I wish.
Why is Mark Fox still our coach?
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Last: 2 yr ago by KoreAmBear
Coached over 500 games, has not won in March in over 15 years, is Knowlton mentally incapacitated?
In any sane athletic department, keeping (or god forbid extending) Fox should rise to the level of firing the athletic director (especially if rumors from other places are true that the money is there to fire Fox). Instead, we have Knowlton till the end of the decade.Strykur said:
Coached over 500 games, has not won in March in over 15 years, is Knowlton mentally incapacitated?
I don't see that yet.PtownBear1 said:
If someone kicks off the online petition I bet we could garner enough signatures to where local media picks up on it. Worth a try…
However since it's long past football season (playing or recruiting) the mods could take down the football recruiting poll on the BI front page and replace it with a basketball poll. Something like:
What should Cal do with the men's basketball program?
* Extend the HC contract because he needs time to complete what is looking like a successful rebuild.
* Keep the HC for the remainder of his contract because the players are playing up to their potential, then re-evaluate in 2 years.
* Keep the HC for the remainder of his contract to save money, then downgrade the salary in 2 years. Continue the program at a level just sufficient to meet Pac-12 minimum requirements.
* Terminate the program, exit the Pac-12, and convert Haas to an Olympic sports facility (or student housing).
* Terminate the HC contract and hire an up-and coming HC.
* Terminate the HC contract and find the money to hire a proven successful HC.
Strykur said:
Coached over 500 games, has not won in March in over 15 years, is Knowlton mentally incapacitated?
Exactly. Which is why I question everything he does. We really need Wilcox to start winning.
I was never worried about Wilcox leaving, Oregon situation and whatnot, but we are really going to be up a creek if Wilcox for whatever reason is out and Knowlton has to make the hire.calumnus said:Exactly. Which is why I question everything he does. We really need Wilcox to start winning.Strykur said:
Coached over 500 games, has not won in March in over 15 years, is Knowlton mentally incapacitated?
Strykur said:I was never worried about Wilcox leaving, Oregon situation and whatnot, but we are really going to be up a creek if Wilcox for whatever reason is out and Knowlton has to make the hire.calumnus said:Exactly. Which is why I question everything he does. We really need Wilcox to start winning.Strykur said:
Coached over 500 games, has not won in March in over 15 years, is Knowlton mentally incapacitated?
With a competent AD, I would not be worried about having to replace Wilcox. Now, we really need Wilcox to start winning.
So, no news is bad news?
An outside opinion, sort of:
Write For California
Write For California
Is he still our coach?
My guess is if Knowlton decided Fox had to leave then it would have been announced soon after the team returned from the Pac-12 Tournament. I don't think it should take long to complete the evaluation since the data looked pretty clear to me by the end of the regular season and our 1-game post-season didn't change anything.calumnus said:
So, no news is bad news?
I'm afraid the delay is best explained by the time it takes to discuss an improvement plan, negotiate an extension, and write the press release.
Sometimes, I like to delude myself with false hope . . . .stu said:My guess is if Knowlton decided Fox had to leave then it would have been announced soon after the team returned from the Pac-12 Tournament. I don't think it should take long to complete the evaluation since the data looked pretty clear to me by the end of the regular season and our 1-game post-season didn't change anything.calumnus said:
So, no news is bad news?
I'm afraid the delay is best explained by the time it takes to discuss an improvement plan, negotiate an extension, and write the press release.
In that vein, I'm hoping Knowlton is actually closing a deal on someone coaching in the tourney and will make a joint announcement that FOX is moving on and who the replacement is in early April.
BeachedBear said:Sometimes, I like to delude myself with false hope . . . .stu said:My guess is if Knowlton decided Fox had to leave then it would have been announced soon after the team returned from the Pac-12 Tournament. I don't think it should take long to complete the evaluation since the data looked pretty clear to me by the end of the regular season and our 1-game post-season didn't change anything.calumnus said:
So, no news is bad news?
I'm afraid the delay is best explained by the time it takes to discuss an improvement plan, negotiate an extension, and write the press release.
In that vein, I'm hoping Knowlton is actually closing a deal on someone coaching in the tourney and will make a joint announcement that FOX is moving on and who the replacement is in early April.
Dare to dream.
I remember there being some surprise when Sandy let Ben Braun go (though not total shock).
