barsad said:

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calumnus said:

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As a senior he played center exclusively and attempted zero three point attempts all season. Also, Monty, post "the Shove" of Solomon's childhood friend Allen Crabbe (Solomon was the one holding Crabbe back from charging Monty), let DeCuire coach him in games (maybe practices too?) and nearly everyone was happy with the results.

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I just rewatched "The Shove" after you mentioned it, that was something.

Solomon showed leadership in grabbing Crabbe after Crabbe said, "Don't push me!" to Monty, then Cobb comes in and bear hugs him, sends him to the tunnel. Quick thinking by those guys or it could have really escalated.
I'm of two minds on the "tough coach" thing. God knows we don't need any more abusive Bobby Knights, but sometimes tough love works. Monty was trying to fire up Crabbe with some in-your-face attention, but he went too far. Monty was known for losing his temper. But I'm just putting it out there … could Madsen be a little "less nice" all the time? Sometimes players need "angry dad" to know when it's time to take leadership on the court, no?

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Having seen Madsen absolutely livid in games I guarantee he's not Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time in practice. Plus that's why you have a whole coaching staff to balance out personalities and skillsets.

concernedparent said:

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barsad said:

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calumnus said:

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As a senior he played center exclusively and attempted zero three point attempts all season. Also, Monty, post "the Shove" of Solomon's childhood friend Allen Crabbe (Solomon was the one holding Crabbe back from charging Monty), let DeCuire coach him in games (maybe practices too?) and nearly everyone was happy with the results.

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I just rewatched "The Shove" after you mentioned it, that was something.

Solomon showed leadership in grabbing Crabbe after Crabbe said, "Don't push me!" to Monty, then Cobb comes in and bear hugs him, sends him to the tunnel. Quick thinking by those guys or it could have really escalated.
I'm of two minds on the "tough coach" thing. God knows we don't need any more abusive Bobby Knights, but sometimes tough love works. Monty was trying to fire up Crabbe with some in-your-face attention, but he went too far. Monty was known for losing his temper. But I'm just putting it out there … could Madsen be a little "less nice" all the time? Sometimes players need "angry dad" to know when it's time to take leadership on the court, no?

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Having seen Madsen absolutely livid in games I guarantee he's not Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time in practice. Plus that's why you have a whole coaching staff to balance out personalities and skillsets.

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I don'tt think it is a Madsen personality problem. I think it is a philosophy thing and I think it has yet to really play itself out. 2 years is just NOT enough time.....

Again, I go back to Rod B's insights - that the style of both Offense AND defense that we are playing is VERY good training for the Pro game. That the jumps in Tyson's game last year and Wilkerson's and AS's game this year - in respect to their NBA prospects - is stunning. Rod (and Madsen) are far better able to observe that and comment on it than I.....though I am not sure either is well positioned to opine on whether that STRATEGY in combination of what is required of a cal Student athlete will work.

Thus what are the "KPI's"? Do BOTH AS and Wilkerson remain because both are going to get pretty big NIL deals dangled. If they do leave are they transfering to "winners" who play a lot more structured (and win focused) college programs (UCLA, for example) or are they making a lateral move to another NBA prepped focused programs.

PS. If you are not listening to that podcast I truly encourage you to.

In a nut shell the argument is that unlike a ton of programs we don't ask our guys to play a ton of zone and other defenses that are either illegal in the NBA or which are ineffective. NBA teams don't run stupid high ball screen action because the freaks in the NBA would just switch because Kevin Durant CAN stay with micro guards and teams would much rather have teams get 2s with mismatched post ups and come down and shoot threes. On offense we have a less structured and more one-on-one game because that is what the NBA also does - and while there is a LOT better ball movement than we have (and much better shooting) there are far less "set plays" and a lot more getting your guy to his "spot" than the College game.

