OT: Official Warriors vs Nuggets Playoff Series Thread

20,342 Views | 226 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by ducky23
BearSD
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concordtom said:

oskidunker said:



Steph always does step back threes in the 4 th quarter.
And sometimes even travels...


So does Doncic. So does Harden.

There was a game a few years ago in which Steph was called for traveling on a step back 3 -- he glared at the official and held up a 1-3 with his hands to say that Harden (who wears #13) is never called for traveling when he takes 3 steps back to shoot a 3.
ducky23
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For anyone deciding who to root for today (mavs or suns) your guess is as good as mine. I've heard very convincing arguments both ways.

I think it really comes down to whether you believe CP3 is completely washed at this point or whether he will be rejuvenated in the next round.

For me, I'm just going to root for the best basketball player to ever put on a cal jersey
BearSD
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ducky23 said:

For anyone deciding who to root for today (mavs or suns) your guess is as good as mine. I've heard very convincing arguments both ways.

I think it really comes down to whether you believe CP3 is completely washed at this point or whether he will be rejuvenated in the next round.

For me, I'm just going to root for the best basketball player to ever put on a cal jersey
No matter who wins today, JKidd's coaching ability has been validated. He is doing a really good job with the Mavs.
concordtom
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BearSD said:

concordtom said:

oskidunker said:



Steph always does step back threes in the 4 th quarter.
And sometimes even travels...


So does Doncic. So does Harden.

There was a game a few years ago in which Steph was called for traveling on a step back 3 -- he glared at the official and held up a 1-3 with his hands to say that Harden (who wears #13) is never called for traveling when he takes 3 steps back to shoot a 3.

I caught Jokic and Giannis doing the same travel pvot move, lifting up their planted left foot before releasing the ball, as in a running hook. So blatant, and an incredible advantage over D.
I hate that!!
concordtom
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ducky23 said:

For anyone deciding who to root for today (mavs or suns) your guess is as good as mine. I've heard very convincing arguments both ways.

I think it really comes down to whether you believe CP3 is completely washed at this point or whether he will be rejuvenated in the next round.

For me, I'm just going to root for the best basketball player to ever put on a cal jersey


…because you want home court advantage.
ducky23
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I'm not going to argue with 4 days off and not having to get on a plane
oskidunker
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Hard to root fir Dim Witter
Go Bears!
sycasey
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What happened to the Suns' offense? They don't even seem to be running plays in this game, just hero ball and chucking.
ducky23
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Anyone catch Kidd mic'd up directing his defense

Can you believe he was interested in the cal job and we end up getting stuck with f'ing Fox?!?!
concordtom
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I do not believe he was interested in the cal job for one second.

HOF nba coach not going on recruiting trips to kiss some 17 year old's ass.
concordtom
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sycasey said:

What happened to the Suns' offense? They don't even seem to be running plays in this game, just hero ball and chucking.


Way worse than W's game 5 collapse, because game 7 elimination. That's a thorough defeat!!! No excuses.
sycasey
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concordtom said:

sycasey said:

What happened to the Suns' offense? They don't even seem to be running plays in this game, just hero ball and chucking.


Way worse than W's game 5 collapse, because game 7 elimination. That's a thorough defeat!!! No excuses.

And they got smoked on their home floor.

Seems like something was wrong with Chris Paul. He had been bad for several games. He's the one who's supposed to run the offense. Hidden injury or just hitting the wall?
ducky23
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Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses
BearForce2
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sycasey said:

What happened to the Suns' offense? They don't even seem to be running plays in this game, just hero ball and chucking.

Json Kidd made some adjustments on defense after the first two losses.
BearForce2
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ducky23 said:

Anyone catch Kidd mic'd up directing his defense

Can you believe he was interested in the cal job and we end up getting stuck with f'ing Fox?!?!
sycasey
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BearForce2 said:

sycasey said:

What happened to the Suns' offense? They don't even seem to be running plays in this game, just hero ball and chucking.