The longer this draws out, the worse it is for Fox. We are about to enter the most exciting time of the college basketball calendar. Where it will be painfully obvious that we need major change in order to take part in the big dance. This could influence donors and players. Donors will see the new wave of charismatic coaches guiding their teams to victory with bright futures---and the extreme contrast with Fox. Our players will see the spectacle and may try to become a part of that by transferring (I know, where do they go? But still).
Not to mention, its a major networking event. ADs and coaches from all over making moves. Until Fox gets that extension, I remain hopeful that the powers that be will come to their senses and realize we need to make a change.
Not to mention, its a major networking event. ADs and coaches from all over making moves. Until Fox gets that extension, I remain hopeful that the powers that be will come to their senses and realize we need to make a change.
BC Calfan said:
The longer this draws out, the worse it is for Fox. We are about to enter the most exciting time of the college basketball calendar. Where it will be painfully obvious that we need major change in order to take part in the big dance. This could influence donors and players. Donors will see the new wave of charismatic coaches guiding their teams to victory with bright futures---and the extreme contrast with Fox. Our players will see the spectacle and may try to become a part of that by transferring (I know, where do they go? But still).
Not to mention, its a major networking event. ADs and coaches from all over making moves. Until Fox gets that extension, I remain hopeful that the powers that be will come to their senses and realize we need to make a change.
Has Knowlton ever attended? Does he even know what it is? He seemed annoyed that DeCuire wasn't immediately available for an interview and "wasn't as prepared" (as Fox) when interviewed the day he got back from taking his team to the Tournament. He hired Fox after the Tournament had just started, not bothering to wait and see if there were any other up and coming young coaches to talk with.
calumnus said:BC Calfan said:
The longer this draws out, the worse it is for Fox. We are about to enter the most exciting time of the college basketball calendar. Where it will be painfully obvious that we need major change in order to take part in the big dance. This could influence donors and players. Donors will see the new wave of charismatic coaches guiding their teams to victory with bright futures---and the extreme contrast with Fox. Our players will see the spectacle and may try to become a part of that by transferring (I know, where do they go? But still).
Not to mention, its a major networking event. ADs and coaches from all over making moves. Until Fox gets that extension, I remain hopeful that the powers that be will come to their senses and realize we need to make a change.
Has Knowlton ever attended? Does he even know what it is? He seemed annoyed that DeCuire wasn't immediately available for an interview and "wasn't as prepared" (as Fox) when interviewed the day he got back from taking his team to the Tournament. He hired Fox after the Tournament had just started, not bothering to wait and see if there were any other up and coming young coaches to talk with.
My guess is that he hired Fox because Fox was in his search firm's stable and he just gave DeCuire a courtesy interview. I mean, so many people here, me included, were like, "Wait, what? Why not DeCuire?!?"
Does anyone here actually think Knowlton is a competent enough AD to fire Fox? It aint happening. Fox is staying another year + getting an extension.
panda said:
Does anyone here actually think Knowlton is a competent enough AD to fire Fox? It aint happening. Fox is staying another year + getting an extension.
He was "competent" enough to fire Jones after the public outcry after he announced he wouldn't do an evaluation until after the season ended then indicated he would be coming back. Everything he did after that was gross incompetence. Insanity that he makes almost a $million a year and just got extended until 2029.
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
A) NIL makes recruiting even more difficult for a school like Cal when you have essentially programs paying kids.
B) The rest of the conference has made significant coaching upgrades/the hires have worked out well.
C) The transfer rules have significantly shifted in a way that gives players more leverage. You HAVE to keep em happy because most are not sitting out a year. Even more true with Grad transfers and then the COVID super seniors.
All of these factors have made the viability of an "old school" coach even more problematic. Mark Fox really is a throw back and while that might have worked a decade or 2 ago it doesn't know.
Bring on the kicker. We need someone who can recruit and Cal is his dream job.
Edit/PS
I actually am sorta surprised there isn't that much buzz about Pasterkick. This year they were a LITTLE down but it is important to take a deeper dive and see that they had 5 games wacked by COVID (at least 4 of which they probably are favored). I am pretty sure that they would have gotten to 20 wins again without....giving him 5 years of 20+ victories.
I get that he kicked Jorge. And I REALLY want us to hire an African American coach. But objectively his record and connections suggest a higher probability of success than Dennis:
1) Recruited the West Coast for Zona. Knows the territory Really well
2) Has backing of donors. The practice facility far more likely to get done.
