Perhaps he "played up being LDS" when it was beneficial to do so, like when he was going into LDS households or recruiting LDS HS players. And perhaps he merely "played up" being "a man of faith and principles" when recruiting non-LDS players, or visiting non-LDS households. And perhaps he only talked to recruits about basketball and life, and family, or how he could get them prepared for basketball at the next level or life after basketball, whatever life held in store for them after UVU. If he is a strong recruiter it is most likely that he communicates with recruits where they are, whether LDS or non-LDS. He strikes me as being intelligent and smart, and not a person who is likely to mix proselytizing with doing his job. That wasn't his reputation in the NBA. Or at Stanford, where he played bonded with players from all social and ethnic and cultural demographics. I think that reducing the essence of the man, or pigeonholing him, as an LDS proselytizer, no matter the setting or the recruiting target, or as utilizing his basketball program to convert his players or recruits, is probably WAY selling him short.

Pittstop said:

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Perhaps he "played up being LDS" when it was beneficial to do so, like when he was going into LDS households or recruiting LDS HS players. And perhaps he merely "played up" being "a man of faith and principles" when recruiting non-LDS players, or visiting non-LDS households. And perhaps he only talked to recruits about basketball and life, and family, or how he could get them prepared for basketball at the next level or life after basketball, whatever life held in store for them after UVU. If he is a strong recruiter it is most likely that he communicates with recruits where they are, whether LDS or non-LDS. He strikes me as being intelligent and smart, and not a person who is likely to mix proselytizing with doing his job. That wasn't his reputation in the NBA. Or at Stanford, where he played bonded with players from all social and ethnic and cultural demographics. I think that reducing the essence of the man, or pigeonholing him, as an LDS proselytizer, no matter the setting or the recruiting target, or as utilizing his basketball program to convert his players or recruits, is probably WAY selling him short.

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I think I said as much, but maybe in a different thread where I noted he is even more outspoken and progressive on issues of race than Pasternack. The point is, being LDS was an advantage at Utah Valley as it was for Mark Pope (who went 25-10 at UVU the year before taking the bigger job at BYU). It contributed to his success at UVU but is not an advantage at Cal. Holmoe is similar. Nice guy, played in the NFL on Super Bowl Champion teams, knows Montana and Rice, endorsed by Bill Walsh, but not a good fit at Cal, though he turned out to be great as an AD at BYU where being LDS is a huge advantage.

Similarly being such an outspoken Stanford guy is not an advantage at Cal. Both for fans and for him. Haase does not see himself as a Cal guy, quite the opposite, and has no trouble trashing Cal when we compete for recruits. Madsen has always extolled Stanford over Cal. He is also not one to lie. Will he start now or just tell recruits they should take the Stanford offer? It will remain to be seen how many recruits we beat Stanford for under Madsen.

I just don't see him as a good fit and it will limit our huge upside potential, but that is Cal athletics. The caveat being that this is the NIL era and if the donors back him (anyone with a decent personality) he can definitely be successful. I am ready to just be glad he is a good guy, can coach and that we are finally rid of Fox.

Midnight Madseness event to open the season?

calumnus said:

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HKBear97! said:

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calumnus said:

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Pittstop said:

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I would venture that "the majority of his team" is not LDS since I counted at least nine (possibly ten) black players in the team's after-practice photo posted on Madsen's Instagram page. And there are only 15 roster spots on a college bb team, right?

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Ok, majority when he started but not now. My point being he is a unicorn in Utah, he played up being LDS while being able to recruit nationally and internationally. He got the UVU job when Mark Pope took the BYU job.

Here is a recent article:

https://www.thechurchnews.com/members/2023/3/7/23628985/mark-madsen-utah-valley-university-college-basketball-family

"During such experiences, Madsen and his wife have been grateful for their faith and testimonies of the gospel. The couple has a goal to study the scriptures together every day, even if it's only a few verses.

"It's incredibly important," said Madsen, who served as a full-time missionary in Spain. "We love our ward and have an unbelievable ward community. I love being a member of the Church."

