Madsen has his work cut out for him

3,363 Views | 27 Replies | Last: 7 hrs ago by southseasbear
Oakbear
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the three current new hires are all pretty raw and need a lot of coaching up ..

I hope that he can pull in 1-2 more that are more prolific scorers, but getting a bunch of new guys to play well together is no easy task ..

If what he has next year stick around for another year, he might have something going
concernedparent
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I believe these are rotation pieces or non-focal point starters. I like that they are high upside guys with two years of eligibility each. Now we might have to re-recruit them at the end of the year but easier to recruit the player you already know.
DaveT
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No doubt it's a challenge, but lots of programs are facing similar issues. I'm confident Madsen and his staff have a plan and would not have signed the recent recruits unless they felt they could contribute. My concern isn't Madsen, his staff, their plan, their ability to evaluate talent, or their ability to coach. It's NIL. If Madsen gets the NIL funds he needs (something we can all help with by supporting CALegends current fundraising drive), I think we'll be happily surprised at how well this team competes in the ACC this season.
Johnfox
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Stojakovic is Madsen's number one target. Sharavjamts is also one he wants badly. Both are playmakers that can score with high upside
concernedparent
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Johnfox said:

Stojakovic is Madsen's number one target. Sharavjamts is also one he wants badly. Both are playmakers that can score with high upside
Yes both high upside, but also unproven.
stu
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concernedparent said:

Johnfox said:

Stojakovic is Madsen's number one target. Sharavjamts is also one he wants badly. Both are playmakers that can score with high upside
Yes both high upside, but also unproven.
Same as Madsen. And Lyons. Should be an interesting ride.
bearister
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Are the cost of season tickets going to fluctuate each year based on portal success/failure?

Like the Oakland A's, a new roster to memorize each year.
Cancel my subscription to the Resurrection
Send my credentials to the House of Detention
I got some friends inside
Basketball Bear
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concernedparent said:

Johnfox said:

Stojakovic is Madsen's number one target. Sharavjamts is also one he wants badly. Both are playmakers that can score with high upside
Yes both high upside, but also unproven.
I will take the high upside with these two. I was hoping for Sharavjamts last year. He handles the ball well and looked good in running the offense. He likes to get his teammates involved. Looks unselfish. I was surprised he entered the portal.
dha
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It is disappointing that we could not do a better job of recruiting high school players this year. How are we going to build a strong core for the future otherwise? We don't have the wallet to compete for the top portal players that is quite clear. Tyson was a great get last year, but the odds of getting a first round draft choice to the NBA again are low. Our first season in the ACC is going to be challenging if not out right ugly.
calumnus
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dha said:

It is disappointing that we could not do a better job of recruiting high school players this year. How are we going to build a strong core for the future otherwise? We don't have the wallet to compete for the top portal players that is quite clear. Tyson was a great get last year, but the odds of getting a first round draft choice to the NBA again are low. Our first season in the ACC is going to be challenging if not out right ugly.


HS recruiting is generally a longer process than the transactional nature of the portal. A year ago Madsen was busy putting together last years' team, so jumping in late on HS recruiting for Cal (Utah Valley is a different pool). Moreover, Madsen can't take the time to develop players, he needed, and needs to make an impact NOW, to demonstrate upward momentum and be able to land top recruits. Finally, with the portal, there is a strong risk you lose players you develop just as they are fulfilling there potential. Worse is the risk you bring on somebody who takes a scholarship and roster spot for 4 years without getting off the bench.

All together, that tips the scale towards portal players at this time.

I am very confident Madsen will up his recruitment of HS players who really want to spend 4 years at Cal as time goes on.
concernedparent
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dha said:

It is disappointing that we could not do a better job of recruiting high school players this year. How are we going to build a strong core for the future otherwise? We don't have the wallet to compete for the top portal players that is quite clear. Tyson was a great get last year, but the odds of getting a first round draft choice to the NBA again are low. Our first season in the ACC is going to be challenging if not out right ugly.
How do high school players help in this day and age? They are unproven. And good prospects cost lots in NIL while unheralded ones often contribute nothing early on. And once they perform they'll get poached by other teams with big NIL offers anyway.
bearchamp
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Freshman can be very good and big contributors if given the opportunity. High school seniors often improve rapidly as their bodies mature, again, if given the opportunity. Lots of very good players are unheralded coming out of high school.
bearchamp
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Jeremy Lin is a food example.
bearchamp
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Good example.
oskidunker
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bearister said:

Are the cost of season tickets going to fluctuate each year based on portal success/failure?