3) Now knows UC. Has had to understand the kind of kid that can succeed. Yes. It is UC Isla Vista. But it isn't a HORRIBLE school or ASU. That experience translates. He worked for Braun. He can find his way around campus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Pasternack
4) He is 45.
A) NIL makes recruiting even more difficult for a school like Cal when you have essentially programs paying kids.
B) The rest of the conference has made significant coaching upgrades/the hires have worked out well.
C) The transfer rules have significantly shifted in a way that gives players more leverage. You HAVE to keep em happy because most are not sitting out a year. Even more true with Grad transfers and then the COVID super seniors.
All of these factors have made the viability of an "old school" coach even more problematic. Mark Fox really is a throw back and while that might have worked a decade or 2 ago it doesn't know.
Bring on the kicker. We need someone who can recruit and Cal is his dream job.
Edit/PS
I actually am sorta surprised there isn't that much buzz about Pasterkick. This year they were a LITTLE down but it is important to take a deeper dive and see that they had 5 games wacked by COVID (at least 4 of which they probably are favored). I am pretty sure that they would have gotten to 20 wins again without....giving him 5 years of 20+ victories.
I get that he kicked Jorge. And I REALLY want us to hire an African American coach. But objectively his record and connections suggest a higher probability of success than Dennis:
1) Recruited the West Coast for Zona. Knows the territory Really well
2) Has backing of donors. The practice facility far more likely to get done.
3) Now knows UC. Has had to understand the kind of kid that can succeed. Yes. It is UC Isla Vista. But it isn't a HORRIBLE school or ASU. That experience translates. He worked for Braun. He can find his way around campus.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Pasternack
4) He is 45.
Take care of your Chicken
Hey SoCal, sorry, but I have to disagree with you and I said this back then, this was always a horrible hire. Even had Fox done "OK," (this is what it's come to, we dream about "top half" of conference, not top of conference...) that wouldn't have justified the decision in retrospect. But everything screamed don't hire this guy. As I said back then, I don't mind at all us taking a chance on a mid major hot coach. Chances are they won't work out, but sometimes they do. Well again (sorry to be a broken record with this phrase) as I said back then, Georgia did the homework for us. They're the one that took a chance on Fox from Reno and it was a failure. In a weak SEC, the best he could do was two NCAA tourneys, with no wins. and of course he was fired after compiling a .494 conference winning percentage.socaltownie said:
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
OK. But here is the logical argument.....TheFiatLux said:Hey SoCal, sorry, but I have to disagree with you and I said this back then, this was always a horrible hire. Even had Fox done "OK," (this is what it's come to, we dream about "top half" of conference, not top of conference...) that wouldn't have justified the decision in retrospect. But everything screamed don't hire this guy. As I said back then, I don't mind at all us taking a chance on a mid major hot coach. Chances are they won't work out, but sometimes they do. Well again (sorry to be a broken record with this phrase) as I said back then, Georgia did the homework for us. They're the one that took a chance on Fox from Reno and it was a failure. In a weak SEC, the best he could do was two NCAA tourneys, with no wins. and of course he was fired after compiling a .494 conference winning percentage.socaltownie said:
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
1) SEC is dirty as hell and Fox isn't. Cal will NEVER tolerate even a sniff of NCAA rule breaking. So Fox fits and maybe he struggled in SEC cause of dirty SEC and then "georgia". It isn't like after canning Fox they have been on fire.
2) He clearly can teach. Maybe cal HAS to find (I disagree here but it is logical enough that others on this board hold FIRMLY to the view) diamonds in the rough and Fox is the guy to help coach them up.
3) His peers respect him. He doesn't get on Team USA for being an idiot.
Take care of your Chicken
socaltownie said:OK. But here is the logical argument.....TheFiatLux said:Hey SoCal, sorry, but I have to disagree with you and I said this back then, this was always a horrible hire. Even had Fox done "OK," (this is what it's come to, we dream about "top half" of conference, not top of conference...) that wouldn't have justified the decision in retrospect. But everything screamed don't hire this guy. As I said back then, I don't mind at all us taking a chance on a mid major hot coach. Chances are they won't work out, but sometimes they do. Well again (sorry to be a broken record with this phrase) as I said back then, Georgia did the homework for us. They're the one that took a chance on Fox from Reno and it was a failure. In a weak SEC, the best he could do was two NCAA tourneys, with no wins. and of course he was fired after compiling a .494 conference winning percentage.socaltownie said:
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
1) SEC is dirty as hell and Fox isn't. Cal will NEVER tolerate even a sniff of NCAA rule breaking. So Fox fits and maybe he struggled in SEC cause of dirty SEC and then "georgia". It isn't like after canning Fox they have been on fire.
