When MM was hired, some seemed to be planning for at least a sweet 16; now the bloom appears, for some, off the rose.

MM needs at least 3 years to build something from what was nothing. Even this year's squad has limitations and the putting 5 new pieces together is no easy task.

The every present elixir for Bear fans: hope down the road...

3146gabby said:

---

When MM was hired, some seemed to be planning for at least a sweet 16; now the bloom appears, for some, off the rose.

MM needs at least 3 years to build something from what was nothing. Even this year's squad has limitations and the putting 5 new pieces together is no easy task.

The every present elixir for Bear fans: hope down the road...

---

I think the "some" you are referring to was very, VERY few.

I know this is really old news, but I think the vast majority of us are seeing exactly what we were expecting to get on the offensive end, but far below what we were hoping for on the defensive end.

I knew Madsen was not much of an Xs and Os coach. But even by my modest expectations he has underwhelmed. Arizona has fantastic talent. I am not disappointed to lose to them. I am disappointed that Cal is going to have a gametime coaching disadvantage against all opponents.

Putting years on turnaround does not make sense with all the portal turmoil. Teams change drastically from year to year. Cal is going to be completely different next year, there will be very little scoring coming back. Recruiting is going to be everything. We will see what happens.

I am shocked at how bad our defense looks.

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

What part of Mark Fox's coaching was good?

And he not only couldn't recruit but also ran off the good players he inherited.

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

The players he has brought in are decent, but he hasn't landed a killer recruit yet. Jaylon Tyson was a Top 50 (4 star) recruit out of high school. That is probably the closest so far. I think our record reflects that.

We can talk about needing time to gel, etc but when Michigan landed Chris Webber and the others they went from a losing record to the NCAA title game in one season. Talent can do that in basketball. We don't have that kind of talent. So, yes, the recruiting needs to get better.

i am not saying Madsen needs to sign 4 McDonald's AAs in one class like Michigan did but signing one would be a start. Oregon signed two. USC signed two. Our new conference rival Duke signed three. Even Stanford signed one.

Like I said, I am hopeful.

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

The players he has brought in are decent, but he hasn't landed a killer recruit yet. Jaylon Tyson was a Top 50 (4 star) recruit out of high school. That is probably the closest so far. I think our record reflects that.

We can talk about needing time to gel, etc but when Michigan landed Chris Webber and the others they went from a losing record to the NCAA title game in one season. Talent can do that in basketball. We don't have that kind of talent. So, yes, the recruiting needs to get better.

i am not saying Madsen needs to sign 4 McDonald's AAs in one class like Michigan did but signing one would be a start. Oregon signed two. USC signed two. Our new conference rival Duke signed three. Even Stanford signed one.

Like I said, I am hopeful.

---

Tyson is the best offensive player we've had for years (maybe better than Bradley and more productive than Jaylen Brown)

Aimaq is the best C we've had since Rabb

Kennedy is at least as good a defender as Brown, with way more offense, and as good a passer

Cone is the best shooter we've had since Bird/Matthews

the problem is with all these new players we haven't jelled on defense ... also, I think we win some of these close ones with a healthy Celestine or Kennedy, and a lot of the reason we are underperforming is those close losses crash our record

I'm expecting us to be win a lot of our home games if we can improve our defense with some continuity and health (although I don't like losing Okofor for so long, as we are thin in the frontcourt)

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

The players he has brought in are decent, but he hasn't landed a killer recruit yet. Jaylon Tyson was a Top 50 (4 star) recruit out of high school. That is probably the closest so far. I think our record reflects that.

We can talk about needing time to gel, etc but when Michigan landed Chris Webber and the others they went from a losing record to the NCAA title game in one season. Talent can do that in basketball. We don't have that kind of talent. So, yes, the recruiting needs to get better.

i am not saying Madsen needs to sign 4 McDonald's AAs in one class like Michigan did but signing one would be a start. Oregon signed two. USC signed two. Our new conference rival Duke signed three. Even Stanford signed one.

Like I said, I am hopeful.

---

Tyson is the best offensive player we've had for years (maybe better than Bradley and more productive than Jaylen Brown)

Aimaq is the best C we've had since Rabb

Kennedy is at least as good a defender as Brown, with way more offense, and as good a passer

Cone is the best shooter we've had since Bird/Matthews

the problem is with all these new players we haven't jelled on defense ... also, I think we win some of these close ones with a healthy Celestine or Kennedy, and a lot of the reason we are underperforming is those close losses crash our record

I'm expecting us to be win a lot of our home games if we can improve our defense with some continuity and health (although I don't like losing Okofor for so long, as we are thin in the frontcourt)

---

I hope you are right but so far our record shows me that maybe you are overestimating how good some of these guys are.

I will be glad to be proven wrong.

The roster is massively upgraded which is a pretty low bar given how bad the team was the last two years.

My sense is that notwithstanding the upgrade, the roster is still middle of the Pac-12/ACC. And the players, while talented in some respects, are not particularly suited for playing the way Madsen wants (particularly on defense). Even with the portal, it is going to take a few years for Madsen to really shape the roster. Hopefully he has the recruiting chops to make it happen.

And just to be clear, I think a lot of the excitement/optimism around Madsen was based on the new energy and enthusiasm he brought, not to mention his clear desire to build a connection between the team and its fans. No one was expecting a sweet 16 run. Losing so many close games has skewed the W/L record, but the brand of basketball is much improved (even with all the injuries).

sluggo said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

Definite great job in the portal.

The young guys are not impressive. I guess he had to follow through on the Curtis scholarship, but he is not a scholarship level player. Nor is Pavlovic. Wilkinson looks so-so to me. I thought the high school recruiting would be better.

