Coaching Carousel - Madsen's Future

9,819 Views | 94 Replies | Last: 8 mo ago by CalLifer
bearister
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RedlessWardrobe said:

HYPOTHETICAL: If Furd was to get Madsen would there be any scenario on earth where Cal would pursue Haase?

Based on the history and trajectory of Cal's basketball program the 6 years before Madsen's hire, is there any scenario where Cal doesn't hire Haase and ink him to a 10 year contract?

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RedlessWardrobe
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bearister - could you be more specific with your answer?
Alkiadt
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RedlessWardrobe said:

HearstMining said:

Big C said:


The Stanford job is kind of interesting right now, in terms of being able to build a winner:

- On one hand, they don't seem to have many fans, they haven't embraced NIL and they're not keen on transfers

+ On the other hand, they have brought in some pretty impressive high school classes, especially taking Haase into account

Okay, please don't shoot me - this is HYPOTHETICAL: If Furd was to get Madsen would there be any scenario on earth where Cal would pursue Haase? I only say this because its often pointed out here that Haase has done a fairly good job recruiting.

Again I'm only putting this out there to get some opinions. I don't think I would be a proponent of it. If the idea of this happening is so disturbing please let me know and I promise I'll never to bring it up again!

No way. He has totally underperformed. He needs to take an assistant coaching position someplace where a head coach he's familiar with wants him. I don't see that happening under Madsen either. Madsen's staff is only in its first year together. I'm unaware of any unhappiness or dysfunction on Madsen's staff (like there was with Spavital on the football staff…), so I don't see any staff changes in the off season unless someone gets hired away or doesn't like the Bay Area housing costs.

Don't bring it up again.
Civil Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

HearstMining said:

Big C said:


The Stanford job is kind of interesting right now, in terms of being able to build a winner:

- On one hand, they don't seem to have many fans, they haven't embraced NIL and they're not keen on transfers

+ On the other hand, they have brought in some pretty impressive high school classes, especially taking Haase into account

Okay, please don't shoot me - this is HYPOTHETICAL: If Furd was to get Madsen would there be any scenario on earth where Cal would pursue Haase? I only say this because its often pointed out here that Haase has done a fairly good job recruiting.

Again I'm only putting this out there to get some opinions. I don't think I would be a proponent of it. If the idea of this happening is so disturbing please let me know and I promise I'll never to bring it up again!
You don't think you would be a proponent of it? Ain't gonna take that bait. No way.
bearister
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RedlessWardrobe said:

bearister - could you be more specific with your answer?

No, I took a lot of drugs during my tour of duty at Cal (which we called Berkeley because we liked the dirty hippie commie vibe that tormented our Greatest Generation parents).
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RedlessWardrobe
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Okay guys, I will make myself clear. I would be against it. And my hypothetical was based on Madsen being gone, not an assistant coach opening. I just wouldn't put it past our AD to do think about it, after all we spent 6 years with Wyking and Fox, and that was their doing.

I will not bring it up again. Beat Furd Thursday!
Big C
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I know you're not bringing it up again, but...

- no NCAA tourneys in his seven(?) years on the Farm
- best players tend to leave the program at their earliest opportunity
- .500 record (actually slightly under, IIRC) in six years against Cal teams coached by Wyking Jones and Mark Fox

It would be a foxian hire. I will say this: Besides being very happy with Madsen, another reason I'd hate it if we had to go through this process again so soon is that I got thoroughly sick and tired of the month-long vetting of Randy Bennett and Joe Pasternack.
RedlessWardrobe
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Beat Furd Thursday! Keep Madsen for several years!
concernedparent
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Big C said:



It would be a foxian hire.
Man it's worse than Fox. Fox was once a decent coach (at Nevada) and did better at Georgia than Haase did at Stanford.
calumnus
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concernedparent said:

Big C said:



It would be a foxian hire.
Man it's worse than Fox. Fox was once a decent coach (at Nevada) and did better at Georgia than Haase did at Stanford.


Haase's record is very comparable to Fox's. At least he turned around UAB, winning the conference tournament and the regular season championship in his third and 4th year, whereas Fox's success at Nevada was based on the players and foundation left to him by Trent Johnson.

