It's 2003 all over again Cal Whacks the Pack game thread

5,901 Views | 120 Replies | Last: 4 days ago by HoopDreams
Civil Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
Although I question HD's notion that Powe could shoot, he absolutely played center at Cal.
HoopDreams
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RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
ok, Leon is a PF, so when is the last Cal center who could score, shoot, rebound, rim protect and defend?
RedlessWardrobe
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Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
Although I question HD's notion that Powe could shoot, he absolutely played center at Cal.
Not sure what team you were watching but when Leon was here we had three guys - Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, and Rod Benson (yep, that guy) that all played center. Leon was used at the 4. Now I admit, in some of the games, the way he rebounded might lead one to believe he was playing center, but it was not the case.
Civil Bear
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
Although I question HD's notion that Powe could shoot, he absolutely played center at Cal.
Not sure what team you were watching but when Leon was here we had three guys - Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, and Rod Benson (yep, that guy) that all played center. Leon was used at the 4. Now I admit, in some of the games, the way he rebounded might lead one to believe he was playing center, but it was not the case.
That would be Powe's junior season. Watching Cal basketball his other (frosh) season, the starting lineup was typically Powe, Tamir, Ubaka, Midgley, and Kately. The first center off the bench was Benson who averaged less than 10mpg.
RedlessWardrobe
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Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
Although I question HD's notion that Powe could shoot, he absolutely played center at Cal.
Not sure what team you were watching but when Leon was here we had three guys - Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, and Rod Benson (yep, that guy) that all played center. Leon was used at the 4. Now I admit, in some of the games, the way he rebounded might lead one to believe he was playing center, but it was not the case.
That would be Powe's junior season. Watching Cal basketball his other (frosh) season, the starting lineup was typically Powe, Tamir, Ubaka, Midgley, and Kately. The first center off the bench was Benson who averaged less than 10mpg.
Yes, that team was hard to figure out as far as positioning. I think Tamir was categorized as the "center", but he really played an outside game. I recall that I thought Kately was really going to be a star, but it didn't turn out that way.
Civil Bear
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<shrug>
HearstMining
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RedlessWardrobe said:

Civil Bear said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

HoopDreams said:

Johnfox said:



this is what a good center looks like. madsen needs to recruit a big like this next season
do you think it's easier to recruit to UNC than to Cal?

do you think UNC basketball has a larger NIL war chest than Cal?

recruiting 6-10 / 6-11 centers that can score, shoot, rebound and defend is not an easy task ... how many centers like that has Cal recruited in the last 20 years?

Powe and ???
Sorry to correct you HD, but Leon was not a center. You might want to brush up on your Cal BB history.
Although I question HD's notion that Powe could shoot, he absolutely played center at Cal.
Not sure what team you were watching but when Leon was here we had three guys - Devon Hardin, Jordan Wilkes, and Rod Benson (yep, that guy) that all played center. Leon was used at the 4. Now I admit, in some of the games, the way he rebounded might lead one to believe he was playing center, but it was not the case.
I never saw the pre-knee-injury (and pre-Cal) Leon play, but by the time he came to Cal, I'd guess that 70% of his offensive game was back-to-the-basket ie playing like a center. Even after the additional surgery and a year off to recover, he was more effective but I don't think his game had changed that much. In any case, whether the C was Hardin, Tamir, or whoever, when Leon had the ball, they got the heck out of the way.
RedlessWardrobe
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^
valid point. And very true.
concernedparent
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RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

HoopDreams said:

Sissoko maybe our MVP

Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



barsad said:

HoopDreams said:

yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
RedlessWardrobe
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concernedparent said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

HoopDreams said:

Sissoko maybe our MVP

Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



barsad said:

HoopDreams said:

yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
Normally I would agree with you. But watching our team, the roll man almost never rolls, and it doesn't look like our guys seem to space themselves correctly to do the other stuff. (Maybe I'm not seeing it, which makes me just as bad as the players - don't know for sure.)
HoopDreams
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I don't think our bigs have a lot of PnR experience but they often roll

Ball handler just rarely gets it to them

I complained about this problem with the Rabb team. Rabb was the prototype roll big but we almost never got it to him

When we did good thinks happened

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

HoopDreams said:

Sissoko maybe our MVP

Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



barsad said:

HoopDreams said:

yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
Normally I would agree with you. But watching our team, the roll man almost never rolls, and it doesn't look like our guys seem to space themselves correctly to do the other stuff. (Maybe I'm not seeing it, which makes me just as bad as the players - don't know for sure.)
Big C
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I've seen a lot of instances where we run the pick and roll and at least one of our guys (sometimes both) seems to be momentarily confused about what the best thing to do is.
HoopDreams
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Big C said:


I've seen a lot of instances where we run the pick and roll and at least one of our guys (sometimes both) seems to be momentarily confused about what the best thing to do is.


Yeah, they are learning
HearstMining
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HoopDreams said:

I don't think our bigs have a lot of PnR experience but they often roll

Ball handler just rarely gets it to them

I complained about this problem with the Rabb team. Rabb was the prototype roll big but we almost never got it to him

When we did good thinks happened

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

HoopDreams said:

Sissoko maybe our MVP

Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



barsad said:

HoopDreams said:

yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
Normally I would agree with you. But watching our team, the roll man almost never rolls, and it doesn't look like our guys seem to space themselves correctly to do the other stuff. (Maybe I'm not seeing it, which makes me just as bad as the players - don't know for sure.)