Json Kidd made some adjustments on defense after the first two losses.
Sure, but everyone makes adjustments in every playoff series. You'd think that by Game 7 you'd have some kind of plan for how to attack their defense. Phoenix appeared to have none.
concordtom
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ducky23 said:

Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses

Pat Beverly was on Get Up and First Take yesterday along with JJ Redick. Chris Paul was ripped Big Time. By everyone who had a mic. He goes down as worse than Barkley for never winning. Yesterday was a major legacy blow.
concordtom
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Vegas has W's beating Dallas and Celtics beating Heat, with W's best odds to win it all.

I say we showed horribly for a stretch after all star game and the blowout game reminded everyone of that. Whether that's about sloppiness, too much reliance of the J, not enough size, or bad defense I can't say, but it's not indicative of a Chip.

the Warriors are listed at +130 odds to win the NBA Finals, meaning a 0 bet would win you 0. The Boston Celtics have the second-best odds at +200, followed by the Miami Heat (+400) and the Dallas Mavericks (+650).

For the Warriors-Mavericks Western Conference finals series itself, PointsBet has the Warriors as heavy favorites at -225.

Golden State -if they do reach the NBA Finals, they'd have homecourt advantage over either the Heat or Celtics as well.

The Celtics are -160 to win the ECF series
The Heat are +130 to win the ECF series
Big C
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concordtom said:

ducky23 said:

Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses

Pat Beverly was on Get Up and First Take yesterday along with JJ Redick. Chris Paul was ripped Big Time. By everyone who had a mic. He goes down as worse than Barkley for never winning. Yesterday was a major legacy blow.

I had always thought Chris Paul was overrated, but I sort of had to reassess last year when he got his team to the Finals. This season... I don't know; maybe he's just past his prime.
ducky23
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concordtom said:

ducky23 said:

Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses

Pat Beverly was on Get Up and First Take yesterday along with JJ Redick. Chris Paul was ripped Big Time. By everyone who had a mic. He goes down as worse than Barkley for never winning. Yesterday was a major legacy blow.


ESPN has struck gold with redick and Beverly. They are SOOO much better than the other stupid talking heads who have no idea what they're talking about. Even older players like Barkley, shaq, etc really don't have a pulse on the league. But these guys are both very smart, aren't afraid to say the truth and they can tell you exactly what it's like to guard doncic or Steph because they've done it. When they give an opinion you believe it.
ducky23
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Ok here's what I see as the keys to the series

- Guarding Luka: Ok, so the Mavs run 5 out (unless Powell is playing) and their whole strategy is to use the entire shot clock to hunt mismatches and then iso Luka and have him go 1 on 1 with the court completely spread. If someone over helps, then Luka will kick to the open shooter. Rinse and repeat. What the Warriors will do (and what they have always done whether its Lebron, Harden or Jokic) is they will let Luka get his and try to make sure no one else gets open looks.

Can Luka beat the Warriors by himself? Maybe, but I doubt it. Look, Luka is really really good. But is he this unstoppable force that people are making him out to be? No. I think all this talk about Luka is a lot of recency bias. He had an amazing game 7. But his true shooting percentage for the playoffs is .587%. Which is good, but nothing unsurmountable. As a comparison, Steph's is .601%, Poole is .637% and Jokic is .643%. If you can make Luka a high usage shooter and take away everyone else, the Mavs cannot win. Where things get dicey is if Brunson/Dinwiddie are beating their man off the dribble, and everyone else is draining open corner 3's.

Who is going to guard Luka? Probably the people you expect (Wiggins, Klay, Draymond), they will try to switch Poole/Steph onto him, but I think the Warriors need to be stubborn and either hedge/go under/or fight thru screens. I think Klay is going to be more effective against Luka than people think. Yes, he's lost a step defensively (maybe 2 or 3 steps), but you don't need quickness to guard Luka. You need to be tough, smart and rugged. You can't let him back you down and you can't fall for his pump fakes. Klay can still do that. If you force him into step back threes or turn around mid rangers, you've won.