And Fox's Georgia teams, zero NCAA wins (in two appearances) is very comparable to Haase's zero wins in zero appearances in 8 years at Stanford. Both are bad coaches. Haase is a FAR better recruiter. Fox developed a reputation at Georgia as a jerk/someone you don't want to play for and was a bad recruiter despite the efforts of Georgia boosters/bagmen to prop him up, the best recruiting territory in the SEC and zero admission standards (unlike Stanford).

Haase would be a horrible hire, but Fox was the worst ever as he proved by going 3-29 in his 4th year after driving off the meager talent he inherited. With Haase, like Fox, we also would never top .500, but it would never be as bad as it got with Fox.
philbert
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Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?
calumnus
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philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.
concernedparent
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calumnus said:

concernedparent said:

Big C said:



It would be a foxian hire.
Man it's worse than Fox. Fox was once a decent coach (at Nevada) and did better at Georgia than Haase did at Stanford.

Haase would be a horrible hire, but Fox was the worst ever as he proved by going 3-29 in his 4th year after driving off the meager talent he inherited. With Haase, like Fox, we also would never top .500, but it would never be as bad as it got with Fox.

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody was happy about the Fox hire but we thought it meant going 15-18 most years and occasionally making the NIT.

I don't want to litigate the resumes of two terrible coaches in depth but most would say Fox's resume was stronger (Fox pre-Cal, Haase to date). Let's put it this way, 5+3 (NCAA+NIT) is greater than 1+2, and 60% conference win percentage is better than 52%. We can certainly agree that as a fit for the modern game, Fox has an exceptionally bad personality and character.
philbert
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calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.
As has been stated multiple times, the best thing us fans can do is donate to NIL. That will help MM bring in the players he needs to win. Alma mater or not, NIL and the transfer portal are Cal's big advantages over Furd. In the end, [f you get into coaching you want to win. If we give him what he needs to win, I don't think it will matter.
bearister
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Do you think if the University offered an NFT with an audio file related to Starkey calling The Play could seed some healthy NIL bucks.
A guy on the football board might pay $40k+ for such a NFT.
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bluehenbear
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If madsen leaves after 1 year, I would assume furd would pay a significant buyout which we could use to get someone of similar or better caliber?
Alkiadt
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bluehenbear said:

If madsen leaves after 1 year, I would assume furd would pay a significant buyout which we could use to get someone of similar or better caliber?

Supposedly $4 million.
Posted by someone on another thread.
Big C
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Alkiadt said:

bluehenbear said:

If madsen leaves after 1 year, I would assume furd would pay a significant buyout which we could use to get someone of similar or better caliber?

Supposedly $4 million.
Posted by someone on another thread.

And approximately half of that would be eaten up by what we will be paying Fox for the last year on his contract (though the two parties may have agreed on a cash settlement).

As frustrated as I would be if Madsen left -- and I don't think he will -- at least we are somewhat out of the squalor that we were mired in a year ago.
calumnus
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concernedparent said:

calumnus said:

concernedparent said:

Big C said:



It would be a foxian hire.
Man it's worse than Fox. Fox was once a decent coach (at Nevada) and did better at Georgia than Haase did at Stanford.

Haase would be a horrible hire, but Fox was the worst ever as he proved by going 3-29 in his 4th year after driving off the meager talent he inherited. With Haase, like Fox, we also would never top .500, but it would never be as bad as it got with Fox.

Hindsight is 20/20. Nobody was happy about the Fox hire but we thought it meant going 15-18 most years and occasionally making the NIT.

I don't want to litigate the resumes of two terrible coaches in depth but most would say Fox's resume was stronger (Fox pre-Cal, Haase to date). Let's put it this way, 5+3 (NCAA+NIT) is greater than 1+2, and 60% conference win percentage is better than 52%. We can certainly agree that as a fit for the modern game, Fox has an exceptionally bad personality and character.

Sure many argued that and if you only look at W/L record and do zero analysis or have no idea about his personality….

