From a Pac-12 analysis by the East Bay Times: https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/02/01/pac-12-power-ratings-as-uw-climbs-the-standings-mike-hopkins-return-looks-inevitable/

Comment: Welcome to the league's basement, which is currently at full occupancy and, if we're being honest, probably should be condemned.

Followed by brief descriptions of the woes of ASU (9), Cal (10), Utah (11), and OSU (12). None of the last three have more than two conference wins or have won since Jan 2.

stu said:

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From a Pac-12 analysis by the East Bay Times: https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2022/02/01/pac-12-power-ratings-as-uw-climbs-the-standings-mike-hopkins-return-looks-inevitable/

Comment: Welcome to the league's basement, which is currently at full occupancy and, if we're being honest, probably should be condemned.

Followed by brief descriptions of the woes of ASU (9), Cal (10), Utah (11), and OSU (12). None of the last three have more than two conference wins or have won since Jan 2.

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WSU at #4 could have been us. Maybe better.

stu said:

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Maybe Montgomery just hated sales. I can understand that.

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And Bill Walsh just loved them? MM was a great coach but maybe one of the reasons for his ceiling (and we all have our ceiling, and his was pretty high) lies in this story.

calumnus said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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stu said:

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Maybe Montgomery just hated sales. I can understand that.

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And Bill Walsh just loved them? MM was a great coach but maybe one of the reasons for his ceiling (and we all have our ceiling, and his was pretty high) lies in this story.

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Yeah, can you imagine a CEO who "doesn't like sales"? Who doesn't care what the customer wants? (Actually, that was Steve Jobs, not a bad comparison).

It is the guy who is a master craftsman or great artist, who is all about the craft, or art. He absolutely will not self-promote. He is content to toil in obscurity, He had huge success at one point when word of mouth brought him wealth and fame, he was almost perplexed by it. He just kept in his workshop, working on his craft.

MM is at heart a great HS coach (from years past). Just see who shows up for tryouts and then teach those guys some skills, how to play basketball as a team and turn them into State Champions.

He is a teacher who doesn't love his students so much as he loves the subject he is teaching. Like the professor in the Paper Chase.

It was a good model in the past, but is not a good model for Cal in the present era.

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It would suggest he should have done better in the NBA. But I imagine a lot of his interpersonal tactics simply
didn't fly there.

GMP said:

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calumnus said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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stu said:

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Maybe Montgomery just hated sales. I can understand that.

---

And Bill Walsh just loved them? MM was a great coach but maybe one of the reasons for his ceiling (and we all have our ceiling, and his was pretty high) lies in this story.

---

Yeah, can you imagine a CEO who "doesn't like sales"? Who doesn't care what the customer wants? (Actually, that was Steve Jobs, not a bad comparison).

It is the guy who is a master craftsman or great artist, who is all about the craft, or art. He absolutely will not self-promote. He is content to toil in obscurity, He had huge success at one point when word of mouth brought him wealth and fame, he was almost perplexed by it. He just kept in his workshop, working on his craft.

MM is at heart a great HS coach (from years past). Just see who shows up for tryouts and then teach those guys some skills, how to play basketball as a team and turn them into State Champions.

He is a teacher who doesn't love his students so much as he loves the subject he is teaching. Like the professor in the Paper Chase.

It was a good model in the past, but is not a good model for Cal in the present era.

---

It would suggest he should have done better in the NBA. But I imagine a lot of his interpersonal tactics simply
didn't fly there.

---

I would imagine it is difficult to coach in today's NBA. You have to try and get players to listen to you, many of whom who have been told all their lives how great they are, and who think they know more than you do, and nearly all of whom make more money than you do. You have to really coddle these players, spoil them further, to get them to buy in, I would expect.

College is also a difficult place for a coach to try and get players to listen, for the first two reasons above, along with having to convince them to go to class and do their homework. You also have to beg these prima donnas to come and play for you, and if you convince them of that, you have to beg them to stay with you. Once schools begin to pay players, if it is not strictly controlled, and open bidding begins, coaches with the smaller recruiting budgets will really be challenged to recruit without cutting even more corners. I think we are close to that already.

