Why does Cal Recruit Poorly?

5,330 Views | 55 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by oskidunker
eastcoastcal
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Hey, new Cal fan here. It seems apparent to me that there's a pretty big talent dearth on our roster, and as alluded to in a lot of other posts, Fox doesn't seem to be great at recruiting.

I'm a new fan and wanted to get some perspective on why it is y'all believe Cal's recruiting has fallen behind Pac-12 competition. As I understand it, the lack of talent in recruiting caps the team's ceiling pretty harshly, and especially in college hoops, where 1 or 2 stars can lead a team a long way, it would seem that landing even one 5-star recruit would help a lot more than consistently fielding low-ceiling, unimpressive teams like in recent years.

I was wondering what it is exactly that this community believes are our deficiencies in attracting top-tier talent, and perhaps what great selling points of Berkeley are we not selling recruits on?
calumnus
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eastcoastcal said:

Hey, new Cal fan here. It seems apparent to me that there's a pretty big talent dearth on our roster, and as alluded to in a lot of other posts, Fox doesn't seem to be great at recruiting.

I'm a new fan and wanted to get some perspective on why it is y'all believe Cal's recruiting has fallen behind Pac-12 competition. As I understand it, the lack of talent in recruiting caps the team's ceiling pretty harshly, and especially in college hoops, where 1 or 2 stars can lead a team a long way, it would seem that landing even one 5-star recruit would help a lot more than consistently fielding low-ceiling, unimpressive teams like in recent years.

I was wondering what it is exactly that this community believes are our deficiencies in attracting top-tier talent, and perhaps what great selling points of Berkeley are we not selling recruits on?


Six years ago we had 3 McDonald''s All Americans on the team (and a 4th redshirting). We had a 4 seed based mostly on talent. There is nothing wrong with Cal recruiting that a good, charismatic coach cannot fix.

Fox has chased away more talent than he has attracted. His authoritarian coaching style and brutal style of play is not attractive to top recruits. He has power struggles with players that might have an idea of their own. He has no previous ties to California. He has fallen into his Georgia pattern: missing on the top or even second tier recruits and looking for overlooked diamonds and foreign players. Guys with athleticism but maybe not as skilled, then getting them to play aggressive man to man defense and complaining about the resulting foul call discrepancy when we lose.

Big C
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Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan! Here is what we're up against as far as recruiting...

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.

(In a post below, I identify some of our recruiting advantages. There actually are some.)
eastcoastcal
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Quote:

Six years ago we had 3 McDonald''s All Americans on the team (and a 4th redshirting). We had a 4 seed based mostly on talent. There is nothing wrong with Cal recruiting that a good, charismatic coach cannot fix.

Fox has chased away more talent than he has attracted. His authoritarian coaching style and brutal style of play is not attractive to top recruits. He has power struggles with players that might have an idea of their own. He has no previous ties to California. He has fallen into his Georgia pattern: missing on the top or even second tier recruits and looking for overlooked diamonds and foreign players. Guys with athleticism but maybe not as skilled, then getting them to play aggressive man to man defense and complaining about the resulting foul call discrepancy when we lose.



Thanks for the reply! This makes a lot of sense and explains a lot of the problems. While I am no basketball mastermind, one of the things I've observed with college hoops more so than a lot of other sports is that talent from high school really does correlate very highly with team success. In other words, while some diamonds in the rough might be found, generally a single 5-star seems to be far more impactful than recruiting several 3-stars and hoping they develop under the system.

Is there any solution? Or will we have to wait until Fox is given the boot, whenever that may be.
4thGenCal
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Big C said:


Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.
Excellent post and spot on. I would put the weakness of the staff as an important factor. Too many coaches in the profession while not slamming the staff, have said that the recruiting effectiveness is the responsibility of the assistants and its clear to them, the lack of quality of recruits is a key factor in the poor record under Fox. Most were not supporters of the staff. Fox grades out amongst the coaches as having solid coaching skills, ability to game prepare well and have his teams compete and not quit on him. All of your points are in my opinion, accurate and issues that Cal has not been able to overcome under the past 2 coaches(and other than couple of seasons under Monty and Cuonzo over the past 50+- years).
bearister
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Solution:

Get wealthy tech alums to pay top recruits $500,000 a year to advertise their products in strict compliance with NCAA NIL regulations, naturally.

Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
eastcoastcal
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Quote:

Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.
Haha thanks! Your points make sense. I read a few months back an ESPN article about the state of Pac-12 recruiting, and a lot of the interviewees echoed your thoughts. Are there any fixes you can forsee? Given how hard it is to develop stuff in Berkeley, I am unsure if there are any plans for a practice facility (if someone knows please clue me in) and I doubt Berkeley's rigor will subside anytime soon... I suppose for a lot of elite prospects who hope to be one-and-done, classes/academics aren't at the forefront of priorities. Interestingly, I recall Jaylen Brown liking Cal specifically because of some of the academic options.