Because it that last part, his personality, that absent the benefit of Georgia admissions, Georgia boosters and SEC vs PAC-12 refs, meant that he would not be able to replicate his old-school authoritarian defense-first Georgia .500 mediocrity at Cal. The portal era only amplified it. Horrible hire.

When he was hired many of us us said exactly that and were attacked for "slandering a good man." His first speech to the team it was abundantly obvious.

Horrible hire. It is the same Army hockey alum Knowlton that defended McKeever's abusive behavior as "tough coach that one day you will appreciate" that thought Mark Fox was a good idea especially in Berkeley, in the 21st century and the portal era.

However, just like Fox was Knowlton's "solution" to the deficiencies of Jones, Madsen was him trying to correct for the deficiencies of Fox and hit closer to the mark. Madsen is a good coach and his personality and coaching style is a great fit for Berkeley. I don't think Knowlton considered the fact that Madsen is a Stanford Hall of Famer and is very loyal to Stanford and to his friends there. We will see. As I've said, I think it comes down to his what he thinks is best for his family. If he doesn't go to Stanford now, I think he stays at Cal a long time.

dimitrig
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calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.

calumnus
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dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.




Lol. We should not (though that would be so typiCal). However, a good AD stays in contact with his new coach, understands his thinking. Knowing he may get an offer from Stanford, consider what you might counter. And definitely start doing your research on who you might go after if you need to replace him. Personally, I would not get into a major bidding war with Stanford. I would be willing to match Stanford but not try to outbid them to buy his loyalty. More importantly I would have conversations with Madsen about where he really wants to be and if it is Cal, ask what he needs in additional support.
6956bear
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calumnus said:

dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.




Lol. We should not (though that would be so typiCal). However, a good AD stays in contact with his new coach, understands his thinking. Knowing he may get an offer from Stanford, consider what you might counter. And definitely start doing your research on who you might go after if you need to replace him. Personally, I would not get into a major bidding war with Stanford. I would be willing to match Stanford but not try to outbid them to buy his loyalty. More importantly I would have conversations with Madsen about where he really wants to be and if it is Cal, ask what he needs in additional support.


Discussions regarding support should be ongoing. It should not occur simply because your HC may have an interest in a different program. Even if that program is his alma mater where he is revered.

I have no idea whether Madsen and Knowlton have these discussions but would not surprise me if they are infrequent at best.

Madsen may have more leverage while holding an offer from Stanford though to get what is needed. JMO but a robust NIL warchest may be the best thing for keeping him at Cal.

But additional support is needed. Hopefully when the next Chancellor gets hired the revenue sports get more support.
calumnus
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6956bear said:

calumnus said:

dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.




Lol. We should not (though that would be so typiCal). However, a good AD stays in contact with his new coach, understands his thinking. Knowing he may get an offer from Stanford, consider what you might counter. And definitely start doing your research on who you might go after if you need to replace him. Personally, I would not get into a major bidding war with Stanford. I would be willing to match Stanford but not try to outbid them to buy his loyalty. More importantly I would have conversations with Madsen about where he really wants to be and if it is Cal, ask what he needs in additional support.


Discussions regarding support should be ongoing. It should not occur simply because your HC may have an interest in a different program. Even if that program is his alma mater where he is revered.

I have no idea whether Madsen and Knowlton have these discussions but would not surprise me if they are infrequent at best.

Madsen may have more leverage while holding an offer from Stanford though to get what is needed. JMO but a robust NIL warchest may be the best thing for keeping him at Cal.

But additional support is needed. Hopefully when the next Chancellor gets hired the revenue sports get more support.


Agreed. And the discussion of "where do you see yourself in 10 years" and "what if the Stanford job opened up" should have been part of the initial interview and/or be an easy conversation over lunch. Of course, it helps if the AD doesn't live out of state and isn't horrible at doing his job.
Big C
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calumnus said:

6956bear said:

calumnus said:

dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.