Just for ****s and giggles, I started doing what I expect Knowlton has one of his staffers doing - that is put together an actual list. First thing I did was get the top 100 schools by NET at Feb 3rd. For reference, the bottom 10 of that list include: Maryland, Stanford, Syracuse, Colorado, Virginia, St Johns . . .

Next I split the list between P5 conferences (which warrant looking at a top assistant) and Mid Majors to look at their head coaches. For obvious reasons, I included programs like Gonzaga and Wichita St as P5. Here are the top NET coaches at NON P5 schools:

Kelvin Sampson
Matt McMahon
Leon Rice
Drew Valentine
Mark Pope
Jeff Linder
Todd Golden
Nike Medved
Ryan Odom
Brian Dutcher

Could Cal attract any of these guys? Why or why not? I know a bit about a few of them, nothing about most of them. What do other know/feel?

BTW this took me about 5 minutes to do. If I get more ambitions I can look for top assistants at P5 programs.

SFCityBear said:

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GMP said:

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calumnus said:

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82gradDLSdad said:

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stu said:

---

Maybe Montgomery just hated sales. I can understand that.

---

And Bill Walsh just loved them? MM was a great coach but maybe one of the reasons for his ceiling (and we all have our ceiling, and his was pretty high) lies in this story.

---

Yeah, can you imagine a CEO who "doesn't like sales"? Who doesn't care what the customer wants? (Actually, that was Steve Jobs, not a bad comparison).

It is the guy who is a master craftsman or great artist, who is all about the craft, or art. He absolutely will not self-promote. He is content to toil in obscurity, He had huge success at one point when word of mouth brought him wealth and fame, he was almost perplexed by it. He just kept in his workshop, working on his craft.

MM is at heart a great HS coach (from years past). Just see who shows up for tryouts and then teach those guys some skills, how to play basketball as a team and turn them into State Champions.

He is a teacher who doesn't love his students so much as he loves the subject he is teaching. Like the professor in the Paper Chase.

It was a good model in the past, but is not a good model for Cal in the present era.

---

It would suggest he should have done better in the NBA. But I imagine a lot of his interpersonal tactics simply
didn't fly there.

---

I would imagine it is difficult to coach in today's NBA. You have to try and get players to listen to you, many of whom who have been told all their lives how great they are, and who think they know more than you do, and nearly all of whom make more money than you do. You have to really coddle these players, spoil them further, to get them to buy in, I would expect.

College is also a difficult place for a coach to try and get players to listen, for the first two reasons above, along with having to convince them to go to class and do their homework. You also have to beg these prima donnas to come and play for you, and if you convince them of that, you have to beg them to stay with you. Once schools begin to pay players, if it is not strictly controlled, and open bidding begins, coaches with the smaller recruiting budgets will really be challenged to recruit without cutting even more corners. I think we are close to that already.

---

A lot of the NBA is about...

1. getting buy-in and
2. ego management

Steve Kerr has great people skills, but if it wasn't for his NBA career, the pros would never have started listening to him. The Warrior players probably largely tuned Monty out, unfortunately, and it must've really irked him. Too bad, but when you're coaching guys in their 20s who are making millions, that's the way it is.

BeachedBear said:

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Just for ****s and giggles, I started doing what I expect Knowlton has one of his staffers doing - that is put together an actual list. First thing I did was get the top 100 schools by NET at Feb 3rd. For reference, the bottom 10 of that list include: Maryland, Stanford, Syracuse, Colorado, Virginia, St Johns . . .

Next I split the list between P5 conferences (which warrant looking at a top assistant) and Mid Majors to look at their head coaches. For obvious reasons, I included programs like Gonzaga and Wichita St as P5. Here are the top NET coaches at NON P5 schools:

Kelvin Sampson
Matt McMahon
Leon Rice
Drew Valentine
Mark Pope
Jeff Linder
Todd Golden
Nike Medved
Ryan Odom
Brian Dutcher

Could Cal attract any of these guys? Why or why not? I know a bit about a few of them, nothing about most of them. What do other know/feel?