I have also heard that Haas Pavilion can be incredible when packed... I loved the few games I've attended so far this year but definitely a lot of empty seats.
HoopDreams
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hey eastcoast ...

are you a student?

if so, bring some of your student friends to the game ... the students make for a great atmosphere and home court advantage
touchdownbears43
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- Mark Fox
- Mark Fox
- Mark Fox
- AD
- AD unable to attract/mobilize support from HNW alums
Big C
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eastcoastcal said:

Quote:

Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.
Haha thanks! Your points make sense. I read a few months back an ESPN article about the state of Pac-12 recruiting, and a lot of the interviewees echoed your thoughts. Are there any fixes you can forsee? Given how hard it is to develop stuff in Berkeley, I am unsure if there are any plans for a practice facility (if someone knows please clue me in) and I doubt Berkeley's rigor will subside anytime soon... I suppose for a lot of elite prospects who hope to be one-and-done, classes/academics aren't at the forefront of priorities. Interestingly, I recall Jaylen Brown liking Cal specifically because of some of the academic options.

I have also heard that Haas Pavilion can be incredible when packed... I loved the few games I've attended so far this year but definitely a lot of empty seats.

At some point, there will be a practice facility. Plans are formulating.

At some point, there will be a new coach. (I'm rooting for Fox to have some success for now.)

Haas will fill up more after pandemic fears subside and as we win more. Unfortunately, they seem to be going in the wrong direction in terms of making it a hot place for 10,000 people to watch a basketball game (seating to lure richest fans, not most avid).


We would be remiss if we did not mention Cal's advantages: Great area with great weather. Values that a lot of young people can get behind. Cal competes in the top athletic conference in the West, one that gets on TV a lot. The lure of a degree from the #1 ranked public university in the world, one that is known and respected throughout the world. Academic help for student-athletes who want that degree. A rare elite university that also has a proud athletic heritage, including many Olympians and national championships in multiple sports (including basketball!). The lure of being one of the players that finally helps a sleeping giant once again become a winner. And fans such as us!
sluggo
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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

eastcoastcal
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Quote:

hey eastcoast ...

are you a student?

if so, bring some of your student friends to the game ... the students make for a great atmosphere and home court advantage
Yep! I really liked the student section for the games I've gone to and its always fun when the section gets rowdy. Had a great experience at Haas for all my games so far.

Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
eastcoastcal
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.
eastcoastcal said:
Haha thanks! Your points make sense. I read a few months back an ESPN article about the state of Pac-12 recruiting, and a lot of the interviewees echoed your thoughts. Are there any fixes you can forsee? Given how hard it is to develop stuff in Berkeley, I am unsure if there are any plans for a practice facility (if someone knows please clue me in) and I doubt Berkeley's rigor will subside anytime soon... I suppose for a lot of elite prospects who hope to be one-and-done, classes/academics aren't at the forefront of priorities. Interestingly, I recall Jaylen Brown liking Cal specifically because of some of the academic options.

I have also heard that Haas Pavilion can be incredible when packed... I loved the few games I've attended so far this year but definitely a lot of empty seats.

At some point, there will be a practice facility. Plans are formulating.

At some point, there will be a new coach. (I'm rooting for Fox can have some success for now.)

Haas will fill up more after pandemic fears subside and as we win more. Unfortunately, they seem to be going in the wrong direction in terms of making it a hot place for 10,000 people to watch a basketball game (seating to lure richest fans, not most avid).


We would be remiss if we did not mention Cal's advantages: Great area with great weather. Values that a lot of young people can get behind. The lure of a degree from the #1 ranked public university in the world, one that is known and respected throughout the world. Academic help for student-athletes who want that degree. The lure of being the players that finally help a sleeping giant once again become a winner. And fans like us!
These are great points. Additionally, I wonder if any sort of pitch can be made to a star that if they were to come to Cal, (especially if they are an elite scoring threat, which it seems our roster lacks), that they could be "the guy" to to speak. It looks like defensively we can hold our own for the most part and we have some guys who can hold supporting roles but we sorely lack a star scorer. Wonder if theres a recruit who would be enamored by the chance to come in and get lots of playing time and scoring opportunities (possibly pitched with the angle that this would bring the star plenty of NBA visibility) surrounded by a supporting cast. I understand that there are probably plenty of programs across the nation that can make this kind of pitch to a prospect, but I feel like this angle at least gives us the edge of some of our conference rivals like UCLA, where there would definitely be competition for playing time & scoring opportunities.

