ducky23 said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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calumnus said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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Civil Bear said:

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RedlessWardrobe said:

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sycasey said:

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Wonder how far that 97 team could have gone with Ed Gray healthy.

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When I praised Ed Gray on another thread, there was a poster who replied that the Bears were actually better after he got hurt because he didn't make his teammates better. Oh yeah, right. I think they would have beat North Carolina and possibly made it to the final four.

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You are misremembering. I said Gray wasn't the best Cal NBA prospect because he didn't make others around him better. I also said Cal was playing its best basketball after his injury. You tried to refute it, but it is pretty obvious. Maybe they go on to beat UNC with Ed Gray. Who knows. But without Cal playing its best basketball of the season after his injury, they may never have got in the position to play UNC for an elite 8 spot.

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My apologies that I mixed and matched the reason for Ed's deficiencies. I shouldn't have done that. But I did point out that without him the Bears lost to a. Furd team they had previously beaten. Unfortunately for all of us, what might have been will never be known for sure.

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Bozeman loved playing small

Minutes Per Game ranking that season
1. Duck
2. Gray
3. McGruder
4. Grigsby
5. McQueen
6. Stewart
7. Gonzales
8. Marks
9. Kenyon Jones

We had a GREAT frontline, yet 4 of the 5 getting the most minutes were guards.

Going small, but with Gray as a volume shooter, did not make sense. So Gray getting hurt forced Bozeman to play bigger, with Stewart, Grigsby, Gonzales and Marks all getting more minutes. We could have done that with Gray too.

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Again, this was Braun's team. But since Ed Gray was voted CONFERENCE PLAYER OF THE YEAR,
did it ever occur to you that maybe it was Duck,McGruder, and McQueen that were getting too many minutes at the expense of the bigger guys? I was a big fan of Anwar McQueen, Randy, and Prentice But here I am now using them as a measuring stick to a guy who averaged 25 points per game and was voted the league's POY. Somebody help me' please!

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I don't care if he's playing on the '95 Bulls, Randy Duck should always be the minutes per game leader on any team he plays for

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You tell 'em Ducky. Actually it's a shame we couldn't have just cloned about 8 or 9 more Randys on that '97 team and used them all for our entire rotation. There would now be a 1959 and a 1997 banner hanging from the rafters!

I talked to a coach (not Braun) after the Villanova win at the team hotel lobby celebration. I asked about Gray (who was sitting on a couch) being ready for next round. The coach said that even were Gray healthy enough, he might not play because (paraphrasing) "the team has gotten used to playing without him and is doing really well". I submit this simply as a report of a single coach's comment.

And as I recall, the Bears were winning by 10 against Carolina before Jamison just went ballistic. Not sure Gray would have helped stop Jamison.

calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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bearister said:

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ducky23 said:

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That 93-94 team (fully healthy) was probably the most talented. But if I remember, both grigsby and stevie Johnson got hurt. And duck, Michael Stewart and anwar were all freshman. That team just didn't have the depth.

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I'll take 92-93 because Kidd/Murray led Bears beat Bobby Hurley/Coach K.
93-94 still Kidd/Murray led but with the taint of loss to Wisconsin-Green Bay in Round 1. Kidd played his heart out but Murray tanked, later admitting that he, "just couldn't get up for that competition."

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I forget what sort of structured offense/defense WGB was running, but Bozeman had absolutely no idea how to deal with it and, it being the first round, we had a few days to prepare, right? Sad way for Kidd to finish up as a Bear.

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Dick Bennett was their coach and he was famous for his "pack line" defense "a gap defense that clogs up potential driving lanes and prevents ball handlers from getting to the paint" ie perfect for stopping Kidd and Murray. GB played tough/rough defense and had 2 future NBA forwards who gave Murray and Buckley fits. With the driving lanes "clogged" we shot threes and were just 2 of 19 from 3, or we still drove and were fouled, shooting 17 of 24 from the line and lost 57-61.

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There were two future NBA players on that GB team?

I guess Jeff Nordgaard played 13 games for the Bucks. Who is the other?

dimitrig said:

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calumnus said:

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Big C said:

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bearister said:

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ducky23 said:

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That 93-94 team (fully healthy) was probably the most talented. But if I remember, both grigsby and stevie Johnson got hurt. And duck, Michael Stewart and anwar were all freshman. That team just didn't have the depth.

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I'll take 92-93 because Kidd/Murray led Bears beat Bobby Hurley/Coach K.
93-94 still Kidd/Murray led but with the taint of loss to Wisconsin-Green Bay in Round 1. Kidd played his heart out but Murray tanked, later admitting that he, "just couldn't get up for that competition."

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I forget what sort of structured offense/defense WGB was running, but Bozeman had absolutely no idea how to deal with it and, it being the first round, we had a few days to prepare, right? Sad way for Kidd to finish up as a Bear.

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Dick Bennett was their coach and he was famous for his "pack line" defense "a gap defense that clogs up potential driving lanes and prevents ball handlers from getting to the paint" ie perfect for stopping Kidd and Murray. GB played tough/rough defense and had 2 future NBA forwards who gave Murray and Buckley fits. With the driving lanes "clogged" we shot threes and were just 2 of 19 from 3, or we still drove and were fouled, shooting 17 of 24 from the line and lost 57-61.