Like the Oakland A's, a new roster to memorize each year.


I doubt they raise prices until we have a winning record


Go Bears!
concernedparent
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bearchamp said:

Freshman can be very good and big contributors if given the opportunity. High school seniors often improve rapidly as their bodies mature, again, if given the opportunity. Lots of very good players are unheralded coming out of high school.
Of course. In a world where productive players aren't poached mercilessly at the conclusion of each season, I would prefer to recruit predominantly around high schoolers. Good prospects that have high ceilings and P5 D1 level floors cost a ton of money already. The ones that don't cost a lot of money have low floors and unknown ceilings. Stars and recruiting pedigree aren't everything, but they matter. For every Jorge and Andre Kelly, there's a lot more Brandon Chauca's, Kaileb Rodriguez's, Deschon Winstons', and basically everyone Fox recruited. Our best players recruited from high school have been mostly highly sought after (Powe, Ryan Anderson, Patrick Christopher, Crabbe, Wallace, Brown, Rabb, Bird, Mathews, Matt Bradley, Justice Sueing, etc.).
concernedparent
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bearchamp said:

Jeremy Lin is a food example.
Damian Lilliard is an even better example. And if he played college in this day and age I just about guarantee you he would not finish his career at Weber State.
Gobears49
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concernedparent said:

I believe these are rotation pieces or non-focal point starters. I like that they are high upside guys with two years of eligibility each. Now we might have to re-recruit them at the end of the year but easier to recruit the player you already know.
Wonder what the transfer rate is in the NIL era is for basketball compared to pre-NIL rate. Personally, i love the pre-NIL years, as I like to not have to get to know as many new players. Also, hate to have more of my favorite players leaving Cal and have to learn about more new players coming in part (or mostly) because of NIL. I'm not a fan of NIL. Wouldn't it be great if it did not exist.
BeachedBear
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bearchamp said:

Jeremy Lin is a food example.
He's a Hot Dog
sosheezy
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BeachedBear said:

bearchamp said:

Jeremy Lin is a food example.
He's a Hot Dog
He does have an Ike's Sandwich - "Linsanity is a turkey sandwich outfitted with voodoo heat chips, Godfather sauce, Sriracha, havarti, and avocado"
Oakbear
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I'm not a fan of NIL. Wouldn't it be great if it did not exist.

wouldn't it be great if Ego and Greed did not exist .. or for that matter, war/famine/pestilence, etc

Gobears49
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Oakbear said:

I'm not a fan of NIL. Wouldn't it be great if it did not exist.

wouldn't it be great if Ego and Greed did not exist .. or for that matter, war/famine/pestilence, etc


I think it would be great if NIL did not exist and seemingly is the law of the land, replacing athletic scholarships.

Cal fans would not be happy if the amount of NIL for each college team were announced, as clearly Cal total football NIL would be left in the dust by most Southeastern Conference teams and many Big Ten teams.

In general, which teams are going to get the best talented NIL recruits? Most likely the ones with the biggest NIL budgets. I know there are ratings of the best recruits by organizations which rate sports recruits for football and basketball pn the basis of the sports prowess in those two sports which then can be compared to the list of relative school fan footba;; attendance. Normally, one would expect NIL payments by college football teams should correlate to relative team football attendance. For instance, I think Cal's average football attendance is dwarfed by the average attendance by the top teams in the most powerfull football conferences, which should correlate to NIL footbal payments made by those teams.

Would love to have others comment on what I have stated above and whether they feel NIL could be overturned as the law of the land relating to how rmuch football players are paid. I long for the days when college football players were largely compensated by flast per person football schoarships. I assume, but have not read, that athletic schlarships do not exist anymore for football and basketball by the big schools, as otherwise they would be doubly compensated -- NIL payments plus college scholarships.

I should point out that I have not seen any artricle covering this topic, which really is just a summary of how the flat per person payments to college players using the scholarship method compares to NIL payments and how NIL payments to the most popular teams in terms of their relatball footbal attendance changes how much players are paid in relation to football attendance of some other measurement.

I look forward to your comments.
barsad
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Yes, I think there will be legal challenges to NIL, but those challenges will not be about "overturning" NIL. More likely the lawsuits will seek to better define what forms acceptable student compensation will take in the future.