BTW this took me about 5 minutes to do. If I get more ambitions I can look for top assistants at P5 programs.

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You had me at top 100 schools by net. I would literally take any of those coaches over Fox

Here's the next 10 Non P5 Head Coaches in top 100 programs:

Casey Alexander
Andy Kennedy
Bob McKillop
Grant McCasland
Justin Hutson
Lamont Paris
Rick Pitino
Travis Ford
Anthony Grant
Tod Kowalczyk

There are 16 others coming . . . Not to mention the 74 P5 Programs that just might have a capable assistant looking for a P5 head coaching position.

Why not a coach from a successful women's program, such as Kelly Graves from Oregon or Jeff Walz from Louisville. And why not a female head coach? After all, Berkeley is always the social trend setter!

polarbear said:

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Why not a coach from a successful women's program, such as Kelly Graves from Oregon or Jeff Walz from Louisville. And why not a female head coach? After all, Berkeley is always the social trend setter!

---

I think that's a wonderful idea and suggested Becky Hammon a while ago - but her sights seem to be aimed much higher. I really don't think Cal is the social trend setter to be the first though. My guess is it will be at a mid-major program before it hits the Pac 12 or other power conference.

As discussed before, successful college coaching consists of X's & O's, player development, campus/community outreach and most importantly recruiting. I see absolutely no reason a woman can not be successful in the first three. And as for the most important item - recruiting, let me remind everyone of two facts.

1. The key to Lute Olsen's recruiting success was his wife Bobbi, who died in 2001. Ask any of his players from that era to get the deets.

2. USC has recruited very well since Enfield's wife took over

there is a good chance we don't win another game so I am assuming that this thread could become relevent. Hard to see how he keeps his job if we lose 18 straight. The pplayers will revolt and hopefully force JK's hand,

socaltownie said:

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there is a good chance we don't win another game so I am assuming that this thread could become relevent. Hard to see how he keeps his job if we lose 18 straight. The pplayers will revolt and hopefully force JK's hand,

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My guess is that we somehow find a way to win 1 or two of the remaining games and hit that magical double-digit wins level that makes this a satisfactory year in the eyes of the AD. I mean, as long as we don't match Wyking Jones' 16-game losing streak, that's a clear sign of progress in Mark Fox's third year, right?

socaltownie said:

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CalLifer said:

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socaltownie said:

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there is a good chance we don't win another game so I am assuming that this thread could become relevent. Hard to see how he keeps his job if we lose 18 straight. The pplayers will revolt and hopefully force JK's hand,

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My guess is that we somehow find a way to win 1 or two of the remaining games and hit that magical double-digit wins level that makes this a satisfactory year in the eyes of the AD. I mean, as long as we don't match Wyking Jones' 16-game losing streak, that's a clear sign of progress in Mark Fox's third year, right?

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Really only OSU and Colorado are maybe's. I mean we could shock the world but that is all I see on the schedule and that is going to depend on Kelly coming back. Absent him more games like last night.

I now have concluded that while Fox might be a good teacher (cause there has been improvement in certain player's game and the team isn't poorly coached) he can't not evaluate talent. I have a hard time believing this is the best that is out there that is Cal qualified - this is BDW level talent and it is not getting any better next year.

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I totally agree with you, and I may not have been snarky enough to make it clear that my last response was all snark . Independent of whether we somehow win a couple games the rest of the year, I just don't think it could be any more apparent that a change in coach is absolutely needed. I also think, however, that the AD is doing a great job completely ignoring the basketball program, and the people (insiders?) who think that Mark Fox is 100% going to be the coach next year are probably right.

socaltownie said:

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CalLifer said:

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socaltownie said:

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there is a good chance we don't win another game so I am assuming that this thread could become relevent. Hard to see how he keeps his job if we lose 18 straight. The pplayers will revolt and hopefully force JK's hand,

---

My guess is that we somehow find a way to win 1 or two of the remaining games and hit that magical double-digit wins level that makes this a satisfactory year in the eyes of the AD. I mean, as long as we don't match Wyking Jones' 16-game losing streak, that's a clear sign of progress in Mark Fox's third year, right?

