drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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oskidunker said:

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bearup said:

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Big C said:

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Well stated! Treat the young men as you would want your own son (or daughter) treated. And that is what Fox seems to be doing. That said, there are a number of reasons why a marginal player might leave early (you alluded to one above:
- lack of projected PT
- yearning to be closer to home or don't like Berkeley
- academic difficulty
- don't like coaches (or teammates)
- injury retirement

I'd be surprised if we didn't have 1-2 schollies free up over the next few months (besides Kelly), just because that is the way it usually happens nowadays.

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Is Hyder injured?

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Foreman is a better shooter. Brown plays 30 and Foreman 10, when he can. If Foreman cant go Hyder might get in.

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Hyder was reportedly (earlier in the season) still recovering from an injury he sustained late last season. Meanwhile, Foreman has been playing semi-decent backup PG.


I gotta hand it to Foreman: Dude went through some struggles to play at this level (and that, as a grad student) and also had a lower-body injury, but he's persevered and has been playing semi-decent backup point guard... as a 2nd year grad transfer. I'm sure, had his presence on the team not been really positive, Fox wouldn't have invited him back.

I am going to be clapping for this guy at "Senior Night" (which maybe needs to be renamed?)!


I'm hoping that both Brown and Hyder can up their game a bit next season (as it looks like they are our PGs).

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I'll be shocked if we see anything more than we have from Hyder the last two years. Last year I was very excited to see what he could do once reinstated, given the fair amount of hype/hope placed on his addition to the team. Three games in I'd seen enough. And nothing has changed since then. If the last few games are an indication, it seems like Fox has now also seen enough.

Meanwhile, Brown continues to improve significantly. I think Brown will take a big step forward next season, as he is visibly playing with more confidence, and Fox is showing more confidence in him. All signs are pointing to lift-off for Brown from this season to next. But a serviceable backup PG will need to be found (cuz, unfortunately, Hyder ain't it).

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Joel Brown had a great game against Oregon State! Were it not for that game though, I think it would be pretty hard to say that "all signs are pointing to lift-off for Brown". He had a weekend in January (LA schools?) where he didn't score a single point. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for him and would love to see him have a break-out senior season, so I look forward to, in a year, being able to post here that you called it.

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I, too, hope you're able post that next year!

I should've been more clear that, for me, I don't ever expect JB to be an impactful scorer or a reliable shooter. My realistic hope for him is that he can be a Prentice McGruder type of PG, who controls tempo, takes care of the ball, effectively runs offense and sets up scorers, and effectively defends opposing PG. In short, all the things that McGruder did to make him such an effective PG (of course having Ed Gray and that lineup around him certainly helped McGruder).

I see JB as having turned one significant corner this year, though there are still better games and worse games. But what I really like is that he seems to be finally playing with confidence. It might actually be watching the team struggle so much without him in the WA games. That might have contributed to his seeing his own value to the team. And Fox clearly is showing more confidence in JB.

I feel like this is the year where JB is finally getting his feet underneath him, so to speak. And I'm hopeful that next year he will hit the ground running from the start, and be much more consistent in his good games. That's what i really mean by his "lift-off". To this point we've been suffering through his development, but I think next year he arrives as a confident and effective P12 PG (even if he's still not a great scorer or shooter). Plus, although the sample size is small, I feel like he is also showing improvement at the free throw line (which is critical for him). And I'm hoping that's a big point of emphasis for him in the off-season and he is at least serviceable (60%+) at the line next season.

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Prentice wasn't going to hit 3's, but he could make mid-range shots better than Joel likely ever will. Prentice had more help around him than Joel, and while he didn't have Joel's hops, when he took shots around the rim they were less likely to get blocked.

It would be good if Joel could hit FT's. It is hard to say he has showed much improvement. He got meaningful minutes in 13 of the 15 conference games, and he is 9-16 in those 13 games. Ok, that may be some improvement, but he doesn't exactly get to the line enough to show what he can do. He only went to the line in 5 of those 13 games, 2-4 in the Utah game, 1-3 vs. ASU, 1-1 vs. Arizona, then in the last 2 games he DOUBLED his trips to the line from the first 11 of those 13 games, going 3-5 vs. OSU and 2-3 vs. Oregon. You know you're not going to the line much when 8 times in 2 games matches the first 11 conference games. OK, so last weekend, he hit 62.5%, which for Joel is a big improvement, and went to the line an average of 4 times per game, again for him an improvement.

It is a mixed bag, it would be good if Joel could get to the line a lot more, except if he does, he needs to hit his FT's. If I were the coach, I'd probably try to get someone to teach him to shoot from the line Rick Barry style, but I know that will never happen.