Again, that combination of LDS NBA alum makes him a unicorn in Utah. Able to recruit the nation and the world. It is just not as good a fit in Berkeley. He is a good coach and a good person, but I just don't see him as a good fit in Berkeley, starting with his being a Furd.

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Seems like lots of assumptions being made based on his religion and skin color. Who knows how he will recruit, but from various articles it sounds like he puts in the work. And it doesn't seem like the top scorer, rebounder and assist leader for UVU are LDS, but I could be wrong. At the end of the day, it appears he is a man of faith and that seems like an important attribute for many of today's athletes.

Personally not thrilled with the hire, but I am interested to see how he'll do. He played nine years in the NBA with players like Kobe and Shaq, won two rings and was a head coach in the D-League. Those things alone should at least get him in the door for many recruits. While he went to Stanford, maybe making the Final Four at an elite academic institution resonates with some as well. What all that translates to at Cal remains to be seen, but dismissing him based on LDS/white seems simplistic.

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I'm not dismissing him. He is a good coach. I am just saying he is a tremendous fit for a Utah school and his record reflects that. Much will not translate to Cal. The argument for Pasternack's success at UCSB translating to Cal was better.

It is about maximizing strategic advantages. His religious faith, big family and Stanfordness are assets most places, but much less so at Cal. Even potential liabilities with the students given the LDS activism in anti-LGTBQ matters. Being such a vocal Stanford guy is a negative for our fan base, more than at ANY other school. The bottom line is he will be less successful at Cal than he would be elsewhere. Similarly, there are other candidates that can better help Cal realize our potential, make use of our strategic advantages. Good coach, just not a great fit for each other. I feel similarly about Troy Taylor at Stanford. He will not be as successful as he would have been elsewhere (including Cal).

And recruiting is more than just "working hard." Every coach in the country went hard after Shareef and Jaylen Brown.

If Madsen energizes the big donors to develop an effective NIL program, great.

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Entirely possible on the fit part, but he did grow up in Northern California and was successful in college at a similarly academically focused place like Stanford. So I don't see this as a complete fish out of water like Dykes was. My bigger concern is if this hire makes sense given where the program is today and I'm not sure it does. There's a huge lack of talent, fan interest and donor support. From comments here and elsewhere it seems like Pasternak and Abdur-Rahim brought attributes to address all three of those things on day one. Perhaps if Madsen (with his current level of experience) was available to take over when Montgomery left then maybe a good hire at that time. Today after Williams/Wyking and Knowlton/Fox have completely destroyed the place, not so sure.

dimitrig said:

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Mark Madsen coaches story

https://nbacoaches.com/mark-madsen-los-angeles-lakers-assistant-mad-dog-on-the-court-but-far-from-it-off-of-it/

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Just watched this, thanks for posting it. I am slowly coming to grips with this hire. At first, I wasn't a fan but Madsen seems like a great guy with serious connections and experience.

Based on this short video, I can see him being an effective recruiter. He comes off as calm, smooth, smart and thoughtful.

Sidenote: Saw him play in the NCS playoffs in '94 when my EC Gauchos, lead by Circus King, lost to them in an intense matchup!

This site is hilarious.

Laundry racist dodo is the secret password to get an admission to UC Berkeley AND a fully funded practice facility, filled with mercenaries.

lol

Boy!! Sure are a lot of uninformed, subjective comments on this thread. Race, religion have little to do with coaching and recruiting ability. Perhaps, MM can do both in spite of some folks' opinion on his "shortcomings" of religion and skin color. Objectively, he played in college for a great coach, had a decent career in the NBA and was well liked, has global recruiting chops and understands the challenges of coaching and playing at a high level academic institution. Pump the brakes and give him a chance!

bearchamp said:

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NEWSFLASH. Some black players do not want to play for a white coach.

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Probably true. The reverse is also true.

That said, I don't think it was ever an issue for Coach K or guys like him.

Keep trying,Dodo. You'll make a funny joke one of these days. Just not today.