Personally I am hoping that the challenges focus on how far governing bodies can go in regulating payments to students. Right now there is zero acceptable regulation, it's the Wild West and the roster chaos we saw in the last few months is a result. The first thing the courts will have to acknowledge is that this "name, image and likeness" thing is just another name for "compensation for play", it was a convenient way to get around being uncomfortable with paying students for the work they do (playing basketball).

Pro teams, along with three pro players' unions, all agree that a salary cap is needed for a common good: competitive balance within a league. The same anti-competitive problem exists right now in the NCAA under the no-regulation NIL regime. So I see no reason that the same legal argument wouldn't work for D1 teams, who all face the same problem (i.e. only a few NIL-fundraising powerhouses will take all of the good players and crush the competition every year).

There are a lot of differences between pro sports and collegeā€¦. no players' union (yet) to make a deal with, a bunch of college presidents and NCAA executives who can't agree on what to order for lunch let alone hammer out an important labor agreement.
But with some leadership, creativity, good lawyers, backroom deals and/or a lot of time in court, reform can and should happen. But expect a 10-year process (or longer). I'm not looking forward to the next 10 years of roster musical chairs every off-season!
calumnus
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barsad said:

Yes, I think there will be legal challenges to NIL, but those challenges will not be about "overturning" NIL. More likely the lawsuits will seek to better define what forms acceptable student compensation will take in the future.

Personally I am hoping that the challenges focus on how far governing bodies can go in regulating payments to students. Right now there is zero acceptable regulation, it's the Wild West and the roster chaos we saw in the last few months is a result. The first thing the courts will have to acknowledge is that this "name, image and likeness" thing is just another name for "compensation for play", it was a convenient way to get around being uncomfortable with paying students for the work they do (playing basketball).

Pro teams, along with three pro players' unions, all agree that a salary cap is needed for a common good: competitive balance within a league. The same anti-competitive problem exists right now in the NCAA under the no-regulation NIL regime. So I see no reason that the same legal argument wouldn't work for D1 teams, who all face the same problem (i.e. only a few NIL-fundraising powerhouses will take all of the good players and crush the competition every year).

There are a lot of differences between pro sports and collegeā€¦. no players' union (yet) to make a deal with, a bunch of college presidents and NCAA executives who can't agree on what to order for lunch let alone hammer out an important labor agreement.
But with some leadership, creativity, good lawyers, backroom deals and/or a lot of time in court, reform can and should happen. But expect a 10-year process (or longer). I'm not looking forward to the next 10 years of roster musical chairs every off-season!



Right now NIL is mostly paid by boosters outside the school's budget as they used to under the table. A huge area for growth is players signing with agents and receiving "pre-payments" or loans based on speculation over their future NFL value. Cal can compete in this world. We have a large, wealthy alumni base. However, inevitably it will be pay to play outright and inevitably it will be players being paid from the school's media and ticket revenues. Both the law and competition will drive us there. (Cal will have trouble competing in that world as our media revenues are dwarfed by the rest of the P4)

I don't see it being remotely possible to have collective bargaining between hundreds of schools in one employer group and a single union that represents tens of thousands of players and prospective players, including many under the age of 18, who only have 4 years of eligibility before leaving the union. Moreover, many P4 schools are in "right to work states" that make union organizing virtually impossible. If you are the top player in the country you simply don't join the union, or quit the union, and if you are Alabama you don't abide by any salary cap. Any attempt by schools, conferences or the NCAA to implement a salary cap without collective bargaining will be struck down as illegal..

Thus, the only way I see to avoid "the Wild West" (unfettered, unregulated, free market competition) would be an act of Congress signed by the president, the easiest of which would be to give the NCAA antitrust immunity and the ability to regulate the market and institute salary caps.

However, I don't see Congress reinstituting "amateurism." As much as many older fans pine for a return to that era , it was based on a fundamental injustice and inequity, with schools making nearly $100 million in revenues while players essentially "got to go to class." Something that used to be nearly free at Cal and still is on other places in the world. On the other hand, who knows which way America's political winds will blow? There is a political movement that pines for the America of the 1950s so maybe a return to the days when athletes where unpaid will be taken up by them? The Supreme Court, however, seems to be very libertarian (on this issue at least, the opposite on others).
barsad
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Dartmouth refuses to work with basketball players' union, potentially sending case to federal court
https://apnews.com/article/dartmouth-basketball-union-b8a1f60322aca1208c6f5677b6bb8c8f
barsad
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calumnus said:


I don't see it being remotely possible to have collective bargaining between hundreds of schools in one employer group and a single union that represents tens of thousands of players and prospective players, including many under the age of 18, who only have 4 years of eligibility before leaving the union. Moreover, many P4 schools are in "right to work states" that make union organizing virtually impossible. If you are the top player in the country you simply don't join the union, or quit the union, and if you are Alabama you don't abide by any salary cap. Any attempt by schools, conferences or the NCAA to implement a salary cap without collective bargaining will be struck down as illegal.