---

Really only OSU and Colorado are maybe's. I mean we could shock the world but that is all I see on the schedule and that is going to depend on Kelly coming back. Absent him more games like last night.

I now have concluded that while Fox might be a good teacher (cause there has been improvement in certain player's game and the team isn't poorly coached) he can't not evaluate talent. I have a hard time believing this is the best that is out there that is Cal qualified - this is BDW level talent and it is not getting any better next year.

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Not sure if he can't evaluate talent or if he can't attract and close on talent. Regardless, the result is the same. I love the Cal players and root for them, but we just can't compete with most of the conference for 40 minutes.

mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

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We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

calumnus said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

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I am afraid we will. Knowlton was fine with a bottom dwelling basketball program at Air Force. He was fine with Jones, until insiders raised Cain and from what we can tell insiders are making excuses for Fox. Moreover,
Knowlton does not know who Gates is. If he interviewed him he would not feel as "comfortable" as he does with Mark Fox.

My fear is Knowlton announces the building of the practice faculty and extends Fox four years saying he "deserves to see the fruit of the facility he helped get built."

I hope I am wrong.

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I hope you are wrong too, but I fear you are right. It would be hard for me to be even more depressed about the program than I am now, but that would certainly do it.

BeachedBear said:

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polarbear said:

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Why not a coach from a successful women's program, such as Kelly Graves from Oregon or Jeff Walz from Louisville. And why not a female head coach? After all, Berkeley is always the social trend setter!

---

I think that's a wonderful idea and suggested Becky Hammon a while ago - but her sights seem to be aimed much higher. I really don't think Cal is the social trend setter to be the first though. My guess is it will be at a mid-major program before it hits the Pac 12 or other power conference.

As discussed before, successful college coaching consists of X's & O's, player development, campus/community outreach and most importantly recruiting. I see absolutely no reason a woman can not be successful in the first three. And as for the most important item - recruiting, let me remind everyone of two facts.

1. The key to Lute Olsen's recruiting success was his wife Bobbi, who died in 2001. Ask any of his players from that era to get the deets.

2. USC has recruited very well since Enfield's wife took over

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Ew....just ew...

bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

---

That only matters if Gates is in the stable of Knowlton's infamous search firm. Otherwise, he's not a serious candidate.

Big C said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

---

That only matters if Gates is in the stable of Knowlton's infamous search firm. Otherwise, he's not a serious candidate.

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OMG! How bad does it have to get?

calumnus said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

---

I am afraid we will. Knowlton was fine with a bottom dwelling basketball program at Air Force. He was fine with Jones, until insiders raised Cain and from what we can tell insiders are making excuses for Fox. Moreover,
Knowlton does not know who Gates is. If he interviewed him he would not feel as "comfortable" as he does with Mark Fox.

My fear is Knowlton announces the building of the practice faculty and extends Fox four years saying he "deserves to see the fruit of the facility he helped get built."

I hope I am wrong.

---

Somebody do something!

bipolarbear said:

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calumnus said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

---

I am afraid we will. Knowlton was fine with a bottom dwelling basketball program at Air Force. He was fine with Jones, until insiders raised Cain and from what we can tell insiders are making excuses for Fox. Moreover,
Knowlton does not know who Gates is. If he interviewed him he would not feel as "comfortable" as he does with Mark Fox.

My fear is Knowlton announces the building of the practice faculty and extends Fox four years saying he "deserves to see the fruit of the facility he helped get built."

I hope I am wrong.

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Somebody do something!

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You can start by writing a check...

KoreAmBear said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

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Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

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We cannot. He is my leading candidate. It makes too much sense.

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Why do you do you have no reservations about hiring Wyking but fiddle f@uck around giving Gates a nod? Discuss amongst yourselves.

Regarding Dennis Gates, I suspect one of the question marks about him is his lack of West Coast experience and is he even interested in coaching and living out here? I would have to say "definitely maybe" on that last part, as he played here. But he was originally from the Chicago area and has spent his entire coaching career* back East, that after knowing quite well how "wonderful" California is.

