4thGenCal said:

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HoopDreams said:

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4th Gen

Thanks for the write up. We aren't a blueblood like UCLA, AZ and now Oregon

We have high academic which reduces the pool who can qualify and require more study time/tougher grading for the student athletes

We are at the bottom of the conference with no momentum and a poor short term outlook

We don't have a dedicated practice facility

Sounds like we also don't have access to some other things such as chartered flights for recruiting and most away games

Our coaching staff is unremarkable on paper compared to many teams in the conference

We are not in a recruiting hotbed like the LA teams (although better than Oregon and Utah)

We don't have a massive sports sponsor like Nike for Oregon, and per your info we apparently lag in donations in general

Some of our immediate competitive peers (WSU, OSU, Colorado) seemly have left us at the station

Some pluses are we are a top academic school, although Stanford, UCLA and some could argue UW are in a similar stratosphere

We are in the Bay Area which is a cultural and business hub, in contrast to places like Pullman, Tuscan and Corvallis, although for most 17-22 year olds, the LA scene is better

We have a solid arena (maybe middle of the PAC)

In summary we are running at a deficit in every basketball related area, and our advantages are only secondary considerations for most recruits

So besides a new basketball practice facility which apparently not happening anytime soon, which of these deficits can we close or even turn into an advantage given our on court results this year are unlikely to create huge new momentum ala Oregon States run to the Elite Eight?

On thing I've advocated is to be the absolute best at social media. We launched a program but despite some nice features don't really stand out from other programs

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Totally agree with you on the need for better social media. The football team/recruiters have really stepped up their effort and its showing. One advantage that is not appreciated or known much is the private housing set up for the Hoops team. About 10 years ago a large group of donors (with Monty espousing the need for nearby housing, due to his players living farther away and thus often being late to practices etc) banded together and bought 2 properties per the NCAA regulations. The owner group has been reduced thru internal buyouts and one property remains. Its being professionally managed by a couple of lead donors and the rents are kept to the lower end of market(for both students and players) so that the scholarship funds can cover it and the ratio of students to student athletes is kept at a slightly higher required ratio as well. The site is secured with fences, exterior gate to keep out the homeless and also offers limited parking. Its unique in that the individual units are larger and appeal to the larger sized occupant. This is a recruiting advantage that puts families at ease of a safe, well maintained housing site very close to campus/Arena. Conversely the football due to large #'s, has an ongoing problem of housing all of their players w/in close proximity to the campus. Several players end up securing inexpensive housing, but farther away from campus (in tougher areas of Richmond and Oakland which saves them some monies that they end up sending home to help their families) This does hurt recruiting when competing with Oregon/Washington housing options for players. Again the difficult solution is finding a wealthy committed donor or donor's who could purchase a small to medium size convenient location housing option, close to campus for the some needed members of the football team.
Bottom line, Cal faces more recruiting hurdles than its conference foes and has to emphasize its few advantages and create new one's to even the competitive landscape.

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Bobodeluxe said:

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The ShockyDome is coming!

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WalterSobchak said:

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Bobodeluxe said:

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The ShockyDome is coming!

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You mock, but you're very close to the heart of the matter. The administration and major donors want control more than they want success. Under the right conditions "average" fans could easily eclipse major donors with their giving power. They don't want that. 4thG says we need $1M a year to be competitive. Do you know how easy that should be to hit, and even exceed? $1M is only 1000 $1,000 donors. You think there aren't 1000 Cal alums/fans who could afford to donate $1,000 a year if they were so inclined? You think you couldn't raise that much from them to support a Duke or UNC or Kentucky or Arizona or even Johnny-come-lately Gonzaga level program? You'd shatter it without even trying very hard. The thing about the average Cal alum is they make really good money. Way more than the average Oregon or Arizona or Kentucky alum. Nobody wants to donate because it's obviously an utter waste of money. You're donating into a black hole only to be told there's not enough to solve our problems. Only every single thing 4thG says holds Cal basketball back is blown up and proven false by a mere 4 letters: UCLA. Then he says we need a $20M "lead donor" for a practice facility. OK, so run a campaign to raise it. Make the donations specifically earmarked only for that project, and irrevocable only upon meeting the target. What's so hard about that? Instead we're told over and over no single donor or elite group is willing to pony up as if that's the only way people raise capital in this world. Hell the academic side even does crowdfunding. It's laughable.

