Exactly SFCB. In most cases same goes for blocked shots.

SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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Agreed, but it's hard to quantify defense than by pointing to steals.

Of course, there's comparing the points the defender's man scores when he's being guarded by the defender versus his average. That requires a greater body of data than can be gleaned quickly from a single game.

Another quantitative metric could be turnovers by the offensive player when guarded by the defender, but that really only has value when compared to the number of turnovers the offensive player has in other games (or when or when not guarded by the defender). That, again, leads to the same issue of needing more data than can be gleaned in one game.

I think this may be why so many basketball players are so offensive minded, now: there are very few quantitative metrics for evaluating a player's defensive skills that really solely on the data available from one game. Contrast that with how points a player scores, which is much can be limited to just one game's data.

Welcome Jeff!

GMP said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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These are all good points, however I read a lot of NBA writers who have shown that steals in college correlate very strongly with being a good defender in the NBA. For every steal, there's a near steal. For every near steal, there is usually a lot of good defense being played to get you in position to make those plays.

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The bizarre thing about a player's defensive ability is that this is one aspect of the game in which usually the eye test is a much better way to evaluate than any kind of stat. Even the + - stat can be deceiving because that can be influenced by the rest of the team. It's interesting that all of these highlight clips that you see on these players are almost exclusively limited to offense. We'll be able to evaluate Jeff's defense more accurately after we watch him play a few games.

SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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I mean, in his one season at Tulane ('22-'23), they played [then] 15th ranked Houston twice, in addition to Wichita St., Memphis, SMU, Florida St., Cincinnati, and South Florida, multiple times each. Not exactly dogmeat. And he averaged double figures against that particular D1 schedule.

Pittstop said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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I mean, in his one season at Tulane ('22-'23), they played [then] 15th ranked Houston twice, in addition to Wichita St., Memphis, SMU, Florida St., Cincinnati, and South Florida, multiple times each. Not exactly dogmatic. And he averaged double figures against that particular D1 schedule.

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Tulane shows Nwankwo on the football roster for 2021 signing day but not on any of their basketball rosters.
https://tulanegreenwave.com/sports/football/roster/jeff-nwankwo/7293

He played 2 seasons of basketball at Cowley College (JC) in Kansas.
https://cowleytigers.com/sports/mbkb/2023-24/bios/nwankwo_jeff_rqdz

01Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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Agreed, but it's hard to quantify defense than by pointing to steals.

Of course, there's comparing the points the defender's man scores when he's being guarded by the defender versus his average. That requires a greater body of data than can be gleaned quickly from a single game.

Another quantitative metric could be turnovers by the offensive player when guarded by the defender, but that really only has value when compared to the number of turnovers the offensive player has in other games (or when or when not guarded by the defender). That, again, leads to the same issue of needing more data than can be gleaned in one game.

I think this may be why so many basketball players are so offensive minded, now: there are very few quantitative metrics for evaluating a player's defensive skills that really solely on the data available from one game. Contrast that with how points a player scores, which is much can be limited to just one game's data.

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Then why try to quantify defense with statistics or metrics? I doubt that coaches use those when looking for a good defender prospect.

One reason why players are more offensive minded now is that the modern rules greatly favor the offensive player.

And most players have always been offensive minded, because there is much
more glory in becoming a great offensive player. If you can score, you will get playing time.

Pete Maravich was more idolized than KC Jones, but KC led Boston teams to NBA Championship Rings.

Steph Curry and Lebron are idolized today, but not Jaren jackson, Rudy Gobert, or Jrue Holiday.

Offense sells tickets, Defense not as many.

SFCityBear said:

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01Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

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Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

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Agreed, but it's hard to quantify defense than by pointing to steals.

Of course, there's comparing the points the defender's man scores when he's being guarded by the defender versus his average. That requires a greater body of data than can be gleaned quickly from a single game.

Another quantitative metric could be turnovers by the offensive player when guarded by the defender, but that really only has value when compared to the number of turnovers the offensive player has in other games (or when or when not guarded by the defender). That, again, leads to the same issue of needing more data than can be gleaned in one game.

I think this may be why so many basketball players are so offensive minded, now: there are very few quantitative metrics for evaluating a player's defensive skills that really solely on the data available from one game. Contrast that with how points a player scores, which is much can be limited to just one game's data.

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Then why try to quantify defense with statistics or metrics? I doubt that coaches use those when looking for a good defender prospect.

