The Role Reversal Game

1,719 Views | 16 Replies | Last: 9 mo ago by RedlessWardrobe
RedlessWardrobe
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So often this year in many of our wins, the script reads Jaylon Tyson ultimately bailing out the team with heroics. Last night, the exact opposite happened.

Just an observation, but almost right from the beginning, Jaylon looked a bit sluggish. Hope there's no injury factor involved. I believe it was three times that Jaylon took that running right side bank shot, a shot that he usually buries, but every time the ball didn't quite reach the right spot on the backboard for the ball to drop. Let's hope that Saturday he's back to normal because we're going to need that.

After the game was over, I reflected on the postings regarding Daws, and had to chuckle a bit. I don't think we've had a player at Cal in a long, long time, that is capable of creating a love/hate relationship with Cal fans. Watching him play, it's like one minute you want to curse him out, and the next minute you want to BearHug him. I don't even think that reaction requires an explanation, I think you all know what I'm talking about. Bottom line, the good stuff outnumbers the bad stuff. We just have to accept it.

Finally, super shout out to Jalen Cone, not just for his heroics on the offensive end, but for the way he made Pope work at the defensive. Yes, Pope scored 23, but Cone really made him work hard to get it. Its dividend occured near the conclusion when Pope ended up traveling. Interesting and effective move by Madsen, I believe the game began with Keonte guarding Pope, but for some reason, MM realized the Cone was making Pope work harder (maybe his small size was causing difficulty for Pope), and stuck with him defending Pope the entire second half.

At this point, one thing is obvious. Any Cal fan with a heart condition should record the game, be informed of the final score, and then watch it.

OdontoBear66
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RedlessWardrobe said:

So often this year in many of our wins, the script reads Jaylon Tyson ultimately bailing out the team with heroics. Last night, the exact opposite happened.

Just an observation, but almost right from the beginning, Jaylon looked a bit sluggish. Hope there's no injury factor involved. I believe it was three times that Jaylon took that running right side bank shot, a shot that he usually buries, but every time the ball didn't quite reach the right spot on the backboard for the ball to drop. Let's hope that Saturday he's back to normal because we're going to need that.

After the game was over, I reflected on the postings regarding Daws, and had to chuckle a bit. I don't think we've had a player at Cal in a long, long time, that is capable of creating a love/hate relationship with Cal fans. Watching him play, it's like one minute you want to curse him out, and the next minute you want to BearHug him. I don't even think that reaction requires an explanation, I think you all know what I'm talking about. Bottom line, the good stuff outnumbers the bad stuff. We just have to accept it.

Finally, super shout out to Jalen Cone, not just for his heroics on the offensive end, but for the way he made Pope work at the defensive. Yes, Pope scored 23, but Cone really made him work hard to get it. Its dividend occured near the conclusion when Pope ended up traveling. Interesting and effective move by Madsen, I believe the game began with Keonte guarding Pope, but for some reason, MM realized the Cone was making Pope work harder (maybe his small size was causing difficulty for Pope), and stuck with him defending Pope the entire second half.

At this point, one thing is obvious. Any Cal fan with a heart condition should record the game, be informed of the final score, and then watch it.


Yes, you are spot on. Without Daws we would be in deep doo-doo. But with him we watch as he misses free throws (not last night), bunnies inside, and mishandlings on offense. At the same time his rebounding is a thing of beauty, his handling the ball bringing it up court is good, his shooting when he gets position in the paint is very good, and his occasional three point shooting not only helps with the points but also keeping defenses off our other shooters.

But I can share that I do not recall a player at Cal who has received so much criticism but is so instrumental in our success. I feel the same emotions you describe. What it boils down to for me is that it is OK to be objective about a player you love. You are not trashing him. You really want him on your team, but you recognize some things that aren't all good. Compare that with my UCLA brother who was defending Mack with me yesterday because he is UCLA. To boot we see this in politics all the time, but we don't need to open this can of worms.

Thank you Aimaq.

oskidunker
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OdontoBear66 said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

So often this year in many of our wins, the script reads Jaylon Tyson ultimately bailing out the team with heroics. Last night, the exact opposite happened.

Just an observation, but almost right from the beginning, Jaylon looked a bit sluggish. Hope there's no injury factor involved. I believe it was three times that Jaylon took that running right side bank shot, a shot that he usually buries, but every time the ball didn't quite reach the right spot on the backboard for the ball to drop. Let's hope that Saturday he's back to normal because we're going to need that.