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4thGenCal said:

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PtownBear1 said:

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4thGenCal said:

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Final point that was brought up about "playing out the string" nonsensical - no coach wants the public humiliation, emotional pain inflicted on their family and lessening respect amongst their peers. The staff is working appropriately hard with the players and in recruiting efforts. If they failure this season, it won't be to lack of effort. No excuses at all, while the league is much better than many acknowledge, Staff is at the end of the rope for assessment on a 4th year or not. Really hoping Jalen and Jarred become 100% healthy, Grant and Andre improve their strength and cardio respectively and Lars, Marsalis and the transfer provide solid minutes. Joel Brown will make the next step and improve. Lot of if's, but I am pulling for them hard and hope other's on the string, are supportive and come out to the games.

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I'm curious what you've actually witnessed that leads you to the conclusion that Fox is hard at work and hasn't mailed it in? Don't mean this in a jerky way, but genuinely asking.

There are many factors that would lead one to reasonably conclude Fox has mailed it in, such as complete lack of communication, lack of media participation, lack of fan engagement efforts, lack of recruiting results, lack of on the court results, loss of your best player, and most notably, not bothering to any make any staffing changes after two years of poor recruiting and suffering through the worst conference season in Cal history.

But what evidence is there that Fox hasn't mailed it in? Other than assumptions about being concerned with the respect of his peers.

Obviously, Fox still has to hold practices and go through the motions of recruiting and the like to avoid termination for breach of contract or negligence, but what has he actually done beyond this bare minimum? I mean he didn't even bother to spend the time to change a single position on his staff after a historic failure of a season.

And then there's also the failure to capitalize on the rare opportunity provided by the transfer portal this year. All you have to do is look around the conference and see the coaches that overhauled their teams and know who is actually making efforts to try to succeed.

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My responses to the questions posed and to be clear I am objective and firmly believe Fox/staff must show noticeable improvement in the W/L column to be retained. "Mailed it in"? Absolutely no - his schedule is packed from early morning well into the evening all things related to our program. Recent recruiting trip he did (no access to private planes that nearly All Power 5 conf HC have, had him in Atlanta watching a prospect play, drive 80 miles afterwards to catch a another kid play in Birmingham at 2pm, then at the conclusion of that game, drive back to Atlanta to catch 2 more games, finishing up at 10pm. Totally agree that is the life of a HC, but the time being put in, is not being cut back. 2) Practices are spirited and very energetic, Coach Fox is fiery and demanding, he and his staff bring it and demand the same from the players. 3) Loss of Bradley - agreed that is squarely on Fox. MB did commit his word during mid season,to coming back this coming season, but then changed his mind by entering the portal (Dad is extremely close to him/much like a best friend analogy and advisor) Fox was upset and told MB that his spot is of course his, should he change his mind, but he did not "re recruit" him via face to face meetings etc in his home town. There were some outbursts during the season both toward a assistant coach and various teammates, but really more so due to the extreme competitive nature and the weight of the losing and perception that bball meant more to him than a few teammates. 3) Recruiting efforts are consistent and they have been down to the wire on some key prospects, but whether it was academics (can't underestimate how difficult the bar is for Cal to accept the student under/around 3.0 gpa etc plus the other schools playing up the rigors of the academic load at Cal etc), lack of a practice facility, wanting extra benefits etc, those players were not closed. Regardless, too many misses on the players recruited frankly. 4) fan involvement or lack there of? Actually fine - Fox meets with the Excellence group supporters 3-4 times/during the season for breakfast and also hosts another get together whether at his house or a event on a larger scale for more supporters. I can't comment on Social media impressions/consistency, don't know. Media appearances are met as required. 5) Staff changes? Coach Johnson left voluntarily at the end of the season and the players greatly respected him - at 66 years old and not seeing his wife too much, he has returned to Texas. I would agree with you on mixing it up, but HC's have their trust developed and are confident in the teaching of their system by those who are hired and 2 seasons (with the last one being highly constricted and the team was beset by some key injuries to Grant, Matt, Jarred, Jalen and initially to Andre restricting his on court practice time) was not a clear indicator that his support assistants were detrimental.
Cal has one just one conf title in the past 60 years (roulette wheel has better odds) and we pull for the program because we are alums, cheer on the underdog, our competitive pride and the fun it is going to a game on campus that has a raucous environment. There are a number of obstacles fans (me included) don't fully appreciate and one that is glossed over, is that the funds raised privately while decent, are woefully behind the constant leaders in our conf. That matters as private planes allow much quicker and more effective responses, to effectively recruit plus allows more territory to be covered in the same time periods. Assistant coaches can be paid more, Players can miss less class time etc. Lack of a private gym is a huge factor for the prospect who believes the NBA/professional contract is a strong possibility. All issues we know, but the reality is Cal is running a race with weights on their shoulders plain and simple. Yes valid excuses - but not to finish dead last. The team has to produce this season - will be very telling and hopefully they can be healthy and compete even up.