Regarding his lack of West Coast contacts, he surely seems savvy enough to hire an Assistant who could kill it in SoCal (something Fox apparently hasn't figured out, to his detriment).

Supposedly he did an interview with us over the phone (last time or the time before) and the rumor was that he was not super-prepared, as in, was luke warm about the job. But who knows?

Cost of living is crazy here, but whatever he's making at Cleveland State has got to be well less than half of what we would pay him. Well well less. California -- north or south -- seems like a pretty desirable place to be when you're pulling down seven figures (not that I would know, lol).

I will say one thing, when people here would bring up his name when he was still an Assistant at Florida State, I was like "yeah, no". But now that he has some demonstrated success as a Head Coach, I'm like "no, yeah".


* Edit, I googled him. After a stint as an intern on the LA Clippers staff and one-year grad assistantships at Marquette and Florida State, he came back and was on Ben Braun's staff for a year? I had forgotten that. I wonder why only a year. And then, after a couple of years at N. Illinois, he was an assistant at Nevada for two years, looks like right after Fox was there. Anyway, so he hasn't spent his entire coaching career back East. But I'm still wondering if he wants to be at Cal... and our AD ought to find that out!

calumnus said:

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Alkiadt said:

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bipolarbear said:

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calumnus said:

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bipolarbear said:

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mdbear said:

---

Put my vote in for Dennis Gates. He was a total class act at Cal, an academic all Pac 12 who graduated with a masters degree in four years. Always discussing strategy with the coaches. At Florida State, he was an outstanding recruiter and studied under Leonard Hamilton, one of the most underrated coaches in the country. Then Gates took over a Cleveland State team that had not won more than 11 games its prior two seasons. In two years, Gates had them winning the conference and going to the tournament. They have a good record this year and could win the conference again. Even if Gates did not have a Cal connection, he would be a serious candidate. His understanding of our program seals the deal for me.

---

We are going to miss the window for hiring Gates.

---

I am afraid we will. Knowlton was fine with a bottom dwelling basketball program at Air Force. He was fine with Jones, until insiders raised Cain and from what we can tell insiders are making excuses for Fox. Moreover,
Knowlton does not know who Gates is. If he interviewed him he would not feel as "comfortable" as he does with Mark Fox.

My fear is Knowlton announces the building of the practice faculty and extends Fox four years saying he "deserves to see the fruit of the facility he helped get built."

I hope I am wrong.

---

Somebody do something!

---

You can start by writing a check...

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To hand over to the AD to throw away and further reward him for his incompetence? "I've trashed Cal athletics and only your donations can save it" (and I'll point to that as MY successful fundraising to get another raise and another extension).

A pledge to a fund for a particular purpose (Fox's buyout, or better Knowlton's buyout), that might make a difference. .

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That was my point.

Big C said:

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Cost of living is crazy here, but whatever he's making at Cleveland State has got to be well less than half of what we would pay him. Well well less. California -- north or south -- seems like a pretty desirable place to be when you're pulling down seven figures (not that I would know, lol).

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Gates signed a new 6-year contract with Cleveland State on May 20, 2021. It pays him $550,000 per year. He could probably earn at least 3 times that at Cal.

Does that mean we'd have to buy Gates' contract out, buy Fox's contract out, AND pay Gates more than $1.65M per year?

stu said:

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Does that mean we'd have to buy Gates' contract out, buy Fox's contract out, AND pay Gates more than $1.65M per year?

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Probably. That's why Gates is not likely coming to Cal, even if Fox is fired. And I think the chance of Fox being fired after this season is very slim.

Gates' buyout is only 600K if he leaves before 5/1/22. Reasonable....

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/college/2021/05/details-of-cleveland-states-6-year-contract-for-dennis-gates-worth-32-million-terry-pluto.html

How about if every regular on this board -- we're talking dozens of fans -- gave up Starbucks and instead put that money into a pool . . . I mean, I would be down with that. I don't go to Starbucks though, but I could put in a few bucks a week, for sure.