Luka also had a lot of success against Phoenix because they had no one who could guard him. CP3, Booker and Bridges are all too small. Going against Wiggin/Klay/Draymond will be much more challenging.

- Extra possessions: This is always the key with the Warriors; turnovers and rebounds. The Mavs don't turn the ball over, but they also don't create a lot of turnovers. They were 22nd in the league in forcing turnovers, whereas Memphis was #1. They are also dead last of the 16 playoff teams in offensive rebounds (whereas we all know Memphis was #1 during the regular season). So as long as they keep turnovers to a somewhat reasonable rate, the Warriors should be able to keep the possession game close to even (which for the Warriors is a huge win).

- Tiring out Luka: The best defense against Luka is to take his legs out. Lets see him back people down in the post without his legs. The Mavs haven't faced an offense like the warriors. They are constantly moving, constantly screening and cutting. The Mavs will try to hide Luka on Wiggins. that will work if the Warriors allow that to work. The Mavs will be fine if the Warriors just iso Wiggins on Luka. What needs to happen is that whoever Luka is guarding, they need to be constantly screening off ball. Force Luka to make decisions. Force him to switch and run around trying to chase Steph, Klay, Poole. Morant couldn't do it. That's why Memphis' defense got so good without Morant. Cause he kept getting lost on defense. Put Luka in the same position. Make him earn everything on that side of the ball. Make him box out, make him fight thru screens, make him run. Make him make smart defensive decisions. His one weakness is his stamina. Wear him out.

- Points in the paint: Ok, this is what's going to decide this series. No kidding. Its not Luka and not how many threes Steph or Klay make. Its how many points the Warriors can score in the paint. This is going to determine if its an easy 5 game series or a potential Mavericks victory.

First, we need to understand how the Mavs have been so effective on defense. The Mavs basically have two lockdown defenders (Finney-Smith/Bullock) and the rest are average to subpar defenders. They literally have no other decent defenders (except maybe Powell who we will get to later). So what Kidd does is he takes away the opposing team's two best perimeter options (you will see a lot of Steph getting trapped) with his lockdown guys and the rest of the team plays smart defense with good rotations.

But they have a very glaring weakness. The underbelly of their defense is soft. They have zero paint protection. Of the 16 playoff teams, they are 2nd to last in blocked shots. They survive because their two lockdown perimeter players can usually keep the opposition out of the paint. But if you can get by them, who is going to protect the paint? Kleber? Bertans? Luka? Their only interior defensive presence is Powell, but he's not playable for long stretches because he's an offensive liability (you can't play 5 out with Powell on offense. When Powell plays, either Draymond or Looney can guard him and help on Luka in the paint).

Ok, now lets switch over to the Warriors. The not so secret "secret" behind their success is that they get so many easy buckets in the paint. That's how they win. Its not the threes. Its the threat of the three that creates easy layups. Memphis was able to take that away because they have a bunch of 6'9 athletes to guard the perimeter and if you get by them, you still have to get by JJJ and Adams.

Ok so if Dallas has no interior defense, how were they able to beat Utah and Phoenix. They locked down the two best players and made the third guy try to beat them. Look at Utah, if you take out Mitchell/Clarkson, who is going to drive on you? Old man conley? Bogdonavic? How about if you take out CP3/Booker? Is Bridges going to beat you by driving? lol.

So the key is whether the Warriors have a third scoring option who is able to attack the rim. I think they do. Lets say you put finney-smith on Steph and Bullock on Klay. Who will guard Poole? Who will guard Kuminga? Brunson? Luca? Dinwiddie? Poole only started to struggle against Denver when they started putting Gordon on him. He started to struggle against Memphis once he couldn't pick on Morant and they put the twin towers in the paint. But against Dallas? If Poole (or Kuminga or even Wiggins) can get by their initial defender, they have very little resistance in the paint. I think either Poole or Kuminga can really start cooking. And if that happens, its game over.

