purdue (his alma mater). Joshua was the one denied at Cal? His brother had Ivy offers. Purdue is a good school.
https://www.columbiatribune.com/story/sports/college/basketball/2021/02/11/purdues-chase-martin-son-mizzou-coach-cuonzo-martin-carving-own-path-familiar-territory/4335441001/

Campanelli's son, Kapp's son, Tedford's sons were all admitted. Why not Cuonzo's?

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Because Cal is harder to get into than Purdue?

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It's also harder to get in to Cal now than it was 10, 15, 20, etc. years ago.

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Damned right. MUCH harder.

OaktownBear said:

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CalLifer said:

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Again, I don't know the relative merits of Quinn Tedford vs. Martin's son, but from an optics perspective, it does seem really strange to draw the line at the son of an African American coach while not really caring about that line with the son of a white coach (and this was less than 10 years prior; while I assume that things have gotten more competitive, I wouldn't say it's as different as the late '80s vs. today).

It could well be that Tedford's son(s) were academic all-stars and Martin's son was leagues away from Cal, but if they were close at all, it seems really strange. And while Purdue may have a high acceptance rate, Martin's sons might have chosen it b/c they are so familiar with it, given that Martin went to and played at Purdue (I believe). They may have been indoctrinated into love for Purdue, much as we indoctrinate our own kids to love Cal . THey may have had options that were "better" academically, but their comfort with and love for Purdue might have been the deciding factor in going there. So I don't know that the fact that they ended up at Purdue necessarily is an indicating factor as to their academic resume.

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Frankly, I don't much love the use of admissions preference for walking on a sports team, but all the teams have it and Tedford used it for his kid who played football. I think that is the difference. His kid was not in the general pool and would have been accepted if any coach had tagged him. Academic record also could be a difference. If the reports here are accurate, and I have no reason to believe them, that would have been a difference

I will also say this again. The argument is stupid. Martin was offered a salary that there was no way Cal would match and frankly the sentiment on the board was very much that Missouri was overpaying and they could have him. Nothing was going overcome that for Cal. Martin may have been bitter but a happy Martin was not staying. Besides, he was bitter about a lot of things. It is very clear that neither Cal nor Martin did a proper due diligence about expectations of each when he took the job. Seems like a 5 minute conversation would have spared both sides a lot of grief as he wouldn't have come and we wouldn't have hired him.

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I don't disagree with any of these points, and you're right, maybe Tedford's son being a walk-on (and Campanelli's before him) had an impact on the decision.

I just thought it was surprising to hear when I remember other coaches' kids were admitted. If there were other FB/BB coaches whose kids were not admitted, then it's a non-issue. But we generally only hear about the ones where they were walk-ons to the team, so we don't have the full info .