After the game was over, I reflected on the postings regarding Daws, and had to chuckle a bit. I don't think we've had a player at Cal in a long, long time, that is capable of creating a love/hate relationship with Cal fans. Watching him play, it's like one minute you want to curse him out, and the next minute you want to BearHug him. I don't even think that reaction requires an explanation, I think you all know what I'm talking about. Bottom line, the good stuff outnumbers the bad stuff. We just have to accept it.

Finally, super shout out to Jalen Cone, not just for his heroics on the offensive end, but for the way he made Pope work at the defensive. Yes, Pope scored 23, but Cone really made him work hard to get it. Its dividend occured near the conclusion when Pope ended up traveling. Interesting and effective move by Madsen, I believe the game began with Keonte guarding Pope, but for some reason, MM realized the Cone was making Pope work harder (maybe his small size was causing difficulty for Pope), and stuck with him defending Pope the entire second half.

At this point, one thing is obvious. Any Cal fan with a heart condition should record the game, be informed of the final score, and then watch it.


Yes, you are spot on. Without Daws we would be in deep doo-doo. But with him we watch as he misses free throws (not last night), bunnies inside, and mishandlings on offense. At the same time his rebounding is a thing of beauty, his handling the ball bringing it up court is good, his shooting when he gets position in the paint is very good, and his occasional three point shooting not only helps with the points but also keeping defenses off our other shooters.

But I can share that I do not recall a player at Cal who has received so much criticism but is so instrumental in our success. I feel the same emotions you describe. What it boils down to for me is that it is OK to be objective about a player you love. You are not trashing him. You really want him on your team, but you recognize some things that aren't all good. Compare that with my UCLA brother who was defending Mack with me yesterday because he is UCLA. To boot we see this in politics all the time, but we don't need to open this can of worms.

Thank you Aimaq.




Tyson looked sick. I was hoping someone would ask Madsen but maybe they were told not to do that.the slashto the basket Celestine used against usc has not worked since. He usually only uses that when Tyson isbout
Go Bears!
ducky23
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The oSU defense was entirely focused on JT. Which explains his down game and the 16 threes.

He put up a couple forced shots, but generally did a good job kicking out.

Moving forward I expect to see a lot more defenses like this. Especially teams basically doubling JT after the aimaq PnR and basically leaving aimaq wide open
HoopDreams
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RedlessWardrobe said:

After the game was over, I reflected on the postings regarding Daws, and had to chuckle a bit. I don't think we've had a player at Cal in a long, long time, that is capable of creating a love/hate relationship with Cal fans. Watching him play, it's like one minute you want to curse him out, and the next minute you want to BearHug him. I don't even think that reaction requires an explanation, I think you all know what I'm talking about. Bottom line, the good stuff outnumbers the bad stuff. We just have to accept it.
Really don't want to beat a second horse to death, but you baited me!

I don't see where any of the "hate" comes from. Let's look at the line:

36 minutes (for such a big man that takes a commitment to his workouts and a ton of heart)

TWENTY ONE POINTS on 50% shooting, including 2 of 3 from three, and 11 of 14 FTs (79%)

11 rebounds for his 18th double-double the most by a Bear in the Pac-12 Conference era

FIVE assists, ZERO turnovers, 1 foul

What in this game was there to hate???

RedlessWardrobe
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I admit you might be on this one. I guess a couple of missed free throws started it. There was one play with about 5 minutes left in the first half when Daws got in the way of a cross court pass which led to a turnover.

Also a couple of slow reacting defensive plays early. But honestly, you're very close to right about last night. I guess my comments pertain more to watching him the entire season. And because I know you're a fan like me, I'm sure that to a degree you know where I'm coming from. I'm glad we have Daws. Best center we've had in quite a while. And while his games have more peaks than valleys, there are definitely some valleys. Maybe its more frustrating to watch them because of the fact that his strenghts are so solid.

All season my take on Daws has been that he is who he is. And there definitely is way more good than bad.
ducky23
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HoopDreams said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

After the game was over, I reflected on the postings regarding Daws, and had to chuckle a bit. I don't think we've had a player at Cal in a long, long time, that is capable of creating a love/hate relationship with Cal fans. Watching him play, it's like one minute you want to curse him out, and the next minute you want to BearHug him. I don't even think that reaction requires an explanation, I think you all know what I'm talking about. Bottom line, the good stuff outnumbers the bad stuff. We just have to accept it.
Really don't want to beat a second horse to death, but you baited me!

