calumnus said:

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BearSD said:

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stu said:

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Civil Bear said:

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eastcoastcal said:

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Since this is my first season, I'm wondering if the attendance this year is in-line with other years or is it down this season? What was attendance like during Cal's better years or in years prior? The games are awesome but it definitely seems like a good amount of empty seats for most games (I understand expectations were low heading into this season though).

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There was a time UCLA players were envious of the environment at Haas.

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I suspect everyone envied Harmon. That place was crazy.

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Yup. If, before the Harmon-to-Haas remodel, the athletic department had been able to foresee the sport in 2022, the remodel would have kept approximately the Harmon seating capacity of 6,600, while creating premium seating for high-dollar donors, and maintained the loud, close-to-the-action atmosphere of Harmon.

With every game on TV today, and with half a dozen other games on TV on any given game night, there are too many other options for Bay Area fans to justify having nearly 12,000 seats.

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12,000 seats are not that many if you have a compelling product and the in person experience is great (and most importantly, we are not in the middle of a pandemic and gave a fan base that largely does not believe it is a hoax and wants to act responsibly).

The first order of business should be to restore the in person experience for the students. That means reclaiming for the student section seats that have been base into chair backs so the students are one continuous block that is right in the court, like old Harmon and Haas was originally. It should be opposite the TV cameras and the chair backs. . A lively student section makes for a better game environment for everyone. The sections immediately under the baskets should be GA, for young alumni, overflow for students, anybody who wants to stand and make noise. Maybe giveaway tickets to local HS teams? Definitely Berkeley City College, walking distance from Haas. Maybe some of the uppermost level gets converted to luxury boxes? With TVs and meal/beverage service?

Haas has good BART access. With the Warriors in SF. Cal just needs to create a compelling product for causal fans, especially families. I do think Friday night, Saturday night or Sunday afternoon is a better schedule for everyone, players, students, other in-person fans, TV audiences….

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The schedule is what it is because TV money is a priority.

I still would rather have an arena that is smaller and loud, and sold out more often, instead of one that will only be filled when the team wins big and the opponent is compelling.

It's a moot point because the university wouldn't spend the money now on an extensive retrofit even if the powers that be thought it was a good idea.

calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

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He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

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I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

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Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

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Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

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Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.

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Great catch! Correct, Fox and Wilson were never on the same staff before Cal. I was wrong about that and, indeed, Wilson was never at Nevada at all. Your post left me wondering if I might be losing it, because, in my mind, I was sure that Fox and Wilson had some sort of relationship over the years. But, darn it, what was it? Further research...

Wilson and Fox are both from the Tom Asbury "coaching tree".

Asbury was an Assistant at Pepperdine when Marty Wilson played there in the late 1980s. Wilson's senior year, Asbury was promoted to Head Coach of the Waves. He then hired the young Wilson to be an Assistant on his staff there.

Asbury then went on to be the HC at Kansas State, from 1994-2000. During that entire time, he had an Assistant there by the name of -- you guessed it -- Mark Fox.

In 2008 (after a stint as an Asst at Alabama), Asbury returned as the Head Coach at Pepperdine. Marty Wilson was the Associate HC on his staff and later succeeded him as HC there.

To sum up:

1) Asbury and Wilson both at Pepperdine from 1985-1994.
2) Asbury and Fox both at K State from 1994-2000.
3) Asbury and Wilson both at Pepperdine again from 2008-2011, with Wilson then taking over for him.

Fox and Wilson have both had a strong connection to Asbury for the last 25+ years. Ah, the coaching fraternity...

bluesaxe said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

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He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

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I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

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Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

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I disagree with that second sentence entirely. A real recruiter as an assistant can make a big difference. But that doesn't mean someone with a sales personality who doesn't go beyond identifying the guys who are consensus 4 and 5 stars. It means someone who really knows the scene (preferably in California) and not only who the obvious stars are but the guys who are blossoming late. It would also help to have the budget for recruiting some other schools have, especially internationally.