2) He clearly can teach. Maybe cal HAS to find (I disagree here but it is logical enough that others on this board hold FIRMLY to the view) diamonds in the rough and Fox is the guy to help coach them up.
3) His peers respect him. He doesn't get on Team USA for being an idiot.
The level of excuses to make Mark Fox seem like he was a competent coach is insane here.
Bear Haas said:
Agreed. Not playing Joel last night was bad and fans deserved an explanation. Need some sort of optimism or outlook from the coach, not just comments that might make you lose even more talent (need far more, not less). I was among those saying to keep Fox but the end of the season and lack of leadership hurts, the whole program just feels lifeless with him at the helm. No real passion, the guys don't seem like they are particularly inspired by him, he doesn't inspire the fan base, and he can't inspire recruits. Maybe see how year 4 goes but something needs to change soon
Why do we need another year to see how it goes? The guy has an entire crappy career to show he cannot do this job.
I am NOT excusing him. I am offering a rational for why a semi-intelligent person could conclude he might be able to make it work _THREE YEARS AGO_ in a different landscape of college bball. As with any hire, there is NEVER a sure bet. That isn't to excuse JK EITHER. Fox isn't a Wyking Jones like Hire that made NO sense then or now.panda said:socaltownie said:OK. But here is the logical argument.....TheFiatLux said:Hey SoCal, sorry, but I have to disagree with you and I said this back then, this was always a horrible hire. Even had Fox done "OK," (this is what it's come to, we dream about "top half" of conference, not top of conference...) that wouldn't have justified the decision in retrospect. But everything screamed don't hire this guy. As I said back then, I don't mind at all us taking a chance on a mid major hot coach. Chances are they won't work out, but sometimes they do. Well again (sorry to be a broken record with this phrase) as I said back then, Georgia did the homework for us. They're the one that took a chance on Fox from Reno and it was a failure. In a weak SEC, the best he could do was two NCAA tourneys, with no wins. and of course he was fired after compiling a .494 conference winning percentage.socaltownie said:
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
1) SEC is dirty as hell and Fox isn't. Cal will NEVER tolerate even a sniff of NCAA rule breaking. So Fox fits and maybe he struggled in SEC cause of dirty SEC and then "georgia". It isn't like after canning Fox they have been on fire.
2) He clearly can teach. Maybe cal HAS to find (I disagree here but it is logical enough that others on this board hold FIRMLY to the view) diamonds in the rough and Fox is the guy to help coach them up.
3) His peers respect him. He doesn't get on Team USA for being an idiot.
The level of excuses to make Mark Fox seem like he was a competent coach is insane here.
Take care of your Chicken
I said this the day he was announced and even some insiders pretended like it wouldn't be an issue.
Cal, CAL! of all places is not going to be the environment that allows mediocre coaches to rise above what they couldn't do at a place with vastly superior financial resources, fan support, and far fewer scruples, or restrictive academic barriers to entry.
Surprise! We took a coach who couldn't cut it at a place with far *fewer* hardships and he did worse here. Who could have possibly seen this coming???
Jim truly messed this up.
Cal, CAL! of all places is not going to be the environment that allows mediocre coaches to rise above what they couldn't do at a place with vastly superior financial resources, fan support, and far fewer scruples, or restrictive academic barriers to entry.
Surprise! We took a coach who couldn't cut it at a place with far *fewer* hardships and he did worse here. Who could have possibly seen this coming???
Jim truly messed this up.
socaltownie said:TheFiatLux said:Hey SoCal, sorry, but I have to disagree with you and I said this back then, this was always a horrible hire. Even had Fox done "OK," (this is what it's come to, we dream about "top half" of conference, not top of conference...) that wouldn't have justified the decision in retrospect. But everything screamed don't hire this guy. As I said back then, I don't mind at all us taking a chance on a mid major hot coach. Chances are they won't work out, but sometimes they do. Well again (sorry to be a broken record with this phrase) as I said back then, Georgia did the homework for us. They're the one that took a chance on Fox from Reno and it was a failure. In a weak SEC, the best he could do was two NCAA tourneys, with no wins. and of course he was fired after compiling a .494 conference winning percentage.socaltownie said:
To be fair (remember - I STARTED this thread) - there was a logical argument to be made with Mark Fox three years ago. The challenge (and it is a big one) is that the earth has significantly shifted since then.....