I don't see where any of the "hate" comes from. Let's look at the line:

36 minutes (for such a big man that takes a commitment to his workouts and a ton of heart)

TWENTY ONE POINTS on 50% shooting, including 2 of 3 from three, and 11 of 14 FTs (79%)

11 rebounds for his 18th double-double the most by a Bear in the Pac-12 Conference era

FIVE assists, ZERO turnovers, 1 foul

What in this game was there to hate???


I think the main reason Aimaq is so controversial is that his numbers don't tell the full story about him.

Teams often tailor their entire gameplan on attacking Aimaq on both the offensive and defensive ends. For example, against OSU, JT was essentially being double teamed the entire game because Aimaq's defender was completely leaving him to make sure JT couldn't drive to the bucket. Credit to Aimaq for making enough plays to make that strategy backfire...but I think its also fair to say that a lot of Aimaq's points came because of all the attention being put on JT.

On the defensive end, fortunately, OSU didn't have the personnel to target Aimaq, but we have seen throughout the season teams attacking Aimaq on PnR's or forcing him to try to defend out on the perimeter. Targeting Aimaq is typically the main cause for most of our defensive breakdowns.

I want to be clear. I don't think Aimaq is a bad player. He's clearly our best option at the 5 position. He's generally a plus player. I'm generally happy to have him on the court. But I think the problem is that his fans only look at the numbers, which in my view, don't paint a completely full picture of his effectiveness as a player.

In my opinion, he's not quite as good as some people here make him out to be, but he's clearly not as bad as some of his detractors believe. He's probably somewhere in the middle. A good college center, but not great. And there's absolutely no fault in that.
bearister
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Most of the criticism of Daws is spot on. I just find the criticism humorous in the context of the prior 6 years of our program as well as how he ranks in the history of Cal centers. There is literally just a handful of more impactful centers in the history of Cal hoop and I forget if there is even one (Brian Hendrick?) since I started buying season tickets in 1987.

Hartmut Ortmann PTS 3.7 TRB 3.0

Brian Hendrick PTS 14.7 TRB 8.5

Ryan Jameson PTS 4.5 TRB 3.5

Kenyon Jones PTS 7.9 TRB 8.5

Francisco Elson PTS 5.5 TRB 5

Solomon Hughes PTS 6.1 TRB 3.5

Nick Vander Laan PTS 6.7 TRB 5.5

Rod Benson PTS 6.4 TRB 3.4

DeVon Hardin PTS 7.4. TRB 6.4

Jordan Wilks PTS 3.1 TRB 2.3

Markhuri Sanders- PTS 7.0. TRB 5.2
Frison

Robert Thurman PTS 3.8 TRB 2.5

Kameron Rooks PTS 3.5 TRB 2.2

Kingsley Okoroh PTS 3.5. TRB 3.8

Connor Vanover PTS 7.6 TRB 4.3

Andre Kelly PTS 9 TRB 6

Lars Thieman PTS 5.3 TRB 3.6

Fardaws Aimaq
Cal stats to date: PTS 15 TRB 11



* NCAA season rebounds leader (2021)
WAC Player of the Year (2021)

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HoopDreams
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bearister said:

Most of the criticism of Daws is spot on. I just find the criticism humorous in the context of the prior 6 years of our program as well as how he ranks in the history of Cal centers. There is literally just a handful of more impactful centers in the history of Cal hoop and I forget if there is even one (Brian Hendrick?) since I started buying season tickets in 1987.

Hartmut Ortmann PTS 3.7 TRB 3.0

Brian Hendrick PTS 14.7 TRB 8.5

Ryan Jameson PTS 4.5 TRB 3.5

Kenyon Jones PTS 7.9 TRB 8.5

Francisco Elson PTS 5.5 TRB 5

Solomon Hughes PTS 6.1 TRB 3.5

Nick Vander Laan PTS 6.7 TRB 5.5

Rod Benson PTS 6.4 TRB 3.4

DeVon Hardin PTS 7.4. TRB 6.4

Jordan Wilks PTS 3.1 TRB 2.3

Markhuri Sanders- PTS 7.0. TRB 5.2
Frison

Robert Thurman PTS 3.8 TRB 2.5

Kameron Rooks PTS 3.5 TRB 2.2

Kingsley Okoroh PTS 3.5. TRB 3.8

Connor Vanover PTS 7.6 TRB 4.3

Andre Kelly PTS 9 TRB 6

Lars Thieman PTS 5.3 TRB 3.6

Fardaws Aimaq
Cal stats to date: PTS 15 TRB 11

* NCAA season rebounds leader (2021)
WAC Player of the Year (2021)

Good post. Exactly.

Agree that Daws has weaknesses. Tyson has weaknesses, Cone has weaknesses. Kennedy has weaknesses, Jason Kidd had weaknesses at Cal, Jaylen Brown had weaknesses.