I won't be waiting around for Congress to do anything useful.
Calumnus, what do you think about players unions by conference? Then you're just talking about a couple hundred students and 18 schools? The Dartmouth case could establish a right to unionize, or the reverse.
calumnus
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barsad said:

calumnus said:


I don't see it being remotely possible to have collective bargaining between hundreds of schools in one employer group and a single union that represents tens of thousands of players and prospective players, including many under the age of 18, who only have 4 years of eligibility before leaving the union. Moreover, many P4 schools are in "right to work states" that make union organizing virtually impossible. If you are the top player in the country you simply don't join the union, or quit the union, and if you are Alabama you don't abide by any salary cap. Any attempt by schools, conferences or the NCAA to implement a salary cap without collective bargaining will be struck down as illegal.


I won't be waiting around for Congress to do anything useful.
Calumnus, what do you think about players unions by conference? Then you're just talking about a couple hundred students and 18 schools? The Dartmouth case could establish a right to unionize, or the reverse.


Individual schools like Dartmouth can have unions, sure. The players will be able to negotiate for base considerations. Individual conferences may be able to achieve them, especially for players already enrolled.

However, what we are talking about is a salary cap negotiated by a union with an "owners" group as is done in the NFL, NBA and MLB. I don't see the incentive on the part of the players to agree to one and I don't see a legal enforce mechanism to keep schools, especially their boosters, compliant.

A top player agrees to go to Alabama and will receive payment from Alabama,compliant with the SEC salary cap, but boosters will "boost" that amount.

A nationwide union and salary cap is unfeasible because the revenues per school are so disparate. MWC schools make $5 million whike the B1G makes $70 million. The SEC would never agree. Even on a conference level, I don't think the SEC thinks "parity" is desirable. And as I said, many of its states have adopted "right to work" laws so a top player simply doesn't join the Union and gets paid whatever he can get.

The bottom line is there are too many actors with too many disparate situations, motives and financial incentives for it to self organize as the professional sports have.
southseasbear
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calumnus said:

barsad said:

calumnus said:


I don't see it being remotely possible to have collective bargaining between hundreds of schools in one employer group and a single union that represents tens of thousands of players and prospective players, including many under the age of 18, who only have 4 years of eligibility before leaving the union. Moreover, many P4 schools are in "right to work states" that make union organizing virtually impossible. If you are the top player in the country you simply don't join the union, or quit the union, and if you are Alabama you don't abide by any salary cap. Any attempt by schools, conferences or the NCAA to implement a salary cap without collective bargaining will be struck down as illegal.


I won't be waiting around for Congress to do anything useful.
Calumnus, what do you think about players unions by conference? Then you're just talking about a couple hundred students and 18 schools? The Dartmouth case could establish a right to unionize, or the reverse.


Individual schools like Dartmouth can have unions, sure. The players will be able to negotiate for base considerations. Individual conferences may be able to achieve them, especially for players already enrolled.

However, what we are talking about is a salary cap negotiated by a union with an "owners" group as is done in the NFL, NBA and MLB. I don't see the incentive on the part of the players to agree to one and I don't see a legal enforce mechanism to keep schools, especially their boosters, compliant.

A top player agrees to go to Alabama and will receive payment from Alabama,compliant with the SEC salary cap, but boosters will "boost" that amount.

A nationwide union and salary cap is unfeasible because the revenues per school are so disparate. MWC schools make $5 million whike the B1G makes $70 million. The SEC would never agree. Even on a conference level, I don't think the SEC thinks "parity" is desirable. And as I said, many of its states have adopted "right to work" laws so a top player simply doesn't join the Union and gets paid whatever he can get.

The bottom line is there are too many actors with too many disparate situations, motives and financial incentives for it to self organize as the professional sports have.

One challenge is jurisdictional. Public employee unions in California are regulated by California's Public Employment Relations Board. There are similar agencies in other states. Moreover, with Janus v. AFSCME, we pretty much have "right to work" in the public sector as employees cannot be required to join or even pay a fee to a union. In the private sector the National Labor Relations Board, not by state agencies, has exclusive jurisdiction.
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