He goes onto argue that _IF_ that Madsen's style is recognized by smart guys (you know, like an NBA father) and our guys (like Tyson or AS or WIlkerson) get drafted that it will be a snowball effect. I see this really as high risk and reward but because there is a sound internal logic to it I think it smart to get real world data before deciding if it is working or not.

socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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barsad said:

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calumnus said:

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As a senior he played center exclusively and attempted zero three point attempts all season. Also, Monty, post "the Shove" of Solomon's childhood friend Allen Crabbe (Solomon was the one holding Crabbe back from charging Monty), let DeCuire coach him in games (maybe practices too?) and nearly everyone was happy with the results.

---

I just rewatched "The Shove" after you mentioned it, that was something.

Solomon showed leadership in grabbing Crabbe after Crabbe said, "Don't push me!" to Monty, then Cobb comes in and bear hugs him, sends him to the tunnel. Quick thinking by those guys or it could have really escalated.
I'm of two minds on the "tough coach" thing. God knows we don't need any more abusive Bobby Knights, but sometimes tough love works. Monty was trying to fire up Crabbe with some in-your-face attention, but he went too far. Monty was known for losing his temper. But I'm just putting it out there … could Madsen be a little "less nice" all the time? Sometimes players need "angry dad" to know when it's time to take leadership on the court, no?

---

Having seen Madsen absolutely livid in games I guarantee he's not Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time in practice. Plus that's why you have a whole coaching staff to balance out personalities and skillsets.

---

In a nut shell the argument is that unlike a ton of programs we don't ask our guys to play a ton of zone and other defenses that are either illegal in the NBA or which are ineffective. NBA teams don't run stupid high ball screen action because the freaks in the NBA would just switch because Kevin Durant CAN stay with micro guards and teams would much rather have teams get 2s with mismatched post ups and come down and shoot threes. On offense we have a less structured and more one-on-one game because that is what the NBA also does - and while there is a LOT better ball movement than we have (and much better shooting) there are far less "set plays" and a lot more getting your guy to his "spot" than the College game.

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I agree with a lot of what you said but have a major quibble with one point. They run tons of high ball screen actions in the NBA. Especially in the playoffs where the half court offenses are just cat and mouse where you try to get an advantageous switch (good offensive guard on a less mobile big, or targeting the weakest defender generally).

I also think a lot of our deficiencies are recruiting and scouting issues. We had nearly an entire roster of low floor and/or low ceiling defenders. Our entire guard rotation was undersized and/or unathletic; of course we couldn't defend the point of attack. On paper we should've shot the 3 a lot better than we did, but there was a dramatic decrease in 3pt % for the guys moving up in competition.

concernedparent said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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barsad said:

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calumnus said:

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As a senior he played center exclusively and attempted zero three point attempts all season. Also, Monty, post "the Shove" of Solomon's childhood friend Allen Crabbe (Solomon was the one holding Crabbe back from charging Monty), let DeCuire coach him in games (maybe practices too?) and nearly everyone was happy with the results.

---

I just rewatched "The Shove" after you mentioned it, that was something.

Solomon showed leadership in grabbing Crabbe after Crabbe said, "Don't push me!" to Monty, then Cobb comes in and bear hugs him, sends him to the tunnel. Quick thinking by those guys or it could have really escalated.
I'm of two minds on the "tough coach" thing. God knows we don't need any more abusive Bobby Knights, but sometimes tough love works. Monty was trying to fire up Crabbe with some in-your-face attention, but he went too far. Monty was known for losing his temper. But I'm just putting it out there … could Madsen be a little "less nice" all the time? Sometimes players need "angry dad" to know when it's time to take leadership on the court, no?

---

Having seen Madsen absolutely livid in games I guarantee he's not Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time in practice. Plus that's why you have a whole coaching staff to balance out personalities and skillsets.

---

In a nut shell the argument is that unlike a ton of programs we don't ask our guys to play a ton of zone and other defenses that are either illegal in the NBA or which are ineffective. NBA teams don't run stupid high ball screen action because the freaks in the NBA would just switch because Kevin Durant CAN stay with micro guards and teams would much rather have teams get 2s with mismatched post ups and come down and shoot threes. On offense we have a less structured and more one-on-one game because that is what the NBA also does - and while there is a LOT better ball movement than we have (and much better shooting) there are far less "set plays" and a lot more getting your guy to his "spot" than the College game.