I think Ivan Rabb had more talent (although was a PF), but he wasn't nearly as productive.

And certainly the last 30 years of Cal centers had weaknesses.

What I don't get is how after a big win and a big game from Daws that people complain about his weaknesses, or that they compare him to former NBA Hall of Fame players as evidence of his weaknesses





RedlessWardrobe
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When I started this thread, I for one did not "complain" about Daws' weaknesses. I only implied that they existed, which is quite a different thing. I think there's been a lot of others who also are just acknowledging his weaknesses, and his strongest supporters have overreacted to it a bit.
bearister
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Fresh in from The Best Defense is a Good Offense Department:

"….his strongest supporters have overreacted to it a bit."
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sluggo
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RedlessWardrobe said:

When I started this thread, I for one did not "complain" about Daws' weaknesses. I only implied that they existed, which is quite a different thing. I think there's been a lot of others who also are just acknowledging his weaknesses, and his strongest supporters have overreacted to it a bit.
I might be considered a detractor. But I thought he was great. He kept the team in the game in the first half before Cone and then Celestine got hot. And I think he can be a very good player against certain teams. OSU, with their weak bigs, is one such team.

Again, it is not whether he is good or bad or somewhere between, it is what is the best strategy Cal can utilize in games this year with the players they have. I differ somewhat from Madsen on what that strategy would be against the top teams. And while Madsen knows more than I will ever know about basketball, I think strategy is accessible to close followers of the game.

Cal did go to my favored (against top teams) lineup of Newell at the 5 with about eight minutes left. The defense looked more dynamic, but they did not cash in on offense with Tyson missing. And the experiment ended after a minute or two. I would like to see more Newell at 5 against Oregon.
Basketball Bear
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HoopDreams said:

bearister said:

Most of the criticism of Daws is spot on. I just find the criticism humorous in the context of the prior 6 years of our program as well as how he ranks in the history of Cal centers. There is literally just a handful of more impactful centers in the history of Cal hoop and I forget if there is even one (Brian Hendrick?) since I started buying season tickets in 1987.

Hartmut Ortmann PTS 3.7 TRB 3.0

Brian Hendrick PTS 14.7 TRB 8.5

Ryan Jameson PTS 4.5 TRB 3.5

Kenyon Jones PTS 7.9 TRB 8.5

Francisco Elson PTS 5.5 TRB 5

Solomon Hughes PTS 6.1 TRB 3.5

Nick Vander Laan PTS 6.7 TRB 5.5

Rod Benson PTS 6.4 TRB 3.4

DeVon Hardin PTS 7.4. TRB 6.4

Jordan Wilks PTS 3.1 TRB 2.3

Markhuri Sanders- PTS 7.0. TRB 5.2
Frison

Robert Thurman PTS 3.8 TRB 2.5

Kameron Rooks PTS 3.5 TRB 2.2

Kingsley Okoroh PTS 3.5. TRB 3.8

Connor Vanover PTS 7.6 TRB 4.3

Andre Kelly PTS 9 TRB 6

Lars Thieman PTS 5.3 TRB 3.6

Fardaws Aimaq
Cal stats to date: PTS 15 TRB 11

* NCAA season rebounds leader (2021)
WAC Player of the Year (2021)

Good post. Exactly.

Agree that Daws has weaknesses. Tyson has weaknesses, Cone has weaknesses. Kennedy has weaknesses, Jason Kidd had weaknesses at Cal, Jaylen Brown had weaknesses.

I think Ivan Rabb had more talent (although was a PF), but he wasn't nearly as productive.

And certainly the last 30 years of Cal centers had weaknesses.

What I don't get is how after a big win and a big game from Daws that people complain about his weaknesses, or that they compare him to former NBA Hall of Fame players as evidence of his weaknesses
I began following CAL basketball during the Brian Hendrick era and I thought he has been our best center and was a true warrior. He got injured a few times but when he was in the game he was one of the best centers out there. I put Aimaq up there with him. I love watching him play and if he is under the offensive glass and gets the rebound it is almost automatic 2 points. He leads the league in rebounds at 11.2 and scores 14.9 pts a game, come on. Yes he has weaknesses but he is a big plus in my eyes and is one of the best I have seen since watching CAL basketball.
AZ Ballo is at 9.9 and scores 13.2

bearister
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….and the thing that made every Cal vs Arizona game worth the price of admission: Brian Hendrick and Wildcat Wayne Womack hated each other with an undying passion. They brought the ruckus every time they met.