One reason why players are more offensive minded now is that the modern rules greatly favor the offensive player.

And most players have always been offensive minded, because there is much
more glory in becoming a great offensive player. If you can score, you will get playing time.

Pete Maravich was more idolized than KC Jones, but KC led Boston teams to NBA Championship Rings.

Steph Curry and Lebron are idolized today, but not Jaren jackson, Rudy Gobert, or Jrue Holiday.

Offense sells tickets, Defense not as many.

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Agreed 100% (though I'm too young to have watched the Pistol and KC Jones play, so I'll take your word for it).

I'm a bit of a throwback, I like watching good big man play and I love good hard-nosed defense. On the offensive end, I'm more about the assist than I am about the bucket and I much prefer to see good ball movement (and off-ball movement) over isolation plays.

Basketball should be jazz on the hardwood, there's a beautiful rhythm to it when played right. But too often in today's game, it's about nonstop solos while everyone else stands around. That's not beautiful; instead it's just so much uninteresting noise.

SFCityBear said:

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01Bear said:

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SFCityBear said:

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Johnfox said:

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Jeff Nwankwo is a great defender too. Averaged 2 steals per game this past year.

---

Again, he has not played against major D1 talent, so we'll see. 2 steals is nice, but does not make a great defender. A good defender who starts usually plays 30-40 minutes and roughly half of that time is playing defense. 2 steals only takes a up a few seconds. What he does the rest of the 15-20 minutes playing defense is how I would evaluate a defender. The best Cal defenders aside from the bigs, since Al Buch or Bernie Simpson, the ones where we have their records, for me are Jorge Gutierrez and Jason Kidd. Jorge averaged about one steal, and Jason Kidd 3.5 steals per game. How you stop your man or help stop the other team from scoring is what is important, and stealing the ball is just frosting on the cake, IMO.

---

Agreed, but it's hard to quantify defense than by pointing to steals.

Of course, there's comparing the points the defender's man scores when he's being guarded by the defender versus his average. That requires a greater body of data than can be gleaned quickly from a single game.

Another quantitative metric could be turnovers by the offensive player when guarded by the defender, but that really only has value when compared to the number of turnovers the offensive player has in other games (or when or when not guarded by the defender). That, again, leads to the same issue of needing more data than can be gleaned in one game.

I think this may be why so many basketball players are so offensive minded, now: there are very few quantitative metrics for evaluating a player's defensive skills that really solely on the data available from one game. Contrast that with how points a player scores, which is much can be limited to just one game's data.

---

Then why try to quantify defense with statistics or metrics? I doubt that coaches use those when looking for a good defender prospect.

One reason why players are more offensive minded now is that the modern rules greatly favor the offensive player.

And most players have always been offensive minded, because there is much
more glory in becoming a great offensive player. If you can score, you will get playing time.

Pete Maravich was more idolized than KC Jones, but KC led Boston teams to NBA Championship Rings.

Steph Curry and Lebron are idolized today, but not Jaren jackson, Rudy Gobert, or Jrue Holiday.

Offense sells tickets, Defense not as many.

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Offensive metrics are generally more direct. Points scored are points scored. Assists are assists. However, there is no direct metric for setting a good screen. Indirect metrics capture some of that. Defensive metrics are mostly indirect but are reasonable <indicators> of possible good defensive players . A coach like Kyle Smith uses them to sort through hundreds even thousands of players to determine which players deserve closer scrutiny by watching video.

The other issue with defense is the longstanding belief among coaches that, as long as the player is sufficiently tall and athletic, defense can be taught, so coaches focus on bringing in players with offense skill sets. That of course sets up the challenge of trying to convince players who haven't played good defense in the past to <want> to play good defense, with various levels of "force" used in that "persuasion." Most "defensive minded" coaches adopted authoritarian methods and were strict disciplinarians. Some would come to a program with highly ranked players following a good recruiter (at UCLA Harrick following Hazzard, Howland following Lavin and yes, at Nevada Fox following Johnson or Fox following Felton at Georgia or Fox following Jones at Cal) that brings greater success initially but cannot be sustained as few top players will sign up for that. I think with the Portal it is even more so.

Thus, good defenders in the modern era either need to be recruited (they already have a defensive mindset) or developed through reason and persuasion. I do think Madsen has the right background and personality for such a strategy, even if we did not see much evidence of it this past season.