GEOBEAR said:

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Boy!! Sure are a lot of uninformed, subjective comments on this thread. Race, religion have little to do with coaching and recruiting ability. Perhaps, MM can do both in spite of some folks' opinion on his "shortcomings" of religion and skin color. Objectively, he played in college for a great coach, had a decent career in the NBA and was well liked, has global recruiting chops and understands the challenges of coaching and playing at a high level academic institution. Pump the brakes and give him a chance!

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This is just wrong.

Ernie Kent and Lorenzo Romar would BOTH like a word. THose guys recruited to challenging circumstances. They sold in both cases that they had shared experiences and could relate to the players they were recruiting and would create the kind of program that they could thrive.

Now were they great X and O guys? Probably not. Ernie didn't suck up to Phil enough or win enough and Romar got dealt a pretty ****ty hand his last 2 years in Seattle.

I just don't think people get it. I am not sure why. It isn't complicated and it isn't racist.

Look - don't take rando posting SCT word. BOTH SAR and Brown are on the record talking about the importance of that personality to recruiting to a place like Cal. As a father of a kid of color it resonates tremendously to me and my kid is not a highly sought after D1 athlete who will make money for the university.

Can MM succeed? Sure. He did at UVA and had some modest success as a coach in the NBA. There are PLENTY of White coaches that do great in college BB. There are plenty of members of the LDS that do as well.

But MM starts from a position where his STRENGTHS are misaligned to the job. Cal does NOT recruit traditionally from the LDS community. Indeed, we LOST players that were more religious on SOnny's watch when they came to Cal and found the disconnect. Cal has also never recruited well in the affluent exurban communities of Danville. It should be telling and raise at least an eyebrow that MM HIMSELF fealt more comfortable going across the bay to the Farm. And of course he did. Danville ins't southside.

And then there is all this frankly wishful thinking about international players. Cal has leveraged the international market _ONCE_ in 50 years with any sustained strength - when BB was working contacts to recruit some skilled players from Isreal. Except for that our International recruits have largely been a product of finishing prep programs in the states for international recruits. Contrast with St. Mary's and the direct pipeline to Australia.

One of the things I do professionally is work with small businesses ALL THE TIME to get them to lean into what they are are really good at. Don't be Jack Walsh. Don't try to be something that you are not. First focus on your strengths and your untapped adjancent potential. Until Cal does this it will suck.

bearchamp said:

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NEWSFLASH. Some black players do not want to play for a white coach.

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NEWSFLASH

Some Black players prefer to play for white coaches.

socaltownie said:

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GoCal80 said:

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His former NBA teammates seem to like and respect him a lot:

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-background

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It is a great fluff piece. He seems to nicely fit into an organization and is a good selfless servant leader. Good for him.

He has to outrecruit folks like Altman and Cronin and USC (and SDSU). He starts from square 1 in his relationships with the pipelines that feed soCal talent who were not even BORN when he played for the Lakers. I am SURE this will all work out.

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No idea why we had a dinosaur (Montgomery) have an outsized role on this hire. Stupid. The guy couldn't get us to the second weekend in the tourney and people think he's a God.

socaltownie said:

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GoCal80 said:

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His former NBA teammates seem to like and respect him a lot:

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-background

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It is a great fluff piece. He seems to nicely fit into an organization and is a good selfless servant leader. Good for him.

He has to outrecruit folks like Altman and Cronin and USC (and SDSU). He starts from square 1 in his relationships with the pipelines that feed soCal talent who were not even BORN when he played for the Lakers. I am SURE this will all work out.

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Well, first we have to see who his assistants are. They often do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to recruiting.

Also, I am not sure he is starting from scratch. I saw a photo of him out scouting at O'Dowd. That's not SoCal but it is NorCal.

Out on the recruiting trail for @UVUmbb and ran into my old @lakers point guard Brian Shaw at Bishop O’Dowd HS. Grew up playing summer league games in this gym @srvhs pic.twitter.com/ciukj9MZYT

— Mark Madsen (@madsen_mark) September 13, 2019

I'm having a hard time understanding why so many people think Madsen is a clear downgrade from Pasternak.
Here are some of the takes I've seen that I respectfully disagree with.