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There were two future NBA players on that GB team?

I guess Jeff Nordgaard played 13 games for the Bucks. Who is the other?

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Well, OK, marginal NBA players…. Logan Vander Velden played 15 games for the Clippers.

calumnus said:

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Based on Sports Reference Rating system:

1. 59-60 Newell 28-2 Lost Final
2. 96-97 Braun 23-9 5 seed Sweet 16 loss to #1 UNC
3. 09-10 Montgomery 24-11 8 seed second round loss.
4. 58-59 Newell 25-4 won NCAA Final
5. 15-16 Martin 23-11 4 seed 1st round loss
6. 00-01 Braun 20-11 8 seed 1st round loss
7. 93-94 Bozeman 22-8 5 seed 1st round loss
8. 11-12 Montgomery 24-10 12 seed 1st round loss
9. 08-09 Montgomery 22-11 7 seed 1st round loss
10. 01-02 Braun 23-9 6 seed 2nd round loss

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With all due respect to you and the Sports Reference Rating System, there are several things wrong with this list. First of all, the list leaves out three of the greatest teams in Cal history:

1957-1958 Newell 21-5 Conference Champion, losing in the Elite 8 in overtime to Seattle and Elgin Baylor. (Some Cal players were Don McIntosh, Earl Robinson, Al Buch, Bob Dalton, George Sterling, Denny Fitzpatrick, Jack Grout)

1956-1957 Newell 19-9, Conference Champion, losing in the Elite 8 to USF (Some Cal players were
All-American Larry Friend, Earl Robinson, Duane Asplund, Don McIntosh, Mike Diaz, Gabe Arillaga, and Ev McKeen)

1945-1946 Price 30-6, Conference Champion, losing in the Final 4 Consolation Game to Ohio State (Some Cal players were All-American Andy Wolfe, Bob Hogeboom, Merv La Faille)

And again with all due respect, only 3 teams on the list you gave won a conference championship, which is one the most important goals that teams strive to accomplish. The Cal teams that have won Conference Championships are

2010 Montgomery
1960 Newell
1959 Newell
1958 Newell
1957 Newell
1946 Price
1932 Price
1929 Price
1927 Price
1926 Price
1925 Price
1924 Price
1921 Price
1916 Coach unknown

Finally, I would rank the Cal 1959 team as the all-time #1 best Cal Team. The 1960 Cal team won the conference championship. They had the best record of a Cal team ever, losing only one conference game, and had only one other loss, the NCAA Championship game. The 1960 team had the highest final ranking of any Cal team ever that I know of. They did have a little easier road to the NCAA Final, playing only two ranked teams in the NCAA tournament, #1 Cincinnati, and #3 ranked Ohio State.

The 1959 team just got better and better as the season rolled along. They won the conference championship. They had a tougher road in the NCAA Tournament, as they had to beat #18 Utah, a very good #15 St Marys team (LaRoy Doss, Tom Meschery, Dick Sigaty, Joe Barry, Bob Dold, and Joey Gardere) which had lost to Cal by only 2 points earlier at Harmon), #3 Cincinnati and Oscar Robertson, and then #8 West Virginia and Jerry West in the Title game.

The deciding factor for me is that Cal's 1959 team won the NCAA Title and the '60 team did not.

I don't ask that you replace any of the teams on your list. They were all good Cal teams. Just expand or modify it to include teams that accomplished more. Winning the conference is a huge accomplishment, and winning the NCAA an even bigger one.

Arizona won the national championship that year, and Cal was the last team to beat them. Extrapolating forward from that isn't always accurate but Cal did prove that they could beat the national champion. How many seasons can Cal legitimately say that?

The Chenier/Ridgle/Johnson teams were great but in addition to not having the best coach they were very thin, with a weak bench. And of course only the conference champions went to the tournament so they had no chance with UCLA in the league. Even worse off was the Paul Westphal USC team that was ranked 2nd, losing only to UCLA, with nowhere to go. The college basketball landscape back in the 60's particularly was so different than today. There were not that many top-level high school recruits and it seemed like UCLA got most of them.

RedlessWardrobe said:

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The interesting thing about that list is it based solely on results.
Talent wise, the Ridgle,CJ,Chenier,Truitt,Coughran team was probably just as good as any of those listed.

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Word had it that even Bobby Knight commented on that team being one of the most talented he had ever seen. Too bad
Padgett couldn't coach.

https://www.slamonline.com/the-magazine/30-most-influential-mbb-teams/94-cal/

The 1996 team has to be among the most talented teams in Cal history. 5 NBA players and a football hall of Famer.

Shareef, Ed Gray, Tremaine Fowlkes, Yogi and Kiwi.

dan1997 said:

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The 1996 team has to be among the most talented teams in Cal history. 5 NBA players and a football hall of Famer.

Shareef, Ed Gray, Tremaine Fowlkes, Yogi and Kiwi.

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Duck, grigsby, McQueen, jelani were also on that team. Not to mention Kenyon jones (WCC player of the year).