Lol. We should not (though that would be so typiCal). However, a good AD stays in contact with his new coach, understands his thinking. Knowing he may get an offer from Stanford, consider what you might counter. And definitely start doing your research on who you might go after if you need to replace him. Personally, I would not get into a major bidding war with Stanford. I would be willing to match Stanford but not try to outbid them to buy his loyalty. More importantly I would have conversations with Madsen about where he really wants to be and if it is Cal, ask what he needs in additional support.


Discussions regarding support should be ongoing. It should not occur simply because your HC may have an interest in a different program. Even if that program is his alma mater where he is revered.

I have no idea whether Madsen and Knowlton have these discussions but would not surprise me if they are infrequent at best.

Madsen may have more leverage while holding an offer from Stanford though to get what is needed. JMO but a robust NIL warchest may be the best thing for keeping him at Cal.

But additional support is needed. Hopefully when the next Chancellor gets hired the revenue sports get more support.


Agreed. And the discussion of "where do you see yourself in 10 years" and "what if the Stanford job opened up" should have been part of the initial interview and/or be an easy conversation over lunch. Of course, it helps if the AD doesn't live out of state and isn't horrible at doing his job.

That would be "funny" if Knowlton never even considered that Madsen might jump to Stanfurd at the first opportunity... because I think, like, everybody here was wondering about that. Of course, look at the Wilcox contract situation... it boggles the mind.

How to support any coach we want to keep (doesn't matter who):
+ competitive salary
+ competitive salary for their staff
+ competitive NIL program
+ competitive facilities
+ competitive recruiting budget, training table, medical, player housing, etc
+ when they have a request, don't let it get lost in the Cal bureaucracy, take care of it

I keep mentioning "competitive"... we're probably never going to be at the top of a major conference in these funding areas, but we can't be below average in too many of them (if any), because most any good coach is going to find another place to be that has less barriers to success. Beyond that, some coaches might like being at Cal more than others; so be it.
CalLifer
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calumnus said:

6956bear said:

calumnus said:

dimitrig said:

calumnus said:

philbert said:

Do we really need to be suggesting that Haase would even be a candidate to replace a coach that there is little to no evidence is even thinking about leaving?


Agree that any suggestion of Haase at Cal is idiotic, but it is just sticking your head in the sand to ignore the fact that there is a high probability: 1) Haase will get fired, 2) Madsen will be Stanford's top target, and 3) It will be hard for Madsen to ignore his alma mater.

When future events are very predictable and highly probable you should prepare for them. The Knowlton era is littered with cases of Cal ignoring all the warning signs, getting "blindsided" and paying the price. Waiting for "evidence" Madsen is "thinking of leaving" will probably once again be too late.

We should give Madsen a ridiculous 10 year extension with a massive buyout.




Lol. We should not (though that would be so typiCal). However, a good AD stays in contact with his new coach, understands his thinking. Knowing he may get an offer from Stanford, consider what you might counter. And definitely start doing your research on who you might go after if you need to replace him. Personally, I would not get into a major bidding war with Stanford. I would be willing to match Stanford but not try to outbid them to buy his loyalty. More importantly I would have conversations with Madsen about where he really wants to be and if it is Cal, ask what he needs in additional support.


Discussions regarding support should be ongoing. It should not occur simply because your HC may have an interest in a different program. Even if that program is his alma mater where he is revered.

I have no idea whether Madsen and Knowlton have these discussions but would not surprise me if they are infrequent at best.

Madsen may have more leverage while holding an offer from Stanford though to get what is needed. JMO but a robust NIL warchest may be the best thing for keeping him at Cal.

But additional support is needed. Hopefully when the next Chancellor gets hired the revenue sports get more support.


Agreed. And the discussion of "where do you see yourself in 10 years" and "what if the Stanford job opened up" should have been part of the initial interview and/or be an easy conversation over lunch. Of course, it helps if the AD doesn't live out of state and isn't horrible at doing his job.
The depths of how bad Knowlton is at being an AD reminds me of the discussions of Fox last year. Knowlton, like Fox, has so many "accomplishments", a single one of which would lead to his firing at any other P5 school, and somehow Cal has managed to continue to employ him (and extend him, again like Fox). Again, it just completely boggles the mind.
 
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