- "He's a Stanford guy": Casey Jacobsen is a stanford guy. Tiger Woods is a stanford guy. John Elway is a stanford guy. Madsen is actually a decent human being who happened to go to Stanford (and yes, there aren't a lot of those). I'd argue he's actually much more of a Cal guy than a Stanford guy. I think any fears that he won't "get" Cal or won't fit in at Berkeley are unfounded.

- "Monty handpicked Madsen thus Madsen must be anti-NIL or anti-transfer portal": This one makes zero sense. Yes, Madsen is going to be behind the 8 ball a bit compared to JP, but there's nothing I've seen from Madsen that would lead me to believe that he's not going to attack the NIL and transfer portal with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Monty's prehistoric notions on college basketball have no bearing on Madsen's outlook on the transfer portal or NIL.

- Monty and Jay John picked Madsen over Pasternak because they were just bitter about JP beating them on some recruits: I don't think Monty was bitter. More like they see JP as a dishonest used car salesman who has no integrity or character. Yes, what JP did while at Arizona would be fine today. But what he did was still arguably illegal and at the very least pretty damn shady AT THE TIME. Monty, more so than anyone on this board, understands that when you are a leader of young men, character and integrity matter. In my own personal opinion, I had JP as my second choice. But in truth, he made me uneasy. Yes, he represented the quickest fix and that was alluring. But I think over the long haul, I'm not sure I want Cal basketball being led by someone with questionable ethics and character. If that makes me sound antiquated and naive, so be it. We are the #1 public university in the world. We aren't Arizona. There's no reason we can't win with class.

- Madsen can't recruit because he's white and LDS: Look, AAR was my first choice. All things being equal, I'd rather have a coach who is best able to relate to the young men he's recruiting. Sometimes that's going to mean preferring an AA coach. But Madsen is not your average white coach. He's played in the NBA. He's very respected by the biggest names in the sport. He's been an NBA assistant and a HC in the D-league. This isn't some middle aged white dude like Bennett, Fox, etc. There's nothing in Madsen's resume that says he won't be able to relate to young black men.

At the end of the day, while I supported his hiring, I had a lot of questions about Pasternak. I wondered why so many donors so ardently backed him even though there's really nothing special about Pasternak as a person or coach. It really seemed like his only plus quality was that he was chummy with some big time donors. And yes, an immediate influx of money would've been very helpful in jump starting the program. But I'd argue that Madsen is a better coach, more relatable to young black men, has a better more diverse coaching and playing resume, is smarter, more charismatic and above all...has way more character. Yes, the hiring process was suspect. Yes, there's going to be a learning curve. Yes, Madsen will have to build west coast ties (this could accelerated depending on his staff makeup). And yes, I understand that some of the donors are a little hurt because they didn't get their buddy. But I believe that once people get a chance to meet him, Madsen will win them over. I get that Pasternak stans are freaking out...but I truly believe in the long run, Madsen is going to end up being the better choice.

socaltownie said:

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GoCal80 said:

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His former NBA teammates seem to like and respect him a lot:

https://www.si.com/college/cal/basketball/madsen-background

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It is a great fluff piece. He seems to nicely fit into an organization and is a good selfless servant leader. Good for him.

He has to outrecruit folks like Altman and Cronin and USC (and SDSU). He starts from square 1 in his relationships with the pipelines that feed soCal talent who were not even BORN when he played for the Lakers. I am SURE this will all work out.

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This is BS what you wrote. Kobe was as serious as the come, he would not give a quote to some fluff piece.

This looks like a legit good hire.

ducky23 said:

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I'm having a hard time understanding why so many people think Madsen is a clear downgrade from Pasternak.
Here are some of the takes I've seen that I respectfully disagree with.

- "He's a Stanford guy": Casey Jacobsen is a stanford guy. Tiger Woods is a stanford guy. John Elway is a stanford guy. Madsen is actually a decent human being who happened to go to Stanford (and yes, there aren't a lot of those). I'd argue he's actually much more of a Cal guy than a Stanford guy. I think any fears that he won't "get" Cal or won't fit in at Berkeley are unfounded.