I'd love to see Joel next year consistently do well in the non-scoring parts of his game, plus get to the line more often, plus hit his FT's. If he can do that, we can all be very happy with him.

I feel like Joel Brown could benefit by observing Shepherd: It's not necessary to play at top speed 100% of the time.

Cal8285 said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Big C said:

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oskidunker said:

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bearup said:

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Big C said:

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Well stated! Treat the young men as you would want your own son (or daughter) treated. And that is what Fox seems to be doing. That said, there are a number of reasons why a marginal player might leave early (you alluded to one above:
- lack of projected PT
- yearning to be closer to home or don't like Berkeley
- academic difficulty
- don't like coaches (or teammates)
- injury retirement

I'd be surprised if we didn't have 1-2 schollies free up over the next few months (besides Kelly), just because that is the way it usually happens nowadays.

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Is Hyder injured?

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Foreman is a better shooter. Brown plays 30 and Foreman 10, when he can. If Foreman cant go Hyder might get in.

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Hyder was reportedly (earlier in the season) still recovering from an injury he sustained late last season. Meanwhile, Foreman has been playing semi-decent backup PG.


I gotta hand it to Foreman: Dude went through some struggles to play at this level (and that, as a grad student) and also had a lower-body injury, but he's persevered and has been playing semi-decent backup point guard... as a 2nd year grad transfer. I'm sure, had his presence on the team not been really positive, Fox wouldn't have invited him back.

I am going to be clapping for this guy at "Senior Night" (which maybe needs to be renamed?)!


I'm hoping that both Brown and Hyder can up their game a bit next season (as it looks like they are our PGs).

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I'll be shocked if we see anything more than we have from Hyder the last two years. Last year I was very excited to see what he could do once reinstated, given the fair amount of hype/hope placed on his addition to the team. Three games in I'd seen enough. And nothing has changed since then. If the last few games are an indication, it seems like Fox has now also seen enough.

Meanwhile, Brown continues to improve significantly. I think Brown will take a big step forward next season, as he is visibly playing with more confidence, and Fox is showing more confidence in him. All signs are pointing to lift-off for Brown from this season to next. But a serviceable backup PG will need to be found (cuz, unfortunately, Hyder ain't it).

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Joel Brown had a great game against Oregon State! Were it not for that game though, I think it would be pretty hard to say that "all signs are pointing to lift-off for Brown". He had a weekend in January (LA schools?) where he didn't score a single point. Don't get me wrong, I'm rooting for him and would love to see him have a break-out senior season, so I look forward to, in a year, being able to post here that you called it.

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I, too, hope you're able post that next year!

I should've been more clear that, for me, I don't ever expect JB to be an impactful scorer or a reliable shooter. My realistic hope for him is that he can be a Prentice McGruder type of PG, who controls tempo, takes care of the ball, effectively runs offense and sets up scorers, and effectively defends opposing PG. In short, all the things that McGruder did to make him such an effective PG (of course having Ed Gray and that lineup around him certainly helped McGruder).

I see JB as having turned one significant corner this year, though there are still better games and worse games. But what I really like is that he seems to be finally playing with confidence. It might actually be watching the team struggle so much without him in the WA games. That might have contributed to his seeing his own value to the team. And Fox clearly is showing more confidence in JB.

I feel like this is the year where JB is finally getting his feet underneath him, so to speak. And I'm hopeful that next year he will hit the ground running from the start, and be much more consistent in his good games. That's what i really mean by his "lift-off". To this point we've been suffering through his development, but I think next year he arrives as a confident and effective P12 PG (even if he's still not a great scorer or shooter). Plus, although the sample size is small, I feel like he is also showing improvement at the free throw line (which is critical for him). And I'm hoping that's a big point of emphasis for him in the off-season and he is at least serviceable (60%+) at the line next season.

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Prentice wasn't going to hit 3's, but he could make mid-range shots better than Joel likely ever will. Prentice had more help around him than Joel, and while he didn't have Joel's hops, when he took shots around the rim they were less likely to get blocked.

It would be good if Joel could hit FT's. It is hard to say he has showed much improvement. He got meaningful minutes in 13 of the 15 conference games, and he is 9-16 in those 13 games. Ok, that may be some improvement, but he doesn't exactly get to the line enough to show what he can do. He only went to the line in 5 of those 13 games, 2-4 in the Utah game, 1-3 vs. ASU, 1-1 vs. Arizona, then in the last 2 games he DOUBLED his trips to the line from the first 11 of those 13 games, going 3-5 vs. OSU and 2-3 vs. Oregon. You know you're not going to the line much when 8 times in 2 games matches the first 11 conference games. OK, so last weekend, he hit 62.5%, which for Joel is a big improvement, and went to the line an average of 4 times per game, again for him an improvement.