" Arizona played the final part of the game without forward Wayne Womack. With 5:33 left in the game, Cal's Brian Hendrick and Womack began throwing elbows under the basket. A fight broke out but the players were quickly separated. Womack then began fighting with Cal guard Ryan Drew."

COLLEGE BASKETBALL / PACIFIC 10 ROUNDUP : Cal Fights Its Way to Upset of No. 5 Arizona, 85-78 - Los Angeles Times


https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-01-27-sp-473-story.html
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drizzlybear
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Basketball Bear said:

HoopDreams said:

bearister said:

Most of the criticism of Daws is spot on. I just find the criticism humorous in the context of the prior 6 years of our program as well as how he ranks in the history of Cal centers. There is literally just a handful of more impactful centers in the history of Cal hoop and I forget if there is even one (Brian Hendrick?) since I started buying season tickets in 1987.

Hartmut Ortmann PTS 3.7 TRB 3.0

Brian Hendrick PTS 14.7 TRB 8.5

Ryan Jameson PTS 4.5 TRB 3.5

Kenyon Jones PTS 7.9 TRB 8.5

Francisco Elson PTS 5.5 TRB 5

Solomon Hughes PTS 6.1 TRB 3.5

Nick Vander Laan PTS 6.7 TRB 5.5

Rod Benson PTS 6.4 TRB 3.4

DeVon Hardin PTS 7.4. TRB 6.4

Jordan Wilks PTS 3.1 TRB 2.3

Markhuri Sanders- PTS 7.0. TRB 5.2
Frison

Robert Thurman PTS 3.8 TRB 2.5

Kameron Rooks PTS 3.5 TRB 2.2

Kingsley Okoroh PTS 3.5. TRB 3.8

Connor Vanover PTS 7.6 TRB 4.3

Andre Kelly PTS 9 TRB 6

Lars Thieman PTS 5.3 TRB 3.6

Fardaws Aimaq
Cal stats to date: PTS 15 TRB 11

* NCAA season rebounds leader (2021)
WAC Player of the Year (2021)

Good post. Exactly.

Agree that Daws has weaknesses. Tyson has weaknesses, Cone has weaknesses. Kennedy has weaknesses, Jason Kidd had weaknesses at Cal, Jaylen Brown had weaknesses.

I think Ivan Rabb had more talent (although was a PF), but he wasn't nearly as productive.

And certainly the last 30 years of Cal centers had weaknesses.

What I don't get is how after a big win and a big game from Daws that people complain about his weaknesses, or that they compare him to former NBA Hall of Fame players as evidence of his weaknesses
I began following CAL basketball during the Brian Hendrick era and I thought he has been our best center and was a true warrior. He got injured a few times but when he was in the game he was one of the best centers out there. I put Aimaq up there with him. I love watching him play and if he is under the offensive glass and gets the rebound it is almost automatic 2 points. He leads the league in rebounds at 11.2 and scores 14.9 pts a game, come on. Yes he has weaknesses but he is a big plus in my eyes and is one of the best I have seen since watching CAL basketball.
AZ Ballo is at 9.9 and scores 13.2



I arrived at Cal in the '87-'88 season. Brian Hendrick is one of my all-time favorite Bears.
drizzlybear
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sluggo said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

When I started this thread, I for one did not "complain" about Daws' weaknesses. I only implied that they existed, which is quite a different thing. I think there's been a lot of others who also are just acknowledging his weaknesses, and his strongest supporters have overreacted to it a bit.
I might be considered a detractor. But I thought he was great. He kept the team in the game in the first half before Cone and then Celestine got hot. And I think he can be a very good player against certain teams. OSU, with their weak bigs, is one such team.

Again, it is not whether he is good or bad or somewhere between, it is what is the best strategy Cal can utilize in games this year with the players they have. I differ somewhat from Madsen on what that strategy would be against the top teams. And while Madsen knows more than I will ever know about basketball, I think strategy is accessible to close followers of the game.

Cal did go to my favored (against top teams) lineup of Newell at the 5 with about eight minutes left. The defense looked more dynamic, but they did not cash in on offense with Tyson missing. And the experiment ended after a minute or two. I would like to see more Newell at 5 against Oregon.


I might be the biggest supporter of Newell on this board, but N'Faly Dante would destroy Newell. There's no way Newell can guard Dante straight up.
RedlessWardrobe
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No need to apologize. Grant has been really really good lately, no doubt about it. Simply put, he's just not a center, both from a size standpoint and his style of play. I like the idea that MM is currently going small in certain situations, but its not something that will be permanent for more than a few minutes per game.
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