- "Monty handpicked Madsen thus Madsen must be anti-NIL or anti-transfer portal": This one makes zero sense. Yes, Madsen is going to be behind the 8 ball a bit compared to JP, but there's nothing I've seen from Madsen that would lead me to believe that he's not going to attack the NIL and transfer portal with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Monty's prehistoric notions on college basketball have no bearing on Madsen's outlook on the transfer portal or NIL.

- Monty and Jay John picked Madsen over Pasternak because they were just bitter about JP beating them on some recruits: I don't think Monty was bitter. More like they see JP as a dishonest used car salesman who has no integrity or character. Yes, what JP did while at Arizona would be fine today. But what he did was still arguably illegal and at the very least pretty damn shady AT THE TIME. Monty, more so than anyone on this board, understands that when you are a leader of young men, character and integrity matter. In my own personal opinion, I had JP as my second choice. But in truth, he made me uneasy. Yes, he represented the quickest fix and that was alluring. But I think over the long haul, I'm not sure I want Cal basketball being led by someone with questionable ethics and character. If that makes me sound antiquated and naive, so be it. We are the #1 public university in the world. We aren't Arizona. There's no reason we can't win with class.

- Madsen can't recruit because he's white and LDS: Look, AAR was my first choice. All things being equal, I'd rather have a coach who is best able to relate to the young men he's recruiting. Sometimes that's going to mean preferring an AA coach. But Madsen is not your average white coach. He's played in the NBA. He's very respected by the biggest names in the sport. He's been an NBA assistant and a HC in the D-league. This isn't some middle aged white dude like Bennett, Fox, etc. There's nothing in Madsen's resume that says he won't be able to relate to young black men.

At the end of the day, while I supported his hiring, I had a lot of questions about Pasternak. I wondered why so many donors so ardently backed him even though there's really nothing special about Pasternak as a person or coach. It really seemed like his only plus quality was that he was chummy with some big time donors. And yes, an immediate influx of money would've been very helpful in jump starting the program. But I'd argue that Madsen is a better coach, more relatable to young black men, has a better more diverse coaching and playing resume, is smarter, more charismatic and above all...has way more character. Yes, the hiring process was suspect. Yes, there's going to be a learning curve. Yes, Madsen will have to build west coast ties (this could accelerated depending on his staff makeup). And yes, I understand that some of the donors are a little hurt because they didn't get their buddy. But I believe that once people get a chance to meet him, Madsen will win them over. I get that Pasternak stans are freaking out...but I truly believe in the long run, Madsen is going to end up being the better choice.

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I think people also liked JP because he has coached at both Cal and UCSB and so somehow he would be able to navigate the administration better than other candidates. There is some value to that but it is overblown. Most of the best coaching candidates out there won't check that box and that's totally fine.

ducky23 said:

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I'm having a hard time understanding why so many people think Madsen is a clear downgrade from Pasternak.
Here are some of the takes I've seen that I respectfully disagree with.

- "He's a Stanford guy": Casey Jacobsen is a stanford guy. Tiger Woods is a stanford guy. John Elway is a stanford guy. Madsen is actually a decent human being who happened to go to Stanford (and yes, there aren't a lot of those). I'd argue he's actually much more of a Cal guy than a Stanford guy. I think any fears that he won't "get" Cal or won't fit in at Berkeley are unfounded.

- "Monty handpicked Madsen thus Madsen must be anti-NIL or anti-transfer portal": This one makes zero sense. Yes, Madsen is going to be behind the 8 ball a bit compared to JP, but there's nothing I've seen from Madsen that would lead me to believe that he's not going to attack the NIL and transfer portal with an enthusiasm unknown to mankind. Monty's prehistoric notions on college basketball have no bearing on Madsen's outlook on the transfer portal or NIL.