It is a mixed bag, it would be good if Joel could get to the line a lot more, except if he does, he needs to hit his FT's. If I were the coach, I'd probably try to get someone to teach him to shoot from the line Rick Barry style, but I know that will never happen.

I'd love to see Joel next year consistently do well in the non-scoring parts of his game, plus get to the line more often, plus hit his FT's. If he can do that, we can all be very happy with him.

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Well said. I think I agree on all counts (except that I don't recall McGruder hitting very many mid-range jumpers, but my memory could certainly be failing me on that point. My recollection of McGruder is no perimeter shot nor midrange, good finisher at the rim, and mediocre ft shooter, plus excellent passer and on-ball defender; basically, a college version of Rajon Rondo.) I think we might be having parallel discussions in a couple different threads, but I said in a different thread pretty much same as what you've said here.

Big C said:

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I feel like Joel Brown could benefit by observing Shepherd: It's not necessary to play at top speed 100% of the time.

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Agree. I do think he's slowing down and picking his spots a little more now. Part of the increased confidence I'm saying I perceive from him lately. Of course, I recognize that's a very subjective observation on my part, and others might have a different perception.

to be able to play like Sheperd, you not only need to have vision and understanding of the game, you need to have a bag of ball handling moves and counters in your bag

not sure how quickly brown can improve the vision part, but he has shown some improvement in his ball handling

if he works hard on his handle now and in the off season he can make a significant improvement by next season

as for FTs, he needs a shooting coach and a million reps. There are two players on the WBB team with worst shooting form than Brown, and they greatly improved their FT shooting from last season

HoopDreams said:

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to be able to play like Sheperd, you not only need to have vision and understanding of the game, you need to have a bag of ball handling moves and counters in your bag

not sure how quickly brown can improve the vision part, but he has shown some improvement in his ball handling

if he works hard on his handle now and in the off season he can make a significant improvement by next season

as for FTs, he needs a shooting coach and a million reps. There are two players on the WBB team with worst shooting form than Brown, and they greatly improved their FT shooting from last season

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Good post. Maybe Brown can be borrowing from Shepherd's bag while he is still here. Better yet, when Shepherd leaves, maybe he can leave his bag in Brown's locker!


80% of the time, when a guy can't shoot from the line. I feel like I can spot a mechanical problem in his form. With Brown, there is something funky going on with his shooting elbow/forearm/wrist/hand as he first starts to go up. I'm sure this is overly simplistic, but why can't they show a guy videos of themselves and compare that to a "model" shooter. (LOL, I'm sure I'm not the first person on the planet to think of this!)

I love the shooting forms of Kelly (classic Klay Thompson stroke) and Kuany (more of the earlier-release Curry stroke). Both of their motions are smooth and "confident looking". Bad shooters often look like the ball's on a string when they release.


Odd how Joel Brown used to shoot 3-pointers at a better % than one might expect, given his FT %. Lately, he hasn't taken any shots from beyond the arc that I can recall.

Big C said:

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HoopDreams said:

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to be able to play like Sheperd, you not only need to have vision and understanding of the game, you need to have a bag of ball handling moves and counters in your bag

not sure how quickly brown can improve the vision part, but he has shown some improvement in his ball handling

if he works hard on his handle now and in the off season he can make a significant improvement by next season

as for FTs, he needs a shooting coach and a million reps. There are two players on the WBB team with worst shooting form than Brown, and they greatly improved their FT shooting from last season

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Good post. Maybe Brown can be borrowing from Shepherd's bag while he is still here. Better yet, when Shepherd leaves, maybe he can leave his bag in Brown's locker!


80% of the time, when a guy can't shoot from the line. I feel like I can spot a mechanical problem in his form. With Brown, there is something funky going on with his shooting elbow/forearm/wrist/hand as he first starts to go up. I'm sure this is overly simplistic, but why can't they show a guy videos of themselves and compare that to a "model" shooter. (LOL, I'm sure I'm not the first person on the planet to think of this!)

I love the shooting forms of Kelly (classic Klay Thompson stroke) and Kuany (more of the earlier-release Curry stroke). Both of their motions are smooth and "confident looking". Bad shooters often look like the ball's on a string when they release.