In any case, I certainly agree that Cal has plenty of advantages and absolutely has the potential to recruit stars. I'm not exactly certain what the pipeline looks like in the bay (someone mentioned how we've lost our footing in the greater LA area) but it would seem to me that we are punching below our weight for an internationally acclaimed university located in an area with great weather. Plus, Haas Pavilion seems like a nice venue to me!
Golden One
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eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
Going back 5+ years under Cuonzo Martin and Mike Montgomery, when we had a very competitive team, attendance for conference games was very good. We'd typically get 10,000+ for games against Stanfurd, Arizona, UCLA, USC, and Oregon. Under these conditions when the game is competitive, Haas is wild and deafeningly loud. More recently, due to Covid and poor team performance, we haven't been close to that kind of environment. I long for a return to those days!
calumnus
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sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
Big C
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eastcoastcal said:

Quote:

hey eastcoast ...

are you a student?

if so, bring some of your student friends to the game ... the students make for a great atmosphere and home court advantage
Yep! I really liked the student section for the games I've gone to and its always fun when the section gets rowdy. Had a great experience at Haas for all my games so far.

Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).

This season is a perfect storm of "COVID-shy" and "no recent history of winning".
HoopDreams
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Yeah, Wilson is our west coast guy but he didn't have strong recruiting ties and doesn't have the personality

Then we have one recruiter for international which is the right strategy for Cal but so far has mixed results

Then we have a east coast recruiter who hasn't apparently successfully recruited any stars from the east, nor helped signed any of his prior recruits. Maybe he helped sign some of our grad transfers

Monty was tough on players and did not like recruiting, so he built his staff to complement him. Are Fox's staff complementing Fox's personality? That maybe a factor for whether we retain our better players (e.g. Celestine, 2K, Brown, Sam, etc)


calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
sluggo
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calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.
Civil Bear
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eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
calumnus
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sluggo said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.


Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?
stu
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Civil Bear said:

eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.
Civil Bear
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stu said:

Civil Bear said:

eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.
True, but I was referring to the early-ish days at Haas. Prior to losing 1/3 of the student section, prior to the floor seats, prior to 8pm starts, and prior to the team no longer being competitive.
calumnus
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HoopDreams said:

Yeah, Wilson is our west coast guy but he didn't have strong recruiting ties and doesn't have the personality

Then we have one recruiter for international which is the right strategy for Cal but so far has mixed results

Then we have a east coast recruiter who hasn't apparently successfully recruited any stars from the east, nor helped signed any of his prior recruits. Maybe he helped sign some of our grad transfers

Monty was tough on players and did not like recruiting, so he built his staff to complement him. Are Fox's staff complementing Fox's personality? That maybe a factor for whether we retain our better players (e.g. Celestine, 2K, Brown, Sam, etc)


calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.



Monty hated recruiting and was not friendly with the players, but increasingly, even before Cal he was delegating to his assistants (Trent Johnson at Stanford and DeCuire at Cal) and they would run the practices as he watched, mostly silently. He would gather everyone around and instruct, always informatively. He explained why they were to do something, he was teaching. Monty yelled during games, at Stanford mostly at the refs, at Cal he would T'd up. He was brutal on certain players during games. The Shove was the final straw. Increasingly during games Monty delegated in-game coaching of the players to DeCuire. He spent more time developing coaches than players and has an impressive coaching tree . He was/is smart, knew himself and knew his limitations. He was not a control freak.
BearSD
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stu said:

Civil Bear said:

eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.
Yup. If, before the Harmon-to-Haas remodel, the athletic department had been able to foresee the sport in 2022, the remodel would have kept approximately the Harmon seating capacity of 6,600, while creating premium seating for high-dollar donors, and maintained the loud, close-to-the-action atmosphere of Harmon.

With every game on TV today, and with half a dozen other games on TV on any given game night, there are too many other options for Bay Area fans to justify having nearly 12,000 seats.
calumnus
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BearSD said:

stu said:

Civil Bear said:

eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.
Yup. If, before the Harmon-to-Haas remodel, the athletic department had been able to foresee the sport in 2022, the remodel would have kept approximately the Harmon seating capacity of 6,600, while creating premium seating for high-dollar donors, and maintained the loud, close-to-the-action atmosphere of Harmon.

With every game on TV today, and with half a dozen other games on TV on any given game night, there are too many other options for Bay Area fans to justify having nearly 12,000 seats.


12,000 seats are not that many if you have a compelling product and the in person experience is great (and most importantly, we are not in the middle of a pandemic and gave a fan base that largely does not believe it is a hoax and wants to act responsibly).