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BeastBear69 said:

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I'm willing to bet there's more wins this year.

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BeastBear69 said:

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Did you watch the games? How far did Matt Bradley going 1 on 1 get us? Where does this style of basketball work anywhere in the country? This is how losing teams play my man. Watch and top team in our league. Do they play like this? Keeping Matt Bradley = exact same year. Losing him = a chance to better assess what we have in Fox and the rest of the team. Time will tell. I'm willing to bet there's more wins this year.

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Big C said:

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* while not one of the better all-around defenders I've seen, that block he had against Furd was positively epic

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4thGenCal said:

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stu said:

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Big C said:

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* while not one of the better all-around defenders I've seen, that block he had against Furd was positively epic

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That block, like Kevin Moen spiking the trombone player at the end of The Play, is something I'll never get tired of seeing again and again.

IMHO it's hard for one player much better (or worse) than everyone else to really fit in with a team. Unless it's Jason Kidd, but he was a PG and a once-in-a-generation talent.

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Well stated, and to support Matt here, he was an extremely respectful and well raised young man. Never an issue in the interactions I had/observed and always polite and well mannered. Regarding the couple of known flare ups with 2 separate teammates - nothing unusual that nearly every hoops program works through during the course of a tough season and or challenging/get after it practices. Never heard that "a few players would have left if he had stayed" - very doubtful, but I do know 2 players were very disappointed that he was leaving and did talk about leaving as well. Fortunately, both players stayed. Coach Johnson (very highly respected coach on the staff) was very disappointed that MB was leaving and others in the program/dept felt it was a significant loss. Regarding the opinion of "hero ball" etc, the lack of other consistent go to scorers was a key reason for Matt's departure (along with his perception that he was not developing additional skills to assist him to the next level). He felt there was too much emphasis on him to score and yes he often was forced to take the last shot with the shot clock running out. The team simply did not have others who could create their own shot in those moments.
True there is a good chance (health permitting) that the team wins more games than last year(too many key injuries at particularly inopportune times). But that is due to the entire team being older and more depth has arrived. The fair discussion is that with MB returning - i believe the team would have been better wins wise, than not. Regardless, hopefully the team soundly outperforms last year's dismal showing and MB has a stellar season for SDS.

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4thGenCal said:

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stu said:

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Big C said:

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* while not one of the better all-around defenders I've seen, that block he had against Furd was positively epic

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That block, like Kevin Moen spiking the trombone player at the end of The Play, is something I'll never get tired of seeing again and again.

IMHO it's hard for one player much better (or worse) than everyone else to really fit in with a team. Unless it's Jason Kidd, but he was a PG and a once-in-a-generation talent.

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Well stated, and to support Matt here, he was an extremely respectful and well raised young man. Never an issue in the interactions I had/observed and always polite and well mannered. Regarding the couple of known flare ups with 2 separate teammates - nothing unusual that nearly every hoops program works through during the course of a tough season and or challenging/get after it practices. Never heard that "a few players would have left if he had stayed" - very doubtful, but I do know 2 players were very disappointed that he was leaving and did talk about leaving as well. Fortunately, both players stayed. Coach Johnson (very highly respected coach on the staff) was very disappointed that MB was leaving and others in the program/dept felt it was a significant loss. Regarding the opinion of "hero ball" etc, the lack of other consistent go to scorers was a key reason for Matt's departure (along with his perception that he was not developing additional skills to assist him to the next level). He felt there was too much emphasis on him to score and yes he often was forced to take the last shot with the shot clock running out. The team simply did not have others who could create their own shot in those moments.
True there is a good chance (health permitting) that the team wins more games than last year(too many key injuries at particularly inopportune times). But that is due to the entire team being older and more depth has arrived. The fair discussion is that with MB returning - i believe the team would have been better wins wise, than not. Regardless, hopefully the team soundly outperforms last year's dismal showing and MB has a stellar season for SDS.

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philbert said:

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4thGenCal said:

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stu said:

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Big C said:

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* while not one of the better all-around defenders I've seen, that block he had against Furd was positively epic

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That block, like Kevin Moen spiking the trombone player at the end of The Play, is something I'll never get tired of seeing again and again.

IMHO it's hard for one player much better (or worse) than everyone else to really fit in with a team. Unless it's Jason Kidd, but he was a PG and a once-in-a-generation talent.