Odd how Joel Brown used to shoot 3-pointers at a better % than one might expect, given his FT %. Lately, he hasn't taken any shots from beyond the arc that I can recall.

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With Brown, the funkiness in his stroke is 99% between his ears. The string analogy comes from trying to aim the ball into the hoop.

Brown will never have the polished game that Shepherd has. Also, Brown's percentage from 3-point has always been a fluke. Even as he was making some, it was k virus he couldn't sustain and replicate that over a larger sample size. Again, my best-case hope for Brown is that he becomes Prentice McGruder; and I think he will.

I do think he has excellent vision, and has since his freshman season. He made some eye-popping passes (both in vision and execution) his freshman season. But he wasn't ready to do it consistently, especially without high rate of turnovers. But the game is slowing down for him more and more and he is now more consistently making deft, and sometimes special, passes, and fewer turnovers.

Some have said they don't like when Brown dribbles all the way under the basket and back out. That it's too much dribbling. I don't mind when he does that. In fact, I think that usually ends in good things (a finish for him, a hammer pass to the corner 3, a pocket pass to a big whose defender is focusing on stopping Brown, etc.)

Mc Gruder Stats

Yup. Brown will probably score and rebound a little more, but that 6.4 Asst average for McGruder is impressive (even with the relatively high TO rate).

drizzlybear said:

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Some have said they don't like when Brown dribbles all the way under the basket and back out. That it's too much dribbling. I don't mind when he does that. In fact, I think that usually ends in good things (a finish for him, a hammer pass to the corner 3, a pocket pass to a big whose defender is focusing on stopping Brown, etc.)

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I don't remember anyone saying this

What I amd others have said we don't like is when he drives hard at one speed with no apparent plan and doesn't finish or turns it over or gets blocked

He's done that less recently

HoopDreams said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Some have said they don't like when Brown dribbles all the way under the basket and back out. That it's too much dribbling. I don't mind when he does that. In fact, I think that usually ends in good things (a finish for him, a hammer pass to the corner 3, a pocket pass to a big whose defender is focusing on stopping Brown, etc.)

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I don't remember anyone saying this

What I amd others have said we don't like is when he drives hard at one speed with no apparent plan and doesn't finish or turns it over or gets blocked

He's done that less recently

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I don't recall who I've seen say it, but I've seen people put his doing that in the "dribbles too much" category. It's frustrated me a little when I've seen that said because while I agree there can be too much dribbling, those particular instances with JB I think are usually pretty effective.

Btw, total non sequitur here, but have people seen what Bradley has been doing lately. (For those not interested, feel free to stop reading now.) Granted, it's sub-P12 competition, but holy smokes. In his last 5 games, he's averaging 23ppg and he's made 19 of 32 from 3. Can you imagine that, when the other team's entire defensive strategy is designed to stop you from scoring? I think he's starting to dial it in.

drizzlybear said:

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HoopDreams said:

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drizzlybear said:

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Some have said they don't like when Brown dribbles all the way under the basket and back out. That it's too much dribbling. I don't mind when he does that. In fact, I think that usually ends in good things (a finish for him, a hammer pass to the corner 3, a pocket pass to a big whose defender is focusing on stopping Brown, etc.)

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I don't remember anyone saying this

What I amd others have said we don't like is when he drives hard at one speed with no apparent plan and doesn't finish or turns it over or gets blocked

He's done that less recently

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I don't recall who I've seen say it, but I've seen people put his doing that in the "dribbles too much" category. It's frustrated me a little when I've seen that said because while I agree there can be too much dribbling, those particular instances with JB I think are usually pretty effective.

Btw, total non sequitur here, but have people seen what Bradley has been doing lately. (For those not interested, feel free to stop reading now.) Granted, it's sub-P12 competition, but holy smokes. In his last 5 games, he's averaging 23ppg and he's made 19 of 32 from 3. Can you imagine that, when the other team's entire defensive strategy is designed to stop you from scoring? I think he's starting to dial it in.

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If I haven't said it, I sure as heck meant to. I wouldn't mind it, if I had seen it result in something productive semi-often. It usually doesn't, plus it looks lame. Who does that?!? I thought maybe he would've cured himself after last season, then, in one game (I wanna say against U of A), he set his personal record of making more than a complete circle (10' diameter). IIRC, it was about 1 1/3 circles. I don't believe it resulted in a basket, either.

To his credit, I will say that on this last, wonderful road trip, there were numerous instances of him having the ball down low and then actually being able to put it in the basket. If he's able to continue that, I'll be totally fine with his little circles. Heck, if it works, he can have it be his signature move and reap tons of NIL! I would cheer!