- Monty and Jay John picked Madsen over Pasternak because they were just bitter about JP beating them on some recruits: I don't think Monty was bitter. More like they see JP as a dishonest used car salesman who has no integrity or character. Yes, what JP did while at Arizona would be fine today. But what he did was still arguably illegal and at the very least pretty damn shady AT THE TIME. Monty, more so than anyone on this board, understands that when you are a leader of young men, character and integrity matter. In my own personal opinion, I had JP as my second choice. But in truth, he made me uneasy. Yes, he represented the quickest fix and that was alluring. But I think over the long haul, I'm not sure I want Cal basketball being led by someone with questionable ethics and character. If that makes me sound antiquated and naive, so be it. We are the #1 public university in the world. We aren't Arizona. There's no reason we can't win with class.

- Madsen can't recruit because he's white and LDS: Look, AAR was my first choice. All things being equal, I'd rather have a coach who is best able to relate to the young men he's recruiting. Sometimes that's going to mean preferring an AA coach. But Madsen is not your average white coach. He's played in the NBA. He's very respected by the biggest names in the sport. He's been an NBA assistant and a HC in the D-league. This isn't some middle aged white dude like Bennett, Fox, etc. There's nothing in Madsen's resume that says he won't be able to relate to young black men.

At the end of the day, while I supported his hiring, I had a lot of questions about Pasternak. I wondered why so many donors so ardently backed him even though there's really nothing special about Pasternak as a person or coach. It really seemed like his only plus quality was that he was chummy with some big time donors. And yes, an immediate influx of money would've been very helpful in jump starting the program. But I'd argue that Madsen is a better coach, more relatable to young black men, has a better more diverse coaching and playing resume, is smarter, more charismatic and above all...has way more character. Yes, the hiring process was suspect. Yes, there's going to be a learning curve. Yes, Madsen will have to build west coast ties (this could accelerated depending on his staff makeup). And yes, I understand that some of the donors are a little hurt because they didn't get their buddy. But I believe that once people get a chance to meet him, Madsen will win them over. I get that Pasternak stans are freaking out...but I truly believe in the long run, Madsen is going to end up being the better choice.

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"Stanford guy" - Yes. There are the self entitle *****s. But there are also "stanford guys (and gals) that hail from america's vast upper upper middle class exurbs. Danville. Cherry Creek. To me Madsen and McCafferty are those guys. I am sure they are great human beings. But that experience is night and day from those experienced from the middle class upbringing the vast majority of our players hail from (not impoverished - middle class California).

NIL. The issue is whether Madsen understands why Furd's (and Monty's) anti-NIL won't work at Cal but MIGHT....just MIGHT on fthe Farm. This gets at a core question - does MM and the community understand our competitor for recruits is NOT Standford but really UCLA and SDSU. Those are the colleges that offer the most "analogus" experience.

NBA - Yes. That is good. But does a journeyman Subs experience 15 years ago translate and give him an edge? FIngers frossed.

I think the issue ultimately is program building. LOTS of rumors but if Pasternack really came with the check to build the facility than you hire him. Even if he sucks. Even if he gets yoiu on probation. Even if Monty is pissed. Because at the end of 4 years you got steel in the ground and a practice facilty on the way. Life is not linear and this is a multi-year process. You hire for that and you look at the big picture.

(And AAR brough connections to the new generation of NBA superstars. Frankly let Jaylen pick our next coach because HE is really the face of the league for the next few years and his connections and support of the program is a lot more important than Mike ****ing Montgomery).

calfanz said:

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bearchamp said:

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NEWSFLASH. Some black players do not want to play for a white coach.

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NEWSFLASH

Some Black players prefer to play for white coaches.

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And for those (arguably few) with that preference, they have over 300 to choose from. 91% of D1 coaches. 100% of the coaches in the PAC-12. All 12.

It is just a missed opportunity. Jaylen Brown advocating for the benefits of Cal hiring an African American coach is something people should not dismiss. He is speaking from personal experience. It is how Cal can land McDonald's All Americans like himself all the way from Georgia. Elite players recruited by all the top programs.

It is just Cal not being as great as it could be. We can go back to being mediocre and complaining that no one can recruit elite players to Cal, no one can win here.