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I think this is 20 years behind the times. WIth the advent of the internet, scouting services, "handlers", NO ONE flies under the radar. What _IS_ the case is that good recruiters ID kids as early as 7/8th grade and start developing relationship.

Consider - no one wasn't aware that K Leonard was a Stud. But Steve F. had been on him since Frosh.

Fundamentally that is what you need from a recruiter. And one of the reasons cal is hard is that it is hard to know at that age whether the academics will work out.

wifeisafurd said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

---

He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

---

I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

---

Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

---

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

---

Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.

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I'm surprised Cal has not recruited better international players given Cal's international reputation.

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Agree. International players are generally more interested in academics.

It is probably also easier to lure them to California than to somewhere like Texas or Ohio.

I would think we would be able to field half a roster with quality ballers from the Europe.

eastcoastcal said:

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Quote:

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Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.

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eastcoastcal said:
Haha thanks! Your points make sense. I read a few months back an ESPN article about the state of Pac-12 recruiting, and a lot of the interviewees echoed your thoughts. Are there any fixes you can forsee? Given how hard it is to develop stuff in Berkeley, I am unsure if there are any plans for a practice facility (if someone knows please clue me in) and I doubt Berkeley's rigor will subside anytime soon... I suppose for a lot of elite prospects who hope to be one-and-done, classes/academics aren't at the forefront of priorities. Interestingly, I recall Jaylen Brown liking Cal specifically because of some of the academic options.

I have also heard that Haas Pavilion can be incredible when packed... I loved the few games I've attended so far this year but definitely a lot of empty seats.

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At some point, there will be a practice facility. Plans are formulating.

At some point, there will be a new coach. (I'm rooting for Fox can have some success for now.)

Haas will fill up more after pandemic fears subside and as we win more. Unfortunately, they seem to be going in the wrong direction in terms of making it a hot place for 10,000 people to watch a basketball game (seating to lure richest fans, not most avid).


We would be remiss if we did not mention Cal's advantages: Great area with great weather. Values that a lot of young people can get behind. The lure of a degree from the #1 ranked public university in the world, one that is known and respected throughout the world. Academic help for student-athletes who want that degree. The lure of being the players that finally help a sleeping giant once again become a winner. And fans like us!

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These are great points. Additionally, I wonder if any sort of pitch can be made to a star that if they were to come to Cal, (especially if they are an elite scoring threat, which it seems our roster lacks), that they could be "the guy" to to speak. It looks like defensively we can hold our own for the most part and we have some guys who can hold supporting roles but we sorely lack a star scorer. Wonder if theres a recruit who would be enamored by the chance to come in and get lots of playing time and scoring opportunities (possibly pitched with the angle that this would bring the star plenty of NBA visibility) surrounded by a supporting cast. I understand that there are probably plenty of programs across the nation that can make this kind of pitch to a prospect, but I feel like this angle at least gives us the edge of some of our conference rivals like UCLA, where there would definitely be competition for playing time & scoring opportunities.

In any case, I certainly agree that Cal has plenty of advantages and absolutely has the potential to recruit stars. I'm not exactly certain what the pipeline looks like in the bay (someone mentioned how we've lost our footing in the greater LA area) but it would seem to me that we are punching below our weight for an internationally acclaimed university located in an area with great weather. Plus, Haas Pavilion seems like a nice venue to me!

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That was the pitch essentially made to Matt Bradley and he decided to leave.

While SDSU is 10-3 and I am sure it is a lot more fun playing there than Cal right now, I don't think it helped his NBA prospects.

However, if he already realized he is a long shot for the NBA and his goal is to play in the NCAA Tournament at least once then he probably made a good move.

dimitrig said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

---

He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

---

I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

---

Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

---

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

---

Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.

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I'm surprised Cal has not recruited better international players given Cal's international reputation.

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Agree. International players are generally more interested in academics.

It is probably also easier to lure them to California than to somewhere like Texas or Ohio.