2) He clearly can teach. Maybe cal HAS to find (I disagree here but it is logical enough that others on this board hold FIRMLY to the view) diamonds in the rough and Fox is the guy to help coach them up.
I get you're playing devil's advocate, but what exactly has Fox done to show he can teach? It's not clear to me at all.
I think Fox has taught individual and team defense pretty well. To my eyes we mostly look like we know what we're doing at that end of the court.
stu said:
I think Fox has taught individual and team defense pretty well. To my eyes we mostly look like we know what we're doing at that end of the court.
Maybe. I haven't watched all the Cal games that Fox coached, but I remember seeing lots of wide open shooters and blowbys when Cal was on defense. While this is not uncommon at other colleges, I'm not sure I've heard anyone refer to those schools' coaches as being good teachers.
FWIW, when Fox was hired, I was open minded. I was rooting for him to be able to turn around the team's fortunes. I gave him a pass during the "Covid year." In spite of all that, unfortunately, Fox has underwhelmed me with his coaching. He has repeatedly shown an inability to adapt his strategies to the game as it unfolds.
Unless Fox is replaced, I don't see Cal rising out of the Pac-12 cellar. That's unacceptable. I want Cal to compete for the Pac-12 championship and see it make deep NCAA Tournament runs every year. While those may only be pipe dreams, making the NCAA Tournament once every four years or so should be possible. Yet, I don't see that happening under Mark Fox. It's all but clear that Fox needs to be replaced for Cal men's basketball to have any chance at respectability.
I agree Fox should be replaced. Last week. Without better offensive coaching and especially better recruiting I don't see us getting out of the bottom third of the Pac-12.
bearister said:HearstMining said:Jackson realized that NBA success was way more about talent than coaching and I recall him saying he'd never take on a team that needed a complete rebuild.Civil Bear said:If Phil Jackson was the coach we wouldn't have the current talent deficit.Dduster said:
The Bears do not have enough talent to be competitive in the Pac 12. Phil Jackson could be the coach and 10th thru 12th will be the end result. You cannot tell the difference between 'walk-ons' and wasted scholarships.
Kyle Smith took that on.
Kyle Smith took that on at Columbia, USF and now at Washington State.
We need a coach who can rebuild. But what we have is a coach who can maintain. Unfortunately there's nothing to maintain.calumnus said:bearister said:HearstMining said:Jackson realized that NBA success was way more about talent than coaching and I recall him saying he'd never take on a team that needed a complete rebuild.Civil Bear said:If Phil Jackson was the coach we wouldn't have the current talent deficit.Dduster said:
The Bears do not have enough talent to be competitive in the Pac 12. Phil Jackson could be the coach and 10th thru 12th will be the end result. You cannot tell the difference between 'walk-ons' and wasted scholarships.
Kyle Smith took that on.
Kyle Smith took that on at Columbia, USF and now at Washington State.
stu said:
I think Fox has taught individual and team defense pretty well. To my eyes we mostly look like we know what we're doing at that end of the court.
Cal this year has the #83 rated defense on Ken Pom. While that is far better than our offense, that is not particularly good, certainly not elite or NCAA Tournament worthy. Under Cuonzo we had the #19 rated defense.
Others this year:
San Diego State #2
St. Mary's #10
UCLA #14
San Francisco #23
I agree. I should have made it clear that I meant "pretty well" and "mostly" relative to all teams, not to NCAA Tournament teams. My standards have been dropping.calumnus said:stu said:
I think Fox has taught individual and team defense pretty well. To my eyes we mostly look like we know what we're doing at that end of the court.
Cal this year has the #83 rated defense on Ken Pom. While that is far better than our offense, that is not particularly good, certainly not elite or NCAA Tournament worthy. Under Cuonzo we had the #19 rated defense.
Considering the talent level, #83 is actually pretty impressive.stu said:I agree. I should have made it clear that I meant "pretty well" and "mostly" relative to all teams, not to NCAA Tournament teams. My standards have been dropping.calumnus said:stu said:
I think Fox has taught individual and team defense pretty well. To my eyes we mostly look like we know what we're doing at that end of the court.
Cal this year has the #83 rated defense on Ken Pom. While that is far better than our offense, that is not particularly good, certainly not elite or NCAA Tournament worthy. Under Cuonzo we had the #19 rated defense.
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