---

Except for Pavlovic, who was more of a last minute guy, none of the other guys are Madsen's basically because he didn't have time to work on the high school guys. Much more similiar to the Braun - Carlise, Kilgore, Elson season.

Hard to make a judgment on Wilkinson because even at the high school to college stage some players do excel. Also I cautiously hold up hope that eventually Rodney Brown will be a solid conference shooting guard.

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

The players he has brought in are decent, but he hasn't landed a killer recruit yet. Jaylon Tyson was a Top 50 (4 star) recruit out of high school. That is probably the closest so far. I think our record reflects that.

We can talk about needing time to gel, etc but when Michigan landed Chris Webber and the others they went from a losing record to the NCAA title game in one season. Talent can do that in basketball. We don't have that kind of talent. So, yes, the recruiting needs to get better.

i am not saying Madsen needs to sign 4 McDonald's AAs in one class like Michigan did but signing one would be a start. Oregon signed two. USC signed two. Our new conference rival Duke signed three. Even Stanford signed one.

Like I said, I am hopeful.

---

Tyson is the best offensive player we've had for years (maybe better than Bradley and more productive than Jaylen Brown)

Aimaq is the best C we've had since Rabb

Kennedy is at least as good a defender as Brown, with way more offense, and as good a passer

Cone is the best shooter we've had since Bird/Matthews

the problem is with all these new players we haven't jelled on defense ... also, I think we win some of these close ones with a healthy Celestine or Kennedy, and a lot of the reason we are underperforming is those close losses crash our record

I'm expecting us to be win a lot of our home games if we can improve our defense with some continuity and health (although I don't like losing Okofor for so long, as we are thin in the frontcourt)

---

I hope you are right but so far our record shows me that maybe you are overestimating how good some of these guys are.

I will be glad to be proven wrong.

---

Agreed. I just don't see a lot of talent on this roster. Better than last year and probably the best Madsen could do given the circumstances, but it's a below median Power 5 roster. The record reflects that. Maybe Madsen and staff can get them to gel, the light goes on and they go on a run, but they are not going to win on talent.

HoopDreams said:

---

HKBear97! said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

HoopDreams said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

sluggo said:

---

dimitrig said:

---

Todd Bozeman wasn't a good coach, but he gave us one of our few Sweet 16s because he recruited.

Mark Fox was a good coach, but he lost umpteen games in a row because he couldn't recruit.

---

Mark Fox was awful in all dimensions.

---

Okay, I concede.

My point is that I will accept a coach that is weak on X's and O's if he delivers the recruits.

Madsen hasn't done that yet either, but I am hopeful.

---

He hasn't delivered the recruits???

I like all 4 transfers he brought in, and he kept Brown in the class who also is a good player

my concern is next season ... will he be able to bring in just as talented players as well as keep our best players so we can improve and have some continuity?

---

The players he has brought in are decent, but he hasn't landed a killer recruit yet. Jaylon Tyson was a Top 50 (4 star) recruit out of high school. That is probably the closest so far. I think our record reflects that.

We can talk about needing time to gel, etc but when Michigan landed Chris Webber and the others they went from a losing record to the NCAA title game in one season. Talent can do that in basketball. We don't have that kind of talent. So, yes, the recruiting needs to get better.

i am not saying Madsen needs to sign 4 McDonald's AAs in one class like Michigan did but signing one would be a start. Oregon signed two. USC signed two. Our new conference rival Duke signed three. Even Stanford signed one.

Like I said, I am hopeful.

---

Tyson is the best offensive player we've had for years (maybe better than Bradley and more productive than Jaylen Brown)

Aimaq is the best C we've had since Rabb

Kennedy is at least as good a defender as Brown, with way more offense, and as good a passer

Cone is the best shooter we've had since Bird/Matthews

the problem is with all these new players we haven't jelled on defense ... also, I think we win some of these close ones with a healthy Celestine or Kennedy, and a lot of the reason we are underperforming is those close losses crash our record

I'm expecting us to be win a lot of our home games if we can improve our defense with some continuity and health (although I don't like losing Okofor for so long, as we are thin in the frontcourt)

---

I hope you are right but so far our record shows me that maybe you are overestimating how good some of these guys are.

I will be glad to be proven wrong.

---

Agreed. I just don't see a lot of talent on this roster. Better than last year and probably the best Madsen could do given the circumstances, but it's a below median Power 5 roster. The record reflects that. Maybe Madsen and staff can get them to gel, the light goes on and they go on a run, but they are not going to win on talent.

---

I think we have good talent offensively. It's going to take time for so many new parts to gel offensively.

However I do not understand our defense considering we have so many veterans on this team. One under freshmen is in the rotation with two sophs who got a lot of run last season. Should be a lot better defensively.

---

Its either the coaching or the Talent. Hard to know at this point but it will become clearer. I think Cone should be reigned in a little.

I wonder what games people are watching. The problems with this team are both in defense and offense. Terrible lack of discipline on offense which devolves into hero ball. Terrible lack of hustle on defense, lack of intensity. As to talent, Cal has plenty of talent to play much better than they are. I mean, look at the ASU game. Madsen needs to assert himself.

bearchamp said:

---

I wonder what games people are watching. The problems with this team are both in defense and offense. Terrible lack of discipline on offense which devolves into hero ball. Terrible lack of hustle on defense, lack of intensity. As to talent, Cal has plenty of talent to play much better than they are. I mean, look at the ASU game. Madsen needs to assert himself.

---

Every team has alot of transfers. It doesn't take the awhole season to learn how to play together.

calumnus said:

---

... IMO Celestine needs to play more. Cone less, maybe just not at the end of games when we have a lead. Maybe play more Brown or even Robinson? ...

---

I liked what I saw of Brown tonight. He's coming along and IMHO earning more playing time.