So this is the KEY to the entire series. Finney-smith and Bullock aren't leaving steph and klay. they just aren't. That opens up the rest of the floor. If the Warriors have a third scorer who can beat their defender and attack the paint, it opens up everything else. Its like in football, where you just gotta keep running up the middle. Attack that paint. Even if its Draymond. Be aggressive. Draw fouls. Get layups. And then that's when you start raining threes.


HoopDreams
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Good post duck

However I've gone to one Warriors game ever, and it was the recent game vs Dallas

Warriors were up big early, but in the fourth Luka went to work and they won going away

They didn't have Klay that game but did have GP2
oskidunker
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Luka contained. Dim Wit made a few. Curry and Klay will light it ip in the second half.
Go Bears!
HoopDreams
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oskidunker said:

Luka contained. Dim Wit made a few. Curry and Klay will light it ip in the second half.
in the last game between the two, the warriors were up big going into the 4th Q, and then it was All-Luka

but we didn't have Klay then
Big C
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You watch this game and you figure, "sweep".

However...
calumnus
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Big C said:


You watch this game and you figure, "sweep".

However...


Steph Curry the leading rebounder in the game….
sycasey
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Big C said:


You watch this game and you figure, "sweep".

However...

Dallas won't always shoot this poorly. They got some decent looks that they just missed.
sonofabear51
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Agreed. I expect a much closer game on Friday. Happy that they played this well, and maybe it will carry over on Friday.

concordtom
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Big C said:

concordtom said:

ducky23 said:

Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses

Pat Beverly was on Get Up and First Take yesterday along with JJ Redick. Chris Paul was ripped Big Time. By everyone who had a mic. He goes down as worse than Barkley for never winning. Yesterday was a major legacy blow.

I had always thought Chris Paul was overrated, but I sort of had to reassess last year when he got his team to the Finals. This season... I don't know; maybe he's just past his prime.
it
Big C said:

concordtom said:

ducky23 said:

Marc spears reported cp3 was playing with a quad injury

But who knows. Could just be cp3 making excuses

Pat Beverly was on Get Up and First Take yesterday along with JJ Redick. Chris Paul was ripped Big Time. By everyone who had a mic. He goes down as worse than Barkley for never winning. Yesterday was a major legacy blow.

I had always thought Chris Paul was overrated, but I sort of had to reassess last year when he got his team to the Finals. This season... I don't know; maybe he's just past his prime.

It can happen to anyone at any time.
When it happens to a young player, we blame it on youth.
If it happens in the middle of a career, we know they aren't as good as we thought they were.
When it happens late in career, we say they're washed up. And suddenly they're on a short leash.

Curry Klay and Dray are all getting older and could be in same position as Chris soon.
HoopDreams
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calumnus said:

Big C said:


You watch this game and you figure, "sweep".

However...


Steph Curry the leading rebounder in the game….
Curry's hoops IQ is off the scale

He knows where that rebound will go, and then goes get it

amazing player
ducky23
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Everyone is assuming Kidd (who has somehow become some adjustment genius) is going to just make these massive adjustments. I dunno. Let's see what adjustments are even possible:

When Mavs were on offense, I was extremely surprised to see how much they helped on Luka. They sent a ton of help whenever Luka started to drive into the paint.

I thought this would be a bad strategy because Dallas has so many shooters and Luka is a great passer. However, Kerr made an amazing move (that may be the key to guarding the Mavs) and put draymond on Brunson.

Going into the series, I was concerned because I assumed draymond would guard Kleber. I thought this was a problem because draynonds strength is playing a free safety role and helping on defense. But he can't help as much because kleber is an absolute knock down shooter.

So instead the warriors put draymond on Brunson, which was genius because it accomplishes two very important things. Brunson is not close to as good as a shooter, which allows draymond to roam and help on Luka. It also puts draymond on Brunson which completely neutralises the Mavs second best scorer. Brunson gets a lot of his points in the low post. That's not gonna happen against dray. If Brunson struggles, it's very hard for the Mavs to win. Plus putting a smaller player on Kleber is fine because he can't punish the warriors in the paint.