I would think we would be able to field half a roster with quality ballers from the Europe.

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Again, 20 years ago that might be true. Most Euros that will help you win are interested in a pro or NBA career. That doesn't preclude academics but I do not think there is that much variance. In addition, you add in that the load at Cal is probably HARDER for a kid possibly studying in a second language.

dimitrig said:

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eastcoastcal said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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Pretty amazing that we have at least one new fan!

Cal:
- some recruits aren't going to be eligible for admission
- the word is out: there will be serious academic work involved
- no dedicated practice facility
- no recent history of a great fan base who will pack the place and make players feel special

Fox:
- decent guy, but lacks the charisma and style that young men gravitate towards
- decent coach, but lacks the obvious trajectory of a sure winner
- style of play not inherently attractive to young stars
- lacks the staff that can succeed in what should be one of our bread-n-butter recruiting areas... greater LA

Also, if you want a car and some cash, at Cal, you're 30 years too late.

---

eastcoastcal said:
Haha thanks! Your points make sense. I read a few months back an ESPN article about the state of Pac-12 recruiting, and a lot of the interviewees echoed your thoughts. Are there any fixes you can forsee? Given how hard it is to develop stuff in Berkeley, I am unsure if there are any plans for a practice facility (if someone knows please clue me in) and I doubt Berkeley's rigor will subside anytime soon... I suppose for a lot of elite prospects who hope to be one-and-done, classes/academics aren't at the forefront of priorities. Interestingly, I recall Jaylen Brown liking Cal specifically because of some of the academic options.

I have also heard that Haas Pavilion can be incredible when packed... I loved the few games I've attended so far this year but definitely a lot of empty seats.

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At some point, there will be a practice facility. Plans are formulating.

At some point, there will be a new coach. (I'm rooting for Fox can have some success for now.)

Haas will fill up more after pandemic fears subside and as we win more. Unfortunately, they seem to be going in the wrong direction in terms of making it a hot place for 10,000 people to watch a basketball game (seating to lure richest fans, not most avid).


We would be remiss if we did not mention Cal's advantages: Great area with great weather. Values that a lot of young people can get behind. The lure of a degree from the #1 ranked public university in the world, one that is known and respected throughout the world. Academic help for student-athletes who want that degree. The lure of being the players that finally help a sleeping giant once again become a winner. And fans like us!

---

These are great points. Additionally, I wonder if any sort of pitch can be made to a star that if they were to come to Cal, (especially if they are an elite scoring threat, which it seems our roster lacks), that they could be "the guy" to to speak. It looks like defensively we can hold our own for the most part and we have some guys who can hold supporting roles but we sorely lack a star scorer. Wonder if theres a recruit who would be enamored by the chance to come in and get lots of playing time and scoring opportunities (possibly pitched with the angle that this would bring the star plenty of NBA visibility) surrounded by a supporting cast. I understand that there are probably plenty of programs across the nation that can make this kind of pitch to a prospect, but I feel like this angle at least gives us the edge of some of our conference rivals like UCLA, where there would definitely be competition for playing time & scoring opportunities.

In any case, I certainly agree that Cal has plenty of advantages and absolutely has the potential to recruit stars. I'm not exactly certain what the pipeline looks like in the bay (someone mentioned how we've lost our footing in the greater LA area) but it would seem to me that we are punching below our weight for an internationally acclaimed university located in an area with great weather. Plus, Haas Pavilion seems like a nice venue to me!

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That was the pitch essentially made to Matt Bradley and he decided to leave.

While SDSU is 10-3 and I am sure it is a lot more fun playing there than Cal right now, I don't think it helped his NBA prospects.

However, if he already realized he is a long shot for the NBA and his goal is to play in the NCAA Tournament at least once then he probably made a good move.

---

I think his NBA prospects are essentially solely a function of how he does at the combines/try outs.

socaltownie said:

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dimitrig said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

---

He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

---

I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

---

Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

---

Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

---

Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.