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Well stated, and to support Matt here, he was an extremely respectful and well raised young man. Never an issue in the interactions I had/observed and always polite and well mannered. Regarding the couple of known flare ups with 2 separate teammates - nothing unusual that nearly every hoops program works through during the course of a tough season and or challenging/get after it practices. Never heard that "a few players would have left if he had stayed" - very doubtful, but I do know 2 players were very disappointed that he was leaving and did talk about leaving as well. Fortunately, both players stayed. Coach Johnson (very highly respected coach on the staff) was very disappointed that MB was leaving and others in the program/dept felt it was a significant loss. Regarding the opinion of "hero ball" etc, the lack of other consistent go to scorers was a key reason for Matt's departure (along with his perception that he was not developing additional skills to assist him to the next level). He felt there was too much emphasis on him to score and yes he often was forced to take the last shot with the shot clock running out. The team simply did not have others who could create their own shot in those moments.
True there is a good chance (health permitting) that the team wins more games than last year(too many key injuries at particularly inopportune times). But that is due to the entire team being older and more depth has arrived. The fair discussion is that with MB returning - i believe the team would have been better wins wise, than not. Regardless, hopefully the team soundly outperforms last year's dismal showing and MB has a stellar season for SDS.

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Thanks for this response, 4thgen. That was my take as well. He had to try to score because no one else could/would take and make shots.

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BeastBear69 said:

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Matt Bradley being "super competitive" is a facade. That's what the naked eye sees. He was destructive to the team. A few guys wanted out but once they found out he was leaving they stayed. Team will be better without him.

To me it's actually incredible most people on here wanted him to stay. I wonder what would happen if he did Let me guess: he would play hero ball all game and we'd win a max of 10 games. It would be the same thing as last season. Now they have to play TEAM basketball for better or worse. Only way to go is up.

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HearstMining said:

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Big C said:

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BeastBear69 said:

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Did you watch the games? How far did Matt Bradley going 1 on 1 get us? Where does this style of basketball work anywhere in the country? This is how losing teams play my man. Watch and top team in our league. Do they play like this? Keeping Matt Bradley = exact same year. Losing him = a chance to better assess what we have in Fox and the rest of the team. Time will tell. I'm willing to bet there's more wins this year.

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I loved Bradley's strength and passion, but there is some truth to this. As a defender, he was pretty-good-at-best*. His assist/TO wasn't that great and he didn't seem to make the players around him better. I can imagine some returning players looking forward to a post-Bradley team. Well, here's their chance; they need to show something.


* while not one of the better all-around defenders I've seen, that block he had against Furd was positively epic

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Here's the truth, on a decent team Bradley is a good player but not a super standout. He's probably on the same level as Christopher, Theo, Shipp, but they all had better supporting casts which obscured their shortcomings. Next year when Cal's 3-pt shots are clanging off the rim, maybe you can pick up a SDSU game on TV and be surprised at how well-rounded Bradley's game has become.

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Come on guys, really? Cut the BS. Matt Bradley was the best player on the team. To put him down because in most occasions he was the only player capable of keeping Cal in a lot of games is ridiculous.

The only reason losing Matt Bradley this year is not considered a catastrophe is because of the INFERIOR TALENT AROUND HIM that's still left.

I watched Matt Bradley for 3 years. Trying to tell me that Bradley leaving Cal is a good thing for the team can only make me laugh. Totally insane.

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Come on guys, really? Cut the BS. Matt Bradley was the best player on the team. To put him down because in most occasions he was the only player capable of keeping Cal in a lot of games is ridiculous.

The only reason losing Matt Bradley this year is not considered a catastrophe is because of the INFERIOR TALENT AROUND HIM that's still left.

I watched Matt Bradley for 3 years. Trying to tell me that Bradley leaving Cal is a good thing for the team can only make me laugh. Totally insane.

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BeastBear69 said:

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Cal will be bad there's no doubt about that, but that's the case with or without Bradley. I'd rather see 4 guys get more usage and have an elevated role than see more of the exact same.

Berkeley will always be a hard place to recruit and will take a savvy coach to be successful here. You can't recruit the same as other power 5 schools and I don't sense that Fox and Co understand that

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CalLifer said:

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And, in a not very good look for Fox:

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stu said:

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CalLifer said:

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And, in a not very good look for Fox:

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This thread now has more than 100 posts. Add the number of posts in the "Dennis Gates" thread and the "Fox is now officially on the clock" thread and the total exceeds the last "NCAA Tournament" thread.

Not a very good look for Fox.

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