I think we're all pointing out aspects of the same problems with the offense:
  • Cal does a poor job of running the pick and roll. It's both the screener and the ball-handler's fault. Ball-handlers take bad angles and don't maximize advantage of the screen, screener doesn't always roll optimally and is generally ignored when he does.
  • Base-line cuts, off-ball screens, going back-door etc. are either not coached as part of the offense, or are not emphasized and therefore ignored by players during the game. I will say that Stoj did go backdoor and score once in the last game.

Bottom-line is that Cal doesn't have enough good offensive players to win by just going 1v1 as they generally do today. I doubt the players want to hear this, but like a lot of college teams, they need more deception, teamwork, and frankly sophistication in order to have a chance against the better teams. I wish the coaching staff would start earning their salary in this area.
concernedparent
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HearstMining said:

HoopDreams said:

I don't think our bigs have a lot of PnR experience but they often roll

Ball handler just rarely gets it to them

I complained about this problem with the Rabb team. Rabb was the prototype roll big but we almost never got it to him

When we did good thinks happened

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

RedlessWardrobe said:

concernedparent said:

HoopDreams said:

Sissoko maybe our MVP

Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



barsad said:

HoopDreams said:

yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
Normally I would agree with you. But watching our team, the roll man almost never rolls, and it doesn't look like our guys seem to space themselves correctly to do the other stuff. (Maybe I'm not seeing it, which makes me just as bad as the players - don't know for sure.)


  • Base-line cuts, off-ball screens, going back-door etc. are either not coached as part of the offense, or are not emphasized and therefore ignored by players during the game. I will say that Stoj did go backdoor and score once in the last game.



  • JOJ cutting backdoor is one of the most efficient actions we have. We've done it time and time again for a thunderous slam.

    It's probably both that the coaching staff isn't emphasizing off-ball movement and extra passes enough (or resetting for a better angle of attack), and that our guys are scorers first and get tunnel vision. At this point it's pretty clear most of the roster is most comfortable with the ball in their hands... Andrej and Wilkinson like to get to the rack; Blacksher, Omot, Campbell like to iso for a shot; JOJ likes bully ball.
    HoopDreams
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    Good post

    concernedparent said:

    HearstMining said:

    HoopDreams said:

    I don't think our bigs have a lot of PnR experience but they often roll

    Ball handler just rarely gets it to them

    I complained about this problem with the Rabb team. Rabb was the prototype roll big but we almost never got it to him

    When we did good thinks happened

    RedlessWardrobe said:

    concernedparent said:

    RedlessWardrobe said:

    concernedparent said:

    HoopDreams said:

    Sissoko maybe our MVP

    Defends, rebounds, scores… watch how the players react to him….i think he's the team leader

    Very tough to sign good bigs, and Sissoko is a very good big

    I don't get it… last year we had a strong scoring center who could hit 3s, and was an elite rebounder, but people complained about his defense

    Cal is very fortunate to have two good centers last two seasons



    barsad said:

    HoopDreams said:

    yes, he can improve his offensive moves, but so far he hasn't learned the footwork

    however you are right that Madsen is the perfect coach for him as Mark didn't have an NBA career from his athleticism

    some players can quickly learn these advanced moves, and then use them naturally, but most need to learn these skills over years before they can use effectively in games.


    Sissoko is 24 years old with 4+ years of Div 1 experience, almost all of that time playing for one of the best coaches in NCAA history.
    So let's not group him in with the 18-year-old freshmen who might still need time to develop moves. He's learned as much as he possibly can, and Madsen should have taken his limitations into account before he decided he was our No. 1 big man.
    I would much rather have a younger guy with more eligibility and the ability to learn how to score when he's further than dunk-range. That takes nothing away from his contributions on blocks, rebounds, etc. we just need to pick better next year. Dort is kind of the same problem if he's No. 1 next year, no moves, all size and blocks.



    Obviously I'd rather have both but I'd 100% rather have a strong defense only post than an offensive only post player. Rim protection and rebounding is more important than post offense, ESPECIALLY on a team with so many scorers and that plays 4 out. Mady is a bright spot and wish he had another year.

    Point of attack defense and rotations, and hero ball offense are the big problems with this team.
    Ah, our new favorite cliche. Reality is, when the scope of the offense that the coach gives to the team is restricted to just a weave and on-ball screens, (nothing much else), "hero ball offense" is exactly what you're going to see. It's not the cause, it's the result that comes based from what our offense is instructed to do.
    Patently not true. You can hit the roll man, run baseline cut actions, kick out and swing, etc. Most of our guys are just more comfortable in iso or attacking downhill looking for the finish only.
    Normally I would agree with you. But watching our team, the roll man almost never rolls, and it doesn't look like our guys seem to space themselves correctly to do the other stuff. (Maybe I'm not seeing it, which makes me just as bad as the players - don't know for sure.)


  • Base-line cuts, off-ball screens, going back-door etc. are either not coached as part of the offense, or are not emphasized and therefore ignored by players during the game. I will say that Stoj did go backdoor and score once in the last game.



  • JOJ cutting backdoor is one of the most efficient actions we have. We've done it time and time again for a thunderous slam.

    It's probably both that the coaching staff isn't emphasizing off-ball movement and extra passes enough (or resetting for a better angle of attack), and that our guys are scorers first and get tunnel vision. At this point it's pretty clear most of the roster is most comfortable with the ball in their hands... Andrej and Wilkinson like to get to the rack; Blacksher, Omot, Campbell like to iso for a shot; JOJ likes bully ball.
     
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