---

I'm surprised Cal has not recruited better international players given Cal's international reputation.

---

Agree. International players are generally more interested in academics.

It is probably also easier to lure them to California than to somewhere like Texas or Ohio.

I would think we would be able to field half a roster with quality ballers from the Europe.

---

Again, 20 years ago that might be true. Most Euros that will help you win are interested in a pro or NBA career. That doesn't preclude academics but I do not think there is that much variance. In addition, you add in that the load at Cal is probably HARDER for a kid possibly studying in a second language.

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I don't think focusing on recruiting internationally is a winning strategy. It only works if you have really good talent evaluators on staff. The best international players are playing professionally. The rest are hard to evaluate because you don't really get to see them play in person much, if ever, and it's hard to see how prospects stack up when you don't have a sense of the competition.

I think only Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

concernedparent said:

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socaltownie said:

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dimitrig said:

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wifeisafurd said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

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He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

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I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

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Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

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Retaining Wilson wasn't a "head scratcher": He and Fox used to work together (Nevada, I'm pretty sure).

I'm not saying the reason he is on staff is that he's Fox's buddy, but rather people tend to want to work with those who they feel comfortable with (and may even overrate their capabilities). Very common for coaches to hire guys for their staff who they know and enjoy working with. Heck, half of Cuonzo Martin's staff was like that. It's also difficult to let a guy like that go. I know, a boss has to be ruthless, but that's reality sometimes.

The problem of course, is that when your possibility of succeeding is marginal, you can't afford to not have the very best staff possible. Just imagine, if we had snagged even a couple more Top 150-level recruits, how much better our team might be, both this year and next. A coach in Fox's situation can't afford to not maximize every tool at their disposal.

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Marty Wilson's coaching resume (assistant unless otherwise noted):
Simi Valley HS
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (Interim HC)
San Diego
UC Santa Barbara
Utah
Pepperdine
Pepperdine (HC)
Cal

Other than his 4 years at Utah he has always worked in SoCal, mostly at Pepperdine, his alma mater, where following the 4 years at Utah he was associate HC for 3 years then HC for 7 years.

There is no overlap with Fox on the same staff I can see. Pepperdine did play at Georgia in 2009, Fox's first year as HC there. Wilson was Associate HC, so that could be the connection. They were likely at least acquainted.

The bottom line is Wikson is a 55 year old (two years older than Fox), former HC from Pacoima, fired from his last HC gig, who has always recruited SoCal. You could imagine that Fox both felt comfortable with him and felt that he filled a need. Both recruiting new talent from SoCal and in retaining the talent that was on the roster, with an idea of the lay of the land at Cal as well. It made sense.

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I'm surprised Cal has not recruited better international players given Cal's international reputation.

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Agree. International players are generally more interested in academics.

It is probably also easier to lure them to California than to somewhere like Texas or Ohio.

I would think we would be able to field half a roster with quality ballers from the Europe.

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Again, 20 years ago that might be true. Most Euros that will help you win are interested in a pro or NBA career. That doesn't preclude academics but I do not think there is that much variance. In addition, you add in that the load at Cal is probably HARDER for a kid possibly studying in a second language.

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I don't think focusing on recruiting internationally is a winning strategy. It only works if you have really good talent evaluators on staff. The best international players are playing professionally. The rest are hard to evaluate because you don't really get to see them play in person much, if ever, and it's hard to see how prospects stack up when you don't have a sense of the competition.

I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

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Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

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Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

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Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

BeachedBear said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

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Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

---

Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

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There must be another Jakob Poetl out there?

BeachedBear said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

---

Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

---

Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

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BeachedBear, I thought there were supposed to be a lot of good youth development programs in the more hoops-crazed countries in Europe, no?

How's China doing lately, vis-a-vis basketball? I know we made that China trip a few years ago and "Berkeley" is known and respected there. I'm thinking with all those people, there must be some good players, right?

BeachedBear said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

---

Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

---

Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

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does Canada qualify for our int'l recruit definition?

Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

---

Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

---

Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

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How's China doing lately, vis-a-vis basketball? I know we made that China trip a few years ago and "Berkeley" is known and respected there. I'm thinking with all those people, there must be some good players, right?

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You'd think, but no. In a sport where height and athleticism are prerequisites to playing high level ball, a model that picks kids from a really young age for rigorous training often misses the growth spurts and explosive athleticism that accompany puberty. Second, a culture that de-emphasizes sports outside of those academies is not going to allow "later" bloomers to make it. If you don't get picked up as a kid, you're probably spending your teenage years studying hard in school or working. Compare in the US where kids with marginal D1 talent are often transferring schools, taking prep years, all while playing AAU ball year round.

socaltownie said:

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bluesaxe said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

---

He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

---

I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

---

Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

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I disagree with that second sentence entirely. A real recruiter as an assistant can make a big difference. But that doesn't mean someone with a sales personality who doesn't go beyond identifying the guys who are consensus 4 and 5 stars. It means someone who really knows the scene (preferably in California) and not only who the obvious stars are but the guys who are blossoming late. It would also help to have the budget for recruiting some other schools have, especially internationally.

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I think this is 20 years behind the times. WIth the advent of the internet, scouting services, "handlers", NO ONE flies under the radar. What _IS_ the case is that good recruiters ID kids as early as 7/8th grade and start developing relationship.

Consider - no one wasn't aware that K Leonard was a Stud. But Steve F. had been on him since Frosh.

Fundamentally that is what you need from a recruiter. And one of the reasons cal is hard is that it is hard to know at that age whether the academics will work out.

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I agree with a lot of that but I think you overrate the recruiting services in a big way. OK, Kawhi was ranked 57th in 2009. Khris Middleton wasn't even a top 100 ranked recruit. Alec Burks was ranked 194th in that class. And they aren't good at identifying late bloomers at all. If they mention them they are a trailing indicator, and that doesn't help. You need the guy who sees it early, your example, or who sees something that can be developed that hasn't been yet. My focus on late blooming players is that for the foreseeable future Cal isn't going to be able to compete for the guys that everyone knows are studs, even if they're early, unless the coach either has an established track record (takes a while) or is VERY dynamic (which seems to scare the Cal AD).

Big C said:

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BeachedBear said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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I think only is Klonaras and Thiemann are the true international recruits (Grant is Wyking's recruit, KD hasn't arrived yet), and the returns aren't great. All the other guys prepped in the US even if they grew up elsewhere.

---

Plus 1. International kids get that label in part for marketing purposes. If they can play bb and are interested they likely have been at US prep school for at least a year, if not longer.

---

Plus Plus 1. Like other aspects, European recruiting has changed ALOT in the last 20 years. Old methodology will result in many Klonaris clones and an occasional Thieman. In other words, not P12 level talent, but kids looking to get a Cal degree,

An exception may be Australia, where they have a pretty effective semi-pro and development program for basketball. A number of WCC schools are already into this pipeline. But like the Euros, the best will prep here in the US or simply go pro while in high school (Luka Doncic).

---

BeachedBear, I thought there were supposed to be a lot of good youth development programs in the more hoops-crazed countries in Europe, no?

How's China doing lately, vis-a-vis basketball? I know we made that China trip a few years ago and "Berkeley" is known and respected there. I'm thinking with all those people, there must be some good players, right?