The first order of business should be to restore the in person experience for the students. That means reclaiming for the student section seats that have been base into chair backs so the students are one continuous block that is right in the court, like old Harmon and Haas was originally. It should be opposite the TV cameras and the chair backs. . A lively student section makes for a better game environment for everyone. The sections immediately under the baskets should be GA, for young alumni, overflow for students, anybody who wants to stand and make noise. Maybe giveaway tickets to local HS teams? Definitely Berkeley City College, walking distance from Haas. Maybe some of the uppermost level gets converted to luxury boxes? With TVs and meal/beverage service?

Haas has good BART access. With the Warriors in SF. Cal just needs to create a compelling product for causal fans, especially families. I do think Friday night, Saturday night or Sunday afternoon is a better schedule for everyone, players, students, other in-person fans, TV audiences….
HoopDreams
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calumnus said:


The first order of business should be to restore the in person experience for the students. That means reclaiming for the student section seats that have been base into chair backs so the students are one continuous block that is right in the court, like old Harmon and Haas was originally. It should be opposite the TV cameras and the chair backs. . A lively student section makes for a better game environment for everyone. The sections immediately under the baskets should be GA, for young alumni, overflow for students, anybody who wants to stand and make noise.
+1000
Big C
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HoopDreams said:

calumnus said:


The first order of business should be to restore the in person experience for the students. That means reclaiming for the student section seats that have been base into chair backs so the students are one continuous block that is right in the court, like old Harmon and Haas was originally. It should be opposite the TV cameras and the chair backs. . A lively student section makes for a better game environment for everyone. The sections immediately under the baskets should be GA, for young alumni, overflow for students, anybody who wants to stand and make noise.
+1000

+1000 indeed. However, we seem to be going in the opposite direction: Just about each new season I show up at Haas, it looks like there are more "prime" areas set aside for the highest-paying fans, not the most avid (or "rabid", I should probably say). We are getting further and further away from the ambiance that was Harmon Gym.
HoopDreams
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I think they should convert some of those premium seats into open mini-suite type seats where there are small platforms with ledges, video screens and free rolling chairs (like the new OSU football stadium)

Right now premium seats just mean center court chair backs.

But I prefer being closer to the court than those chair backs high up

It would lower the capacity a little but I think that style seating would be more worth the high price and maybe even draw corporate buyers

We don't need the capacity except occasionally anyway

Then they can restore the sideline student section
diva1
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Cal needs to add an assistant from the Oakland Soldiers so we can tap into their pipeline as one of the best AAU programs in the country.
Or hire an assistant with some talented kids like USC with the Mobley brothers or Cuonzo at Missouri hiring Michael Porter Jrs Dad.
Braun tapped into the soldiers and is now or was involved in the program
bluesaxe
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calumnus said:

sluggo said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.


Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?
I disagree with that second sentence entirely. A real recruiter as an assistant can make a big difference. But that doesn't mean someone with a sales personality who doesn't go beyond identifying the guys who are consensus 4 and 5 stars. It means someone who really knows the scene (preferably in California) and not only who the obvious stars are but the guys who are blossoming late. It would also help to have the budget for recruiting some other schools have, especially internationally.
bluesaxe
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BearSD said:

stu said:

Civil Bear said:

eastcoastcal said:


Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).
There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.
I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.
Yup. If, before the Harmon-to-Haas remodel, the athletic department had been able to foresee the sport in 2022, the remodel would have kept approximately the Harmon seating capacity of 6,600, while creating premium seating for high-dollar donors, and maintained the loud, close-to-the-action atmosphere of Harmon.

With every game on TV today, and with half a dozen other games on TV on any given game night, there are too many other options for Bay Area fans to justify having nearly 12,000 seats.
When Haas was first opened that place was packed and loud as hell. When we won the conference it was packed and loud at least for the better teams and sold well for the rest. And when Martin put together a seriously good team, it was again packed and loud most nights. Those games were on TV too. It's a series of crappy coaches and crappy teams that killed it, not the number of seats. Gotta say, those 6:00 weeknight start times also contribute to the problems, but if the team is good and exciting people find ways to make that work.
Big C
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calumnus said:

sluggo said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.


Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure). [Edit: No, they did not coach together at Nevada or anywhere else. Great catch, Calumnus. However, they have been connected through a more complicated relationship for a number of years. See my post below in this thread.]

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your chances of success are marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

stu
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bluesaxe said:

When Haas was first opened that place was packed and loud as hell.
That's partly due to the crappy acoustics (excessive reverberation time). If it's not loud in an echo chamber then the fans are really dead.
calumnus
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Big C said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.


Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.




Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.
wifeisafurd
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calumnus said:

Big C said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

calumnus said:

sluggo said:

I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.




He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.
I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.


Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.




Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.
I'm surprised Cal has not recruited better international players given Cal's international reputation.
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