---

I agree with a lot of what you said but have a major quibble with one point. They run tons of high ball screen actions in the NBA. Especially in the playoffs where the half court offenses are just cat and mouse where you try to get an advantageous switch (good offensive guard on a less mobile big, or targeting the weakest defender generally).

I also think a lot of our deficiencies are recruiting and scouting issues. We had nearly an entire roster of low floor and/or low ceiling defenders. Our entire guard rotation was undersized and/or unathletic; of course we couldn't defend the point of attack. On paper we should've shot the 3 a lot better than we did, but there was a dramatic decrease in 3pt % for the guys moving up in competition.

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Fair.

We are 2 years into the experiment. year 1 was likely "take what we could get". I agree that in year 3 it will be important to bring in 1 or 2 (or 3?) guys that can defend at the point of attack or more high ball screens next year and i am not sure I won't throw something hard at my TV screen.

concernedparent said:

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socaltownie said:

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concernedparent said:

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barsad said:

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calumnus said:

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As a senior he played center exclusively and attempted zero three point attempts all season. Also, Monty, post "the Shove" of Solomon's childhood friend Allen Crabbe (Solomon was the one holding Crabbe back from charging Monty), let DeCuire coach him in games (maybe practices too?) and nearly everyone was happy with the results.

---

I just rewatched "The Shove" after you mentioned it, that was something.

Solomon showed leadership in grabbing Crabbe after Crabbe said, "Don't push me!" to Monty, then Cobb comes in and bear hugs him, sends him to the tunnel. Quick thinking by those guys or it could have really escalated.
I'm of two minds on the "tough coach" thing. God knows we don't need any more abusive Bobby Knights, but sometimes tough love works. Monty was trying to fire up Crabbe with some in-your-face attention, but he went too far. Monty was known for losing his temper. But I'm just putting it out there … could Madsen be a little "less nice" all the time? Sometimes players need "angry dad" to know when it's time to take leadership on the court, no?

---

Having seen Madsen absolutely livid in games I guarantee he's not Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time in practice. Plus that's why you have a whole coaching staff to balance out personalities and skillsets.

---

In a nut shell the argument is that unlike a ton of programs we don't ask our guys to play a ton of zone and other defenses that are either illegal in the NBA or which are ineffective. NBA teams don't run stupid high ball screen action because the freaks in the NBA would just switch because Kevin Durant CAN stay with micro guards and teams would much rather have teams get 2s with mismatched post ups and come down and shoot threes. On offense we have a less structured and more one-on-one game because that is what the NBA also does - and while there is a LOT better ball movement than we have (and much better shooting) there are far less "set plays" and a lot more getting your guy to his "spot" than the College game.

---

I agree with a lot of what you said but have a major quibble with one point. They run tons of high ball screen actions in the NBA. Especially in the playoffs where the half court offenses are just cat and mouse where you try to get an advantageous switch (good offensive guard on a less mobile big, or targeting the weakest defender generally).

I also think a lot of our deficiencies are recruiting and scouting issues. We had nearly an entire roster of low floor and/or low ceiling defenders. Our entire guard rotation was undersized and/or unathletic; of course we couldn't defend the point of attack. On paper we should've shot the 3 a lot better than we did, but there was a dramatic decrease in 3pt % for the guys moving up in competition.

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agree on both points: NBA lives on screen and roll, and screen and pop

agree that a lot of our defensive deficiencies are poor perimeter defense from undersized guards who weren't plus athletes

I would have liked to see more high traps from our bigs, but we started to do that a little late in the season. It had mixed results probably because it was new to our centers. It was frustrating that our bigs defended from such a low post enabling opponents to pull up for jumpers all day, but I think that was our defensive strategy to protect the rim and be in position for rebounds. Not sure that tradeoff worked, but I don't think it was because centers didn't know where to be