So how do the mavs adjust? I don't know. Making some shots will absolutely help. But beyond a couple open looks early, the warriors rotations were completely on point and almost every three was contested. If I were Kidd, I'd be as stubborn as possible trying to iso Steph/Poole. They tried in game 1, but Steph/Poole would hard hedge and recover and not allow the switch. But I think the Mavs need to attack the hard hedge more or be more stubborn with trying to get the switch.

One other thing the Mavs could do is more off ball movement, and cuts. If the mavs just stay stationary while Luka has the ball, it's way too easy for the warriors to help/recover/rotate. But beyond those things, I don't know what big adjustments can really be made. This is a 5 out team with a heavy usage superstar. They are what they are. And the warriors make a living beating these types of teams in the playoffs.

On defence, the Mavs are simply getting cooked in the paint. It's no surprise. Powell played small and Kleber instantly got in foul trouble trying to protect the paint.

Only thing the Mavs can do is try to over help and clog the lane. And then take their chances with open threes. They have no choice. You have to take away points in the paint. It's like if the opposing team is getting 8 yards a time running up the middle. You have to take it away. And since the Mavs don't have any shot blockers, the only choice is to overhelp and leave open threes and dare the warriors to make open shots. It's not a great strategy, but it's their only strategy.

Also doubling Steph at this point in his career seems kinda dumb. Constantly creating 4 on 3 matchups with no rim protection is a recipe for disaster.

We will see what happens tonight. The Mavs could still win this thing, but they're going to need to rely a lot on just making more contested shots and hoping the warriors miss open looks. It's not ideal, but it's really their only way forward. There are no grand schemes for Kidd to turn to.
philbert
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This is from the Mavs beat writer at the Athletic:


Quote:

the Mavericks shot 28 uncontested 3-pointers, with the nearest defender at least six feet away, and made only eight. They've averaged 20.4 such shots this postseason and knocked them down at a 41.9 percent clip; if they would had converted these looks at the same rate, they would have had 12 more points on the scoreboard.


If that's true and then if the Mavs hit more of their 3s, the Dubs will have to adjust and not collapse on Luka's drives. Luka will score more and the game will be much closer. Dubs may still win but it won't be a blowout.

You will have to expect that their role players will shoot much better in Dallas and can the Dubs continue to hit all of those midrange 2s at such a high rate?
ducky23
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philbert said:

This is from the Mavs beat writer at the Athletic:


Quote:

the Mavericks shot 28 uncontested 3-pointers, with the nearest defender at least six feet away, and made only eight. They've averaged 20.4 such shots this postseason and knocked them down at a 41.9 percent clip; if they would had converted these looks at the same rate, they would have had 12 more points on the scoreboard.


If that's true and then if the Mavs hit more of their 3s, the Dubs will have to adjust and not collapse on Luka's drives. Luka will score more and the game will be much closer. Dubs may still win but it won't be a blowout.

You will have to expect that their role players will shoot much better in Dallas and can the Dubs continue to hit all of those midrange 2s at such a high rate?



I've seen a ton of Mavs people point to this stat, about how many uncontested threes they missed.

While it's true, they missed a lot of uncontested threes, what's not examined is the actual quality of those open looks.

The warriors tried to take away open threes from certain people in certain spots. The one spot you have to take away are the corner threes.

You know how many corner threes bullock and finney smith attempted combined? Three. (They made 1)

Kleber and Bertrans had 4 attempts each. 3 of betrans attempts were 27+ feet. 2 of kleber's attempts were 27+ feet.

I'm not saying that the Mavs can't make more threes. I certainly expect them to. But if you take away the paint, you have to give something. The warriors are trying to limit the sharpshooters and also limit corner threes.


oskidunker
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"
I'm not saying that the Mavs can't make more threes. I certainly expect them to. But if you take away the paint, you have to give something. The warriors are trying to limit the sharpshooters and also limit corner threes. "

No kidding. They-can and they did. Hopefully they cool off.Barkley looks good, for now.
Go Bears!
sycasey
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Warriors had 'em right where they wanted 'em.
 
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