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In Euro Basketball, the youth development programs are similar to soccer. They are there, but bypass the high-school/college emphasis that has been part of US. Option 1 - work out and play with a pro club while in secondary school and go Pro. Option 2 - same start, but go to a US prep school to either spend a year at a TOP US bball college and go pro. Option 3 - same start, realize there is minimal pro potential and try and get the best degree you can and hope you are a late bloomer.

bluesaxe said:

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socaltownie said:

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bluesaxe said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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calumnus said:

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sluggo said:

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I am not looking at recruiting stats, but I do think Cal's recruiting under Mark Fox is worse than all of the previous six coaches going back to when I was an undergrad and Lou Campanelli was the coach. Cal has rarely recruited in the top 50, but now they cannot recruit in the top 150 and are taking players who would otherwise be playing in the Big Sky. Most of those players who were good but not great were from greater Los Angeles, where Cal no longer seems to have any presence. Fox has shown this year that he can squeeze some wins out of a low talent roster, but we will have to wait for the next coach to recruit even middle of the conference. It is amazing that he has not turned over his poor recruiting assistants and that he has not hired an assistant with strong west coast connections.

---

He retained Marty Wilson from Wyking Jones' staff as the "West Coast guy."

While I think his assistants could be better recruiters, and specifically better recruiters for Cal, I honestly think the limitation is what they are selling. It was Fox's problem at Georgia too. A good recruiter in the portal era is honest with kids, not a snake oil salesman. End of the day, the players are playing for the head coach. He's the one who has to close the deal. Monty had issues with that, but at least he could sell that he was a Hall of Fame coach who had gotten his teams to a Final Four and number 1 rankings.

---

I know Wilson is from the west coast but the connections seem to be lacking. His retention was a real head scratcher. In any case, if you are recruiting at the bottom of the conference every year, you have to change something. It can't get worse when you are at the bottom.

---

Agree about Wilson, Fox probably kept him because his own West Coast connections were so bad he had no one else. I do think changing assistants is like rearranging the deck chairs.

Trent Johnson left, was his position ever filled?

---

I disagree with that second sentence entirely. A real recruiter as an assistant can make a big difference. But that doesn't mean someone with a sales personality who doesn't go beyond identifying the guys who are consensus 4 and 5 stars. It means someone who really knows the scene (preferably in California) and not only who the obvious stars are but the guys who are blossoming late. It would also help to have the budget for recruiting some other schools have, especially internationally.

---

I think this is 20 years behind the times. WIth the advent of the internet, scouting services, "handlers", NO ONE flies under the radar. What _IS_ the case is that good recruiters ID kids as early as 7/8th grade and start developing relationship.

Consider - no one wasn't aware that K Leonard was a Stud. But Steve F. had been on him since Frosh.

Fundamentally that is what you need from a recruiter. And one of the reasons cal is hard is that it is hard to know at that age whether the academics will work out.

---

I agree with a lot of that but I think you overrate the recruiting services in a big way. OK, Kawhi was ranked 57th in 2009. Khris Middleton wasn't even a top 100 ranked recruit. Alec Burks was ranked 194th in that class. And they aren't good at identifying late bloomers at all. If they mention them they are a trailing indicator, and that doesn't help. You need the guy who sees it early, your example, or who sees something that can be developed that hasn't been yet. My focus on late blooming players is that for the foreseeable future Cal isn't going to be able to compete for the guys that everyone knows are studs, even if they're early, unless the coach either has an established track record (takes a while) or is VERY dynamic (which seems to scare the Cal AD).

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good post blue. haven't seen you around as much lately

there are plenty of players that fly under the radar that would be strong additions to Cal, but not future NBA players

Sheperd is a good recent example.
I've seen at least one player on every OCC team we've played that would help Cal as a starter or rotation player.

OSU and WSU and others have at least one player who were unrecruited players who those teams identified, or were transfers in from mid-majors, and several of those schools have identified and signed international players that are major talents

We haven't yet but we might.


https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/maurice-purley/S6wiO1LDEeyA2wJt_kT-Ug/default.htm

oskidunker said:

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We haven't yet but we might.


https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/maurice-purley/S6wiO1LDEeyA2wJt_kT-Ug/default.htm

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?

Civil Bear said:

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oskidunker said:

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We haven't yet but we might.


https://www.maxpreps.com/athlete/maurice-purley/S6wiO1LDEeyA2wJt_kT-Ug/default.htm

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?

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The guys name is poorly but spelled different. Its a joke, maybe a poor one.